'Gunboat' to 'Gun Destroyer'

[Aurel Tristen]

Something I have wondered about...

As we know in Macross there are various gunboats ('houkan' - 砲艦). The Supervision, Zjentohlauedy and Meltrandi all have them. That phrase is specifically used for gunboats. Once in one of the PS/SS DYRL games we see houkan translated as gun ship (Millia's warship). However, with the release of the PS2 Macross game this designation magically gets changed to "gun destroyer", which appeared on screen in English. I wonder what prompted the change. What may also be an issue is it is still written in Japanese as 'gunboat' (砲艦). Wouldn't a more correct translation be 'houkuchikukan' (砲駆逐艦)? I know its not a [common] phrase used in Japanese though, I think destroyer ('kuchikukan' - 駆逐艦) should be should be included

[1st Border Red Devil]

Well....IIRC a gun boat in the traditional naval sense doesn't engage other capital ships. Gunship generally refers to a non-capital vehicle (usually a helicopter) as well. Perhaps people in the know decided that a term like Gun Destroyer worked better as both gunboat and gunship are really references to much smaller weapons platforms.

Edited July 27, 2004 by 1st Border Red Devil

[Tekkaman Blade]

Gun Destroyer just doesn't sound right to me.

[Jester]

Im wondering if it is perhaps their attempt to best explain the purpose of the ship. As its hardly a gunboat. Gunboats being (in a naval sense,) boats and not ships. The ships in question aren't quite destroyers, but are bigger than frigates. Maybe they are trying to find a way of pigeon holing them between the two without calling them cruisers.

[mechaban]

Maybe it destroys gunships?

[KingNor]

why not just call it a destroyer?

[1st Border Red Devil]

Cause Destroyers are capital escort vessels. That gun mounted inside its bow kinda takes it out of the escort role and more into the planetary bombardment category.

[Boxer]

Maybe it destroys guns???

It might be someone just misunderstood and put 'Gun Destroyer'. It's only a game, and there's bound to be some flaws. I don't think ia lot of thought was put into making every single designation for the Zent-Melt correct.

Maybe we should just call it a fleet monitor instead. A big gun and not much else is pretty much what a Monitor is...

[Anubis]

Maybe it was just an Engrish error?

[Final Vegeta]

Maybe it's pointless, but recalling "Super Dimension" as a play of words with "Hyper Space", "Gun Destroyer" seems a play of words with "Buster Cannon", which is the pre-production name of Macross Cannon.

FV

[Aurel Tristen]

Maybe it's pointless, but recalling "Super Dimension" as a play of words with "Hyper Space", "Gun Destroyer" seems a play of words with "Buster Cannon", which is the pre-production name of Macross Cannon.

Don't think that's it.

I believe Super Dimension is just a straight forward translation which could also be translated as hyper space.

超 chou : hyper- / super- / ultra-

時空 jikuu : space-time / dimension[al]

Of course, its also been translated as "A Fortress Exceeding Time and Space" Which I think sounds pretty neat. But anyways 'destroyer' is a class of ship and I just feel that it should be present in the kanji if it is going to be used.

[Zentrandude]

call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet

[Nied]

It's interesting that the official sources come up with terms like "gun-destroyer," when the most aplicable naval designation would be Monitor (a small ship of shallow draft with a large weapon or weapons usually used for coastal bombardment).

[maxjenius81]

Damnit, Nied beat me to it. I thikn monitor is the best description of the vessel as it is simply one big gun and thats it which is the classic monitor concept. Though I dont think montiros have been used by modern navies since the 20s or 30s. I know citing a Robotech source isnt always valid in Macross, but the RRG has been referring to that vessel as a monitor as far back as I can remember. So I say try not to take the source Kanji literally and instead go for the spirit of what they are trying to say. For instance the Japanese word for Submarine is Sensuikan which literally translated reads "War Ice Ship" I have no idea how to get submarine out of that, but thats what it is. Better yet, translate Cho Jikuu Yousai and see what you get, I guarantee its not Super Dimensional Fortress.

[JELEINEN]

Maybe it's pointless, but recalling "Super Dimension" as a play of words with "Hyper Space", "Gun Destroyer" seems a play of words with "Buster Cannon", which is the pre-production name of Macross Cannon.

Don't think that's it.

I believe Super Dimension is just a straight forward translation which could also be translated as hyper space.

超 chou : hyper- / super- / ultra-

時空 jikuu : space-time / dimension[al]

Of course, its also been translated as "A Fortress Exceeding Time and Space" Which I think sounds pretty neat. But anyways 'destroyer' is a class of ship and I just feel that it should be present in the kanji if it is going to be used.

"Super Dimensional" has the added value of a double meaning in English. It can mean "really big" in addition to "hyperspace." Never under estimate the ability of the Japanese for puns.

[Aurel Tristen]

Better yet, translate Cho Jikuu Yousai and see what you get, I guarantee its not Super Dimensional Fortress.

Actually you do... ^^;;

[Aurel Tristen]

After googling some Japanese site, I've found several that refer to gunboats / 砲艦 as being monitors / モニター艦.

Interesting....

[eugimon]

hmm, two thoughts...

1. it's kinda sad that the japanese reference the monitor more than americans do.. usually the monitor and her class are just foot notes to the civil war and period after.

2. in a way the Macross is like the monitor... it pretty much is a big gun with a ship build around it...

[Renato]

Better yet, translate Cho Jikuu Yousai and see what you get, I guarantee its not Super Dimensional Fortress.

Actually you do... ^^;;

Sometimes on some of the old-school merchandise for SDF (eg, pencil cases, notebooks) you would see "THE FORTRESS EXCEEDING SPACE AND TIME" written.

So that's another translation for ya.

[Jester]

You forgetting though Eugimon, that different Navies have different idea's about classes and naming conventions. For example te US Navy has lots of Frigates, Cruisers, (of a number of classes,) Destroyers, Carriers, gunboats, etc, etc.

The Royal Navy in comparison has NO cruisers at all. Plenty of offshore patrol boats, (Fishery Protection Vessels and Riverboat defence,) and lots of Type 22 and Type 23 Frigates, Type 42 Destroyers, three Aircraft Carriers, 1 Helicopter Landing Platform, (which Chinook pilots keep hitting the back of,) and a couple of Assault Ships, and about a dozen replenishment and supply vessels. But no Cruisers.

Although we used to use Cruisers during the 2nd World War. We even used to have monitors, but they aren't something we use anymore. Its evidentally not the case with the Japanese as they have stuck to methods that work for them.

Its odd though that the Japanese Navy would though, as almost all of their ships are repackaged US Navy ships.

SDF Website

http://www.jda.go.jp/e/index_.htm

JSDF Maritime Navy Ship & Equipment List

http://www.jda.go.jp/JMSDF/data/equip/index_e.html

And for those of us who can't read Japanese

http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/asiapac/japan.htm

Edited July 28, 2004 by Jester

[Boxer]

Hmm.....

The Macross is a Monitor, yet it carries fighters...

(CVA- Attack carrier + BM Monitor) CVABM? - Carrier Monitor?

[Final Vegeta]

Don't think that's it.

I am not serious about this

I believe Super Dimension is just a straight forward translation which could also be translated as hyper space.

But authors choose "fold" over "warp". Macross is filled with intended puns.

Anyway, IIRC at the beginning Macross was supposed to be a (cho-)"dokyu" (dreadnought) class ship, but the kanji dokyu was rare and was often misprinted, so they went for "jiku".

FV

[Jester]

True Boxer, but everything in the Macross series' and OVA's carries fighters. (Macross Zero not included though.)

They seem to have replaced the helicopters carried by all of todays naval ships from frigates to destroyers to carriers.

[Cdr Fokker]

True Boxer, but everything in the Macross series' and OVA's carries fighters. (Macross Zero not included though.)

They seem to have replaced the helicopters carried by all of todays naval ships from frigates to destroyers to carriers.

Not everything carries fighters. The UNS Oberth destroyers - seen briefly in SDFM - do not carry fighters, for one. The Zentradi Gunboat/Gun Destroyer, as seen in DYRL? also does not carry fighters.

Just pointing out that you can't make over-generalizations. Plus, what matters is what the craft is designed for; the fact that it may carry fighters is somewhat irrelevant (as your comparison to modern warships harboring rotary-wing aircraft - they house aircraft, but aren't classified as carriers because that isn't their purpose)

Besides, the Macross is a SDF, right? It's not a monitor or a carrier...

[ewilen]

I think many of you are going at it backwards. The Japanese designation, which hasn't changed, is almost certainly the best representation of the creators' meaning; the English translation is only that--a translation.

About the use of "monitor"--most monitors were incapable of operating outside of coastal waters and had to be towed if they were to move across the open sea. A few "seagoing monitors" were laid down during the war, however, and a few "modern" monitors were constructed in the 20th century which would sort of fit the ASS-1 type. These were mainly built by the Royal Navy; a list of them can be found here. Still later, the US Navy used "river monitors" in Vietnam--small single-turreted boats.

However, the type of ship really only fit a few niches--coastal bombardment or coastal defense, or in smaller sizes, river patrol. Moreover, the term "monitor" arguably applies not only to an operational role, but to a specific layout: a small ship with one or two large revolving turrets. So the term doesn't fit the ASS-1 very well, in my opinion.

If you do a search on the kanji 砲艦 you can get a general idea of what the Japanese term means, and indeed it's basically the same as the English "gunboat"--a small vessel carrying a relatively heavy armament, appearing in diverse forms at different times and for different purposes. Here is one example of a ship which a Japanese person would call a "gunboat": http://www.oceandictionary.net/mupy2.html and here is a web page devoted to the type of ship: http://www.down.ne.jp/ish/ijn/gbhist/ (I'd recommend using http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/ to translate. Use the second radio button option to translate from Japanese to English.) Interestingly enough, the most common appearance of the term in a web search is in the Japanese name for the Steve McQueen movie, The Sand Pebbles--in Japanese, it's called Gunboat San Pablo, referring to the ship on which the film takes place--a small patrol ship assigned to the Yangtze during the 1920's. (According to what I've found on the web, the ship in the movie is fictional, although it was based loosely on the USS Villalobos.)

Edit: also remember, we're talking about the Supervision Army vessel designated ASS-1, not the refit/reconstruction UNS ship, SDF-1.

Edited July 29, 2004 by ewilen

[Boxer]

I find it hard to belive that the ASS-1 did not have some contingent of small craft aboard. The only case where I can see this is if they expended their assault force or the ship was stolen without a force placed aboard.

And does Exedol specifically say this was a Gunship? And do we beleive Tv over games?

And about the Monitor thing: well, let's just say it has a lot of support weapons

yeah, an SDF is in a class of it's own. Otherwise it'll be VCVABM.

[Aurel Tristen]

Something to keep in mind is the role that this ship serves within the Zjentohlauedy Forces. We know, of course, the Zjentohlauedy have different ship types and requirements than our Earthly ships, but they aren't that much different. Despite what is shown in Macross II [for the Mardook], I don't believe that the standard battleship possesses a bow/ship splitting main gun. If you look at the TV series and DYRL, just before the annihilation of Earth's life you will see that only the ships that were firing were the gun destroyers and the Nupetiet-Vergnitzs-class command battleships (which according to the Gold Book were designed to capture mobile fortress-sized ships and that there were no records of it being used for anti-ship warfare). Also, in the TV just after the bombardment we see that screens in the command center at have images (profile and other views) of the gun destroyer up on them. So these ships are primarily used during planetary bombardment and large fleet battles (for heavy medium/long range attack).

[Gideon Krieg]

I assume we are speaking about the Rinadow Zentraedi type Gun-Destroyer.

I have seen this ship referred to as the Zentran monitor, Gunship, Gun-Destroyer, and Mobile Spacecannon.

Official designation according to Egan Loo;

Gun Destroyer

砲艦

Government: ZENTRADI

Ship Type: GUN DESTROYERS

Dimensions, metres: Approximately 1500 (length)

Main machinery: reactor.

Cannons: One main bow-firing energy beam cannon.

Programmes: This medium-scale gun destroyer is used in planetary bombardment and large-scale fleet-to-fleet engagement.

Egan Loo's site description of the ship apparently concurs with Nanashi's conclusions as well.

The ASS-1 is also listed as a Supervision Army Gun Destroyer.

The other designations are either mis-translations or US fan fiction (as in the case of "Space Cannon" or "Mobile Space Cannon".

Well there's my two cents.

[Aurel Tristen]

I assume we are speaking about the Rinadow Zentraedi type Gun-Destroyer.

I have seen this ship referred to as the Zentran monitor, Gunship, Gun-Destroyer, and Mobile Spacecannon.

Official designation according to Egan Loo;

Gun Destroyer

砲艦

Government: ZENTRADI

Ship Type: GUN DESTROYERS

Dimensions, metres: Approximately 1500 (length)

Main machinery: reactor.

Cannons: One main bow-firing energy beam cannon.

Programmes: This medium-scale gun destroyer is used in planetary bombardment and large-scale fleet-to-fleet engagement.

Egan Loo's site description of the ship apparently concurs with Nanashi's conclusions as well.

The ASS-1 is also listed as a Supervision Army Gun Destroyer.

The other designations are either mis-translations or US fan fiction (as in the case of "Space Cannon" or "Mobile Space Cannon".

Well there's my two cents.

"Rinadow" is made-up....

[Renato]

Don't think that's it.

I am not serious about this

I believe Super Dimension is just a straight forward translation which could also be translated as hyper space.

But authors choose "fold" over "warp". Macross is filled with intended puns.

Anyway, IIRC at the beginning Macross was supposed to be a (cho-)"dokyu" (dreadnought) class ship, but the kanji dokyu was rare and was often misprinted, so they went for "jiku".

FV

Yeah, you're right. Some merchandise did appear under the original banner, check out the kanji within the main Macross logo (old school version) in this pic.

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/collec...s/cell_rest.jpg

[Gideon Krieg]

"Rinadow" is made-up....

No way!

So its only real designation is Gun-Destroyer?

*Bows to Nanashi's Macross knowledge*

Thank you as always Nanashi.

[Druna Skass]

If it were up to me I'd call it a BFG Destroyer...

[nanashino]

Actually, the Macross is not a monitor or a carrier. It is a super dimension fortress (SDF). A late/ex- long-range firing-type gunboat [gun destroyer] which possess a fortress [cruiser-fortress] mode and an attack [storm-attacker] mode which has the ability to dock with space carriers [etc.]

-The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info/

Hmm.....

The Macross is a Monitor, yet it carries fighters...

(CVA- Attack carrier + BM Monitor)  CVABM? - Carrier Monitor?

180829[/snapback]

[the white drew carey]

But weren't these modes simply by-products of the human refitting of the ASS-1, therefore inconsequential in determining the original class designation it's builders had given it?

[Briareos9]

Multi-mission capability, which is a known staple of the Destroyer class?

A "battleship" like the Thuverl Salan isn't that much bigger at 2000 meters vs 1500 meters long relatively speaking. They probably could have just dubbed the things cruisers if they wanted, like certain destroyers in the US Navy. Of course, as they don't really work independtly of the fleet they're closer to the destroyer role.

It class is like the DD(X)/DDG-1000 Zumwalt, what's the problem?