Official Gundam Seed Destiny Thread

[Goshawk]

I saw a Sky Grasper up on ebay a while back and have been look ever since to find anouther, but came aross this

Sky Grasper

if someone can find one cheaper let me know

Edited July 26, 2005 by Goshawk

[kalvasflam]

So all we know is Uzumi ordered it built right? So we don't know when it was completed. It could have just been the frame sitting around somewhere and the Alliance just had more important things to deal with than an incomplete MS.

Either that or the Alliance was only interested in occupation and didn't really go around looking for secret weapons.

314134[/snapback]

That's a good point... I assumed that this was built before, you get that kind of from the speech Uzumi made. But he could've had Erica start the project, but put it on hold after EA invaded. Ah well, Bling gundam.... bah.... I'm waiting for the gundam called Fuzzy pink bunny of love, imagine being killed by something called Fuzzy pink bunny of love Gundam.

[Mechafan]

I watched ep 40 and like it. Now I see why the chairman wanted to target Orb. They still have a working mass driver. Legos/EA could still launch attacks into space from there. That gold mobile suit did pretty good so far. Una arrested for treason, that was a nice touch. Now to arrest his father also for putting Orb in danger. They did not even warn the citizens. That is poor leadership. At least Zaft wanted to limit civilian deaths. I think that Dullindal put Shin and Rey into Faith so they can bypass Talla to get things done. He could tell that she is not agreeable with him on his choices.

[Effect]

I don't think it has to do with the mass driver. After all the EA itself still has one from the last war. I'm sure they've even built another I'd think. Would be smart of them to, in the very middle of EA controll land in North America just to be extra safe. So going after Orb for that doesn't seem like it would be the main reason. I think he wanted to attack Orb and is just using Dijbril as the means to do it. Orb is strong(really it shouldn't be for such a small island nation) and that's why he wants them gone. He can't risk anyone going against him.

Now that I think about it seems like this attack was never really going to work anyway when you think about it. When Azreal's EA fleet went after Orb they had a LOT more troops to take out the military bases and mobile suits. Even they didn't purposly target goverment buildings or even private housing or fly over the cities directly putting the civilian population in danger the way ZAFT has done. At least not on screen, and it seems they didn't in manga stories either.

[Magnus]

Strike Freedom MSIA has just been released and is for sale on Ebay! I just bought two, can't wait to get them in and settle once and for all if it has removable Dragoons or not!

[kalvasflam]

I don't think it has to do with the mass driver. After all the EA itself still has one from the last war. I'm sure they've even built another I'd think. Would be smart of them to, in the very middle of EA controll land in North America just to be extra safe. So going after Orb for that doesn't seem like it would be the main reason. I think he wanted to attack Orb and is just using Dijbril as the means to do it. Orb is strong(really it shouldn't be for such a small island nation) and that's why he wants them gone. He can't risk anyone going against him.

314386[/snapback]

Here we delve into the realm of politics, and we again see why Cagalli is absolutely unfit to rule. Having thrown Yuuna into the brig, she decides to continue to fight ZAFT. Now, there is no good logic behind this. We can examine what ZAFT say they want: namely purple lips Jibril.

Orb initially responded with a lie. Having thrown Yuna in jail, Cagalli's next move should've been ordering a broadcast to ZAFT asking them to stand down, give her a little time to find and turn over Jibril, or possibly even invite some of ZAFT troops to Orb to help search for Jibril. Her excuse for needing the time is that she just threw out a bunch of people that launched a coup, and it's taking time to get things organized.

Why would this be a good move? Well, Cagalli gains everything, she tried a peaceful solution. It spares Orb's military capacity from having to fight ZAFT if it works. Keeps her people (civilians) from getting involved (we know that civvies are going to die anyway even in an action limited to just military targets) more than they have already. The worst case scenario is the plea falls on deaf ears, but Cagalli loses nothing by doing this, and gains in the eyes of others because she tried to be reasonable in spite of the ZAFT attack.

There is at least some evidence that ZAFT troops are only interested in Jibril, thanks to Dullindal saying that Jibril is the way to end the war. And better yet, Cagalli might be able to throw Yuuna and daddy to the dogs too, by saying "it's Orb's ideal to be neutral, and these people who want to ally with EA's war criminals are not a part of Orb." Th0is would be what a crafty politician would do. If it works, the battle goes on for a few minutes, and then stops.

Now in the heat of battle, it might be a little difficult to disengage, but once the commander of ZAFT troops hears this, odds are, he will probably pull his troops back, after all, why continue an unnecessary battle when the other side is going to hand you what you want. The other reason for stopping is that he would've seen things aren't going well, so, if he waits, he gets additional reinforcements for a full push if talks fall apart.

But the problem with continuing to fight and to "defend" Orb, she is ensuring that no one on the other side knows that Yuuna and company got tossed in jail, and Orb is willing to turn over Jibril. (I'm assuming this, since it's unlikely that Cagalli and company would want to shelter Jibril in the first place) So, ZAFT now keeps attacking because they are assuming that Jibril is still being protected, and idiot Cagalli keeps fighting back because she sees ZAFT invading... but now, for no good reason, because Yuuna and company are finished.

Don't you just love the irony? Just another reason why Cagalli is DUMB.

[Mechafan]

Strike Freedom MSIA has just been released and is for sale on Ebay!  I just bought two, can't wait to get them in and settle once and for all if it has removable Dragoons or not!

314393[/snapback]

Cool. It looks like the GUNDAM FIX #7002 SEED FREEDOM GUNDAM is out too. From the back of the box it look like it can do that master grade pose.

Mines should be comming soon. I ordered both.

[HG Blows]

Strike Freedom MSIA has just been released and is for sale on Ebay!  I just bought two, can't wait to get them in and settle once and for all if it has removable Dragoons or not!

314393[/snapback]

CrossZGundam right? Haha, I've bought all my Freedoms off him, just picked up one of these as well. How long does yours usually take to ship?

[Magnus]

crosszgundams rules! i've been buying off him for the last year and he blows stores like HLJ out of the water. As an example, I ordered the Gaia/Chaos/Abyss MSIA's from both crossz and HLJ at the same time.

It was only about a week AFTER I had gotten the figures in from crossz that HLJ sent me an email telling me they had JUST shipped the figures. 3 weeks later they were there.

Crossz usually gets the figures to me in a week, sometimes under, and i'm in Canada. Somehow it always by-passes customs too, so no duties either. I haven't been disappointed by him yet!

[Druna Skass]

I don't think a mass driver would be able to work in North America, I think it needs to be in a equatorial region. They could probably get away with a facility in the Carribian or Mexico.

They way I see it Gilbert is taking Orb down regardless, Lacus and Cagali seem to feel the same way. So telling him to hold back while they look for him would just be a futile action. Archangel won't be combat ready for at least 2 days, and Gilbert isn't likely to believe them.

[kalvasflam]

They way I see it Gilbert is taking Orb down regardless, Lacus and Cagali seem to feel the same way. So telling him to hold back while they look for him would just be a futile action. Archangel won't be combat ready for at least 2 days, and Gilbert isn't likely to believe them.

314561[/snapback]

Ah, you're talking reality, I'm talking politics. I know it might be futile, but a few words never killed anyone... ok, that's not true, but in this case, it doesn't hurt to try. The worst that can happen is status quo, they all keep fighting. But there is indication that the ZAFT commanders might actually hold up for a while and consult their bosses.

Gilbert might want to kill Orb regardless, but you have to remember, so far, he is supposed to be lying to his people with just "I want Jibril" Then, if Orb promises hands over Jibril, tosses in yuna and daddy, and then say: "look guys, we are neutral again, here are the offending parties." What does it hurt. For Cagalli, she gets rid of potential rivals, has a look of reasonable and intelligent leader. If Dullindal keeps going after Orb, then he looks bad.

It's all about appearences.

On the one hand, you see an unreasonable Dullindal if he presists in attacking Orb after Cagalli promises to find and turn over Jibril, and on the other if Cagalli keep doing what she does, you see Orb in chaos, harboring war criminal.

To the outside world, Dullindal looks more right as time goes on, "see those Orb lunatics, they harbor a war criminal, and to boot, they're dangerous with all their technology."

Finally analysis... Cagalli: DUMB. Ok, ok, too harsh... not very skilled in the art of politics.

Edited July 27, 2005 by kalvasflam

[F360]

I don't think it has to do with the mass driver. After all the EA itself still has one from the last war. I'm sure they've even built another I'd think. Would be smart of them to, in the very middle of EA controll land in North America just to be extra safe. So going after Orb for that doesn't seem like it would be the main reason. I think he wanted to attack Orb and is just using Dijbril as the means to do it. Orb is strong(really it shouldn't be for such a small island nation) and that's why he wants them gone. He can't risk anyone going against him.

314386[/snapback]

Here we delve into the realm of politics, and we again see why Cagalli is absolutely unfit to rule. Having thrown Yuuna into the brig, she decides to continue to fight ZAFT. Now, there is no good logic behind this. We can examine what ZAFT say they want: namely purple lips Jibril.

Orb initially responded with a lie. Having thrown Yuna in jail, Cagalli's next move should've been ordering a broadcast to ZAFT asking them to stand down, give her a little time to find and turn over Jibril, or possibly even invite some of ZAFT troops to Orb to help search for Jibril. Her excuse for needing the time is that she just threw out a bunch of people that launched a coup, and it's taking time to get things organized.

Why would this be a good move? Well, Cagalli gains everything, she tried a peaceful solution. It spares Orb's military capacity from having to fight ZAFT if it works. Keeps her people (civilians) from getting involved (we know that civvies are going to die anyway even in an action limited to just military targets) more than they have already. The worst case scenario is the plea falls on deaf ears, but Cagalli loses nothing by doing this, and gains in the eyes of others because she tried to be reasonable in spite of the ZAFT attack.

There is at least some evidence that ZAFT troops are only interested in Jibril, thanks to Dullindal saying that Jibril is the way to end the war. And better yet, Cagalli might be able to throw Yuuna and daddy to the dogs too, by saying "it's Orb's ideal to be neutral, and these people who want to ally with EA's war criminals are not a part of Orb." Th0is would be what a crafty politician would do. If it works, the battle goes on for a few minutes, and then stops.

Now in the heat of battle, it might be a little difficult to disengage, but once the commander of ZAFT troops hears this, odds are, he will probably pull his troops back, after all, why continue an unnecessary battle when the other side is going to hand you what you want. The other reason for stopping is that he would've seen things aren't going well, so, if he waits, he gets additional reinforcements for a full push if talks fall apart.

But the problem with continuing to fight and to "defend" Orb, she is ensuring that no one on the other side knows that Yuuna and company got tossed in jail, and Orb is willing to turn over Jibril. (I'm assuming this, since it's unlikely that Cagalli and company would want to shelter Jibril in the first place) So, ZAFT now keeps attacking because they are assuming that Jibril is still being protected, and idiot Cagalli keeps fighting back because she sees ZAFT invading... but now, for no good reason, because Yuuna and company are finished.

Don't you just love the irony? Just another reason why Cagalli is DUMB.

314399[/snapback]

The thing you seem to miss is that Zaft already started their attack,, it was then that Cagalli stepped up and took charge in order to defend ORB. Yuna screwed up, Zaft is already attacking, Orb and Zaft are already in battle, Orb is lossing. In a situation like this you can't just come up and start a negotiation with the attacking enemy. You are lossing so what is there to nagotiate about. It'll be like Begging or Surrendering at the first sight of a enemy attack, you can't nagotiate Poo in that situation. Orb was never a Chicken poo Country,, well for a short time when Yuna was in control, but no more.

The first thing you'll need to do is DEFEND and hold them off or lucky push them back. Then and only then can you start your negotiation. In Ep40 the battle just started so I'm sure Orb will do a broadcast and contact ZAFt Later on.

What Cagalli's doing in ep 40 is not DUMB. It's a person defending her country when her country needs her most.

Losen your hate on Cagalli man

Edited July 27, 2005 by F360

[Druna Skass]

Though Gilbert could just as easily say that they're just stalling for time so they can send Djibril into space with their mass driver. So either way he can still make Orb look bad towards his people. If Cagalli told him they're looking for him, he'd probably demand that Orb stop fighting and if they did, that would just give ZAFT and opportunity to just walk right in.

Probably the only person who's not blindly following Order 66 is Talia, and now Shinn and Rey don't have to listen to her so basicaly she's been isolated. So the only person who would likly listen to any requests from Orb would be Talia, who's basicaly powerless.

[azrael]

Probably, it would have been doubtful that ZAFT would listen. The last time Cagalli went out and broadcasted to ZAFT, the ORB fleet said that's not her. So ZAFT has no reason to believe that it is Cagalli and no reason to trust ORB.

By the time Cagalli showed up, the front line collapsed (no thanks to the Sarans). So she needed to 1) kick out the trespassers (ZAFT) from her property, 2) Arrest and detain the idiotic caretakers of her property (Sarans) 3) Find and grab the unwanted house guest (Djibril). Worst off, ZAFT was makin a mess of the place. ZAFT has no reason listen to her since she is part of ORB and probably should be arrested too. As said, if ORB stopped fighting, ZAFT gets a free pass to everything on the island. That's not ORB. ORB, as a principal, doesn't like people to step all over them. And Djibril was on ORB soil, so it's ORB's problem, not ZAFT's (i.e. Cagalli's order to spank Jona and Unato until they spill the beans on Djibril). ZAFT could have fired warning shots, created a blockade, blah blah blah, but no, they decided to barge through the front door. Cagalli was only working with the situation. And I saw nothing wrong with that.

Probably the only person who's not blindly following Order 66 is Talia, and now Shinn and Rey don't have to listen to her so basicaly she's been isolated.

How I would love it if Athrun pulls an Obi-Wan on Ana...I mean Shinn.

[kalvasflam]

We'll ignore super heroes and their insane machines and look at reality:

1) In reality, Orb does not have a chance against ZAFT in the long run.

2) Continued fighting will ensure that all (or more) of Orb eventually gets wrecked.

3) ZAFT commanders (as far as they know) and Cagalli wants to get rid of Jibril. In theory, if Jibril gets handed over, the best case is ZAFT goes away. The worst case is ZAFT demands even more, which makes ZAFT look pretty bad because they're moving the goal posts.

The reason for making a quick broadcast is that it is possible to achieve the following, none of which are bad for Cagalli or the citizens of Orb:

1) temporary cessation of hostilities

2) chance to realign the defenses when hostilities recommences.

3) a chance to evacuate the citizens of Orb to shelter before the battle reaches them

4) a chance to consolidate her power in Orb, and toss in a token offering

At worst, you get no response from the ZAFT commander on scene, and the fight continues. But now, Cagalli would've had an image of trying to be reasonable.

I agree with the trespasser analogy and the need to take care of ones own house, it makes sense. But Cagalli is only at this moment regaining control of her own house, and she is trying to fight multiple battles at once, not exactly a recipe for success.

The reality of the situation is that Orb can't stand up to ZAFT, unless something has changed, and Orb suddenly rivaled ZAFT in terms of real military power. Continued fighting means Orb eventually gets overwhelmed. As Cagalli continues to fight, it just means ZAFT will pour in more reinforcements, almost a guarantee that it will wreck more of Orb, which is exactly what Cagalli doesn't want.

This of course begs an answer to a bigger question, specifically regarding Uzumi's ideals. Which is, we'll stay neutral, and will defend ourselves to maintain our neutrality. The real question is, what is the cost of neutrality? i.e. what matters more? The lives of the citizens in Orb, or the ideal itself. Meaning, if you had to sacrifice one, which would go first?

I think what Uzumi is really saying is that we don't want to be involved, and to stay neutral, I'm going to play both sides off of each other, and in turn, staysafe. It's a very good plan until one side gains too much power, or if you don't have a smart enough guy in the middle playing both sides off.

Again, this is just all second guessing the situation on what real life people would consider doing. With the series so full of plot holes as it is, this is one issue that doesn't even rate much.

And F360... I wasn't as harsh the second go around Remember, I don't hate Cagalli, I just don't think she is very astute.

[Druna Skass]

Well if you're talking about reducing casualties, the only thing Orb can do surrender. ZAFT is invading, there is no negotiating at this point. It's either surrender or fight back, take some damage or foreign occupation.

Cagalli wouldn't look resonable since Gilbert would just accuse her of buying time for Djibril. If anything he could probably twist it around and make it look to everyone else that Cagalli's collaborating with Djibril.

Though I agree that Orb's best bet was to play both sides against the middle.

[azrael]

The problem with the neutrality card is, ORB threw it away when the Sarans allied with EA.

As soon as the invasion started, anything ORB would/could/should do would make it look like they were stalling for Djibril. ZAFT had no reason to listen. They allied with EA. They allowed Djibril to enter the country. They lied about his whereabouts. Would you believe it if Cagalli all of a sudden broadcasted a message tell you to cease fire?

But Cagalli is only at this moment regaining control of her own house, and she is trying to fight multiple battles at once, not exactly a recipe for success.

Do you love it when people fight for hopeless causes? As soon as she gained control of the government, arresting the Sarans and getting Djibril's whereabouts were the easy things. Pushing ZAFT out....that's another story.

[kalvasflam]

All true, but the point still stands, it doesn't hurt at all to try. ZAFT doesn't have to believe it... and odds are, they probably won't, but if Cagalli didn't try at all, she would never know what the results would be. Think of it like being dealt a free hand in a round of poker where you don't lose anything by playing, but standing to gain a lot if you won.

As for fighting back, the result is not take some damage, it would be Orb getting totalled. In my view, they're even less prepared for invasion this time than the last time. Remember, if nothing else, she might be able to buy some time. Dullindal can do whatever he wants, it would be up to her to try to counter his arguments. But if she just keeps fighting, well, she would effectively putting Orb's ideals ahead of the well being of its people.

Keep in mind, I'm looking at this based on information available to the individual, not a omniglobal view.

Use a historical analogy. Think about the end of WWII, the Japanese could keep fighting and hold on to their ideals (whatever those happened to be), even after two atom bombs. But at some point, reason had to prevail, because if it didn't, then it would have been invasion, or something even worse, and Halsey would've been proven correct, and the Japanese language would've indeed only been spoken in hell.

[Druna Skass]

All true, but the point still stands, it doesn't hurt at all to try.  ZAFT doesn't have to believe it... and odds are, they probably won't, but if Cagalli didn't try at all, she would never know what the results would be.  Think of it like being dealt a free hand in a round of poker where you don't lose anything by playing, but standing to gain a lot if you won.

As for fighting back, the result is not take some damage, it would be Orb getting totalled.  In my view, they're even less prepared for invasion this time than the last time.  Remember, if nothing else, she might be able to buy some time.  Dullindal can do whatever he wants,  it would be up to her to try to counter his arguments.  But if she just keeps fighting, well, she would effectively putting Orb's ideals ahead of the well being of its people.

Keep in mind, I'm looking at this based on information available to the individual, not a omniglobal view.

Use a historical analogy.  Think about the end of WWII, the Japanese could keep fighting and hold on to their ideals (whatever those happened to be), even after two atom bombs.  But at some point, reason had to prevail, because if it didn't, then it would have been invasion, or something even worse, and Halsey would've been proven correct, and the Japanese language would've indeed only been spoken in hell.

314723[/snapback]

So you're saying Orb should surrender?

[kalvasflam]

So you're saying Orb should surrender?

314729[/snapback]

Nope, I'm saying Cagalli need to examine her priorities.

The same situation during the end of WWII Japan, the government examined their options and their priorities, and picked a course of action that didn't involve even more of their people killed. You have to remember, for them, famine was a real threat toward the end of the war.

Here, Cagalli need to examine her priorities, defending her home is one thing, defending her home at the potential cost of all those civilians getting caught in the cross fire is quite something else. Which was why a step like a broadcast to ZAFT and giving them an option of not continuing the assult is a good idea, again, everything to gain, nothing to lose. Although she doesn't know this, Dullindal have to appear to act reasonably. Squashing Orb when they appear to give into you isn't a reasonable action. Dullindal would need to tread carefully, or his subordinates might rebel. The odds of success is not all that tilted. Remember, if nothing else, she is buying time.

[Druna Skass]

So you're saying Orb should surrender?

314729[/snapback]

Nope, I'm saying Cagalli need to examine her priorities.

The same situation during the end of WWII Japan, the government examined their options and their priorities, and picked a course of action that didn't involve even more of their people killed. You have to remember, for them, famine was a real threat toward the end of the war.

Here, Cagalli need to examine her priorities, defending her home is one thing, defending her home at the potential cost of all those civilians getting caught in the cross fire is quite something else. Which was why a step like a broadcast to ZAFT and giving them an option of not continuing the assult is a good idea, again, everything to gain, nothing to lose. Although she doesn't know this, Dullindal have to appear to act reasonably. Squashing Orb when they appear to give into you isn't a reasonable action. Dullindal would need to tread carefully, or his subordinates might rebel. The odds of success is not all that tilted. Remember, if nothing else, she is buying time.

314730[/snapback]

I don't think WWII is a good analogy, since the U.S. wasn't demandeing the Japanese to hand over anyone.

If you're saying preserving the lives of the citizens should be Cagalli's priority, then you're still saying Orb should capitulate. Since you said it yourself, they would just be delaying the inevitable.

As soon as the invasion started, anything ORB would/could/should do would make it look like they were stalling for Djibril. ZAFT had no reason to listen. They allied with EA. They allowed Djibril to enter the country. They lied about his whereabouts. Would you believe it if Cagalli all of a sudden broadcasted a message tell you to cease fire?

Probably, it would have been doubtful that ZAFT would listen. The last time Cagalli went out and broadcasted to ZAFT, the ORB fleet said that's not her. So ZAFT has no reason to believe that it is Cagalli and no reason to trust ORB.

By the time Cagalli showed up, the front line collapsed (no thanks to the Sarans). So she needed to 1) kick out the trespassers (ZAFT) from her property, 2) Arrest and detain the idiotic caretakers of her property (Sarans) 3) Find and grab the unwanted house guest (Djibril). Worst off, ZAFT was makin a mess of the place. ZAFT has no reason listen to her since she is part of ORB and probably should be arrested too. As said, if ORB stopped fighting, ZAFT gets a free pass to everything on the island. That's not ORB. ORB, as a principal, doesn't like people to step all over them. And Djibril was on ORB soil, so it's ORB's problem, not ZAFT's (i.e. Cagalli's order to spank Jona and Unato until they spill the beans on Djibril). ZAFT could have fired warning shots, created a blockade, blah blah blah, but no, they decided to barge through the front door. Cagalli was only working with the situation. And I saw nothing wrong with that.

Azrael has a good point here.

Like I said earlier

Cagalli wouldn't look resonable since Gilbert would just accuse her of buying time for Djibril. If anything he could probably twist it around and make it look to everyone else that Cagalli's collaborating with Djibril.

Cagalli and Lacus already know Orb is next on Gilbert's hit-list, so why would they even bother? The only person Gilbert needs to worry about in his own ranks is Talia (and to a much lesser extent, Dearka and Yzak) and he pretty much has Talia isolated. Gilbert doesn't need to worry about looking unresonable since almost all of ZAFT (and possibly parts of the Alliance) seem to blindly trust him.

The situation would be more like if Saddam, said "Wait give me some time to gather up my WMDs" right when U.S. forces were already in Iraq. Do you think the U.S. and Britain would believe him? When the invasion force in on your soil, there is no negotiating. ZAFT already tired talking and Yunna told them to to away. ZAFT is done talking.

[Druna Skass]

When Djibril is talking to the elder Saran, he says "He's in space" when he mentions the Requiem. So who is "He"?

[Magnus]

Well, it's official - NO DRAGOONS for the Strike-Freedom MSIA:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/...p=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Dammit, that's REALLY weak Bandai. Seriously. Not including the main defining gimmick of the suit?? WTF. I really cannot express how much I was looking forward to this figure, and how disappointed I am in it now.

Edited July 27, 2005 by Magnus

[kalvasflam]

I don't think WWII is a good analogy, since the U.S. wasn't demandeing the Japanese to hand over anyone.

If you're saying preserving the lives of the citizens should be Cagalli's priority, then you're still saying Orb should capitulate. Since you said it yourself, they would just be delaying the inevitable.

Cagalli and Lacus already know Orb is next on Gilbert's hit-list, so why would they even bother? The only person Gilbert needs to worry about in his own ranks is Talia (and to a much lesser extent, Dearka and Yzak) and he pretty much has Talia isolated. Gilbert doesn't need to worry about looking unresonable since almost all of ZAFT (and possibly parts of the Alliance) seem to blindly trust him.

The situation would be more like if Saddam, said "Wait give me some time to gather up my WMDs" right when U.S. forces were already in Iraq. Do you think the U.S. and Britain would believe him? When the invasion force in on your soil, there is no negotiating. ZAFT already tired talking and Yunna told them to to away. ZAFT is done talking.

314762[/snapback]

With Japan, it's not a direct analogy, the point is both instances, there are serious choices to be made in the long term, but there are short term decisions which can have immediate benefits.

And no, talking is not capitulating. Remember, even during the height of the EA assault, Uzumi continued to try to negotiate. Why? Even though it doesn't work, it looks good to the rest of the world. "See, we're trying to be reasonable, those other guys aren't." Again, this is a point I'm trying to make that appearences sometime can overrule reality. Look at Saddam, the man is a monster, yet a good part of the world sympathizes with his point of view (NOT HIM): "see, I'm trying to prevent war, and the damn Americans are just attacking." And he had his people continuing their banter in the UN even after the fight started because it puts up the appearence of being reasonable.

Appearence vs Reality...

Reality is that Orb will go down if flames if it doesn't try to change the current appearences, which as you rightly point out is ZAFT thinking Yuna and daddy are in charge and with Jibril. But a regime change means that things will have to be reexamined. Remember, under Cagalli, Orb was neutral, so there is precedent.

I think Dullindal of all people has to try to appear to be reasonable. Remember, he is showing pictures of EA slaughtering civilians, his commanders went out of the way to "avoid civilian casualties." He is also putting up an image of what he is and what he is trying to accomplish. If he screws that up, then his support goes away, as it is, he already has to worry about real Lacus, he can't afford to appear to be unreasonable.

The bottom line is this: Cagalli making a little speech doesn't hurt a damn thing. The worst that can happen is the on scene commander for ZAFT says "no, we're gonna keep pounding." It's a smart thing to do, you don't lose anything by saying this stuff, and you have things to gain.

There is also a tactical consideration with Dullindal. Even if he turns around and say: "ok, fine, I want to occupy Orb right now," it still takes time for him to get the message to his commanders on scene. Time is what Orb needs, more time to continue evacuation of civilians which didn't start until well after the fight had started. You have to remember, Cagalli doesn't know ZAFT commanders are trying to limit damage to civilians. That's the fine line I'm trying to draw between what matters more, ideals or being able to save a few more lives.

[azrael]

And no, talking is not capitulating. Remember, even during the height of the EA assault, Uzumi continued to try to negotiate. Why? Even though it doesn't work, it looks good to the rest of the world.

But it didn't matter since EA still invaded. Other nations seem to have hearing problems when it comes to ORB. But Uzumi was in charge of ORB then. Times have changed. As the commander in the episode said, this time things are different. Fool me once shame on me. Fool me twice...And as far as ZAFT is concerned, the Sarans are still in control of ORB. This is why Cagalli was making her way to ORB HQ. She cannot broadcast from Akatsuki, certainly not from Archangel, and certainly not from anywhere else. She needs to be in control of ORB at ORB. ZAFT will listen when they are off the island and chillin outside ORB territory.

Why should ZAFT listen when their kicking the crap out of ORB? If someone is beating you up and winning, why would they want to listen to you? As far as they are concerned, they're right, your wrong and your losing the arguement. Why should they listen to ORB when obviously Orb didn't listen to ZAFT?

You have to remember, Cagalli doesn't know ZAFT commanders are trying to limit damage to civilians. That's the fine line I'm trying to draw between what matters more, ideals or being able to save a few more lives.

Whether they attack civilians or the military, they are still attacking ORB.

Edited July 27, 2005 by azrael

[azrael]

Well, it's official - NO DRAGOONS for the Strike-Freedom MSIA:

http://www.excite.co.jp/world/english/web/...p=JAEN&wb_dis=2

Dammit, that's REALLY weak Bandai.  Seriously.  Not including the main defining gimmick of the suit??  WTF.  I really cannot express how much I was looking forward to this figure, and how disappointed I am in it now.

314773[/snapback]

I have a feeling that the MSIA (like the 1/144) was done prior to lineart for the DRAGOONs. If they wanted to get the product on the assembly line, they would have to forgo the DRAGOONs. The HG 1/100 does have the DRAGOONs while the early products dont.

[kalvasflam]

Ack, we're going around in circles now.

I agree that ZAFT might not listen. But the point is still drop the broadcast anyway, since it won't hurt doing it. Appearences... and if it gains Orb a respite, then it's a bonus. As for ZAFT winning, that wasn't the case right before Shinn showed up... they were getting pushed back, remember?

But think of it, if Cagalli can do a broadcast from Rouge, she damn well better be able to do it from Bling Gundam. Unless of course, Bling gundam was actually meant for combat, and Rouge was meant act as a PA system.

Remember, a leader is more of a politician than just a front line grunt, and the latter is the role Cagalli is taking on while more or less neglecting the former. After all, if Shinn happens to skewer her, how could she possibly lead her men?

And before anyone say it... this isn't hating Cagalli, I'm just pointing out that she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Druna Skass]

Remember, a leader is more of a politician than just a front line grunt, and the latter is the role Cagalli is taking on while more or less neglecting the former.  After all, if Shinn happens to skewer her, how could she possibly lead her men? 

Is she negleciting the former role? She's rallying Orb's demoralized troops as well as launching a quiet coup de ta. She's got the military part down, by ralling her troops and regrouping the defences, and the political part by taking back power in Orb.

Kind of reminds me of Episode 1 where Padme is leading Naboo's forces and kicking the Trade Feds off the planet.

[azrael]

I agree that ZAFT might not listen.  But the point is still drop the broadcast anyway, since it won't hurt doing it.  Appearences...  and if it gains Orb a respite, then it's a bonus.  As for ZAFT winning, that wasn't the case right before Shinn showed up... they were getting pushed back, remember?

Shinn is part of FAITH now. The only person he listens to is Palp...I mean Dullindal. And Shinn has has his fill of BS from ORB so unless the good Sith Lo...I mean the Chairman was right there barking orders, Shinn will just say screw you.

[Druna Skass]

I agree that ZAFT might not listen.  But the point is still drop the broadcast anyway, since it won't hurt doing it.  Appearences...  and if it gains Orb a respite, then it's a bonus.  As for ZAFT winning, that wasn't the case right before Shinn showed up... they were getting pushed back, remember?

Shinn is part of FAITH now. The only person he listens to is Palp...I mean Dullindal. And Shinn has has his fill of BS from ORB so unless the good Sith Lo...I mean the Chairman was right there barking orders, Shinn will just say screw you.

314851[/snapback]

Twisted by the Dark Side, young Asuka is...

[HG Blows]

Just an off note about Orb, I'm assuming they don't have a large national guard, so why not put some well placed positron cannons at the shore, and start blowing away anything that comes close? Or at least have some submarines or something. It seems like all they have is mobile suits and a fleet of ships whose only purpose is to carry more MS and be sitting targets. Who the hell's running the department of defense?

[Mechafan]

Who the hell's running the department of defense?

314873[/snapback]

I wonder that too since in the begining of Destiny Zaft was making advanced mobile suits with Orb.

[azrael]

If ORB was being beaten, then Shinn wouldn't have gone out. But ORB was pushing back, so he went out. If Cagalli opened her mouth, Shinn would have forced his way off Minerva screamin kill kill kill.

From Gunota:

ZGMF-XX09T DOM (Dauntless Obliterator Magnificent) Trooper

JPS36X Gigalauncher DR1 multiplex

MX2351 Solidus Fulgor

MA-X848HD strengthened (?) beam saber

G14X3IZ Screaming Nimbus

MMI-GAU25A 20mm CIWS

EX-EZ1200 EZ Wizard pack

And some potential spoilers

AA sped to head towards ORB which was at risk. Murre released Neo and adviced him to escape with a Sky Gasper. Athrun, with serious injured body preparing for battle with Zaft, urged Meyrin to get off the ship."

Edited July 29, 2005 by azrael

[Magnus]

Anyone got any suggestions on how to modify the Strike-Freedom MSIA to incorporate de-tacheable dragoons (apart from simply cutting them off completely )

[kalvasflam]

Is she negleciting the former role? She's rallying Orb's demoralized troops as well as launching a quiet coup de ta. She's got the military part down, by ralling her troops and regrouping the defences, and the political part by taking back power in Orb.

314835[/snapback]

And yet she totally ignores the important foreign relations aspect of that leadership role. Comparison to Padme isn't very good, because she did conduct diplomacy within the galactic senate before going back to Naboo (yeah I know, no equivalent body in CE, but guess what, PLANT/ZAFT is considered a foreign entity)

Orb was pushing back, which was why it was a perfect time to drop a speech and pray. Like you said, Azrael, a winning force is not as likely to listen as when a situation becomes less tenable... like when ZAFT was getting pushed back.

Oh well, all this is a nice theoretical discussion. Time to move on.

DOM has that kind of a name? Geez, I was hoping they'd come up with something better, if they ever had Gelgoogs, I wonder what acronym it would've had. All those Gs would make the naming convention a bit more difficult. Someone has gone acronym crazy on Fukuda's team.