Macross plus movie & oav

[Ensign Ichijyo]

Hi! New member here, and I want to ask you a question about Macross Plus.

I have recently purchased the DVD movie version released in the U.S. and I would like to know what are the differences among this version and the OAV.

What I heard is that the movie version has some improvements in the animations of some scenes, but some parts of the OAV misses.

Furthermore, is it worth to buy also the OAV?

Thanks

Edited July 25, 2004 by Ensign Ichijyo

[JB0]

First, yes it is worth it to have both. I don't really consider either version "complete".

And yes, the OVA has a lot more scenes.

Unfortunately, since they were essentially extending a movie-length script when they made the OVA, they had to find places to wedge the new scenes.

And frankly, while some of them were pretty nice, others cause very serious problems in the narrative.

Sure, I can suspend reality enough to allow for transforming jetplanes.

But walking away from a serious crash with just a few scrapes, then getting shot later with your own gun because someone loaded paintballs, then blanks, then real bullets so it would look like you were trying to kill him, if he got lucky and you didn't fire through the blanks? They stretch credibility WAY too far with that one.

Lucy also comes out as an insane stalker in the OVA.

And Isamu takes some crap from Guld that he has no reason whatsoever to sit there listening to.

All because they swapped a sex scene for a car chase.

[Final Vegeta]

then getting shot later with your own gun because someone loaded paintballs, then blanks, then real bullets so it would look like you were trying to kill him, if he got lucky and you didn't fire through the blanks?

The YF-21 has two gunpods. Maybe only one was loaded with paintballs.

FV

[JB0]

then getting shot later with your own gun because someone loaded paintballs, then blanks, then real bullets so it would look like you were trying to kill him, if he got lucky and you didn't fire through the blanks?

The YF-21 has two gunpods. Maybe only one was loaded with paintballs.

FV

Except Guld loaded the live ammo into the YF-19's gunpod.

[Panon]

Except Guld loaded the live ammo into the YF-19's gunpod.

The whole scene is bit of a mess.

It would have been literally impossible for the YF-21 to fire that gunpod at the YF-19 as the scene was presented anyway.

[Graham]

The opening fight scene in episode # 1 of the OVA, with the VF-11B team/squadron against the Zentradi powered armor is one of my all time favorite fight scenes and the main reason why I prefer the OVA to the movie.

Graham

[Graham]

Except Guld loaded the live ammo into the YF-19's gunpod.

The whole scene is bit of a mess.

It would have been literally impossible for the YF-21 to fire that gunpod at the YF-19 as the scene was presented anyway.

Yes, that scene is a little hokey, however it is probably technically feasible.

We don't really know enough about the design of the YF-19's gunpod or it's feed mechanism, but it is possible that the gunpod has a selectible feed mechanism and that it's magazine is designed to hold more than one type of ammo at once, which would be selectable at the flick of a switch to enable the pilot to chose the most appropriate ammo (e.g, Armor Piercing Incendiary, High Explosive etc), against the type of threat he is facing.

The YF-19's gunpod magazine appears to be quite large and seems to consist of the entire lower part of the shoulder stock (reference the scene when Isamu changes magazines), so it is conceivably big enough to allow 2 or 3 different internal ammo storage/feed paths within the magazine. In theory, given lax enough security, Guld could have loaded a quantity of live ammo into one of the magazines 2 or 3 internal feed paths and hacked into the gunpods computer, inserting a command to switch to live ammo when he sent the appropriate signal.

Just my theory.

Graham

[Panon]

Yes, that scene is a little hokey, however it is probably technically feasible.

It's not possible because the YF-21's right arm that had a grip on the gunpod was ripped clean off, meaning:

a) it would have had no way to pick up and aim the gun with that right hand, as the shot of Guld looking at the gun with the hand on it implied

b) the gun would be far beyond reaching distance of the YF-21's other hand since the plane was thrown far away from where the fallen gun and severed arm had fallen

[Jedi Knight]

I watch the movie edition JUST for Guld's extended fight with the Ghost/Sharon.

I own both versions, and love both. Yes, there are 'odd' events (see above posts) in the OVA, but on the whole, I like still like.

Oh yeah, and WELCOME to MW!!!

Edited July 26, 2004 by Jedi Knight

[Global]

I watched the movie first and thought it was great. A few years later I got the OVAs on DVD and really enjoyed the extra footage. So I have to agree with everyone in saying they're both great and there is no "winner"

[wolfx]

Didn't even came to mind about the wrongness of this scene.

Maybe Isamu reloaded the gun halfway through it....but IIRC, the gun ran outta bullets/jammed and then he used it as a club.

[Macross_Fanboy]

They are both worth it. Speaking of which, I gotta get the last volume of Macross Plus. The only thing I don't like about the original episodes is that they're a bit dark.

[Keith]

Well, if Guld could still fly the YF-21 after it was torn up by the Ghost, then he could also still probably use a detatched arm to fire a gunpod...

[eugimon]

use the force Guld?

[Ensign Ichijyo]

Oh, thanks.

So I think I'll get the OVA too.

[mcpaz]

hehe...

welcome to MW, and be prepared to say goodbye to all your money...

Manu

[Keith]

hehe...

welcome to MW, and be prepared to say goodbye to all your money...

Manu

No, that doesn't happen until you start to do crazy things like import the R2 movie edition since it has vastly superior video & audio quality

[Ido]

hehe...

welcome to MW, and be prepared to say goodbye to all your money...

Manu

No, that doesn't happen until you start to do crazy things like import the R2 movie edition since it has vastly superior video & audio quality

LOL now he' is going to buy that version

Goodbye money!

[Final Vegeta]

I have rewatched the scene.

It is not stated or shown that Guld used YF-19's gunpod. In fact, if Guld was staring at Isamu's gunpod, that doesn't prove that he actually used it, also considering the arm shown was severed from the YF-21 and his position shouldn't have allowed him to pick the gunpod up anyway.

The truth is that Guld was staring at that gunpod because it reminded Guld that he has not being using a gunpod of his from the beginning of the battle.

Guld started with punches and kicks, and Isamu mimicked with punches and kicks. When Isamu started to shoot at him, though, Guld simply blocked without trying to retaliate. This is the evidence the YF-21 had tricky gunpods, otherwise Guld would have used them.

FV

[wolfx]

I have rewatched the scene.

It is not stated or shown that Guld used YF-19's gunpod. In fact, if Guld was staring at Isamu's gunpod, that doesn't prove that he actually used it, also considering the arm shown was severed from the YF-21 and his position shouldn't have allowed him to pick the gunpod up anyway.

The truth is that Guld was staring at that gunpod because it reminded Guld that he has not being using a gunpod of his from the beginning of the battle.

Guld started with punches and kicks, and Isamu mimicked with punches and kicks. When Isamu started to shoot at him, though, Guld simply blocked without trying to retaliate. This is the evidence the YF-21 had tricky gunpods, otherwise Guld would have used them.

FV

But Guld didn't have the gunpods that would otherwise be attached to his fastpacks. Only guns he'd have would be the laser cannons on the head and his arms. And laser cannons can't be loaded with live/paint ammunition.

[Keith]

Actually, the loading of the ammo itself is shown going into the YF-19's gunpod isn't it?

[JB0]

I have rewatched the scene.

It is not stated or shown that Guld used YF-19's gunpod. In fact, if Guld was staring at Isamu's gunpod, that doesn't prove that he actually used it, also considering the arm shown was severed from the YF-21 and his position shouldn't have allowed him to pick the gunpod up anyway.

The truth is that Guld was staring at that gunpod because it reminded Guld that he has not being using a gunpod of his from the beginning of the battle.

Guld started with punches and kicks, and Isamu mimicked with punches and kicks. When Isamu started to shoot at him, though, Guld simply blocked without trying to retaliate. This is the evidence the YF-21 had tricky gunpods, otherwise Guld would have used them.

FV

Right. That's how Guld managed to accuse the YF-19 team of attempted murder during the hearings afterwards? Because the YF-21's gun was loaded with live ammo?

That's not how you play the innocent vicitm card, which is what he was doing.

He said Isamu was trying to kill him, and that's where the live ammo came from. And that the computers had no record of it being loaded because the YF-19 team had a master hacker.

It was a believable story, because the YF-19's gunpod had the live ammo, not the YF-21's.

And what Keith said.

[Final Vegeta]

But Guld didn't have the gunpods that would otherwise be attached to his fastpacks.

YF-21 doesn't require FAST Packs to attach his gunpods, but in the scene I think they were missing. I didn't note that. It would be strange that YF-19 had paintballs and YF-21 had nothing it was allowed to shoot with, though.

Well, it's been really long time since I watched Macross Plus.

FV

[JB0]

But Guld didn't have the gunpods that would otherwise be attached to his fastpacks.

YF-21 doesn't require FAST Packs to attach his gunpods, but in the scene I think they were missing. I didn't note that. It would be strange that YF-19 had paintballs and YF-21 had nothing it was allowed to shoot with, though.

Well, it's been really long time since I watched Macross Plus.

FV

IT had it's energy weapons, turned down to a non-dangerous power level.

[Graham]

The YF-21's two gunpods can be attached to the YF-21 in fighter mode either with or without the FAST packs fitted.

Without FAST packs fitted, they are stored semi-recessed in the leg bay cover panels (belly plates) in fighter mode. This can be clearly seen in the line-art circled '94.5' in the middle right panel on page 88 of the Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works book. Also, both the 1/144 scale Doyusha YF-21 toy and the 1/72 scale Hasegawa YF-21 model kit have the gunpods correctly semi-recessed into the belly plates.

Interestingly, neither of the two TIAS Macross Plus books feature that particular piece of line-art, which has led some people to the incorrect assumptions that either the YF-21 fighter could only carry the gunpods when the FAST packs are attached or that without FAST packs fitted, the two gunpods are stored completely internally inside the belly plates (an assumption I wrongly held until fairly recently).

In episode # 1 of the Macross Plus OVA, the YF-21 does not have the gunpods fitted, which is why Guld uses the wrist lasers to shoot down the drones. However, if you look closely at the YF-21 in episode # 2 during the aerial gunnery scene, you can see the gunpods semi-recessed into the YF-21's belly plates in fighter mode.

As the line-art of the YF-21 fighter mode without FAST packs but with gunpods fitted was not published until the end of 2001 in Design Works, I'm thinking this is probably why Yamato's original YF-21 toy which came out in 2000 did not have gunpods, as Yamato may have only had access to or seen the more common line-art, which shows the non-FP YF-21 Fighter with no gunpods.

Graham

[azrael]

Actually...I wonder if those gunpods caused a problem with the YF-21's design (which would be cured with the VF-22 and the guns being stored within those panels). Except for the live-fire tests, we rarely got to see the YF-21 with the gunpods.

or...

It could be that those gunpods were never really tested and was not on-time for most of the flight tests for the YF-21. Hummm....that could mean that the YF-21 was flying under weight most of the time.....that's not good...

[Final Vegeta]

I feel it was like Who shot Mr Burns?, there were these two solutions, even the studios didn't know which was the right one, and then authors accidentally mix them

According to Macross Design Works, YF-21 Fighter was ready in '93.11, while YF-21 Fighter with gunpods was not ready until '94.5 (without FAST Packs. FAST Packs came in '94.. Also the transformation was still officialized later, while the BDS design was yet ready by '93.11. By contrary YF-19's gunpod was finalized in '93.9.

I don't know the dates OVAs came out, but it would seem Kawamori finalized the designs only right before they were needed. That would explain why in the first OVA the YF-21 doesn't have gunpods and the transformation is not clearly shown (well, he chose not to show it clearly even later). Maybe at the time of OVA #1 and #2 Kawamori was still unsure at how a YF-21 with gunpods should have looked from near.

Maybe YF-21 was originally intended to have gunpods in that famous scene, but Kawamori couldn't design them with proper details so they shifted the scene centering in YF-19's gunpod with minimal changes to storyboard, and that's what creates confusion. If the gunpod was YF-21's, the scene as commonly intended would make perfect sense. Guld would not be required to be a better hacker than Gamlin, and he could still accuse Neumann of having accessed the facility network of another team (that would really require a hacker). He would still have played the innocent card accusing Isamu of plotting against him. Maybe it wouldn't have sounded believable enough, but Guld is still the most suspected due to his personal hatred, no matter how things went.

Someone said the first OVA of Macross Zero was late because Kawamori was unsure on the Battroid of the SV-51 (which in the first OVA was indeed hand drawn rather than CG). I don't know if it's true, but I think this kind of behind the scenes troubles could be plausible.

Then I came to conclusion that we were building wrong assumptions on wrong assumptions.

The first incident (the BDS one) showed that Guld didn't want to kill Isamu. He wouldn't have regreted his death, but he would not have killed Isamu in a dishonourable way. At least until his Zentradi blood started to boil. He should have devised his "trap" in cold blood, though, so his goal was not killing Isamu; and if it really was surely he would have find better ways than centering his plan on stealing enemy's gunpod, no matter how good his alibi would be. What would his purpose be, then?

**********

YF-19 fires a few paintballs.

*click* *click*

YF-19 peeks inside the barrel.

*BLAM*

"OMG, THEY KILLED YF-19!"

**********

I think what Guld really wanted was Isamu grounded. Expelled. Out of his way forever. He gave YF-19's gunpod live rounds because he wanted at least Isamu showed enough careless misbehaviours to have him out.

"Yer olde Gulde told ye, dat man's a jinx, Zents can smell them at two hundred feets away"

In fact, Guld surely had confidence in his skills. Lots and lots of confidence. I think the plan he devised really foresaw YF-19 shooting live rounds at him. That would have Isamu getting a court martial, which was good enough. Guld thought a calculated gamble. The first rounds were paintballs, so he knew it was time to get ready.

Only a twist of fate (so common in anime) made him firing the gunpod instead of Isamu. Stress regressed him to his Zentradi typical thoughts, so he fired. He still wasn't careless, though.

Why did the gunpod stop firing after the paintballs ended? Maybe there was a safe mechanism that, when something strange was happening inside the barrels (like a change of ammunition type) it would prevent the weapon to fire again unless the trigger is first released, to avoid incidents. Guld didn't thought of that, or he wished that Isamu kept firing, or at least switched ammo clip.

The only question now is the role of YF-21's severed arm. With a bit of logic the answer is easy:

Algus: "The YF-21 was built with a modular structure of self-contained units in mind so that, in the case a limb was chopped from the main body, it could still work following radio inputs. Actually, the limb could be detatched even by the pilot itself. We devised an exclusive powerful combat technique consisting in YF-21 losing an arm which, unseen by the enemy, crawls on the ground until it's able to seize one of his ankles and prevent his movements, and that's when YF-21 unleashes its final blow. This trick was inspired from a small earthly animal called "lizard", which is famous for purposely dropping its tail to foolish its predators and then catching them from behind."

Millard: "Actually that's a common misconception. Lizards don't retaliate. Not on Earth, at least."

FV

[JB0]

Maybe YF-21 was originally intended to have gunpods in that famous scene, but Kawamori couldn't design them with proper details so they shifted the scene centering in YF-19's gunpod with minimal changes to storyboard, and that's what creates confusion. If the gunpod was YF-21's, the scene as commonly intended would make perfect sense. Guld would not be required to be a better hacker than Gamlin, and he could still accuse Neumann of having accessed the facility network of another team (that would really require a hacker). He would still have played the innocent card accusing Isamu of plotting against him. Maybe it wouldn't have sounded believable enough, but Guld is still the most suspected due to his personal hatred, no matter how things went.

But with it as it is now, they at least have to acknowledge tha tit was the YF-19 carrying live ammo, and Guld had no interest in giving Isamu live ammo.

Combined with the fact that ISamu INITIATED HIOSTILITIES, it makes for a very convincing case.

If Guld's gun was the one loaded with live ammo, then the whole "Isamu tried to kill me" defense goes right out the window.

Then I came to conclusion that we were building wrong assumptions on wrong assumptions.

The first incident (the BDS one) showed that Guld didn't want to kill Isamu. He wouldn't have regreted his death, but he would not have killed Isamu in a dishonourable way.

Not really. It shows Guld would relish the opportunity, and that very likely the only thing stopping him was legal issues. He was grinning his head off at the idea of crushing Isamu's body into a bloody pulp under his VF's wreckage.

The only question now is the role of YF-21's severed arm. With a bit of logic the answer is easy:

Algus: "The YF-21 was built with a modular structure of self-contained units in mind so that, in the case a limb was chopped from the main body, it could still work following radio inputs. Actually, the limb could be detatched even by the pilot itself. We devised an exclusive powerful combat technique consisting in YF-21 losing an arm which, unseen by the enemy, crawls on the ground until it's able to seize one of his ankles and prevent his movements, and that's when YF-21 unleashes its final blow. This trick was inspired from a small earthly animal called "lizard", which is famous for purposely dropping its tail to foolish its predators and then catching them from behind."

Where is the logic in that?

It's just more if the retarded fanboy fantasies you spew at every opportunity, most of which are completely unworkable.