Someone's in trouble!

[the white drew carey]

CNN Article

All things aside, there was a serious lapse in securing a perimeter around the JFK which allowed the carrier to ram this dhow in the first place. I think someone aboard the JFK is gonna get slapped hard for letting this happen.

[Agent ONE]

Haw Haw.

[Mechamaniac]

CNN Article

All things aside, there was a serious lapse in securing a perimeter around the JFK which allowed the carrier to ram this dhow in the first place. I think someone aboard the JFK is gonna get slapped hard for letting this happen.

Iunno, something tells me that the Dhow is probably slightly smaller, and alot more maneuverable than the JFK.

Ummm, which one of the 15 idiots on the Dhow didnt see the GIGANTIC FLOATING CITY coming towards them?

[Dangard Ace]

Ummm, which one of the 15 idiots on the Dhow didnt see the GIGANTIC FLOATING CITY coming towards them?

Could be that they had weighed anchor and were sleeping at the time. The JFK rammed them when

The warship was carrying out night flight operations in support of U.S.-led forces in Iraq, the U.S. Navy said.

[Anubis]

How hard could it have possibly have been for the little boat to get the hell out of the way.

Isn't someopne supposed to be on watch?

Edited July 24, 2004 by Anubis

[Anubis]

oops, double

Edited July 24, 2004 by Anubis

[the white drew carey]

My point being that, especially after the USS Cole attack, you'd think measures would be in place to keep an eye on any small boats near a US warship, especially an aircraft carrier.

To answer your question, Anubis, dhows are small sailboats with weak motors, if they even have one. It could be possible that they couldn't manuever out of the way fast enough, especially from an aircraft carrier going 30 knots into the wind.

Dangard Ace brings up an interesting theory as well in that they were sleeping. civilian crews on small boats such as this usually don't leave someone on watch.

[Pat Payne]

I see shades of the USS Greenville and its sinking of that Japanese fishing ship a couple of years back...If those in the dhow weren't terrorists -- hell, even if they were -- the Navy had better expect a lawsuit...

[David Hingtgen]

After the Cole incident, every US warship had a bunch of M60's added around the perimeter, and good old-fashioned "guys with binoculars" looking around, anytime they're near land. How they missed a ship (regardless of size or weather conditions) doesn't look good for whoever was on look-out duty.

However, the JFK is rather known for hitting things. Current JFK "stuff it's hit" tally:

1x cruiser (USS Belknap)

1x destroyer (USS Bordelon)

1x dhow

And one close call (USS Leroy Grumman--yes, THAT Grumman)

[Coota0]

That OOD is Fvcked. But in the JFK's Defense, they may have seen it to late. It was during night ops, there are critical times in which you can't turn the carrier durring launching and landing of aircraft, and a floating city doesn't exactly turn on a dime.

[Mechamaniac]

the Navy had better expect a lawsuit...

Hmmmm, that might cost them some serious bucks. Let's break it down...

Cost of the Dhow

Cost of the cargo

Cost of the fuel

Cost to replace the lifetime salaries of 15 crewmembers.

Total settlement amount?

I figure it comes to right about $60 bucks.

[phoenix01]

It's not just the OOD who is screwed, the CO can kiss his career goodbye. Just part of the responsibility of command. Besides the destroyer escort ships are supposed to make sure no one gets that close to a carrier during operations so it'll be more than one CO who'll be facing Admiral's Mast or worse.

[Dangaioh]

"D'ho!" or is it "Dhow!" ? [/H. Simpson]

[Mechamaniac]

"D'ho!" or is it "Dhow!" ? [/H. Simpson]

Or is it

DAO as in YAO?

Can I write a check?

YO!

YAO!

YO!

YAO!!

YOOOOO!!

YAO!

Can I write a check?

[~Duo~Trenten]

A carrier with over millions of dollars of technology and dont even have radar to spot a boat.

And if the crew was "sleeping" and can stay asleep with screaming jet engines going by you must be deaf. unless they were not luanching any planes that night.

As we would say when a boat got in are way on are lake durring crew practice

RAMMING SPEED

[Coota0]

And if the crew was "sleeping" and can stay asleep with screaming jet engines going by you must be deaf. unless they were not luanching any planes that night.

You get used to the noise. Carriers perfrom flight ops around teh clock. You think no one on a carrier ever sleeps?

[Coota0]

I'm sorry I usually avoid anything personal, but ~Duo~Trenten yours is possibly the most singularly dumb post I’ve ever seen.

[justvinnie]

I'm sorry I usually avoid anything personal, but ~Duo~Trenten yours is possibly the most singularly dumb post I’ve ever seen.

I believe he is referring to the crew of the dhow and how they were asleep leaving their craft unmanned as opposed to the crew of the aircraft carrier.

vinnie

[Coota0]

Assuming Vinne is right I apologize.

[VF-19]

A carrier with over millions of dollars of technology and dont even have radar to spot a boat.

And if the crew was "sleeping" and can stay asleep with screaming jet engines going by you must be deaf. unless they were not luanching any planes that night.

As we would say when a boat got in are way on are lake durring crew practice

RAMMING SPEED

The problem with radar is that, depending on the seas, you can miss a small boat that is well within your radar range. It's also possible that the dhow was either too small to be picked up on radar, or was below the minimum height to show up on radar.

But yah, I can see the end of quite a few people's careers...

[Wes]

Part of me wants to add those 15 guys to the Darwin's list, but a one-pager is never enough to know all the details, no matter how dumb the incident.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Rules of the Road stipulate that the ship under power gives way to the ship without an engine. So if the dhow was unpowered, the carrier is in error. But if it was powered, whould the dhow be in error? It isn't like a carrier can stop on a dime. Both ships should have had competient watches anyways...

[That NOS Guy]

What is this, Speed 2?

-NOS

I'm going to hell

[David Hingtgen]

Well, the unwritten rule is that no matter what you are or what condition your engine's in, you stay the heck out of the way of a Kitty Hawk class carrier...

(especially when the Jolly Rogers are aboard)

PS--while carriers can turn MUCH harder than most people would ever believe, (it's really cool to see test footage on TV) they tend not to unless they're being flat-out attacked due to how steep the deck angle becomes--they'd dump overboard every plane that's not tied down and probably a few hundreds sailors in the process.

PPS---Actually, I bet it could stop pretty quickly, in a crash stop. Which is probably even worse for the ship than making a tight turn. And probably result in MANY injured sailors. Anyone know if most US carriers can "close the rudders" to help stop? (Turning them in opposite directions towards each other to "close off" the area between the skegs---massive rudder damage, but will greatly improve stopping distance)

Edited July 26, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[KingNor]

i doubt anyone losses a career over this, maybe loss of post, or some heavy pentalties, but accedents DO happen.

if the CO has an otherwise distinguished recored and was not personally performing the job wich failed, it doesn't make sence to throw all that training away over one incident.

you gotta remember, that from the bridge of a carrier, the first SEVERAL THOUSAND feet infront of the thing are blocked by the flight deck. if the sucker whos supposed to be watching the water strait ahead isn't doing his job then the bridge can't know anything is there.

and from the sounds of it, this boat was pretty tiny and if it was in visual with the bridge, it would be a pretty small speck on a very large ocean.

the bridge crew isn't at fault i'd say.

[Lynx7725]

How hard could it have possibly have been for the little boat to get the hell out of the way.

Isn't someopne supposed to be on watch?

For your information, my country's navy had one of its patrol craft mowed down by a container ship last year. We lost 4 sailors there (all female btw).

In our case, we had both ships under power, and both ships were aware of the positions of each other, and it was apparently a result of bad decisions that got the tail end of the patrol craft cut off by the bow of the container ship.

We got lucky. We are talking about a gross difference in tonnage by a factor of at least 10 (if not 100), and we end up losing only the tail end of a craft and 4 sailors, regrettable as it is.

And yes, the careers of the OOD and the trainee who was at the helm) were shot.

In this case, the dhow was outweighed by a thousand times over, and it's not surprising to hear that it sank outright. It's really hard to spot a small boat in broad daylight, nevermind at night, and depending on the sea condition radar might not work well enough.

(Aside: That's the problem with technology. People are so used to it working great in the right conditions, such that when the conditions aren't right they still continue to trust it. Almost invariably ends up in tragedy.)

David: Impressive pic of the carrier taking a turn. Yup, anything not secured is going flying...

[Graham]

After the Cole incident, every US warship had a bunch of M60's added around the perimeter, and good old-fashioned "guys with binoculars" looking around, anytime they're near land.

Here's a question I've always been curious about. Can the 20mm Phalanx guns track and fire at slow moving surface craft, or are the purely anti-missile?

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

AFAIK, the are anti-air only. They can take down planes in addition to missiles. I would imagine the replacement RAM has the same limitation (air only), though Knight26 is certainly THE person to ask about that.

[~Duo~Trenten]

I believe he is referring to the crew of the dhow and how they were asleep leaving their craft unmanned as opposed to the crew of the aircraft carrier.

Sorry for not responding sooner.

Yes i was talking about the Dhow. Most people that i know when they go on multiple day fishing trips they always leave someone on night watch duty.

You get used to the noise. Carriers perfrom flight ops around teh clock. You think no one on a carrier ever sleeps?

First off i would have thought you would be able to tell i was talking about the dhow and or dont know what sarcasm is but that might be expecting to much from some people.

As for knowing about the US Navy, I am a cadet Ensign in my high schools NJROTC unit and get to where i am now was not handed to me on a silver platter.

[JB0]

After the Cole incident, every US warship had a bunch of M60's added around the perimeter, and good old-fashioned "guys with binoculars" looking around, anytime they're near land.

Here's a question I've always been curious about. Can the 20mm Phalanx guns track and fire at slow moving surface craft, or are the purely anti-missile?

Graham

Given the context of this thread, that sounds positively evil...

[Graham]

Why evil? I'd have thought that a stream of 20mm shells at 6,000 rounds per minute, would be a pretty effective way of stopping a small craft filled with terrorist suicide bombers who were intent on blowing up your aircraft carrier from getting too close.

Graham

[Graham]

Ya know, this thread reminds me about the conversion between the US Aircraft Carrier and the Canadian authorities (actually an urban myth and untrue but still funny).

Read below: -

Purported transcript of a US naval ship with Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in October, 1995:

Americans: "Please divert your course 15 degrees to the North to avoid a collision."

Canadians: "Recommend you divert YOUR course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision."

Americans: "This is the captain of a US Navy ship. I say again, divert YOUR course."

Canadians: "No, I say again, you divert YOUR course."

Americans: "THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN, THE SECOND LARGEST SHIP IN THE UNITED STATES' ATLANTIC FLEET. WE ARE ACCOMPANIED BY THREE DESTROYERS, THREE CRUISERS AND NUMEROUS SUPPORT VESSELS. I DEMAND THAT YOU CHANGE YOUR COURSE 15 DEGREES NORTH. THAT'S ONE-FIVE DEGREES NORTH, OR COUNTER MEASURES WILL BE UNDERTAKEN TO ENSURE THE SAFETY OF THIS SHIP."

Canadians: "This is a lighthouse. Your call."

Graham

[Godzilla]

I have a buddy on the JFK. He is flying Hornets. I will send him email about it. I am sure he probably cant say too much about it. Then again, I havent heard from him for awhile.

[Lynx7725]

Why evil? I'd have thought that a stream of 20mm shells at 6,000 rounds per minute, would be a pretty effective way of stopping a small craft filled with terrorist suicide bombers who were intent on blowing up your aircraft carrier from getting too close.

Graham

Provided that it is indeed terrorist suicide bombers and not some poor slob who don't understand Engrish.

Turning innocent folks into shark food always have reprucsussions.

[David Hingtgen]

I've not seen the "Abraham Lincoln" version of that legend. And "2nd largest ship in the Atlantic" is certainly a new line, never heard that added in. (Asides from the fact that there's nothing bigger than a Nimitz class, and that the Lincoln is a PACIFIC ship)

[Graham]

Why evil? I'd have thought that a stream of 20mm shells at 6,000 rounds per minute, would be a pretty effective way of stopping a small craft filled with terrorist suicide bombers who were intent on blowing up your aircraft carrier from getting too close.

Graham

Provided that it is indeed terrorist suicide bombers and not some poor slob who don't understand Engrish.

Turning innocent folks into shark food always have reprucsussions.

One would think that in this day and age, it's pretty much common sense that it's not good for ones health to approach too closely to an American warship unless you have clearance to do so.

And anyway, there's such a thing as escalation of force: -

Step # 1: If they're approaching slowly, hail them first.

Step # 2: If hailing doesn't work fire a warning shot across the bows.

Step # 3: If they're still coming, they're probably up to no good anyway and force is justified.

Of course, if they are approaching at high speed on a rammming course, forget steps # 1 & 2 and go directly to step # 3

Graham