Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith

[Hurin]

I see Episode I as introducing all the backstory, the setting, and the characters that would be later expanded upon in the the following five films.

I thought that's what the yellow text crawling up the screen was for!

But when you look past the flash and glitz, you can see the groundwork for the whole SW universe being presented.

Part of the charm of the original movies was that so much of its history and background were only vaguely referred to and left to the imagination. Tolkien, of course, did this as well. And he too worried that to go back and fill in the details of the "far off mountains with deep roots, only barely glimpsed from afar" was to destroy the magic of them. Whereas I don't think The Silmarillion ruins the "magic" of The Lord of the Rings, I think the prequels did affect much of the "magic" that one sensed while watching the OT because they were handled so poorly. Heck, one could say Lucas even set out to consciously remove the magic from the series literally with his conversion of the Force into a semi-biological thing.

For me, that's the best part about the PT.  The Jedi were arrogant and dogmatic and inflexable in their unchanging ways, and it got them pasted.  Their laws and policies may have had some practicality in the preceeding millennia, but were just so out of touch with the modern galaxy that they were an anachronistic blight that did more harm than good.

Hmmm, that's odd. I thought they got "pasted" (I can't believe we're using Jar-Jar's favorite word) because the Lord of the Sith masterminded their downfall. How, exactly, did they cause their own downfall? By not giving in to the whims of an arrogant kid who clearly was dangerous? And, more importantly, how did they do "more harm than good?" Who were they harming?

And please, please don't spout "Sith talking points" about how they would kidnap force-wielding children and withhold the secrets of the Force from the public. It's amazing to me how many people hear the villains of the story say things as an example of how "even the devil can quote scripture". . . and they just accept it at face value and think: "See, even the villains in this movie aren't really that bad. . . gosh I feel open-minded!"

Which, finally, leads us to this post-modern pap:

The one thing the PT did the best for is making a case for the Empire's existance.  Sure, the Empire was mean, nasty, cruel, vicious, and rotten; but was the Old Republic any better?

Hmmmm, old representative system of government that had gotten unwieldy and needed to be reformed vs a dictatorship and police state that enslaves other races, builds super-weapons and destroys any planet (that's trillions of people) that defies it, headed by The Lord of the Sith (synonymous with "evil" before the post-modernists interpretations started). You're right, they're both the same.

It cracks me up how "post-modern Star Wars fans" love to cling to all the moral relativism spouted by the Sith in the modern movies. Apparently, even in Star Wars, twenty-five years later, we just can't have a "good" side and a "bad" side. Yet, even Lucas doesn't believe that the Jedi are bad and the Sith just misunderstood.

Lucas wanted to provide you with an example of evil pretending to be good (again, Satan quoting scripture). He portrays Palpatine as being caring and compassionate towards Anakin in order seduce him. So, some in the audience think: "See, he's not all bad!" But are they forgetting that this guy just wants/needs a new apprentice and is trying to bring down the Jedi and the Republic? He portrays the Sith constantly describing the Jedi as arrogant and inflexible. The post-modernists lap it up, after all, they aren't giving the whiney kid main character what he wants! Forgetting, of coruse, that those saying these things about the Jedi are the friggin' villains who are attempting to turn people agains the Jedi in order to facilitate bringing down the Republic and installing themselves as the New Order. And, finally, we have people constantly describing the Republic as old, inefficient, and corrupt. And, once again, the post-modernists jump for glee because it reinforces their real-world belief that there are not Capital -T- Truths and that good and bad are relative terms.

But, of course, the accute paralysis of the Republic was caused by the Sith. Whose Lord had infiltrated the highest levels of its government. The Old Republic was seen as accutely ineffective because Palpantine needed it to appear that way in order to accrue more power to himself. So, he caused the ineffectiveness. How many times do you hear Palpatine say that he will bring and end to the Clone Wars and peace will prevail. Well, by the end of the three prequels, it is clear that he orchestrated the Clone Wars as the instrument with which he would destroy the Republic and empower himself.

And, of course, regarding the Jedi, they became resented, weakened, and spread out due to their duties as warriors during the Clone War that Palpatine orchestrated for the purpose of bringing down the Republic, destroying the Jedi, and installing himself and the Sith as rulers of the Galaxy.

But, hey. . . the Sith told us that the Jedi and the Republic were no better. . . so it's all good.

Edited February 2, 2006 by Hurin

[Duke Togo]

[CoryHolmes]

Part of the charm of the original movies was that so much of its history and background were only vaguely referred to and left to the imagination.  Tolkien, of course, did this as well.  And he too worried that to go back and fill in the details of the "far off mountains with deep roots, only barely glimpsed from afar" was to destroy the magic of them.  Whereas I don't think The Silmarillion ruins the "magic" of The Lord of the Rings, I think the prequels did affect much of the "magic" that one sensed while watching the OT because they were handled so poorly.  Heck, one could say Lucas even set out to consciously remove the magic from the series literally with his conversion of the Force into a semi-biological thing.

No arguing with your points here, but I like how the events of I-III can clearly be felt in IV-VI. And as for the midi-chlorians... *twitch twitch twitch* Whomever thought of that should be strung up and shot.

Hmmm, that's odd.  I thought they got "pasted" (I can't believe we're using Jar-Jar's favorite word) because the Lord of the Sith masterminded their downfall.  How, exactly, did they cause their own downfall?  By not giving in to the whims of an arrogant kid who clearly was dangerous?  And, more importantly, how did they do "more harm than good?"  Who were they harming?

While Palpatine was the direct cause of their downfall, the Jedi helped him along by growing so inflexible in their ways and views that they allowed him to take power. The Dark Lord of the Sith, the big bad of the universe... and how many times did Yoda and Windu and the rest stand before him? How many times did they converse and plan with the Chancellor and not know who he was? Palpatine was able to exploit the Jedi's conviction that they'd won. The Jedi had convinced themselves that the Sith were destroyed and could not see any other possiblity, even after Qui-Gon first faced Maul on Tatooine.

Yes, Palpatine was the direct cause of their downfall, but they helped him along without even knowing it.

Which, finally, leads us to this post-modern pap:

The one thing the PT did the best for is making a case for the Empire's existance.  Sure, the Empire was mean, nasty, cruel, vicious, and rotten; but was the Old Republic any better?

Hmmmm, old representative system of government that had gotten unwieldy and needed to be reformed vs a dictatorship and police state that enslaves other races, builds super-weapons and destroys any planet (that's trillions of people) that defies it, headed by The Lord of the Sith (synonymous with "evil" before the post-modernists interpretations started). You're right, they're both the same.

I didn't say that they were the same. I just asked how a bloated, ineffective system of hand-me-downs and money-grubbing backstabbers was better and more effective than "a dictatorship and police state that enslaves other races, builds super-weapons and destroys any planet (that's trillions of people) that defies it".

Yes, the Empire was not a nice place to live. I stated that before with my assertation that it was mean, nasty, cruel, vicious, and rotten. But the Old Republic was as just an ineffective system to live under. The New Republic, with the ideals of the old and tempered with the experience of the Empire, is by far the best of the three systems of government.

He portrays Palpatine as being caring and compassionate towards Anakin in order seduce him.

Ian McDermid really stole the show as Palpatine. He was everything a Sith Lord should be: persuasive, charasmatic, smart, and above all else, patient. Evil to the core, yes, but that's part of being a Sith

So, some in the audience think:  "See, he's not all bad!"

Not this audience member Part of the fun in the PT is watching Palpatine manipulate everyone around him for his own gains.

He portrays the Sith constantly describing the Jedi as arrogant and inflexible.  The post-modernists lap it up, after all, they aren't giving the whiney kid main character what he wants!  Forgetting, of coruse, that those saying these things about the Jedi are the friggin' villains who are attempting to turn people agains the Jedi in order to facilitate bringing down the Republic and installing themselves as the New Order.

Unfortunatly, there tends to be a kernel of truth in all lies. "Impossible. The Sith have been wiped out for a millenium." This after a Dark Side user with a lightsaber nearly perforated one of the Order's greatest swordsmen? "Jedi business, go back to your drinks." This after barging into a bar, engaging in combat that had the potential of killing dozens of innocent people and no explaning as to why? "You will be expelled from the Jedi Order!" This because of caring for someone else?

Yes, the villians were able to distort the truth and manipulate the public's perspectives for their own uses... but those truths and perspectives were already there. Palpatine was just able to fan those flames until the galaxy was demanding the head of every Jedi; that wouldn't have happend over night without a great deal of fermenting ahead of time.

But, of course, the accute paralysis of the Republic was caused by the Sith.  Whose Lord had infiltrated the highest levels of its government.  The Old Republic was seen as accutely ineffective because Palpantine needed it to appear that way in order to accrue more power to himself.  So, he caused the ineffectiveness.

I'm still of the opinion that he just took advantage of the ineffectivness that was already there. All the pieces were in place for him to start the ball rolling.

How many times do you hear Palpatine say that he will bring and end to the Clone Wars and peace will prevail.  Well, by the end of the three prequels, it is clear that he orchestrated the Clone Wars as the instrument with which he would destroy the Republic and empower himself.

Playing both sides against the middle, he did. *headslap for impromptu Yoda impression* The people of the galaxy were just waiting for some proof that the old system just didn't work any more. Palpatine was able to give them that proof in the form of the Clone Wars, and through that he was able to offer them an alternative.

And, of course, regarding the Jedi, they became resented, weakened, and spread out due to their duties as warriors during the Clone War that Palpatine orchestrated for the purpose of bringing down the Republic, destroying the Jedi, and installing himself and the Sith as rulers of the Galaxy.

Like I said, a masterful stroke. The Jedi were not only the Sith's hated enemies, but they were also the only real obstacle to Palpatine's march to power. That he was able to get rid of both the Jedi and the old form of government with the same tool says something about how smart he really was.

I agree with almost everything you said about how the Sith were responsible for the Empire. But they just took advantage of the seeds that were already there.

[Hurin]

(@ Togo)

Oh, an image. I see. You're right then. I'm mistaken.

It must be easy being you. You only need to come up with half-baked ideas. Then, you don't bother to express even your poorly formed ideas well. Then, when your points don't stand up to even rudimentary scrutiny, you just act like anyone who cares about the topic is a retard. That's quite a little safe-room you've built around your ego there.

Togo, let me share with you a bit of wisdom that your fellow "piss on anyone who dares to criticize The Lucas" anti-fanboy crusader let slip a while back in a (now sadly deleted) thread. It's something I've been trying to get through to you for a long time. At least bsu now realizes it:

Actually, I had a thought about the whole "fanboy" label on the weekend. An epiphany, if you will. Strangely enough, it came to me while I was reading a Call of Duty board. See, the fanboy thing can go either way. It can be people who are so in love with something they refuse to see any fault in it. Or they can be the ubercritical nitpickers who wish something had stayed the way it used to be.

Among the fanboys, the fanboy who calls others fanboys is king.

H

Edited February 2, 2006 by Hurin

[Hurin]

Cory,

I've got no problem with most of what you said. But I hope you can see that your original post was easily (mis?)interpreted.

Saying that the Old Republic needed to be overhauled is far different than saying that the Old Republic was as bad (or no better) than the Empire.

Saying that the Jedi had become too arrogant, dogmatic, and inflexible to effectively combat the resurgent evil of the Sith (or even recognize them in their midst) is not to say that they were as evil/bad as the Sith and deserved what happened to them.

Those, and other things have been said in this overly long thread, however. So, forgive me if I lumped you in with those who had made those assertions before.

H

P.S. Am I the only one who doesn't see anything wrong with a Jedi saying: "Jedi business, return to your drinks" while acting as law enforcement? Are all police officers who try to disperse crowds that gather during arrests total c*cks?

[Sundown]

So, the Seven Samurai... you could easily turn the peasant/bandit conflict into the Clone Wars (which should have taken up the entire Trilogy). The forbidden relationship between the peasant girl and the young samurai could easily have been Padme and Anakin.

Now, you take the Magnificent Seven path, and combine the Kikuchiyo and Katsushiro characters into one. He becomes Anakin. He idolizes the leader, now a more appropiately older Obi Wan, and is reckless in his attempts to prove himself. His lack of control and his penchant for following his emotions lead to his downfall.

And, in this version, he truly does kill Padme.

365693[/snapback]

That does sound somewhat more interesting. Of course we'd get a bunch of people villifying Lucas for borrowing so directly from another story... but then again, those who like Star Wars aren't generally bothered by that, since that's how Lucas has always worked.

Hmmmm, old representative system of government that had gotten unwieldy and needed to be reformed vs a dictatorship and police state that enslaves other races, builds super-weapons and destroys any planet (that's trillions of people) that defies it, headed by The Lord of the Sith (synonymous with "evil" before the post-modernists interpretations started). You're right, they're both the same.

It cracks me up how "post-modern Star Wars fans" love to cling to all the moral relativism spouted by the Sith in the modern movies. Apparently, even in Star Wars, twenty-five years later, we just can't have a "good" side and a "bad" side. Yet, even Lucas doesn't believe that the Jedi are bad and the Sith just misunderstood.

A jab at post-modernism. Illustrating how unworkable and dare I say vapid post-modernism is when applied to Star Wars, just like it is when applied to the real world.

I love you.

[Duke Togo]

(@ Togo)

Oh, an image.  I see.  You're right then.  I'm mistaken.

H

365933[/snapback]

A man's got to know his limitations.

[Sundown]

P.S.  Am I the only one who doesn't see anything wrong with a Jedi saying:  "Jedi business, return to your drinks" while acting as law enforcement?  Are all police officers who try to disperse crowds that gather during arrests total c*cks? 

365937[/snapback]

Actually no. That seems perfectly reasonable behavior for a law enforcement officer, who likely doesn't want to get mired in lengthy explainations for what just happened to people who the matter either doesn't concern, or who can't really help. It might be curt, but it's a far cry from showing that they're isolated, arrogant, and ineffective. It really isn't their job to coddle every joe schmoe's curiosity, although I suppose it might occasionally be prudent to explain in a few words why someone's limb needed hacking off.

I never really saw all the things the Jedi council had been accused of. It's as if we see these things only because Lucas says we're supposed to see them. He talks about the Jedi in interviews, and Palpatine waxes philosophical on them, but Lucas doesn't do much to show this through his actual storytelling. The only things I saw were that they were a little stuffy, pretty blind, and sort of stand-offish with someone who was whiny, arrogant himself, had serious issues going on that would make him a poor candidate for something as mundane as postal work in real life, and who did end up betraying them all and murdering children.

Sure, someone might argue that the Jedi pushed him towards the Dark Side, but I think that's a namby pamby copout. Anakin, as he was portrayed, was largely damaged goods. Seems that the Jedi should have either outright rejected him, or trained him with much closer supervision, supervision he likely would have rejected anyway. The last thing they should have done was what Anakin wanted, to have his ego fed and to be treated according to his capability rather than his character. Regardless of the Jedis' actions, Anakin was not a trustworthy individual, so it's no real fault of the Jedi that he was treated accordingly. The only motivation we as an audience are given to hope Anakin gets better treatment is because he's been arbitrarily picked as the protagonist, and because he's good looking.

And ultimately, Anakin and Mace (and the Council by association) had mostly made up. Well, that is until Anakin lopped Mace's hand off.

I really need to stop thinking about the Prequels. The more I think about them, the more I'm utterly amazed at Lucas's poor storytelling there. I don't feel any of the things it seems Lucas wants me to feel, and I don't root for any of the characters I think I'm supposed to root for.

Well, except Obi-Wan. That's the only thing I get out of the PT-- "Obi-Wan... he's, like, kind of cool."

[CoryHolmes]

P.S.  Am I the only one who doesn't see anything wrong with a Jedi saying:  "Jedi business, return to your drinks" while acting as law enforcement?  Are all police officers who try to disperse crowds that gather during arrests total c*cks?  

365937[/snapback]

Actually no. That seems perfectly reasonable behavior for a law enforcement officer, who likely doesn't want to get mired in lengthy explainations for what just happened to people who the matter either doesn't concern, or who can't really help. It might be curt, but it's a far cry from showing that they're isolated, arrogant, and ineffective. It really isn't their job to coddle every joe schmoe's curiosity, although I suppose it might occasionally be prudent to explain in a few words why someone's limb needed hacking off.

366011[/snapback]

Most officers and government officials will try to get as many innocent people out of harms way as possible, or at least explain why. Law Enforcement has a system of accountability that requires their people to justify any actions they may take. From what I've seen in the movies, the Jedi are really only accountable to themselves.

[Sundown]

Most officers and government officials will try to get as many innocent people out of harms way as possible, or at least explain why.  Law Enforcement has a system of accountability that requires their people to justify any actions they may take.  From what I've seen in the movies, the Jedi are really only accountable to themselves.

366085[/snapback]

Well, even so, doesn't mean that a police officer is going to spend very much time explaining things to bystanders... and while the Jedi seem to be largely autonomous, they also seem to answer at least in part to the Cancellor and the Senate. Which was sort of their problem in the first place, considering who the Cancellor actually was.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Sundown

[Duke Togo]

Anyway, as I was saying, the character age of Obi-Wan (57) and Guinness's age (62) at the time of shooting are close enough to dismiss it as a post-prequel continuity error.

This of course does not cover over the age problems with Anakin and Owen & Beru Lars post-prequel.

[Sumdumgai]

Ooooh, imagine if Palpatine suddenly had the urge to squeeze lemons over Anakin after Mustafar and before the suit! Ooooooh, man that hurts thinking about it!

As for "Jedi business", I wouldn't want to be explaining their mission of guarding and investigating the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala if I were a Jedi.

I wonder how the TV series will be, since someone else will be directing it.

edit: Switched to my Anakin avatar.

Edited February 3, 2006 by Sumdumgai

[Southpaw Samurai]

One big difference between Tolkien's The Silmarillion and the Prequel Trilogy is that the former WAS mostly conceived and written down (just not in a finalized, publishable form) before Tolkien worked on the Lord of the Rings. Publishers really didn't want his dry history book and instead wanted a sequel to the Hobbit, so that's why the Lord of the Rings was ultimately published before The Silmarillion .

Lucas, on the other hand, was mainly flying by the seat of his pants. He had some general concepts he formed, but the rest of the history was stuff he came up with twenty years later (with a different outlook on life), often while putting together scripts for the latest movie. All the shoddiness, the hamfisted connections back to the OT, and odd choices in time placement all come back to that issue.

I think most of the rest of the PT's issues stem from (as someone already said) Lucas' uncertainty as to who to cater to. Jar-Jar, for example, could have been a fascinating character. Instead we get an over-the-top, catering to the juvenile base character in Episode I, followed by a complete suppression in subsequent episodes in reaction to all the criticism and outright hatred the rabid older fanbase had for him.

[CoryHolmes]

Cory,

I've got no problem with most of what you said.  But I hope you can see that your original post was easily (mis?)interpreted.

Those, and other things have been said in this overly long thread, however.  So, forgive me if I lumped you in with those who had made those assertions before. 

H

365937[/snapback]

Bah, not a problem. It's this whole concept of Person A says something, Person B responds, which causes Person A to reply that makes conversation so interesting

And your repsonses have forced me to dig deep into my nerdish brain's recesses to come up with supporting facts for my arguments. What more could I want in a conversation?

[Black Valkyrie]

I think this thread should be official SW thread

[Duke Togo]

I think this thread should be official SW thread 

366426[/snapback]

We asked for one once, a while back. They said no. Damned trekkies.

[Agent ONE]

I think this thread should be official SW thread 

366426[/snapback]

We asked for one once, a while back. They said no. Damned trekkies.

366468[/snapback]

I prefer the mess we have now.

[Duke Togo]

Agent, can you sticky this thread for us?

[Agent ONE]

Agent, can you sticky this thread for us?

366505[/snapback]

Sure. Stickied.

[Sumdumgai]

Imagine if Anakin had this happen to him at the end of the fight!

[Keith]

Was that from Villgust?

[Sumdumgai]

Dragon Half. The wackiest anime I could find until Excel Saga came out.

[Swann]

[TangledThorns]

And the necro thread award goes to... 🤣

Wow, and talk about keeping stuff too haha.

[Thom]

😄

[Seto Kaiba]

Did we seriously necro a thread that's been dead for almost two decades for a photo of an old Burger King drive-thru window ad?

[Mog]

Apparently.

Now, here’s a video of Yoda hip-hop dancing, which can be found in one of those new-fangled DVD’s:

 

[ErikElvis]

just popped in to say ROTS is in my top 3 Star Wars movies. the tension in say, oh, the last third of the movie was intense. 

[Big s]

On 11/16/2023 at 8:53 AM, Seto Kaiba said:

Did we seriously necro a thread that's been dead for almost two decades for a photo of an old Burger King drive-thru window ad?

 

For some reason, it felt ok

 

2 hours ago, ErikElvis said:

just popped in to say ROTS is in my top 3 Star Wars movies. the tension in say, oh, the last third of the movie was intense. 

I had a pretty good idea of where things were going for some reason. It was sort of like Titanic. Somehow you just knew what was coming…….somehow 

[TangledThorns]

I think the last time I had Burger King was when ROTS was released 🤣🤮

[Big s]

1 hour ago, TangledThorns said:

I think the last time I had Burger King was when ROTS was released 🤣🤮

I haven’t had Burger King in a long while, not so much because of a dislike, more of a fact that I can’t find one anymore. All we have with a drive thru up here is a McDonald’s, home of the sad soggy fries and worst nuggets in the biz.

[Seto Kaiba]

4 hours ago, ErikElvis said:

just popped in to say ROTS is in my top 3 Star Wars movies. the tension in say, oh, the last third of the movie was intense. 

Whatever our opinions on the film are, it cannot be denied it was a godsend to pop culture... as a seemingly inexhaustible source of memes.

(Or as General Grievous might've put it... "Another fine addition to my collection.")

 

 

1 hour ago, TangledThorns said:

I think the last time I had Burger King was when ROTS was released 🤣🤮

Same.  Honestly, I think it's been at least two years since I've seen a Burger King.  

[Mog]

Yeah, Burger Kings have been closing up here too.  But I do like their Whopper and chicken fries every now and then.

And maybe it’s just that particular Mickey D’s, but I’ll take their fries over most fast food franchises’ fries.

[Big s]

1 hour ago, Mog said:

And maybe it’s just that particular Mickey D’s, but I’ll take their fries over most fast food franchises’ fries.

Out of the chain ones, I like Del Taco fries the best, especially the asada fries, but my favorites came from a one off called Johnny’s in Riverside ca. it was at the mythical burger corner where there are four burger places at the same intersection. They have a McDonald’s and Farmer boys on one corner, an In’n Out on another and Johnny’s on the other with a Carl’s Jr just a few feet on the other side of the freeway. I think Johnny’s was able to survive against huge competition because they were on the high ground 

[Mog]

But were their fries as crispy as Anakin was after the fight?