azrael Posted May 28, 2005 Posted May 28, 2005 I really loved how those 3 Murasame Pilots flew. Id give them mad props (if they were real) for flying that well. And that last move that one Murasame did.... Did I not say those Murasame pilots were good? They did a number on Minerva and now they took out Chaos. Even Kira diabled Chaos in 1 stroke. Athrun just isn't in his groove and he faced him twice? And hey...excuse my "noobness" but you all speak of story archs, and I think I get part of what you all are talkin about but could you please show me an example so that I comprehend???? Please.......... It was an example for what it was worth. But take for example, Minerva on Earth. Archangel in GS had a point when they were on Earth; get to Alaska. Minerva is just hooping around from base to base without any real purpose in mind. Hence, this arc is being dragged out. But that's 1 possible reason for GSD's low ratings.
kalvasflam Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 sounds like an interesting episode, but if what you guys are saying is true, what the heck happened to these Murasame pilots? Did they get replaced by superduper alien clones? Too bad it'll take another 4 hours to download. I really didn't think they did all that good in the previous outings. I'm sorry, but to the guys who said that they did a ton of damage to the Minerva, it was laughable what they actually did. Because the numbers they had in that episode, they should've sunk the Minerva without breaking a sweat. I think the problem is like others have said, the EA totally suck
Effect Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 Also what the hell happen to all the Windams behind Sting and Neo. They just completely disappeared. Not destoryed or anything, just gone. No disabling from Kira either whenit comes to them. Are they just not going to bother to show the Windams anymore? Also why in the hell are these Orb pilots so good. They are naturals last time I checked. Yet EA pilots, get the Stormtrooper effect and if not worse. Stormtroppers had to aim themselves. EA have targeting computers. Yup the EA sucks yet there is no reason why they actually should be sucking at all. That's the whole thing about it. If there was actually a legit, logicial, and common sense reason then it wouldn't be so bad but there isn't at all.
kalvasflam Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) After watching the episode, I think it's time for a new hierarchy of pilot skills. This is based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS: Kira = Stella (they couldn't beat each other, while Stella was not messed up) Shinn > Stella (when Stella was not messed up) 3xMurasame pilot > Sting Sting = Athrun Kira > Athrun Kira > however many number of Murasame pilots they throw at him Cagalli still useless, she launched several times, and as far as I can tell has done nothing So, new hierarchy: Shinn > Kira/Stella > 3xMursame pilots > Sting/Athrun > Cagalli Oh I didn't forget one last important pilot/group, it's called EA. EA is represented mainly by Neo and his merry band of Windams. Let's see, Neo is in charge, he sees Stella can't touch Freedom, but he sees Freedom's mothership in firing range. This is the place where the Freedom's pilot get his food and water, not to mention a comfortable bed and a hot spring. So instead of depriving him of the one thing that has sustained him, Neo continues to have Stella fire uselessly at Freedom. And of course, there is the band of Windams that basically sat back and did NOTHING. So this act of stupidity leads to the ultimate insult: Cagalli > EA Edited May 29, 2005 by kalvasflam
F360° Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 yeah this ep, has a whole bunch of stuff that would made you go, huh??? wtf???? but at least it was action packed. it was kinda strange that Neo didn't attack Shinn when he was next to shinn,, He went and pushed shinn backwards only to say that Stellar was inside Destroy and then watch as Shocked Shinn floating in mid air, and then resume his attack on Freedom.?????
phuqueue Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 After watching the episode, I think it's time for a new hierarchy of pilot skills. This is based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS:Kira = Stella (they couldn't beat each other, while Stella was not messed up) Shinn > Stella (when Stella was not messed up) 3xMurasame pilot > Sting Sting = Athrun Kira > Athrun Kira > however many number of Murasame pilots they throw at him Cagalli still useless, she launched several times, and as far as I can tell has done nothing So, new hierarchy: Shinn > Kira/Stella > 3xMursame pilots > Sting/Athrun > Cagalli Oh I didn't forget one last important pilot/group, it's called EA. EA is represented mainly by Neo and his merry band of Windams. Let's see, Neo is in charge, he sees Stella can't touch Freedom, but he sees Freedom's mothership in firing range. This is the place where the Freedom's pilot get his food and water, not to mention a comfortable bed and a hot spring. So instead of depriving him of the one thing that has sustained him, Neo continues to have Stella fire uselessly at Freedom. And of course, there is the band of Windams that basically sat back and did NOTHING. So this act of stupidity leads to the ultimate insult: Cagalli > EA I don't know how you can reason that Stellar is as good as Kira. When she was in Gaia, Kira batted her away as easily as he moved through everyone else. When she was in the most massively over-powered mobile suit ever with barriers that deflect any attack while Kira was getting triple teamed by her, Sting, and Neo, Freedom still didn't sustain any damage; the best you can say for her is she was also undamaged, which is more a virtue of her MS deflecting everything that came at it than her own piloting skills. So far, we've seen Kira completely own Shin once (episode 23), and we've seen Shin go toe to toe with Kira while he's in seed mode and Kira's not (episode 28). In episode 32, we saw him charge at Kira and swipe at Freedom a few times with his beamsaber, never once coming even close to landing a hit. Aside from one slash at Destroy with his beamsaber while he was going one on one with Stellar (ie, not getting attacked from three sides), Shin didn't do any better against her than Kira did, and he's never done anything to show that he's better than Kira is one on one. I don't think there's any reason to put anyone but Kira at the top of the hierarchy. I also don't really know about putting Athrun that low, but I really can't come up with anything to argue against it. I think it's still just good will from the job he did in SEED that I feel like he should be higher, since I have to admit he's not really shown anything in Destiny. In any case, we haven't been shown anything to suggest that Kira's not the best MS pilot in the whole damn Cosmic Era world, and particularly not that he's lower than someone who has never so much as scratched Freedom in three confrontations so far.
shiyao Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 "Kira > however many number of Murasame pilots they throw at him" hahaha that really cracked me up. and i presume heine westenfluss is right at the bottom, along with luminaria hawke?
hevangel2 Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 Ep 32 has the worst plot ever, so many logic errors. I just don't get it, how come Shin can get to Destory so easily? Shouldn't Destory is all protected by I-field shields from beam weapon and light sabers? Or Stella somehow forgot to turn on the defense system when she see the Impulse? When Neo told Shin Stella is piloting Destory, should Shin get really at Neo for breaking his promise? Instead he just standing there doing nothing. Archangel should fire the Longhammur(sp?) at Destory, the city has been already destoryed, yet Murrue still worried about hurting the city below, what a incompetent captain. When Kira chop off Neo's Windam, he signal Murrue to pick him up. How does Kira know Neo is Mwu? There is another star-war copy-cat in this ep. Kira use his light saber to defect incoming beam weapons just like the jedis. I didn't recall the light saber used this way in any previous gundam series I guess in the next eposide, we will finally see the long waited Freedom vs Impulse battle. Somehow I have a feeling that at the end of GSD will be totally different from Gundam traditions. The ZAFT will end up winning the war and rule over the whole earth. In GSDD, Orb and Archangel will turn to underground rebel like AEUG
azrael Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) You really can't compare anything to Stellar when she's in Destroy. Destroy leveled 3 cities on it's own. That thing is also quite big and has lots of barrels... Cagalli was on street level blocking civilians for Destroy's attacks. So I don't think this round counts. Also...Shinn you're so misguided...I bet he's gonna blame Freedom for all of his problems. The only thing in his mind is vengence. (I only say this because Kira is only gonna cause him more problems in S-Freedom, and Athrun in I-Justice). I bet he's gonna mention his family (not Kira's fault, they were caught in a crossfire), Heine (not Kira's fault, Heine should have been paying attention), and then Stellar (not Kira's fault, Shinn was the one who gave her back to EA in the first place, thereby condemning her to her fate). If it wasn't for Kira, Destroy would have made Shinn as toasty as Anakin. And the girl is a psycho, Kira did everybody a favor by taking her out. But, most likely, Shinn won't see it that way. I only say this because I know what's going to happen and with S-Freedom and I-Justice coming, it's not hard to see. Athrun warned Shinn and he didn't listen. Now look where we are. When Kira chop off Neo's Windam, he signal Murrue to pick him up. How does Kira know Neo is Mwu?There is another star-war copy-cat in this ep. Kira use his light saber to defect incoming beam weapons just like the jedis. I didn't recall the light saber used this way in any previous gundam series Take a wild guess on how Kira knows it's Mu.... Actually, they've been using the beam-saber-blocks-beams since SEED...Kira seems to be the only one who's crazy enough to do it. Edited May 29, 2005 by azrael
Morpheus Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 I just don't get it, how come Shin can get to Destory so easily?Shouldn't Destory is all protected by I-field shields from beam weapon and light sabers? Or Stella somehow forgot to turn on the defense system when she see the Impulse? Shinn probably knew the weakness of the barrier since he's once face the first EA mobile armor (the zamzazar I believe). Charging the destroy while its firing all the beam weapon is the only chance when the barrier is not activated, and its only a split second . The same thing when Shinn charges the Zamzazar, while he sacrificed the shield which leaves an opening for him to stab his beam saber directly at the cockpit.
phuqueue Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 Archangel should fire the Longhammur(sp?) at Destory, the city has been already destoryed, yet Murrue still worried about hurting the city below, what a incompetent captain. Since I don't speak Japanese, I wouldn't have caught it if she specifically said in the show that she wasn't firing the Lohengrin for fear of the city. I just assumed she knew that it was useless because the positron deflector would block it. Did she say she was trying to protect the city by not using it? When Kira chop off Neo's Windam, he signal Murrue to pick him up. How does Kira know Neo is Mwu? It wasn't the first time he realized it, either. Like azrael hinted, let's just say Kira's...special. Or at least, he's showing lots of signs of it. There is another star-war copy-cat in this ep. Kira use his light saber to defect incoming beam weapons just like the jedis. I didn't recall the light saber used this way in any previous gundam series As azrael mentioned, it was done a few times in later episodes of SEED (only by Kira, I think). I also could be wrong, since it's been a while since I watched either show, but I think I remember it coming up at some point in Victory Gundam and/or Turn A Gundam. It wasn't quite as Jedi-ish as in SEED, but I think we saw beam vs. beamsaber at some point in those shows, too. Or I might just be thinking of the time Usso crossed his beamsabers to create a beam cannon-ish weapon. I guess in the next eposide, we will finally see the long waited Freedom vs Impulse battle. Looked to me like next week is going to be a down episode. Dialogue, reflections, etc. If there's going to be a fight, it'll probably be pretty short, since there wasn't a hint at all of it in the preview. Unless the magazine previews say differently (I haven't been reading them, so I wouldn't know).
F360° Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 nest week will be MWUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!, I waited 32 eps for it.
kalvasflam Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) I don't know how you can reason that Stellar is as good as Kira. When she was in Gaia, Kira batted her away as easily as he moved through everyone else. When she was in the most massively over-powered mobile suit ever with barriers that deflect any attack while Kira was getting triple teamed by her, Sting, and Neo, Freedom still didn't sustain any damage; the best you can say for her is she was also undamaged, which is more a virtue of her MS deflecting everything that came at it than her own piloting skills. So far, we've seen Kira completely own Shin once (episode 23), and we've seen Shin go toe to toe with Kira while he's in seed mode and Kira's not (episode 28). In episode 32, we saw him charge at Kira and swipe at Freedom a few times with his beamsaber, never once coming even close to landing a hit. Aside from one slash at Destroy with his beamsaber while he was going one on one with Stellar (ie, not getting attacked from three sides), Shin didn't do any better against her than Kira did, and he's never done anything to show that he's better than Kira is one on one. I don't think there's any reason to put anyone but Kira at the top of the hierarchy. I also don't really know about putting Athrun that low, but I really can't come up with anything to argue against it. I think it's still just good will from the job he did in SEED that I feel like he should be higher, since I have to admit he's not really shown anything in Destiny. In any case, we haven't been shown anything to suggest that Kira's not the best MS pilot in the whole damn Cosmic Era world, and particularly not that he's lower than someone who has never so much as scratched Freedom in three confrontations so far. All I can say is read very very carefully my initial assumptions: Based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS: This means Stella (in Destroy) vs Kira (in Freedom). The episode was mostly Kira vs Stella, followed by Shinn vs Stella. So, all the other stuff doesn't count really. And if you think about it, if Kira can't even touch Destroy while Shinn did, that should tell you something. Use deductive reasoning, Kira focuses on Stella for what ten minutes of the show, and has nothing to show for it. Shinn comes in, and damages Destroy enough to see Stella in less than two minutes. Do the math. And let's see, who was in seed mode while not being able to touch Stella and who wasn't in seed mode while slicing up the armor in front of the cockpit? The only way you get around that is by saying Impulse is a better MS than Freedom. Is that what you're implying? Edited May 29, 2005 by kalvasflam
kalvasflam Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 You really can't compare anything to Stellar when she's in Destroy. Destroy leveled 3 cities on it's own. That thing is also quite big and has lots of barrels...Cagalli was on street level blocking civilians for Destroy's attacks. So I don't think this round counts. Also...Shinn you're so misguided...I bet he's gonna blame Freedom for all of his problems. The only thing in his mind is vengence. (I only say this because Kira is only gonna cause him more problems in S-Freedom, and Athrun in I-Justice). I bet he's gonna mention his family (not Kira's fault, they were caught in a crossfire), Heine (not Kira's fault, Heine should have been paying attention), and then Stellar (not Kira's fault, Shinn was the one who gave her back to EA in the first place, thereby condemning her to her fate). If it wasn't for Kira, Destroy would have made Shinn as toasty as Anakin. And the girl is a psycho, Kira did everybody a favor by taking her out. But, most likely, Shinn won't see it that way. I only say this because I know what's going to happen and with S-Freedom and I-Justice coming, it's not hard to see. Athrun warned Shinn and he didn't listen. Now look where we are. When Kira chop off Neo's Windam, he signal Murrue to pick him up. How does Kira know Neo is Mwu?There is another star-war copy-cat in this ep. Kira use his light saber to defect incoming beam weapons just like the jedis. I didn't recall the light saber used this way in any previous gundam series Take a wild guess on how Kira knows it's Mu.... Actually, they've been using the beam-saber-blocks-beams since SEED...Kira seems to be the only one who's crazy enough to do it. Ok, I can buy it if we take the Stella part away, and yeah, I forgot about cagalli saving civies... it's very easy to overlook an MS that hasn't really done anything at all in the GSD series. Of course Shinn is single minded, his mind is on the fact that he needs a girl friend to show up the boss. How else do you explain him not remembering Stella killing the orange haired dud. He probably won't even realize it's his fault that countless civilians have died. And all will be forgiven. In reality, Shinn would be facing the death penalty for what he did. The episode is indeed full of plot holes, thankfully I never made the mistake of assuming GS series had any real plot. But on the other hand, it was nice to see things get blown up.
HG Blows Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 After watching the episode, I think it's time for a new hierarchy of pilot skills. This is based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS:Kira = Stella (they couldn't beat each other, while Stella was not messed up) Shinn > Stella (when Stella was not messed up) 3xMurasame pilot > Sting Sting = Athrun Kira > Athrun Kira > however many number of Murasame pilots they throw at him Cagalli still useless, she launched several times, and as far as I can tell has done nothing So, new hierarchy: Shinn > Kira/Stella > 3xMursame pilots > Sting/Athrun > Cagalli Oh I didn't forget one last important pilot/group, it's called EA. EA is represented mainly by Neo and his merry band of Windams. Let's see, Neo is in charge, he sees Stella can't touch Freedom, but he sees Freedom's mothership in firing range. This is the place where the Freedom's pilot get his food and water, not to mention a comfortable bed and a hot spring. So instead of depriving him of the one thing that has sustained him, Neo continues to have Stella fire uselessly at Freedom. And of course, there is the band of Windams that basically sat back and did NOTHING. So this act of stupidity leads to the ultimate insult: Cagalli > EA From what I saw in this ep (and I saw it half heartily while watching tv at the same time), Kira was preoccupied a good part of the fight by Neo and Sting, plus he's got the whole disable, but not kill style. Shinn flew in without any distraction and went for the kill shot. You can argue that if Kira went with that strategy right away, he could of been just as successful as Shin. Also, you can't really measure skills, because there's always descrepencies. Just look at how Yzak toasted the two druggies when both Athrun and Kira were having trouble with them. I also think your ranking of Athrun is a little harsh. He's gonna be good again once he gets his head around. That harem of girls he's dragging around is wearing him out.
azrael Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) The best comparison fro Kira vs Stellar is Freedom vs. Gaia. And we know what happened there. I'm gonna write this episode to plot. It really serves the plot so there are a bunch of problems. Beyond that, meh. But to indulge myself...Freedom was doing a hit-and-evade tactic. Then he had to deal with Chaos and Neo. Shinn just went straight in. He didn't have to deal with Sting or Neo. Edit:. flets.gundam-seed.net has the listing up for next week's episode (Spoilers, translated from Seed-Forums): After the battle with Destroy, Shinn places Stellar's body in a lake, because scary things wouldn't come anymore and she can rest in peace...Shinn feels painful in not being able to protect something he wants to protect, and he swears revenge on Freedom. He started to anaylse the battle data of Freedom with the help from Rey. On the other hand, on the Archangel, Neo, who is captured, regained consciousness...His appearance is Mwu...But it seems that he lost his memory...And Murrue cannot accept it... My earlier statement remains. Revenge isn't the answer. Shinn is shares the fault of Stellar's fate just as much as Kira does and Neo/EA do. The problem is, he doesn't see it. He does think ahead nor does he reflect/analyze what he does. Oh well.... And it looks like one of those crazy Chinese rumors was true, either that or he's really faking it... Edited May 29, 2005 by azrael
Legend of TSXer Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 nest week will be MWUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!, I waited 32 eps for it. Dear God so have I! We want MWU!!!!!!! We want MWU!!!!
macplus Posted May 29, 2005 Posted May 29, 2005 (edited) Ok, I guess I can't hold myself anymore, I found GSD to be a really well drawn series with not great but good music, nice character design and again good but not great mecha... will this makes it a great series??? nope, it feels like the producers are writing every episode the day before it goes out, it's a complete mess and they keep putting new UC copied Mobile suits again and again to fill the lack of plot, I like that we get battle filled episodes and sexy chicks like lunamaria but the sheer disorder of plots, ideas and the weird way the characters are handled makes this series a show that tends to be anoying quite often, the writters should choose a few of the plot lines that have appeared and continue in an orderly manner with those, killing the pussy that Shinn is would make things even better, he's a character that simply doesn't do anything for the series appart of getting on the nerves of most of the viewers. Seed was IMHO a very good show, better to what I was especting and although GSD started just fine it went in so many ways that it just doesn't feel like a worthy sequel. My two cents Edited May 30, 2005 by macplus
Effect Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 This is why when I think back on it, I think the only reason Gundam SEED was as good as it was, was because for the most part it was a retelling of the original gundam series but with some differences. There was only a small part of the series that was really original so it didn't suffer that much. SEED Destiny on the other hand started out great. I don't think anyone can really deny that it started out well with great action, pacing, and evne plot but it quickly dropped. No one could call this a copy of Zeta, even in small parts I think. Sure you can force some connections. Other then that, it isn't copying anything and it's really falling apart when it comes to plot, story, etc. Granted one shouldn't look for complete realism in a Gundam series or any anime series really but there should be logical things in how characters respond or do certain things I would think. The thing that annoys me about Sting being taken out is that they spend so much time playing up the "only a Gundam can match or take out a Gundam" and we end up with him being taken out by three grunts with faces, not even names. They can't even stay true to their own position on things. Had the whole Gundam being able to be taken out by any suit situation been there from the beginning and presented as such with all sides being treated fairly when it comes to combat it would be acceptable but it really isn't in this case. Orb pilots are natural, why is it that they are able to presented well in battle but not the EA. The show is filled to the top with plot devices that at time don't make any sense. That's not to say other Gundam shows don't have them cause they do but I don't think they've been as in your face or illogical as the ones in Destiny have been. Though I'm looking forward to seeing how the Neo/Mwu situation plays out. Mainly because he was my favorite character in SEED but Neo is a crappy character in Destiny. He was good in the first few episodes. Maybe he needs to be back on the Girty Lue with his mobile armor to be effective in a battle and out of a mobile suit. It really does suit him more then a mobile suit.
Panon Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 He probably won't even realize it's his fault that countless civilians have died. And how do you come up with that insane piece of logic? I sure hope you're not going to suggest Shinn is to blame for civilians being killed by Destroy because he returned Stellar, since Destroy would have been put into action regardless of whether she had been returned or not. The thing that annoys me about Sting being taken out is that they spend so much time playing up the "only a Gundam can match or take out a Gundam" and we end up with him being taken out by three grunts with faces, not even names. They can't even stay true to their own position on things. Had the whole Gundam being able to be taken out by any suit situation been there from the beginning I love how fickle Gundams fans are. They complain about the how invincible Gundams seem and that the "only a Gundam can defeat a Gundam" aspect is a bad thing until a non-Gundam actually takes one out, then they complain about that instead. I would consider a group of Zaku's using teamwork to rip apart Gundams early in the series plenty as plenty of precidence for a team of Murasame's to make similar short work of a single Gundam. Just the same as how people will defend Kira for this episode. He's usually the ultimate in trying to solve things in non-lethal ways and Shinn is bad for using violence, yet in this episode it's the opposite as Kira presses the attack against Stellar when she had actually stopped firing, and ends up sending her into a craze twice while Shinn tried (with success) to stop her non-lethally.
Freedomatrix Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 (edited) GSD really does seem to be going south very fast, or in the last 22 episodes - slow as hell The writers are totally forgetting what made SEED a somewhat interesting series - balance character developement with the steady plot & having a fight in atleast 25% of the episodes that actually progressed the series. So far in GSD we've had 10 - 12 good starting episodes, 15 of character development, 2 episodes that made no sense at all, and 3 that had so much action in them that we could burst I really didn't mind the boredom in half of the first 230 minutes because the series was just getting started. But when they gave us 400 more minutes of total boredom (of which more than half was just reused sences from GS & prior GSD episodes) with about 70 minutes of fighting stuck in the middle somewhere (& the 30 or so minutes of garbage)....well....no wonder the ratings are so darn low. ....& yes I WANT MWU TOO!!!! Edited May 30, 2005 by Freedomatrix
Legend of TSXer Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Well how bad have the ratings dropped??? Does anyone have numbers to compare now from the beggening? I must admit that Im bascially getting by month to month with one action ep for that particular month. Well close enough to a month. the story is getting stale to me cuz it is going NOWHERE and fast! Well they got the "Shin is a @$$hole" part good. I hope he falls from grace and FAST! Hes got too much of a big head and hes gonna get mad at Freedom? For stopping an insanely powerful Gundam? It is Shin's fault shes piloting it. Yah EAF would have still used it without her, but than Shin wouldent have really cared if Kira or himself had destroyed Destroy. I havent wanted a character more dead than those two crazy bros from Gundam X. Yuna is high on that list too. Is Shin's popularity doing good at all in Japan? Also, Minerva recovered Gaia right? Whose gonna use that now? Its a perfectly good MS and damnit they should use it. But supposedly everyone on Minerva will get a new Gundam upgrade. Gaia shall be left to colllect dust?? Point, how bad are the ratings?
kalvasflam Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 He probably won't even realize it's his fault that countless civilians have died. And how do you come up with that insane piece of logic? I sure hope you're not going to suggest Shinn is to blame for civilians being killed by Destroy because he returned Stellar, since Destroy would have been put into action regardless of whether she had been returned or not. yep, Destroy would've been put into action, but the fact of the matter is Shinn gave Stella back, and the result was however many people died because of Stella's piloting Destroy. Nothing anyone can do to deny that. It's called the bigger picture. Because if Stella killed even one person after he went back, Shinn would've been responsible for it knowing what he already knew. Let's look at the facts: 1) Stella is a killing machine... whether it's her fault or not. She has killed over and over again. 2) Stella is going back into the hands of the "enemy" who has turned her into the killing machine with a "promise" from that same enemy that she won't kill again. So knowing all of this, would a rational person do what Shinn did? Think of this analogy. Let's say you have this dog your very anti-social neighbor owns, it's a vicious psychopathic mutt that to your knowledge has maimed and killed. You like the dog because you think it's cute, and it likes you for some odd reason. The dog gets hurt, you try to help it, but in the end only your hope for the dog to get better is to give the dog back to the anti-social neighbor. Then two days later, with you watching, the dog tears the throat off of a little three year old who was just a bystander. Knowing this, you can always claim it's not your fault, you were being compassionate. But that's a lie, you know its history, and in spite of it, you returned it to an environment where it can continue it's ways. If you think that's something that's ok, then there are several very large bridges I'd like to sell to you.
phuqueue Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 All I can say is read very very carefully my initial assumptions:Based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS: Yeah, but that ignores all the prior evidence we've gotten that contradicts your hierarchy, which is based only on a battle with a mobile suit that even I could use to take out some enemies. And besides that, even based on that one battle, you still can't justify putting Shin ahead of Kira, because when he tried to attack Kira, he didn't even come close to hitting Freedom. The one on one matchup should trump their comparative performances against the same enemy. And if it's only based on that one battle, you can't really rank Athrun or Cagalli at all, since Athrun didn't have a MS and Cagalli, as azrael mentioned, only shielded civilians without fighting herself. This means Stella (in Destroy) vs Kira (in Freedom). The episode was mostly Kira vs Stella, followed by Shinn vs Stella. So, all the other stuff doesn't count really. And if you think about it, if Kira can't even touch Destroy while Shinn did, that should tell you something. Use deductive reasoning, Kira focuses on Stella for what ten minutes of the show, and has nothing to show for it. Shinn comes in, and damages Destroy enough to see Stella in less than two minutes. Do the math. And let's see, who was in seed mode while not being able to touch Stella and who wasn't in seed mode while slicing up the armor in front of the cockpit? The only way you get around that is by saying Impulse is a better MS than Freedom. Is that what you're implying? It was Kira vs. Stellar, Sting, Neo, and even Shin (if only briefly), and then it was Shin vs. Stellar. The only other MS that ever fired in Shin's general direction was Neo's Windam, and he did it to get Shin's attention, not to actually hit Impulse. Shin tried to shoot Stellar and saw that Destroy deflected the beams. Kira tried the same thing when he first showed up. Unlike Kira, Shin wasn't getting triple-teamed, so he just went straight in with his beam saber. When Kira tried the same thing later, he took out Destroy (although based on your original post, you would argue that doesn't count since Stellar was really screwed in the head right then, and perhaps that's a valid argument, but I digress). All I'm "implying" (more like, saying it straight out) is that Shin had a much easier time against Stellar because he was only fighting Stellar, while Kira was fighting at various times or even simultaneously, four different people. Just the same as how people will defend Kira for this episode. He's usually the ultimate in trying to solve things in non-lethal ways and Shinn is bad for using violence, yet in this episode it's the opposite as Kira presses the attack against Stellar when she had actually stopped firing, and ends up sending her into a craze twice while Shinn tried (with success) to stop her non-lethally. But she hadn't stopped firing. She was about to fire again, and Kira went in and stopped her before she took out Shin and whatever was left of the city. He can't really help it that she went crazy again; she went crazy just because she saw him, because of everything Neo had already told her. Truth was, he didn't kill Neo, he wouldn't have killed Sting if he had been fighting him, and he wasn't going to kill her if he could avoid it. But she saw Freedom, remembered Neo being nonlethally disabled (but didn't realize it was nonlethal), and went crazy when Neo's death programming kicked in. We know Kira's not completely beyond killing if it can't be avoided, so I didn't see this episode as a tremendous departure from his normal character. He doesn't kill grunt suits anymore because a GINN or a Murasame doesn't really pose any threat to him or anyone else, but taking out Destroy's chest cannon was imperative even if it meant Stellar's death.
Panon Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 But she hadn't stopped firing. She was about to fire again, and Kira went in and stopped her before she took out Shin and whatever was left of the city. That was the second time and was pretty unavoidable. The first time however when Neo grabbed Shinn and told him that Stellar was the pilot, she had stopped firing... and Kira promptly pressed the attack and hit her almost directly in the cockpit, yelled at Shinn for not continuing to attack, then took down Neo when he defended Stellar, which of course sent her into a rage again.
kalvasflam Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 All I can say is read very very carefully my initial assumptions:Based on the last time we see these pilots fighting in their most recent MS: Yeah, but that ignores all the prior evidence we've gotten that contradicts your hierarchy, which is based only on a battle with a mobile suit that even I could use to take out some enemies. And besides that, even based on that one battle, you still can't justify putting Shin ahead of Kira, because when he tried to attack Kira, he didn't even come close to hitting Freedom. The one on one matchup should trump their comparative performances against the same enemy. And if it's only based on that one battle, you can't really rank Athrun or Cagalli at all, since Athrun didn't have a MS and Cagalli, as azrael mentioned, only shielded civilians without fighting herself. Think I'll just spell it out since it's still not obvious. Piloting skills are not absolutes, which is why you have hierarchy that change and evolve over time. Thing would've been different earlier, and you do understand that this is kind of a joke right? We're talking about the piloting skills of cartoon characters, things that can change depending on what the guy who draws the things feel like. If the writer wanted, I'm sure evidence can be provided that Wile E Coyote could smack around Kira Yamato any day of the week. Oh never mind, you can't even understand the premise I put this on, it's not worth the effort to keep explaining... i.e. last time we see these pilots fighting isn't limited to just this last episode.
Freedomatrix Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Gunota has the GSD ratings for each 4 episode span. It really wasn't surprising to see that the first episode was 8.2. But it will probably only reach 7-8 when episode 50 rolls around. I even saw one at 2.8 which is death. Most hover around 5-6 which isn't too bad but is still horrible compared to GS.
azrael Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Knowing this, you can always claim it's not your fault, you were being compassionate. But that's a lie, you know its history, and in spite of it, you returned it to an environment where it can continue it's ways. If you think that's something that's ok, then there are several very large bridges I'd like to sell to you. I don't know if you can say Shinn caused the death of all those civilians. That's a stretch, a rational stretch but a stretch, nonetheless. The fault really goes back to Stellar. Shinn should have realized Stellar was a weapon. He's not to blame for seeing the human side and being compassionate. But the part that didn't click for Shinn was the realization that Stellar is weapon. She stopped being a victim long ago. He just sees his girl. He doesn't realize what Stellar was in the eyes of the enemy. Shinn may or may not have been responsible for the death of civilians, but the point is, he was responsible for Stellar.
phuqueue Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 But she hadn't stopped firing. She was about to fire again, and Kira went in and stopped her before she took out Shin and whatever was left of the city. That was the second time and was pretty unavoidable. The first time however when Neo grabbed Shinn and told him that Stellar was the pilot, she had stopped firing... and Kira promptly pressed the attack and hit her almost directly in the cockpit, yelled at Shinn for not continuing to attack, then took down Neo when he defended Stellar, which of course sent her into a rage again. Okay, I was thinking of the later part. When you mentioned that Shin was trying to stop her non-lethally, I only thought of the part where that was actually going on, since she stopped firing all on her own (presumably because hitting Shin would have also meant hitting Neo) at the time you're talking about. So that's my mistake. Think I'll just spell it out since it's still not obvious.Piloting skills are not absolutes, which is why you have hierarchy that change and evolve over time. Thing would've been different earlier, and you do understand that this is kind of a joke right? We're talking about the piloting skills of cartoon characters, things that can change depending on what the guy who draws the things feel like. If the writer wanted, I'm sure evidence can be provided that Wile E Coyote could smack around Kira Yamato any day of the week. laugh.gif Oh never mind, you can't even understand the premise I put this on, it's not worth the effort to keep explaining... i.e. last time we see these pilots fighting isn't limited to just this last episode. Yes, I suppose you can't be a completely condescending a-hole until you play the "This is only a cartoon!" card, as if you're not the one that came up with this whole thing in the first place. Obviously, piloting skills aren't absolute, but that still doesn't change the fact that putting Shin ahead of Kira, based on any encounter between them, is illogical. My mistake confining it all to episode 32, though; I confess to sometimes only skimming past the first line or two of a post to get to the meat of its content, so words like "most recent" are the ones that stick out in my mind and I don't pay attention to the rest of it (ie, that it referred to "most recent MS" in any episode, rather than just "most recent episode"). That's my fault, but it only really matters as far as peripheral points like Athrun and Cagalli go. Doesn't change anything about the main point of contention, that your Shin/Stellar/Kira ranking is messed up.
Ataru Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 It really is Shinn's fault that many of those civilians died. If he hadn't brought her back, he would have fought someone else, yes. I'm not sure if just anyone is capable of piloting it though, maybe only another extended. But let's say it's just anyone. Either pilot skills are completely meaningless in that thing, or throwing some random pilot in there would make the flying hand attacks suddenly about as dangerous as a couple normal pilots, as far as someone like Kira is concerned. (if the hands were completely computer controlled, sheesh, they should be making armies of flying hands, not mses) So Kira wouldn't be nearly as pressed and probably could have taken everything himself. Ok, now let's throw that all out the window and ignore Kira. If it were just Shinn, he wouldn't have been stunned like he was with Stellar. A quick repeat of his slash would result in a dead pilot and a non-functional destroy, meaning no more city-frying shots that probably killed thousands even just then. Lastly, even with the turn of events as they actually happened up to that point, Shinn should have made the decision to kill Stellar in order to save everyone else. If not for Kira everyone would have been completely screwed, not just those thousands of civilians I mentioned before. It's a painful decision but one he had to make, and his weakness doesn't excuse him from what his indecisiveness brought and almost brought. All in all, give me Four and the Psyco gundam any day. BTW, anyone catch the 0079 homage in there? At the beginning of the episode, watching the carnage unfold on a monitor, one of the characters (forgot the name) said nearly the exact same thing Amuro said in 0079 when he saw everything getting trashed by the big zam. attouteki janaidesuka/attouteki janaika meaning literally "it's overwhelming" but actually more like "It's completely one-sided".
Anubis Posted May 30, 2005 Author Posted May 30, 2005 Basically the bottom line is NO ONE is completely innocent at this point in the show. Definately not Steller, definately not Shinn, definately not Neo (of which Mu has some serious explaining to do), not even Kira and the AA. Just about everyone has done stuff they either weren't supposed to do or shouldn't have done ever since the Minerva left Carpentaria and the AA launched from Orb.
Legend of TSXer Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Basically the bottom line is NO ONE is completely innocent at this point in the show. Definately not Steller, definately not Shinn, definately not Neo (of which Mu has some serious explaining to do), not even Kira and the AA. Just about everyone has done stuff they either weren't supposed to do or shouldn't have done ever since the Minerva left Carpentaria and the AA launched from Orb. Agreed! Still cant get over Shin and his...his...well him being gawd dam SHIN! I cant wait for the day he gets messed up good in his MS.
eugimon Posted May 30, 2005 Posted May 30, 2005 Basically the bottom line is NO ONE is completely innocent at this point in the show. Definately not Steller, definately not Shinn, definately not Neo (of which Mu has some serious explaining to do), not even Kira and the AA. Just about everyone has done stuff they either weren't supposed to do or shouldn't have done ever since the Minerva left Carpentaria and the AA launched from Orb. Agreed! Still cant get over Shin and his...his...well him being gawd dam SHIN! I cant wait for the day he gets messed up good in his MS. at this point, I'm only watching this show in the hopes of Kira taking whiny boy shin apart.
Recommended Posts