Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

[Uxi]

If you pretend 10 years were between Ep 2 and Ep 3 it makes the age thing a bit easier.

Besides, a 10 Clone War is much more epic than a 3-year one...

[Jolly Rogers]

And the contents of the bonus DVD from Wal-Mart are?

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2 half hour episodes hosted by the 2 droids (actually C3PO, since we don't understand what R2D2 says). C3PO basically summarizes episodes 1 & 2 in the Story of Anakin Skywalker and the OT in the Story of Luke Skywalker. Both episodes were copyright 2004 and the clips from ROTJ shows Sebastian Shaw in the end celebration scene, so it was produced before the OT DVD box came out. Not sure if they were broadcast anywhere in 2004 though. The 2 episodes were produced in pan & scan, not widescreen, even with the clips from the films.

There was a number of bickering moments between C3PO and R2D2 in between the clips, which was entertaining. As for the clips themselves, it was a collection of some of the best moments from the films.

[Zor Primus]

Easter Egg for the Episode 3 DVD:

On Disc 1 get into the Options Menu and enter 1138.

Yoda busts a rap and break dances.

This isnt an easter egg, but its pretty scarry nonetheless!

Edited November 22, 2005 by Zor Primus

[myk]

I'll........pass......

[ComicKaze]

Episode III made me realize I should never ever watch anything Star Wars ever again.

To think that everything culminated in this horrible crap and that was Lucas' vision makes me feel sick about the entire series.

Episode III has turned me off Star Wars forever.

[Black Valkyrie]

I changed my mind

Edited January 31, 2006 by Black Valkyrie

[Duke Togo]

[Agent ONE]

346884[/snapback]

Don't worry man... Fanboys actually don't have a soul, so on Judgment day, they will blow away like leaves in the wind.

[Sumdumgai]

Judgement day is in 2012.

The survivors of the zentran attack will have called the war judgement day. The only survivor will be Arnold the Guvernator, and we'll find out he's really The Terminator.

[Duke Togo]

Ok, something interesting that fits in around where this thread left off...

According to the official chronology, Obi Wan was 57 at the time of his death. Alec Guinness was 62 at the time of the filming of the original Star Wars. Not as much of a stretch as we thought it was.

[myk]

Well, that's one continuity issue they don't have to worry about..

[Duke Togo]

Some more age comparisons...

Shelagh Fraser, who played Aunt Beru, was 54 at the time of filming. Phil Brown, who played Uncle Owen, was 60. As seen in Episode III, Bonnie Piesse (Beru) was 21, and Joel Edgerton (Owen) was 30.

Being that they are 19 years between III and IV, you are looking at 40 years and 49 years, respectively. That's where the real age discrepancy is. Even with the reasonable aging effects of the environment, that's pushing it.

[Sundown]

I'm curious whether Obi's age comes from before the PT's were made. In either case, the real problem is that Obi/McGuiness in ANH looks heck of a lot older than 57, and Ewan McGregor looks young for 38, the age he should have been in Episode 3.

With McGregor 4 years younger than he should be, and McGuiness 5 years older than he should be, and with one actor who tends to look young for his age and another that looks a tad older, we've got a 10-15 year visual discrepancy.

I admit they did a decent job makeup wise in Sith, and I can buy that McGregor's character is 38, but that's still a young 38, and they've got McGuiness looking 65-70 in ANH. In the end, it just feels "off", and it's hard to believe someone who looks like McGregor at the end of Ep III can look so much older in 19 years time.

The biggest problem is that Sebastian Shaw was 78 when he played Vader/Anakin in ROTJ. They did an astounding job makeup wise, and he looks to have the posture, energy, and poise of a man in his 50-60's for those few moments we (no longer) see him as a Jedi ghost, and he even looks younger than 78 as Pastyvader. Even so, he's supposed to be 45 when he dies in ROTJ, and it's another visual stretch for someone who looks like Anakin in Sith (who also has young-ish features) to look as old as Shaw in 24 years time. There's a 30 gap between the actors that's still noticeable, even with the years erased by makeup, and I keep thinking that Lucas would have been better off either starting EPI earlier or making his characters older in the PT.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Sundown

[Hurin]

It's really very simple. Originally, Lucas had an entirely different vision of what took place before the Original Trilogy (OT). He had a totally different vision of who his characters were as well. He's now just squeezing and altering things to fit into the story he would rather tell (the Prequels) now, a quarter-century later.

His tastes, sensibilities, and motivations have changed. And he apparently felt constricted by the characters, chronology, and fictional history he set down a long time ago as a much younger man.

Things make a lot more sense when people just accept this rather than trying to make everything fit. Lucas tells different stories nowadays. My only problem is that he likes to try the Jedi Mind Trick on everyone and simply assert that this current vision is how he always intended things (Vader as a pathetic henchman rather than bad-ass villain, etc.).

[Duke Togo]

In either case, the real problem is that Obi/McGuiness in ANH looks heck of a lot older than 57,

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Except he wasn't. He was only 62. Unless you have figured out some way that Lucas has tinkered with Guinness's birth date, thereby ruining his childhood as well.

[Duke Togo]

My only problem is that he likes to try the Jedi Mind Trick on everyone and simply assert that this current vision is how he always intended things (Vader as a pathetic henchman rather than bad-ass villain, etc.).

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Oh, you mean like Vader taking orders from Tarkin?

Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Duke Togo

[Sundown]

Except he wasn't. He was only 62. Unless you have figured out some way that Lucas has tinkered with Guinness's birth date, thereby ruining his childhood as well.

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Point was that Guinness appears considerably older than 57 in ANH. He looked a tad older than 62 even, but it could have been partly due to the robes. Yes, he was "only" 62, but at that age, but even five years can make a big difference in appearance, and he really doesn't look like someone in his mid-late 50's. Suspension of belief and everything, I guess.

[Hurin]

My only problem is that he likes to try the Jedi Mind Trick on everyone and simply assert that this current vision is how he always intended things (Vader as a pathetic henchman rather than bad-ass villain, etc.).

365634[/snapback]

Oh, you mean like Vader taking orders from Tarkin?

Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash.

365637[/snapback]

Being the Star Wars geek that you are, you should know that he was there to make sure Tarkin didn't go "off the reservation" with the Death Star.

As for Leia's insult. . . it's just that, an insult. And I'm not sure how Vader not out-ranking Tarkin makes him a "flunky" and a "pathetic henchman." If you think that's the image he had in Empire Strikes Back then I can't help you.

Here's Lucas himself on how he now sees Vader:

GL:  . . . So it's even more tragic, because he's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky.

Q: He's not Satan, he just goes down to the corner and gets Satan's cigarettes.

GL: You got it. And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

Now, I realize that you're part of the "Lucas craps pure gold" crowd. But, if you really think that Lucas always intended us to view Vader this way, then you're just waaay too far gone into fanboyism for anyone to help you.

Come to think of it, we've discussed this before. And it didn't go well for your point of view. Though, your one or two sentence attempts at blustering your way into a cogent argument were entertaining. Tell me, is this you "playing your Togo persona" again?

Post after post from that point on make the argument for a "changed view" of Vader (to my mind) largely unassailable. And you yourself appeared to give up on your take on the issue. Having said that, this is as good a summary as any:

[Duke Togo]

Except he take orders from Tarkin in the original film.

If owning the 6 films on DVD and growing up in the Star Wars generation makes me a "Star Wars Geek", well, I guess I'm guilty.

Now, I realize that you're part of the "Lucas craps pure gold" crowd. But, if you really think that Lucas always intended us to view Vader this way, then you're just waaay too far gone into fanboyism for anyone to help you.

You realized wrong. Being that you're part of the "his hands are too small" crowd, I know there is little chance to reason with you. And you might want to go back a bit in this thread, and read what I was actually saying instead of assuming.

The fact still remains, Guinness was 62, no matter how old you thought he looked.

[Poonman]

Episode III made me realize I should never ever watch anything Star Wars ever again.

To think that everything culminated in this horrible crap and that was Lucas' vision makes me feel sick about the entire series.

Episode III has turned me off Star Wars forever.

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strange.. Ep. III is what made me get back into Star Wars... the light of the force you could see in Yoda's eyes as he fought back Sidious' Sith lighting gave me gooseflesh.

You realized wrong. Being that you're part of the "his hands are too small" crowd, I know there is little chance to reason with you. And you might want to go back a bit in this thread, and read what I was actually saying instead of assuming.

The fact still remains, Guinness was 62, no matter how old you thought he looked.

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the time after Ep. III was also an extremely dark age. besides Yoda, Obi was the only Jedi in the Galaxy. the strength of the dark side was sucking the life out of him AND Yoda. its why they both age considerably and died in Ep. IV and V.

[JsARCLIGHT]

While this contributes nothing to this conversation when I was a wee child in the late seventies and saw star wars for the first time I thought Obiwan was over 100 years old. His mannerisms, the way he moved and his overall aura to me (then) was that of an old, tired man. Then in Empire we are introduced to Yoda, yet another really, really old, tired jedi. Then when they pull Vader's hat off we see that he is yet another really, really old crusty man. When I was a kid watching these movies they gave me the impression that the last of the jedi (not counting Luke) where all 100+ year old geezers who where barely clinging to life. And when the princess calls Obiwan "General Kenobi" I assumed that anyone who held the rank of general was a grey-haired old war horse in their 50's rather than someone in their 30's... and if that was him in the clone wars then he must be really old now... or at least that was my little 8 year old kid logic then.

[Hurin]

Except he take orders from Tarkin in the original film.

Addressed. And you've ignored it and simply re-stated. Typical.

You realized wrong. Being that you're part of the "his hands are too small"

You're thinking of someone else.

And you might want to go back a bit in this thread, and read what I was actually saying instead of assuming.

Already did. All of it actually. And your points were as unsubstantial and incoherently argued as ever. You knew it then, and you know it now. . . which is why you are still making vague assertions with no logical support underpinning them to this day.

The fact still remains, Guinness was 62, no matter how old you thought he looked.

Uh. Okay. But I never discussed actor ages or based any assertions on them. So, again, you're thinking of someone else. But it is merely fact that the chronology and the appearance of the characters between the OT and the PT has troubled nearly everyone. Yes, even fanboys like you who are desperate to dismiss anything that might seem odd while labeling anyone who notices such things as "fanboys" yourselves or "the tiny hands brigade."

Of course, someone should point out to you that it is somewhat lame to use the ages of actors to guage the age of characters. Movies use these things called "makeup" and "lighting". . . and actors often play characters whose age is dramatically different than their own, often without the need for makeup or prosthetics.

But, I don't want to be the one to point this out to you since you seem to think you have a point. And I think it's cute.

H

[Sundown]

The fact still remains, Guinness was 62, no matter how old you thought he looked.

365666[/snapback]

And here I thought the important thing was how things actually come across on film, how things are portrayed, how that makes or breaks immersion, rather than the actual birthdate of a particular actor.

If we have to reference an actor's age when things don't look right to us on screen-- because it's hard to believe Obi-wan in EpIII could look like Obi-wan in ANH in a mere 19 years-- I dare say that something's amiss. A more mature looking Obi-wan in EpIII would be expected if we are to accept the way he looks in EpIV.

Anyhow, "The fact remains", Sebastian Shaw who played Pastyvader was 78, when Vader was supposed to be 45 (an age likely given to him retroactively while the PT was being made). If we're going to be throwing the force of real actor ages around like that, then we have to take massive issue with Anakin's casting, Lucas's storytelling, and the believability of the PT altogether, considering that Anakin's "now the main character".

Of course, I have no problem with an actor's age so long as their portrayal of a role is convincing. On the flip side, an actor's age doesn't placate me if things just look off from a continuity and storytelling standpoint.

[Duke Togo]

Hey, the age thing is a problem, I believe I stated that months ago (along with a few posts up). My only point was that we were all a bit off using Obi Wan as an example, as the character's age (57) and the actor's age (62) were close enough to be reasonable.

Beru, Owen, & Anakin remain problems. As I said months ago, the Seven Samurai template would have been an obvious choice for Lucas to base the prequels on, I really think he missed the boat there. Starting off with a 10 year old boy (or however old he was) threw off the entire age continuity.

So, the Seven Samurai... you could easily turn the peasant/bandit conflict into the Clone Wars (which should have taken up the entire Trilogy). The forbidden relationship between the peasant girl and the young samurai could easily have been Padme and Anakin.

Now, you take the Magnificent Seven path, and combine the Kikuchiyo and Katsushiro characters into one. He becomes Anakin. He idolizes the leader, now a more appropiately older Obi Wan, and is reckless in his attempts to prove himself. His lack of control and his penchant for following his emotions lead to his downfall.

And, in this version, he truly does kill Padme.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Duke Togo

[Matt Random]

JsARCLIGHT, I felt the same way when all we had were the original three movies. I believed the Jedi to be a group of warriors that hadn't been around for quite a while. I never would have thought that Jedi were plentiful just 20 years back. The way Han talks you would think they've been gone for a while but the truth is that anyone in their 30s may have very well seen a Jedi in person or at least on the news.

I envisioned the Clone Wars as a great conflict that happened long ago. Turns out that the Clone Wars were more recent in ANH than the Vietnam War is for us now. I realize that the dialogue does imply that the Clone Wars weren't all that long ago. Leia says that Obi-Wan fought with her father in the Clone Wars. I guess I envisioned her father to be someone who was the same age as Ben appeared (which I always thought of as someone in his 80s or 90s). Sure, that is pretty old to have a 19 year old daughter, but she was adopted after all and I was just a silly kid.

I do think of the characters differently now that we know the whole story. My opinion on many of the characters isn't as good as it was whereas my opinion on the Emperor, a character who wasn't all that interesting in the OT, has been elevated greatly.

[Agent ONE]

Vader is now a more interesting character as a result of the prequels, drink the punch Hurin.

[Keith]

All character age problems can be blamed on Tatooine, severe burns, & the Sith.

Tatooine - Harsh Desert Planet: Owen, Beru, & Obi Wan's appearance can all be easily attributed to harsh sun, dry climate, and tons of sand. Hell, take a look at Clint Eastwood, the toll of filming those Spaghetti Westerns really tore him up in his old age.

Anakin - A combination of severe burns, and the mutilation that the Dark Side causes would easily attribute to his appearance too.

As for Vader, I'll give Lucas the benefit of the doubt, and say he did always at some point intended Vader to be a vulnerable character. His actions at the end of Jedi wouldn't make sense otherwise. Take a look at the scene in Sith where Anakin has to make a decision about whether or not to help out Mace. It fits near perfectly symetrical with the scene in Jedi where he faces the same decision about whether or not to help Luke.

I was as dissaponted with Eps I & II as much as the next guy, but episode III did succeed in bringing everything toegher for me. Though I'll agree it makes no sense at all casting Anakin so young in I.

[yellowlightman]

I was as dissaponted with Eps I & II as much as the next guy, but episode III did succeed in bringing everything toegher for me. Though I'll agree it makes no sense at all casting Anakin so young in I.

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Ultimately Episode III made me realize how utterly pointless the first two prequels were. Episode I literally served no purpose other than introducing Anakin during two hours of boring acitivty no fan really cared or cares about. Lucas would have been much better off focusing on Anakin later in life, because other than Episode III the prequels had no effect on the Original Trilogy. They certainly weren't wortwhile entertainment by themselves, either.

[myk]

Well, at least in Episode II there were plenty of scenes with Anakin rolling around in the grass...

[Hurin]

All character age problems can be blamed on Tatooine, severe burns, & the Sith.

I'm beginning to see what A1 sees in you.

[yellowlightman]

All character age problems can be blamed on Tatooine, severe burns, & the Sith.

I'm beginning to see what A1 sees in you.

365780[/snapback]

Hey, let's keep this PG-13, love birds.

[Sumdumgai]

I liked Qui-gon Jinn in Episode I. Although I liked Liam Neeson in Batman Begins better, because his character seemed like an evil Qui-gon.

Darth Maul was great for fight scenes, but was just a disposible character with only a few lines of dialogue.

I liked that we got to see a bunch of Jedi fighting in Episode II. But they all looked retarded and lame. Got to see Yoda go from the tired little old force user, to going ape-s**t insane on Dooku with a lightsaber. That got the whole audience screaming and cheering. One of the funniest comments I heard about it: "Oh man! Yoda made Jet Li look like Mike Tyson!"

What bugs me with the prequal trilogy is that Lucas keeps saying that this is the Golden Age for the Jedi. But the impression I get from Episode I and II is that things are already winding down, they're stagnating and becoming too arrogant and sure of themselves and are losing what it was that made the Jedi great and powerful. Then in Episode III, they get owned badly by the clones. Most without even putting up a fight. Okay thre can be arguments about them not being able to tell because of some force difference in the clones, or the way the clones were engineered and raised, or because of the dark side clouding the future... But it just seems that the Jedi who were supposed to be so great and powerful, were a bunch of noobs...

Darth Sidious took down three MASTERS in under 30 seconds. Jedi got Owned!

[Chewie]

Except he take orders from Tarkin in the original film.

If owning the 6 films on DVD and growing up in the Star Wars generation makes me a "Star Wars Geek", well, I guess I'm guilty.

Now, I realize that you're part of the "Lucas craps pure gold" crowd. But, if you really think that Lucas always intended us to view Vader this way, then you're just waaay too far gone into fanboyism for anyone to help you.

You realized wrong. Being that you're part of the "his hands are too small" crowd, I know there is little chance to reason with you. And you might want to go back a bit in this thread, and read what I was actually saying instead of assuming.

The fact still remains, Guinness was 62, no matter how old you thought he looked.

365666[/snapback]

Pwnt.

[trueblueeyes]

All character age problems can be blamed on Tatooine, severe burns, & the Sith.

I'm beginning to see what A1 sees in you.

365780[/snapback]

Hey, let's keep this PG-13, love birds.

365784[/snapback]

[CoryHolmes]

Episode I literally served no purpose

365769[/snapback]

That's the unfortunate opinion most have. I see Episode I as introducing all the backstory, the setting, and the characters that would be later expanded upon in the the following five films. Ep I established that the Jedi had been virtually unchallenged in over a millenium; that the Republic was old and rotten to such a degree that when an innocent world was invaded, the official reaction was, "Let's form a committee and discuss what should be considered as an appropriate response" instead of actually doing something; and it established that the Sith weren't nearly as pasted as the dogmatically Ivory Tower Jedi thought.

Yes, Jake Lloyd will forever be remembered as being whiny and irritaiting, Jar Jar will always be mentioned in the same breath as a mouthful of spit, and Darth Maul will be remembered as "that cool two-blade guy". But when you look past the flash and glitz, you can see the groundwork for the whole SW universe being presented.

What bugs me with the prequal trilogy is that Lucas keeps saying that this is the Golden Age for the Jedi. But the impression I get from Episode I and II is that things are already winding down, they're stagnating and becoming too arrogant and sure of themselves and are losing what it was that made the Jedi great and powerful. Then in Episode III, they get owned badly by the clones.

For me, that's the best part about the PT. The Jedi were arrogant and dogmatic and inflexable in their unchanging ways, and it got them pasted. Their laws and policies may have had some practicality in the preceeding millennia, but were just so out of touch with the modern galaxy that they were an anachronistic blight that did more harm than good.

The one thing the PT did the best for is making a case for the Empire's existance. Sure, the Empire was mean, nasty, cruel, vicious, and rotten; but was the Old Republic any better?