Official Gundam Seed Destiny Thread

[Druna Skass]

Point 2. You're not looking at the scenario, the premise is that Orb says no thanks to diplomatic efforts. EA would have no choice but to go military.  Then EA is risking no gain and losses in taking over Orb.  You were fond of using the special mobile suit exception earlier, so, now AA and Freedom comes into play in defense of Orb, suddenly, your losses start to shoot up in addition to no gain.  At which point it's costing even more to do a military takeover that gets nothing tangible in return. 

I'll agree if you're limiting the option to diplomatic efforts and threat of military.  But the second you go military option, then the equation doesn't add up any more. 

Your argument: neither EA or ZAFT gets Orb if Orb goes down makes no sense.  Because it will take material effort to put down Orb, material effort that might not get anything especially in context of recent past. 

Think of it like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds.  It's not a rational action.

Are you talking the first war or the second war?

Either way both occations the Alliance had no knowledge that Archangel or Freedom were even at Orb. Hence it never factored into the Alliance's plans. I'm trying to look at this situation the way the Alliance's high command would look at it.

How does the argument that if Orb goes scorched earth neither the Alliance or ZAFT gets them as an ally, not make sence? Let look at it, Orb destorys it's own R&D facilites, it's gone now, not in the hands of the Alliance or ZAFT. Neither sides can collaborate with Orb to fight the other side.

"like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action."

So are you saying it would take ALL of the Alliance's resources to occupy Orb? As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once. If you don't think numbers can't be a big factor just go look at WW2. The Earth Alliance is made up of five big superstates, it would take a fraction of their resources to take Orb.

Edited March 29, 2005 by Druna Skass

[azrael]

ZAFT was also first to impliment beam weaponry in a mass-produced unit with their aquatic MS.

Not really. The ZAFT underwater MS use this:

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/ba...tml#phononmaser

EA and ORB still hold the title for first to have beam weaponry in standard mass production. The Phonon Maser isn't quite beam weapon technology....

Based on just the facts, MS technology indicates that they have no more potential than EA or ZAFT. I don't buy the argument that Murasame is more advanced, if it's just the ability to transform, wonderful... what exactly does that buy you? There is no proof at all that Murasames are superior to Zakus or Windams in performance.

Now where did I say the Murasame was more advanced than the ZAKUs or Windams? I said, the Murasames must be economically feasible otherwise ORB won't have them. EA and ZAFT don't have mass-produced transformable MSs, so that must mean something about the Murasame. (Thank you DarkPhoenix, nice to know some else is paying attention)

As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once.

Even with Freedom, Archangel, Strike, Buster and Justice....they can only do so much. In the 2nd wave, all of them were there and ORB still lost.

[kalvasflam]

Point 2. You're not looking at the scenario, the premise is that Orb says no thanks to diplomatic efforts. EA would have no choice but to go military.  Then EA is risking no gain and losses in taking over Orb.  You were fond of using the special mobile suit exception earlier, so, now AA and Freedom comes into play in defense of Orb, suddenly, your losses start to shoot up in addition to no gain.  At which point it's costing even more to do a military takeover that gets nothing tangible in return. 

I'll agree if you're limiting the option to diplomatic efforts and threat of military.  But the second you go military option, then the equation doesn't add up any more. 

Your argument: neither EA or ZAFT gets Orb if Orb goes down makes no sense.  Because it will take material effort to put down Orb, material effort that might not get anything especially in context of recent past. 

Think of it like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds.  It's not a rational action.

Are you talking the first war or the second war?

Either way both occations the Alliance had no knowledge that Archangel or Freedom were even at Orb. Hence it never factored into the Alliance's plans. I'm trying to look at this situation the way the Alliance's high command would look at it.

How does the argument that if Orb goes scorched earth neither the Alliance or ZAFT gets them as an ally, not make sence? Let look at it, Orb destorys it's own R&D facilites, it's gone now, not in the hands of the Alliance or ZAFT. Neither sides can collaborate with Orb to fight the other side.

"like spending limited funds to buy a lotto ticket when you barely make enough to eat, at best you're hoping to win against all odds. It's not a rational action."

So are you saying it would take ALL of the Alliance's resources to occupy Orb? As I said before even with Freedom and Archangel there, they can only do so much, they can't be at several places at once. If you don't think numbers can't be a big factor just go look at WW2. The Earth Alliance is made up of five big superstates, it would take a fraction of their resources to take Orb.

Talking purely about GSD.

Only as purely a military takeover without the second side getting involved. I'm not saying it takes all of the EA to take Orb, I'm saying EA have enough problems they can't afford to just casually throw around resources and make new enemies without a solid guaranteed gain in the venture. It take non trivial material factors to take over Orb. If EA is truly all that big, and Orb is that trivial, why waste time pulling it in in the first place. It's trivial.

Even if you take away Freedom and AA. It's a fight that requires resources with high probability of no gain. Risk vs Reward is the point I'm making.

The amount of force to take over Orb either trivial because Orb is trivial, or non-trivial because Orb is non-trivial, you can't have it both ways. The rewards are not obvious in this case. So, do you take a risk?

Let's take a different analogy from the last.

- There is a box with something in it. (read as unknown rewards for taking Orb)

- In order to retrieve that something, you have to stick your hand in the box. (read as military action)

- It is a sure thing that your hand will get hurt to some degree when you stick it into the box, but you're not sure exactly how much. (read Orb will fight back and inflict losses).

- There is a probability that the act of sticking the hand into the box will destroy whatever is of value. (read self destruct of valuable assets)

So, then the question is, do you stick your hand in that box?

The answer is yes if and only if you meet the following conditions:

- the reward is well defined

- the reward is great enough to offset losses incurred

- good probability of obtaining reward based on past history

The speculation on what Orb has is just not good enough. The impasse we're at seem to be just what the Orb really has to offer.

Since we will never get agreement, I think we'll end up debating in circles.

Finally, in terms of objectives you had, is the objective to obtain the resources of Orb or simply deny it to the other side? You can't have it both ways. These are conflicting objectives to start with. The former implies you need the resources at Orb, the later imply you don't care what happens to it as long as the other side doesn't get it. It factors significantly into what resources EA high command would spend in accomplishing the said objectives.

Edited March 29, 2005 by kalvasflam

[kalvasflam]

Now where did I say the Murasame was more advanced than the ZAKUs or Windams? I said, the Murasames must be economically feasible otherwise ORB won't have them. EA and ZAFT don't have mass-produced transformable MSs, so that must mean something about the Murasame. (Thank you DarkPhoenix, nice to know some else is paying attention)

So, what you just said is you have no clue what advantage Orb has because of the ability to produce transformable MS. i.e. it can transform, therefore Orb must hold some advantage or it must mean something. But you have no idea what it means. But it must be an advantage because ZAFT and EA don't mass produce transformable MS. Or are you saying it's not an advantage at all to be able to mass produce transformable MS?

Since you are ruling out that Murasames are superior. We can close down that one avenue then. Or did you not mean that? Again. Clarify... superior or not compared to Zakus and Windams?

Economically feasible? What does that mean? Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS? In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

[GRAND CANNON]

Naughty pic for Graham and the other Luna lovers.

Any other SEED Ladies?

[DarkPhoenix]

Economically feasible? What does that mean? Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS? In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Transformable MS almost never reach mass production due to the costs of the extra mechanisms required for the transformation. Both manufacturing it, and supplying maintenance to it.

Orb, however, has a mass-produced transforming mobilesuit in addition to its Astray units. This suggests that they have superior manufacturing facilities that allow for the manufacture of transforming MS without excessive rises in costs per unit.

[Bariaburu Faita]

Economically feasible?  What does that mean?  Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS?  In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Transformable MS almost never reach mass production due to the costs of the extra mechanisms required for the transformation. Both manufacturing it, and supplying maintenance to it.

Orb, however, has a mass-produced transforming mobilesuit in addition to its Astray units. This suggests that they have superior manufacturing facilities that allow for the manufacture of transforming MS without excessive rises in costs per unit.

I hope you two dont mind me joining into this very well thought out and interesting conversation.

The Murasame might not be as economicaly feasable as you think. Orb could have undertaken the project dispite the likely high cost of the unit.

Orb has been set up simmilar to Japan. Small landmass and high technological base. So per capita income is likely higher than the average Alliance member. So their defense budget would be small on an absolute scale, but relative to the size of the land they must defend quite large.

So they might decide that rather than spending money for 2 cost effective land and air units, combining the 2 into one cost ineffective transforming unit would be worth it.

Less hangar space would be needed, and less pilots. Land and personnel being a premium at Orb.

[Druna Skass]

Finally, in terms of objectives you had, is the objective to obtain the resources of Orb or simply deny it to the other side? You can't have it both ways. These are conflicting objectives to start with. The former implies you need the resources at Orb, the later imply you don't care what happens to it as long as the other side doesn't get it. It factors significantly into what resources EA high command would spend in accomplishing the said objectives.

The former implies you need the resources at Orb

Not nessesarily. The Alliance doesn't need Orb, but it would be an excellent asset, and having it could certainly make life easier. The Alliance doesn't need Orb's resources it wants Orb's resource. And if they can't get it then taking it out would make life easier as well by eliminating a potential threat and denying that resource to the enemy.

They do not contradict and yes you can have both ways. See going after Orb is a win win situation for the Alliance. Orb joins the Alliance, Alliance wins. Orb refuses and gets crushed again, Alliance wins.

[kalvasflam]

Not nessesarily. The Alliance doesn't need Orb, but it would be an excellent asset, and having it could certainly make life easier. The Alliance doesn't need Orb's resources it wants Orb's resource. And if they can't get it then taking it out would make life easier as well by eliminating a potential threat and denying that resource to the enemy.

They do not contradict and yes you can have both ways. See going after Orb is a win win situation for the Alliance. Orb joins the Alliance, Alliance wins. Orb refuses and gets crushed again, Alliance wins.

We agree that it may be an asset, as in it doesn't hurt to have another ally. But, it's a different track you take depending on whether you get them through diplomacy (getting their assets without losing your own) or getting them through warfare.

The objectives are different:

If you want to have the asset by force, you plan the battle in a way to preserve the asset. It incurs losses on your assault force because you have to physically take and hold an objective.

If you want to take it out, you can stand off bombard without encroachment and having to fight through all the defenses. i.e. reduce losses. If you want to put it in context. They could use nukes. That will wipe out Orb without any losses at all on the part of their conventional military.

It's fundamentally contradictory objectives due to the potential losses in troops. What this means is you have to carefully quantify and analyze the risk vs reward options for launching a full scale invasion.

The middle ground doesn't exist. You can't say, well, we'll try to take it by force, but if it doesn't work, then we'll blow it up. Because at that point, you would've already lost troops trying to take it. What you propose would be militarily wasteful and insane especially when you have the option of blowing it up without losing any conventional forces in the first place.

And the kicker here is, you have no idea how much troops EA would lose in an assault during the GSD time frame. At this point, you would consider EA and ZAFT to be equal. If it turns out you lose an unacceptable amount of conventional forces, then you suddenly put yourself vs your main enemy.

[kalvasflam]

Economically feasible?  What does that mean?  Are you saying Orb has a superior economy compared to ZAFT and EA because the latter two do not mass produce transformable MS?  In other words, define the words economically feasible in the context of been able to produce transformable MS compared in relation to ZAFT and EA not mass producing them.

Transformable MS almost never reach mass production due to the costs of the extra mechanisms required for the transformation. Both manufacturing it, and supplying maintenance to it.

Orb, however, has a mass-produced transforming mobilesuit in addition to its Astray units. This suggests that they have superior manufacturing facilities that allow for the manufacture of transforming MS without excessive rises in costs per unit.

Faita, thanks for putting things in such a nice form. You are looking at it from a point of view of practical usage versus functionality. Kind of like having an expensive multirole aircraft capable of bombing and dogfights vs cheaper airplanes designed either specifically for dogfights or for bombing.

Phoenix, in addition to that concept, the issue is also a matter of economics. Superior manufacturing and maintanence capability might in turn mean significantly more expensive and hence not easily mass produced. The problem is you have no idea the expense involved in producing a Murasame vs a Windam.

As already pointed out, in terms of capabilities, a Windam is not too far different from a Murasame, slightly different roles, but similar capabilities. But if a Windam costs half as much to maintain and to service, then Orb's manufacturing ability is suddenly awfully pathetic. At best, you can say you don't know that Orb has superior manufacturing and you don't know the industrial capabilties of EA/PLANT. But you can't jump to the conclusion Orb has superior tech based on the fact they've mass produced Murasame. Keep in mind, they probably don't have the same number of Murasame as EA has Windams or ZAFT has Zakus.

[Druna Skass]

Not nessesarily. The Alliance doesn't need Orb, but it would be an excellent asset, and having it could certainly make life easier. The Alliance doesn't need Orb's resources it wants Orb's resource. And if they can't get it then taking it out would make life easier as well by eliminating a potential threat and denying that resource to the enemy.

They do not contradict and yes you can have both ways. See going after Orb is a win win situation for the Alliance. Orb joins the Alliance, Alliance wins. Orb refuses and gets crushed again, Alliance wins.

We agree that it may be an asset, as in it doesn't hurt to have another ally. But, it's a different track you take depending on whether you get them through diplomacy (getting their assets without losing your own) or getting them through warfare.

The objectives are different:

If you want to have the asset by force, you plan the battle in a way to preserve the asset. It incurs losses on your assault force because you have to physically take and hold an objective.

If you want to take it out, you can stand off bombard without encroachment and having to fight through all the defenses. i.e. reduce losses. If you want to put it in context. They could use nukes. That will wipe out Orb without any losses at all on the part of their conventional military.

It's fundamentally contradictory objectives due to the potential losses in troops. What this means is you have to carefully quantify and analyze the risk vs reward options for launching a full scale invasion.

The middle ground doesn't exist. You can't say, well, we'll try to take it by force, but if it doesn't work, then we'll blow it up. Because at that point, you would've already lost troops trying to take it. What you propose would be militarily wasteful and insane especially when you have the option of blowing it up without losing any conventional forces in the first place.

And the kicker here is, you have no idea how much troops EA would lose in an assault during the GSD time frame. At this point, you would consider EA and ZAFT to be equal. If it turns out you lose an unacceptable amount of conventional forces, then you suddenly put yourself vs your main enemy.

Where did I say it would be the Alliance blowing up Orb? It would be Orb blowing their stuff up again to keep it out of Alliance hands. The Alliance would like to take Orb intact. If anyone is doing any blowing up, it's Orb, and if anyone is getting blown up, it's Orb again.

Let me try this again.

OMNI Objective:

1. Secure Onogrono Island and capture the Morgenrotor facilities or keep them from ZAFT's hands.

2. Neutralize Orb as a potential enemy.

Senario One

Orb accepts Alliance's "offer" and joins. Objective one and two completed.

Senario Two

Orb refuses, Alliance invades, Orb fails to defend and destroy facilites. Objective one and two completed.

Senario Three

Orb refuses and fails to defend facilites, destroys facilites to keep them from Alliance hands. Objective one and two completed.

Risk, minor to moderate losses. We can all agree that Orb isn't holding off a full scale Alliance invasion, otherwise why are they scared of the Alliance and agree to side with them? They all know and even said, they won't be able to beat back the Alliance. Hell you even said yourself Orb proably has a small military, any losses by the Alliance would be a drop in the bucket for them.

Gain, Orb's research data, or deny ZAFT a potent ally.

That's all I have left to say, an other posts on this topic and I'll just be repeating myself. If you want to continue this debate then just re-read my previous posts, because I'll just be saying the same thing anyway.

[azrael]

Phoenix, in addition to that concept, the issue is also a matter of economics.  Superior manufacturing and maintanence capability might in turn mean significantly more expensive and hence not easily mass produced.  The problem is you have no idea the expense involved in producing a Murasame vs a Windam. 

...  But if a Windam costs half as much to maintain and to service, then Orb's manufacturing ability is suddenly awfully pathetic.  At best, you can say you don't know that Orb has superior manufacturing and you don't know the industrial capabilties of EA/PLANT.  But you can't jump to the conclusion Orb has superior tech based on the fact they've mass produced Murasame....

For those of us who have been here long enough, we have done this debate of transforming vs. single-state mechs and we have thought it out long and hard and transforming mechs are more expensive than single-state mechs. Common sense tells us that. A transforming mech is more complex. The more complex, the more expensive it gets. Yet ORB goes ahead builds it. That means that ORB found it to be economically feasible.

ORB doesn't need a multi-role mech. EA needed lots of mechs. They can't keep buliding individual role mechs so they build a multi-role mech and add mission variable armaments. Cheap, easy to build, easy to maintain. ORB, on the other hand, is small, needs full functionality over multi-role so they don't need a single mech they can customize the hell out of. ORB, overall, isn't a warring nation. They never wanted to be. For ORB's size, their manufacturing abilities are perfect. ORB never had the need to produce cheap toys like the Daggers. Quality, not quantity. You are basing your conclusion on the fact that ORB is like EA. They are not. They never were. But for ORB's size, they have shown to be quite impressive in manufacturing and using lots of new technology. That's the key. The Murasame is only 1/one/uno/ichi example. The Murasame works for ORB because that is what they need. They don't need to produce them like the EA produces Daggers/Windams. If they did, we would be calling them EA. There are more examples but we listed most of them. We can continue this all you want but if we have to repeat ourselves and explain in detail since you can't connect the dots, then this becomes pointless.

You can go ahead and continue this, but frankly I'm tired of conversation.

I wanna see more Luna pics.

[wolfx]

You can go ahead and continue this, but frankly I'm tired of conversation.

I wanna see more Luna pics.

Amen!

[Anubis]

Got a cagalli. That's it for the naughty pics for now. When H-gundam opens up again at the beginning of the month I'll pillage though there.

[Anubis]

Here's another Lacus one too.

[Druna Skass]

OK enough of the teenage girls already. Who's got some of Capt. Ramius?

[wolfx]

As noted by the Proffesor chick in Astray Red Frame OVA....gravity makes your boobs sag. So....i guess perky big boobies are a norm for coordinators and all space faring women.

[Keith]

As noted by the Proffesor chick in Astray Red Frame OVA....gravity makes your boobs sag. So....i guess perky big boobies are a norm for coordinators and all space faring women. 

I can't wait for the future, and breasts free of the restraints of gravity!

Edited March 30, 2005 by Keith

[wolfx]

A tribute to the Gouf.

[zeo-mare]

great shots of the gouf, i also love that Capt. Ramius above.

chris

[zeo-mare]

looks like the Cosmic Region series is now out they are showing up on ebay, looks nice, i am not a big fan of the box design however.

[GRAND CANNON]

Bless you, Anubis!!

Bless you!!!

Nice Ramius, too!

Yeah, I guess there is something about the CR box. What with it's missing an illustration at the bottom and the color is just too..........SEEDy.

[zeo-mare]

it also seems like it comes with nothing. i am so used to the GFF being loaded with weapons and configurable stuff.

[Hikuro]

I thought the gouf did an amazing job in the battlefield. Heine took out alot of enemy units on his own and proved to be an ace. But when Kira "cut in", I think Heine lost his cool just a bit to much and got himself killed for doing that...he was an interesting character to me, shame he was wasted like that.

And if ANYONE thought he'll make an appearance then I gotta hear this lol poor bastard got sliced from his upper chest!

[Black Valkyrie]

looks like the Cosmic Region series is now out they are showing up on ebay, looks nice, i am not a big fan of the box design however.

Yup too colorful, almost girly stuff

[Black Valkyrie]

A tribute to the Gouf.

hmm... what`s next Shin sword fighting Gil same as Amuro and Char !

[Anubis]

The new Gouf was indeed awesome. If Kira didn't stick his nose in and let the Gouf fight Gaia, Heine could probably have kicked Stellar's ass. I live how he just whipped her the first two times. Down doggie. I still don't get why Kira got in there, he should have just focused on disabling the Orb mpbile suits. We just covered a lot of that debate though. I'm still not happy with Kira though. He deserves to be slapped by Athrun this time.

Anyway, I hope we see more Goufs soon. These need to be mass produced quick. These can replace the Dinns easily with a new high performance model.

I love how they mirrored the Ramba Ral scene too, that was a good tribute.

I never thought I would like an orange mobile suit this much, but they did it. In a dark scheme they would look awesome. I hope they go with the Gouf flight type scheme from 8th MS Team.

As for the cosmic region, I guess the concilation is that the Impulse itself is sculpted much better than the MSiA with more detail. The box sucks, but the figure looks good. The two fix figures I have haven't changed from the mode I set them in, nor are they likely going to change. All those parts get to sit in a parts bag. The Impulse still looks pretty good. I hope they release a Sword Impulse soon. That's still the only Impulse I want.

Any pics from anyone yet? Is Graham buying one?

Edited March 30, 2005 by Anubis

[Anubis]

A tribute to the Gouf. 

hmm... what`s next Shin sword fighting Gil same as Amuro and Char !

Maybe Rey sword fighting Neo.

[kalvasflam]

OK enough of the teenage girls already. Who's got some of Capt. Ramius?

Oooh, very nice, it's obvious she isn't a natural... ha ha.

[Bariaburu Faita]

looks like the Cosmic Region series is now out they are showing up on ebay, looks nice, i am not a big fan of the box design however.

Sorry to say this, but this is crap. Or to be more specific there is a good chance of you getting a crappy one.

QC and paint job seems to be very random on the ones I have seen so far.

I have seen a bunch with parts that are sticking out at odd angles, messy paint and various other cosmetic defects.

Does not meet the standards set by the regular Fix Figuration line. The base sculpt looks good. Maybe future production runs will be better.

[GRAND CANNON]

Sounds like the F91/F90 problem......

Pray the Xi/Penelope doesn't take this route.

[Graham]

Any pics from anyone yet? Is Graham buying one?

Nah, saw the Cosmic Region Force Impulse in the shops yesterday and I'm gonna pass on it. Sculpt is quite good, but as Howard said the paint job is a bit iffy on many of them.

Anyway, I consider the MMM GQ toy the ultimate version of the Impulse, so I'm gonna stick with that.

Besides I've spent far too much on models and DVDs this month already.

Oh, the HCM Pro Force Impulse & Gunner Zaku Warrior are also out and look very nice. As I have no money and no free shelf space I'm gonna pass.

Graham

[Anubis]

OK, so I guess it's either MM GQ or HCM Pro for my Impulse.

[wolfx]

Upclose photos of cosmic region impulse. Looks ok here.

[Graham]

Look at the white part of the right shoulder & the thruster on the center groin, pretty sloppy.

Graham