Keith Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Just about every AU series has had some type of "Newtype" status. G had the Hyper Mode, Wing had the Zero System, I don't want to talk about X as I hate what they did, and Turn A...well if Turn A had anything, it was very vague.
ogami Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Just about every AU series has had some type of "Newtype" status. G had the Hyper Mode, Wing had the Zero System, I don't want to talk about X as I hate what they did, and Turn A...well if Turn A had anything, it was very vague. G... you reminded me of Master Asia is the strongest New Type in the Gundam world.
phuqueue Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Shin is a Coordinator. My guess is that he's probably first generation, because first generation in general is better than second, which is better than third. There's no difference in 'quality' between generations of Coordinator. You might be thinking of how they mentioned that with each passing generation of Coordinator the birth rate was declining. Actually, there is a difference in quality. Granted, a Coordinator is still a Coordinator regardless of generation. But a first generation Coordinator is "better" than a second generation. I don't remember if this was covered in the show or in some supplementary source, but it was mentioned at some point. If you think about it, it does make sense. A second generation Coordinator, if you ignore the fact that his parents were first generation Coordinators, is essentially just a Natural with really good genes. He's birthed the same way, with no genetic engineering involved. And they explained in the show exactly why a Coordinator, even a first generation who is still birthed naturally, can't ever be perfect. A pretty rudimentary analogy would be to run something through Babelfish. Whatever you've originally written represents the best possible form of that (a super Coordinator like Kira). Run it through Babelfish once and it won't come out exactly as you hoped but it won't be awful (well, okay, it will be, but let's pretend it's not for the sake of the example). There's your first gen Coordinator, who was created perfectly but then, as explained in the show, suffered from the imperfect conditions created by a natural birth. Then you run it through again and what you get comes out even more messed up because you're taking something that wasn't perfect to begin with and passing it back through the filter again. Here's your second gen, even further from the original. Like I said, it's a crappy analogy, but I think it makes the point well enough. A Coordinator is still "better" than a Natural, but the relative quality of the Coordinator in question does, in fact, depend on what generation he was. The imperfect conditions of a natural womb can undo some of the genetic enhancements that were made, and interbreeding between two Coordinators isn't necessarily guaranteed to produce another perfect specimen. Just about every AU series has had some type of "Newtype" status. G had the Hyper Mode, Wing had the Zero System, I don't want to talk about X as I hate what they did, and Turn A...well if Turn A had anything, it was very vague. Turn A had some Newtypish elements, but they were a little subtle. Gym Ghingnham controlled the Turn X, which was essentially a giant assembly of funnels, and it was mentioned that the cockpit contained a psycommu system. Then there's Merrybell Gadget, who had her remote controlled mobile suits and heard bell sounds (like Victory Gundam's Fara Griffon, an Enhanced Human). I've heard speculation before that the moon may still have facilities to produce Enhanced Humans and that Gym and Merrybell may both have undergone the procedure, but obviously the show never offered anything concrete about it.
Anubis Posted October 19, 2004 Author Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) The official timeline did say this: C.E. 40 ~ The first generation of Coordinators, born in secrecy, reach maturity and begin to excel in every scientific, artistic, and athletic field. The differences between Coordinators and Naturals thus become very clear, and critical voices emerge. C.E. 41 Marriages among first-generation Coordinators produce a purebred second generation, who soon prove to have inherited their parents' abilities. No mention of losing any characteristics or dilution. I'd be interested to see something concrete that says second gens are not as good as the first gens. The babblefish example doesn't apply to kids. If a coordinator and a natural have a child, then the child might not have all the characteristics of a coorinator, as they are a half breed. Depends on which genes are dominant and which are recessive. A pairing of two coordinators would result in another full coordinator. Example: All 4 Zaft Gundam pilots were second gens, and lost nothing for being second gen. There is no mention anywhere about them being less. The only problem plant was having was the birth rate was low. For whatever reason, there weren't as many kids being born as predicted. Difficulty conceiving being a side effect possibly, or just the birth rate happened to be low up there, who knows. Also, I highly recommend anyone who hasnt' read the official timeline yet to do so as it answers a number of background questions. Stuff like a mention that there was another usage of a cyclops system previously. You also see more of how the EA likes to handle things. You see all the build up to how the war started. Good read. Nice glossary too. Finally a good description of the cyclops Cyclops System A weapon of mass destruction developed by the Earth Alliance forces. The Cyclops System consists of a huge array of dish-shaped microwave emitters, whose radiation destroys all living things within the system's effective radius. The ubiquitous N-Jammer, which blocks the transmission of radio waves, also restricts microwaves to a distance of a few kilometers. The microwaves are thus confined within a relatively small area, dramatically increasing the intensity of the radiation. Once activated, the Cyclops System rapidly heats the water that makes up about 60% of the human body, as well as the propellant and ammunition supplies of mobile suits. Ultimately the intense radiation heat will destroy even buildings and the array itself.On June 2, C.E. 70, the Alliance used a Cyclops System installed beneath their supply base in the moon's Endymion Crater to destroy the base, taking with it both ZAFT and Alliance forces. Edited October 19, 2004 by Anubis
Hikuro Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 Wait wait, they had two cyclops systems? One in Alaska and the other on the Moon?
Anubis Posted October 19, 2004 Author Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) Wait wait, they had two cyclops systems? One in Alaska and the other on the Moon? This is why Mwu was like "Oh crap!" when he saw it was under the Alaska base. It had been used before. It wasn't something they mentioned in the show. Edited October 19, 2004 by Anubis
Hikuro Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 that was probably the most graphic piece of the whole series watching everyone emplode into bacon bit particles...all it meant was even further escalation of the war and pissing off the Coordinators even more....sigh....angst.... mmmmmmmmmmmmmm Bacon Bit Fllay......to bad that didn't happen!
Anubis Posted October 19, 2004 Author Posted October 19, 2004 I want to know the description for the Panama weapon. Some type of N-Jammer canceller w/EMP? The Ginns would have had to have been very well shielded for that. Anyone see anything on what exactly that was? The timeline/glossary gets updated as the dvd's come out so not to give any spoilers. At least they explained the Genesis in the show.
Druna Skass Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 I wonder if it's possible to create a Cyclopes Cannon. Find a way to keep it from blowing itself up and use Neutron Jammers to focues the microwaves even more into a beam.
phuqueue Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 The official timeline did say this: C.E. 40 ~ The first generation of Coordinators, born in secrecy, reach maturity and begin to excel in every scientific, artistic, and athletic field. The differences between Coordinators and Naturals thus become very clear, and critical voices emerge. C.E. 41 Marriages among first-generation Coordinators produce a purebred second generation, who soon prove to have inherited their parents' abilities. No mention of losing any characteristics or dilution. I'd be interested to see something concrete that says second gens are not as good as the first gens. The babblefish example doesn't apply to kids. If a coordinator and a natural have a child, then the child might not have all the characteristics of a coorinator, as they are a half breed. Depends on which genes are dominant and which are recessive. A pairing of two coordinators would result in another full coordinator. Example: All 4 Zaft Gundam pilots were second gens, and lost nothing for being second gen. There is no mention anywhere about them being less. The only problem plant was having was the birth rate was low. For whatever reason, there weren't as many kids being born as predicted. Difficulty conceiving being a side effect possibly, or just the birth rate happened to be low up there, who knows. I'm absolutely certain that I remember someone saying somewhere that first gens are better than second gens and so on, and since the logic backs it up, I don't know why you're arguing. Gundam Official, while a good source of information, doesn't say *everything*. The show explained how a natural birth occurs in an imperfect environment that necessarily diminishes the effects of the genetic engineering. As more Coordinators are born this way, their improved abilities will erode. This is why the Babelfish example applies well enough, because the problem affects *every* Coordinator except for Kira. How can you be certain that the four ZAFT pilots wouldn't have been better if they were first gen? I'm not saying there's an _enormous_ gulf separating first and second gen. But there is a difference. You're basically just asserting that because they were already pretty good, they wouldn't have been better if they were first generation. I have a question. If each generation is just as perfect as the generation before it, then why does the third generation have so much trouble conceiving? Shouldn't they be just as fertile as the second and first generations?
Druna Skass Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 What would you call a person who has a Coodinator and a Natural as parents?
Dat Pinche Haro! Posted October 19, 2004 Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) nevermind...read the question wrong... Edited October 20, 2004 by Dat Pinche Haro!
Anubis Posted October 19, 2004 Author Posted October 19, 2004 (edited) What would you call a person who has a Coodinator and a Natural as parents? halfling? Seriously though: Gene hands downs are determined by the mingling of the dominant and recessive genes of the parents. It's almost a random mixture like salt mixing with pepper. The genes don't dilute in the process. 1st gen Coordinators had their genes permanently altered. These same genes are the ones that will be passed to their children, and then their children, and so on, so of course they share their parent's qualities. Some from the father, some form the mother. It doesn't work as described by the babblefish method. The only time there is a diminishment is when you inbreed. After a few generations of inbreeding, the recessive genes will come out on top and generate problems. This one agrees with the babblefish method. Biology 101 refutes the coordinator children "not being as good" theory. Now a natural having children with a coordinator will see not all the traits of a coordinator, as it is their genes that will mix. If half-coordinators, and naturals mingle in the coordinator's gene pool, then yes, over time the coordinator aspects will diminish slowly. This is unavoidable, so yes, this is where over a long long time future generations of coordinators won't be as enhanced as the first ones. Pure-bred (as in 2 coordinator parents) coordinator children will have no degradation in that respect. As for the low birth rate, there are many reasons for a low birth percentage. Maybe coordinators don't shag as much? War, population stress, food shortages, many things affect the birth rate of an area. Plant is still relatively new, lots of the second gens are now adults, or coming of age, so now is when the population will start to increase. Previously it was the 1st gens that started it all. C.E. 44 The first ten space colonies (later known as Aprilius City) of the new L5 cluster are completed. These colonies, dubbed PLANTs, are intended to serve as large-scale production sites. The one thing they don't make is food, which the PLANTs are strictly prohibited from producing and which must be imported entirely from Earth.C.E. 45 The estimated Coordinator population now exceeds ten million. Plant is no more than 30 years old. Also, compare the total number of coordinators in CE 45 to today's New York City polulation (over 8 million today as of the 2000 census). It takes time to build a poluation base, and there are factors toward a low population growth period. That's a whole other scientific field. This makes me want to watch Gattaca again. Edited October 19, 2004 by Anubis
Druna Skass Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Well then why is it that a 3rd Gen can't reproduce with another 3rd Gen?
wolfx Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Man....i've never seen a discussion this heated since Evangelion discussions. Excluding macross on this boards of course.
Anubis Posted October 20, 2004 Author Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Well then why is it that a 3rd Gen can't reproduce with another 3rd Gen? Who said they can't? BTW: Akingdom/Aone's Seed Destiny Episode 2 is up for bittorrent. Man....i've never seen a discussion this heated since Evangelion discussions. laugh.gifExcluding macross on this boards of course. I'm not trying to sound heated. Sorry if it sounds that way. Kind of ironic, outside of Seed I only get this in depth very easily is with an Eva discussion. I love those. I haven't gotten in many hardcore macross discussions lately really. I will go out on a limb and say that, related to what I put a little earlier, it's possible that plant's gene pool might already have enough natural blood in it to affect a potentially large number of them. Who knows how many coordinators up there have a natural spouse? Since their kids aren't "pure" coordinators to begin with, then I can see how that would affect things pretty soon as well with subsequent generations. The "taint" is already there, it's just a matter of how soon it spreads. If coordinators only bred with other coordinators, then the gene pool would stay consistent, but that's an impossibility. If there's something that actually says that the 3rd gen coordinators had trouble conceiving, I seriously want to read that whole article/interview. Edited October 20, 2004 by Anubis
Druna Skass Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Well then why is it that a 3rd Gen can't reproduce with another 3rd Gen? Who said they can't? I think it was one of the things Patrick and Siegel were arguing about. I'm pretty sure Patrick gave some propagand speech saying they would over come that problem. I know it's mentioned somewhere. From the MAHQ summary of episode 20 Patrick thinks they've evolved into a new species and don't need to exist alongside Naturals. Siegel disagrees and points to the decreasing birth rates in the third generation of Coordinators. Patrick believes those problems will be solved, and he says he doesn't want to de-evolve to the level of the Naturals. He leaves, and Siegel says that they can't de-evolve if they never really evolved to begin with. Maybe they can but it looks like they're having some big problems over it. Edited October 20, 2004 by Druna Skass
Anubis Posted October 20, 2004 Author Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Well then why is it that a 3rd Gen can't reproduce with another 3rd Gen? Who said they can't? I think it was one of the things Patrick and Siegel were arguing about. I'm pretty sure Patrick gave some propagand speech saying they would over come that problem. I know it's mentioned somewhere. From the MAHQ summary of episode 20 Patrick thinks they've evolved into a new species and don't need to exist alongside Naturals. Siegel disagrees and points to the decreasing birth rates in the third generation of Coordinators. Patrick believes those problems will be solved, and he says he doesn't want to de-evolve to the level of the Naturals. He leaves, and Siegel says that they can't de-evolve if they never really evolved to begin with. Maybe they can but it looks like they're having some big problems over it. I remember that discussion, but based on that discussion there was not enough info to ascertain wether they meant there was a physical problem, or just that the 3rd gens weren't having as many kids yet. That main thing to take from that conversation was the difference of opinion: moderate vs radical coordinator in a way. Zala saw coordinators as humanity's next evolutionary step, and were totally superior to naturals. Clyne reminded him that they were initially engineered, not evolved. I took it as the latter possibility, that the 3rd gens were having disappointing numbers of kids. Due to plant's size it's a very big problem if there aren't enough kids to fill the shoes of the curent batch of adults when they get old. With all that threat of war in years prior and then the actual war maybe a lot of 3rd gens were putting off families for the moment, not to mention the number of soldiers on the front. There were 10 million+ coordinators 30 years prior, I wonder what number plant was at by CE 71. It could be something physically wrong with them, but so far there isn't anything to support that fully. Edited October 20, 2004 by Anubis
phuqueue Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Seriously though: Gene hands downs are determined by the mingling of the dominant and recessive genes of the parents. It's almost a random mixture like salt mixing with pepper. The genes don't dilute in the process. 1st gen Coordinators had their genes permanently altered. These same genes are the ones that will be passed to their children, and then their children, and so on, so of course they share their parent's qualities. Some from the father, some form the mother. It doesn't work as described by the babblefish method.The only time there is a diminishment is when you inbreed. After a few generations of inbreeding, the recessive genes will come out on top and generate problems. This one agrees with the babblefish method. Biology 101 refutes the coordinator children "not being as good" theory. Now a natural having children with a coordinator will see not all the traits of a coordinator, as it is their genes that will mix. If half-coordinators, and naturals mingle in the coordinator's gene pool, then yes, over time the coordinator aspects will diminish slowly. This is unavoidable, so yes, this is where over a long long time future generations of coordinators won't be as enhanced as the first ones. Pure-bred (as in 2 coordinator parents) coordinator children will have no degradation in that respect. Yes, we've all taken basic high school biology and understand the fundamentals of genetics (not that it matters, because this isn't a "theory," it's a fact stated either in the show or in some supplemental source). What is said in the show takes precedence over reality, though. *In the show* it is said that even a Coordinator can't be made perfectly because the natural womb is an imperfect environment that affects the altered genes. Is that realistic? Probably not (but then, it's not really my area of expertise, so I don't know). But is that the situation in the show? Absolutely. Why do you think they created Kira in an artificial womb? And why do you think this makes him better than other Coordinators? It's because they managed to grow him in an ideal environment that is denied to each and every other Coordinator. You're assuming that every Coordinator has two dominant genes for every single trait. You're also assuming that these genes NEVER mutate. It's possible that when creating a Coordinator, they simply give him a single dominant gene for whichever trait they want, knowing that the other gene is irrelevant (for the time being, that is) anyway. It's possible that, for some reason or another, the genes are mutating at a noticeably higher level than in Naturals. And if none of this is happening, there's still *something* going on in the womb that's making these Coordinators less than perfect. This simple fact, regardless of anything else, is exactly why the Babelfish example *does* hold. By the way, inbreeding is actually the best opportunity to *avoid* diminishment, provided both people aren't carrying recessive genes for harmful traits. Interbreeding within a huge population is merely the next best thing. As for the low birth rate, there are many reasons for a low birth percentage. Maybe coordinators don't shag as much? War, population stress, food shortages, many things affect the birth rate of an area. Plant is still relatively new, lots of the second gens are now adults, or coming of age, so now is when the population will start to increase. Previously it was the 1st gens that started it all.C.E. 44 The first ten space colonies (later known as Aprilius City) of the new L5 cluster are completed. These colonies, dubbed PLANTs, are intended to serve as large-scale production sites. The one thing they don't make is food, which the PLANTs are strictly prohibited from producing and which must be imported entirely from Earth.C.E. 45 The estimated Coordinator population now exceeds ten million. Plant is no more than 30 years old. Also, compare the total number of coordinators in CE 45 to today's New York City polulation (over 8 million today as of the 2000 census). It takes time to build a poluation base, and there are factors toward a low population growth period. That's a whole other scientific field. This makes me want to watch Gattaca again. First of all, birthrate isn't measured against the total size of the population, so that's irrelevant. If there's a problem with the birthrate, it's not because they just don't have that many people yet. The show makes a point that there is something specifically wrong with the third generation Coordinators. It doesn't say what it is, but there's a problem. In addition to what Druna Skass quoted from MAHQ, Sigel also mentions that they've enforced "marriage control," but the birthrate is still dropping. That would seem to imply that they're actively working to make sure Coordinator couples do procreate, but it just isn't working out (in other words, food shortages, population stress, etc. don't seem to be factors).
Druna Skass Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Well I went and watched that scene again and several things that Siegel said seemed to me that he was talking about some biological problems not just people not being horney enough. "We've already reached our limits" "Life is something that occurs naturaly, it's not something you make" But hey that's just my interpretation. And no matter how hard I try I just can't remember what episode had that speech Partick gave where he said they would solve the birthrate problem and he was showing an operating room in the background.
Keith Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Ok, I just watched through the last two episodes of Seed again, and I think I get it now... During that whole exchange with Flay, Kira never spoke to her or acknowledged anything she said, he just grieved. Since Flay was part of Flaga's bloodline too, and since that event did occur, the only logical answer is that "she" was a Newtype too, not Kira. Though she did say she was going to protect him as she dissapeered, so Kira may pop up with Newtype powers yet.... Kira wasn't able to take out any of the funnels, which also does support that he's not a Newtype, too bad.
Druna Skass Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Since Flay was part of Flaga's bloodline too, WHAT?! Where does it say that?
Keith Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Since Flay was part of Flaga's bloodline too, WHAT?! Where does it say that? When Cruset takes her in, she comments something to the effect that he sounds like her father, and he realizes there's a relation.
Anubis Posted October 20, 2004 Author Posted October 20, 2004 Ok, I just watched through the last two episodes of Seed again, and I think I get it now...During that whole exchange with Flay, Kira never spoke to her or acknowledged anything she said, he just grieved. Since Flay was part of Flaga's bloodline too, and since that event did occur, the only logical answer is that "she" was a Newtype too, not Kira. Though she did say she was going to protect him as she dissapeered, so Kira may pop up with Newtype powers yet.... Kira wasn't able to take out any of the funnels, which also does support that he's not a Newtype, too bad. Fllay was part of Mwu's bloodline? Where/when/huh/joking? She was distracted that Crueset sounded like her father, (same va for that purpose) but she wasn't related to Mwu at all. Interesting idea about her being a newtype. Since she never hopped in a MS or anything there was no opportunity for anyone to notice. Especially since she was the one who did all the talking. Too bad she's dead and we can't see anything more. Unless she's still haunting Kira's dreams and/or pulls an Obi-wan and talks to him occasionally.
Druna Skass Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 When Cruset takes her in, she comments something to the effect that he sounds like her father, and he realizes there's a relation. I don't seem to recall Klueze saying anything about any sort of link. MAHQ doesn't mention anything about Klueze realizing a link with her when he captures her at Alaska, though I'll watch that part again tommorow...
Anubis Posted October 20, 2004 Author Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) When Cruset takes her in, she comments something to the effect that he sounds like her father, and he realizes there's a relation. I don't seem to recall Klueze saying anything about any sort of link. MAHQ doesn't mention anything about Klueze realizing a link with her when he captures her at Alaska, though I'll watch that part again tommorow... When he catches Fllay at Alaska, he's just thinking "Hey look what I found to take home." He knew he could use her as a pawn at some point, which he later did giving her back to the Dominion with the N-Jammer Canceller Plans. She was just shocked that he sounded like her father, at which point he knocked her out. Skimmed Destiny Ep. 2. Good episode. Shin did ok considering it was pretty much a 3 on one, and he was stuck with Melee equipment (though he did have a beam rifle). Athrun was limited in what he could do since all he had awas a beam axe, and also had Cagalli bouncing in the cockpit. Shin got knocked down at one point, so Athrun rammed the Abyss, but when he did that Cagalli hit her head and was knocked out. Abyss then took his right arm off. He did ok too, and without her in there he might have been able to cut loose a little more and maybe done some damage at least since phase shift won't stop a beam weapon. As it was he couldn't do much. Shin did all right being ganged up on, and the thief trio were also pretty good. They do seem to work together way better than the last crazy trio. Stellar has some issues though. She kinda freaked out after a while. Nice ep. Neo sound sooo much like Mwu. I liked the Minerva's launch. Kinda like Aliens with the dropship. They lowered it, and dropped it with the wings faning out. I like the design on this ship. Edited October 20, 2004 by Anubis
Shade Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Kira wasn't able to take out any of the funnels, which also does support that he's not a Newtype, too bad. Uh, Kira does take out some of the funnels. When he charges Cruset after Flay's death, he shoots down two of them in short order, and from there, he shoots another one down every so often.
Anubis Posted October 20, 2004 Author Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) I am going to add for Destiny ep 2 that Neo does hop in his mobile armor, which has wireless gunbarrels. Rey also has a newtype reaction when Neo was close by. He and Luminaria were able to get in their Zaku's eventually and join the fight. Great action. Neo is very similar to Mwu. Mahq mentioned in their summary that Rey looks kind of like a teenage Rau Le Creuset. I can see the resemblance there (son or another clone perhaps?). There should be quite an intersting plot in this series. It was kind of funny Athrun tried to use an alias when asked who he was, and then Cagalli blew it for him. Also, the earth trio knew nothing about there being a 4th gundam, hence their surprize when impulse showed up. They only knew about the 3 they stole. Edited October 20, 2004 by Anubis
Panon Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 Since Flay was part of Flaga's bloodline too, WHAT?! Where does it say that? It doesn't.
Keith Posted October 20, 2004 Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Kira wasn't able to handle the funnels in any way close to a Newtype (and I don't recall seeing him taking out any flying ones, though he did take out a mounted one). As opposed to say Amuro & or Kamille, who could anticipate & strike at a funnel before it had a chance to shoot. Why was I thinking Flay was related...perhaps I was tired when I watched that episode. Edited October 20, 2004 by Keith
Dendrobius Posted October 21, 2004 Posted October 21, 2004 Keith, rewatch the final episode. Kira DOES shoot down quite a few of the funnels in the air, after the "meeting" with Fllay. Not a Newtype reaction as such though, I must say. Kira is no Newtype, and probably never will be (hopefully). He's just got either insanely fast reflexes, or that Ultimate Coordinator thing going for him.
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