Official Gundam Seed Destiny Thread

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Actually, I felt exactly the opposite about Char. By CCA, it looked more to me like he wanted Amuro to kill him. And while Char never gave a care for Newtypes or Zeon, he did care for, and continued to right up to the end, humanity. He wasn't trying to drop Axis on Earth for revenge or for fun, he was just trying to stop humanity from overruning themselves & the planet.

But his method was against the 'will of the people'. (including pilots who were themselves zeon soldiers and tried to help Amuro in the end) So I would still categorise it as evil due to the death it would bring.

That's the difference I saw. In a way it was like euthanisia. Should we kill someone suffering a painful disease, or just let them live with the hope they will get better from sickness/change unhealthy attitude? Do you HOPE for the best and patiently wait, (amuro) or do you ASSUME the worst of people? (Char) Char tried to accelerate death, wanting the patient to die because they feel uncomfortable at the sight of suffering, which is selfish and controlling. If someone is suffering, let them be the one to choose. Don't force them to die by forcing your ideal to make them change to be more like you.

Char wanted to take power into his own hands and use force, raping people of thier free will. That's the main difference. So the power is what makes them dangerous. The oldtypes at least have reason to be paranoid and scared of newtypes in light of this. If power is misused for destructive purpose to force people to accept something they don't want to or aren't ready to accept, then it is natural to build up enough strength to prevent the other side from having its way. If you had a family living on earth, and some guy wanted to kill you and your children living on earth for his ideal, you would join the feddies. Not because you hate newtypes, but to survive, to live - you have your own dreams and don't want some other guy to take them away from you.

In Gundam Seed, when the Earth alliance was powerless, that is when the villain shows his true colors (world dictatorship with the leader as God) and the "true" good guys are able to jump in with a purpose. Thier destiny (although not clear from the start) was really to stop Dullindal.

It goes beyond fighting for 'your side' or 'my side'. It's fighting to be free - even if you are wrong you may want to personally experience the wrong path to grow from that mistake, knowing at all times it was you that had the power to make the choice and make the mistake for yourself, rather than be told it was wrong "because it just is".

So it's not about right or wrong, but the freedom to choose. Dullindal, like Char couldn't give a poo what you want, and would kill you if he could just prove how right he is to make a point. "change and be like me and observe how much better society will become." Char wasn't a villain for being wrong, he may be right and humans will finally find thier Zion/Promised land/Heaven in space if people just followed. Nope, he was a villain for how he misused the power which should be distrubuted evenly amoungst everyone so they can all have a say in thier fate. Similar thing in Gundam Wing movie when Marimeia army tried to control everything believing all power under her would finally end ALL war at the expense of individual freedom and choice by the people.

Constrast this to Amuro/Kira who are trying to prevent that kind of crap from happening; like police trying to protect those innocent people from harm who might accidently get caught between the two neighbors' violent fighting. Innocent kids that actually want nothing to do with the fight and wish to stay out but can't. And thanks to the war, and the continued fighting between both sides who believe they are doing good by killing, this ensures the innocent who want to get out, WILL get harmed because now they are trapped into fighting.

If the three ships alliance accidently harm soldiers (including ones on thier own nation's side or ones on side of thier friends' nation) then it can't be helped, since soldiers already made a choice to fight.

The true fight is to fight to live. Like the example of euthanising the patient I gave above, people still want the choice to be able to fight to keep on living even if the odds are against them and they are certain to die. If you were that sick patient (overpopulated, polluted, war-devasted, scorched Earth) would you have an attitude of hope, or would you just die telling others that "life wasn't worth living anymore"? That is the main difference between the villain and the hero, Char looks down on others (possibly disgusted by them seeing people as a lost cause) similar to the way Mu La Flaga's dad probably did. While the hero doesn't care if the people are full of faults and just wants to protect people from harm.

In the end Char came off as a psycho for trying to justify killing masses of people. (no matter the reason, you can call it "care for humanity", but to me it is a wierd way of expressing it) I think that his aim was to set the conditions up for making amuro fight him just so he could have his duel against him to prove that he is superior. It was a case of "now what might get amuro really ticked off enough to get him angry to fight? Ah how about dropping a huge rock on earth.." Almost playing with him. Since amuro went through his period of not liking fighting because it ends in misery. (ie lalah sune trying to break it up between the two and dying when they wouldn't stop the fight)

While Char treats the fighting and killing like a game or 'fun' challenge, setting the conditions up for an 'even' match, Amuro grieves and is unwilling to fight. Newtypes are supposed to be sensitive to other's suffering and pain because they can feel it when someone dies. Not just as supersoldiers. This is why they can take the moral high ground, but when used as killing machines that look down on those inferiour to them, that is when you get these charismatic uber villiains that run loose and are able to kill masses of people with no remorse for the suffering they cause by the people that put them into power in the first place. People that think they are more right than others deem themselves superior and more important, and "those who disagree deserve to die" is the attitude. (they put themselves as judges of humanity when they shouldn't, that's god's role.)

Edited December 4, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Keith]

I agree that Char was selfish, but not to the extend of considering peoples lives to be playthings. While his methods were at times highly questionable, his intentions I don't feel were all that bad. He wasn't simply a power hungry lunatic, he was a powerful lunatic with a purpose.

I don't believe he thought he had a chance against Amuro at all, I think he fully intended to die, becoming a martyr, and doing what he believed would be saving the planet, and pushing humanity to stay in space & continue to evolve.

[kensei]

My guess is Shinn Asuka although not being a villain, is not meant to be someone we the audience is supposed to sympathise with because he is hell bent on revenge and holds a grudge. These kinds of characters always turn out to be the "madmen" and slightly psychotic and dangerous people that are more concerned with killing thier rival than protecting people. They just use the excuse of "needing to gain more power to be able to protect people" as a way to show off to thier rival that they can actually beat them. Their real reason for fighting has more to do with proving to themselves they are better than the other guy that keeps owning them. (a "warrior pride" thing) But others who are close to them don't really know this because they are too much in admiration and praise for them; their leader being a legendary war hero to them and all, so all they CAN do is sit around and suck up to them, thinking it is all about ideals and wanting the best for thier race.

Note in Char's Counterattack how Char doesn't really give a poo about newtypes or the Zeon ideals or any of that crap but just takes advantage of it just so he can duel Amuro hoping to beat him once and for all? (just wants revenge for Lalah Sune who is the only chic he loves even going to great lengths to let amuro have the same technology as him so it is a "fair" fight) I think that's why Shinn had to live so we can see him grow and evolve into the arch nemesis of CE the way Char was the arch nemesis in UC. I fully did not expect him to die in the show for this reason. Because I think he will be a main character through any future CE shows constantly envying Kira's skill and wanting the honor of knowing that he can beat him. The fighting has nothing to do with war and wanting peace, but an inner personal desire to prove who is the ace of aces. To these kinds of people fighting is like a sport and they got to prove how good they are - thier aim being to prove they really are superior.

I think that is why Kira is the good guy. He doesn't treat war like a game and doesn't wish to fight despite being more skilled and better than his rival. It is not so much that he is a pacifist or a pussy, (that is what those around will think) but that killing is just plain wrong. And this is the reason you will never see him die off like a cannon fodder because he is too important to the story. No matter how much you hate the actions of the character what matters is thier attitude towards fighting. They will fight to protect, but they won't kill unless absolute necessary, and even then when killing can't be avoided, they will not 'enjoy' ending another person's life. The 'bad' guys think ending anothers life feels good, never letting go and always wanting revenge. It's personal to them and they will never learn to let go. Whereas the good guys are more like cops, defenders of peace but never letting personal feeling control thier action for selfish reasons. (You can imagine each country and faction as two annoying neighbours in your local neighbourhood who won't stop fighting and getting along and the AEUG/three ship alliance/ORB who are local police sick of the noise called to settle the fight.)

Constrast this to Shinn who seeks death for all who get in his way as an answer to all the problems. Weak characters seek and desire power, wanting it because they have none, while the hero has it, but sits and decides how it should be used properly. The hero is always defending our right to defend the human race (not just one side or one country or one faction they belong to, but the whole human race's right to live) and still NOT have all the answers to the problems that cause war, from all those villains who think they DO have the answer and want to wrestle control from everyone else just so they can realise thier stupid utopian fantasy by enforcing thier beliefs using thier power. That's why dullindal is 'evil', it would have been different if he hadn't used his weapons to force everyone. Even if he is right and his dream would actually bring everlasting peace, people still have the right to choose for themselves even if they never do decide to follow the ideal.

348742[/snapback]

Shinn was never a guy who sought himself out to be the best of the best. The fight against Freedom only turned personal when he killed (indiectly or directly, whatever you wanted to call it) Stellar. Shinn was a more lost than most characters, he fought in the ZAFT army thinking that he is serving as a retainer to peace rather than seeking to be top dog. Before Freedom stuck it's nose in Shinn was well able to cooperate and stare in admiration at those more skilled than him (Yzak and Dearka and Athrun).

Although I do not believe that his anger and resentment is projected in an appropriate fashion. But he will forever be listed as one of the greatest Gundam pilots of all time due to the fact that he best Kira in Freedom with Impulse. You can object and complain all you want about him having spare parts and extra support and that Kira never went for a killing shot (which I disagree with cause be was aiming for the abdominal region before Impulse split in half), but the fact is that Impulse should never have been able to defeat Freedom in the first place. The fight was unfair to begin with. Bloody Freedom with it's nuclear powered engine and complement of weapons and intrinsic ability to fly far outclasses Impulse's Force and Blast variants. I believe that Blast impulse would have been a better match for the Freedom, but it was not space and it didn't have the ability to fly.

Either way, Shinn did admirably.

[doodler7]

i don't know about that mang ... i think Kira is the better pilot ... and yes the Freedom should have won against the Impulse. i think Kira would have easily killed Shinn with the Freedom ... it's with Kira's ultimate skill that was also his ultimate defeat. it's great that these great pilots (like Shinn) are able to take down enemies and kill them ... but you become a far more superior pilot if you can defeat an enemy and at the same time spare them their lives ... just a thought.

maybe the writers have something else in mind for the 3rd series ... maybe Shinn will get his chance soon enough ... not in a gundam, but all out fist fight with Kira ... hah hah.

as for me, Amaro Ray is still the greatest and best mobile suit pilot.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I agree that Char was selfish, but not to the extend of considering peoples lives to be playthings. While his methods were at times highly questionable, his intentions I don't feel were all that bad. He wasn't simply a power hungry lunatic, he was a powerful lunatic with a purpose.

I don't believe he thought he had a chance against Amuro at all, I think he fully intended to die, becoming a martyr, and doing what he believed would be saving the planet, and pushing humanity to stay in space & continue to evolve.

His intentions were good but the method was extreme. Which is why he is dangerous. People have to learn at thier own pace. Who's to say people won't eventually emigrate to space of thier own free will? Why should he be the one to tell everyone when it is time? You don't go killing people because they disagree with your uptopian ideal. If someone came up to you and forced thier religious belief onto you and went to an extreme to kill you if you don't listen or agree, you'd be pissed. Since he judges the human race and mentions that earth people must atone for thier sins, he is totally deluded into thinking he is god.

In a way he is like Mu La Flaga's dad. He thinks he is superior and looks down on others. As if people can't come up with thier own solutions and figure things out for themselves. The ending shows us that even zeon solidiers are sane enough to see the error of his ways and they try to help amuro. The people should have a say in earth's fate and the power should go to them, not some single psycho who has no remorse for people that are not on his own team. At least Amuro's "care" extends to everyone. This is why I can see the "newtypes are dangerous" paranoia thing amoungst the federation. If people like Char go about threatening to kill not just soldiers but innocents too, then it makes him no different from anyone else who is guilty of sinning. (ie killing people directly, or indirectly by accident or through neglect. eg polluting earth) This is why he is a hypocrite. There are good people and bad people on earth. The good don't deserve to be punished with the bad. If someone sympathetic to his ideals is down there converting people, he just undid any justification for them to want to listen to him.

Shinn was never a guy who sought himself out to be the best of the best. The fight against Freedom only turned personal when he killed (indiectly or directly, whatever you wanted to call it) Stellar. Shinn was a more lost than most characters, he fought in the ZAFT army thinking that he is serving as a retainer to peace rather than seeking to be top dog. Before Freedom stuck it's nose in Shinn was well able to cooperate and stare in admiration at those more skilled than him (Yzak and Dearka and Athrun).

Although I do not believe that his anger and resentment is projected in an appropriate fashion. But he will forever be listed as one of the greatest Gundam pilots of all time due to the fact that he best Kira in Freedom with Impulse. You can object and complain all you want about him having spare parts and extra support and that Kira never went for a killing shot (which I disagree with cause be was aiming for the abdominal region before Impulse split in half), but the fact is that Impulse should never have been able to defeat Freedom in the first place. The fight was unfair to begin with. Bloody Freedom with it's nuclear powered engine and complement of weapons and intrinsic ability to fly far outclasses Impulse's Force and Blast variants. I believe that Blast impulse would have been a better match for the Freedom, but it was not space and it didn't have the ability to fly.

Either way, Shinn did admirably.

Nah, if the guy doesn't use all the weapons and has no intention of fighting to thier full potential it doesn't count. It doesn't matter what machine they are in because I could be in a better machine and choose not to use its best weapons for whatever crazy reason I decided. (ie like it's too dangerous, or these people are good people who don't deserve death)

I will grant that he did great by studying the weaknesses of his fighting style (which was to avoid casualties) but I don't agree that would make him the best pilot of all gundam history. Are you ignoring that Shinn could have died if kira used the chest gun? I dunno man, you seem pretty biased to me.. You see what you want to see rather than looking at the whole picture.

A good example might be in street fighter where Ken is pissed off at not being able to fight Ryu (he is hard to find) because he is the only one who can offer a challenge that is hard enough to be worth bragging about. One of the reasons for Ryu holding back was Ryu had this fear that his power was giving into the demonic power inside him. He felt guilty after almost killing Sagat in street fighter 1 (he was the former champion of the world street fighting tournament) with his deady dragon punch which was the first sign the power growing inside him was getting more evil. (instead of merely defeating the opponent, the power was starting to actually kill people in violent ways.) Now when you analyse akuma, that is basically the path that Ryu could have taken if he wanted to: that of using the evil power to kill people. He didn't do this and decided to hold back his power for ethical reasons. If you pay attention to the change in attitude of the character you'll understand the reason why he holds back: he doesn't want to kill people even though he has the potential to do it.

Like in that example, (where a better skilled person chooses to not use thier killing move and has no care if they lose 'points' because they don't treat killing like a game) Shinn is good but I don't think he is better than kira (holding back from killing) just from that one defeat. If someone is not fighting to thier full potential the opponent should sense that. I think I fully understand why characters like Char went to such great lengths to give Amuro the same technology in CCA. Because he knew his victory would not be a 'decisive one' (see the movie again where he explains this) unless all the conditions were set up to make it so neither had an excuse to "hold back" out of guilt that thier opponent was handicapped in some way.

As I mention earlier, there are some people in this world who treat fighting like a sport to win points. The hero's attitude is that killing is wrong and does not even wish to be a soldier out there killing. Shinn being motivated to kill believes if "I had the power I can change the world with the power". Not as simple as that for those who pay attention to the first season.

The characters that are trying to prove something and get revenge or win a mere a title for glory are not thinking about the big picture. War and suffering won't end just because they have power to kill whoever they want. It only feeds the evil that causes an endless cycle that draws in those little kids who don't even wish to fight but will die anyway.(because if they refuse they will get bullied into the war) If the power was distributed evenly you wouldn't have psychos like Char and Shinn running loose blaming the world for thier pain and who can't leave the past behind because they only think of revenge.

That is why I liken the three ship alliance as being cops trying to stop the neighbors from fighting. Yeah they may accidently kill a few soldiers on thier own homeland and this causes confusing battles, but thier goal is to limit the casualties and protect those who don't wish to see war break out, which is much more important in the grand scheme, so they just disarm the neighbor's weapons in the interest of peace to break up the fighting. (which can't be 100% stopped since all parties are guilty of doing it.) The amount that die fighting against the three ships alliance (mainly soldiers who made a decision to be owned by thier government when they signed up with the military) is miniscule to how many will die from using weapons like Genesis. (innocents who want nothing to do with the war)

In the grand scheme of things there are really only two camps:

-those who believe having immense power will allow people to protect thier loved ones. (ie shinn) Unfortunately others see the power as a threat and envy the power, seeking it for themselves.

-those who believe the power corrupts and causes people to go to extremes to use it for dictatorial control purposes, leading to less safe and less happy world for all. (ie like genesis which in the wrong hands is not merely a deterrent but when used is a threat to all people, not just the soldiers fighting in the war.)

Edited December 5, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[kensei]

Nah, if the guy doesn't use all the weapons and has no intention of fighting to thier full potential it doesn't count. It doesn't matter what machine they are in because I could be in a better machine and choose not to use its best weapons for whatever crazy reason I decided. (ie like it's too dangerous, or these people are good people who don't deserve death)

I will grant that he did great by studying the weaknesses of his fighting style (which was to avoid casualties) but I don't agree that would make him the best pilot of all gundam history. Are you ignoring that Shinn could have died if kira used the chest gun? I dunno man, you seem pretty biased to me.. You see what you want to see rather than looking at the whole picture.

A good example might be in street fighter where Ken is pissed off at not being able to fight Ryu (he is hard to find) because he is the only one who can offer a challenge that is hard enough to be worth bragging about. One of the reasons for Ryu holding back was Ryu had this fear that his power was giving into the demonic power inside him. He felt guilty after almost killing Sagat in street fighter 1 (he was the former champion of the world street fighting tournament) with his deady dragon punch which was the first sign the power growing inside him was getting more evil. (instead of merely defeating the opponent, the power was starting to actually kill people in violent ways.) Now when you analyse akuma, that is basically the path that Ryu could have taken if he wanted to: that of using the evil power to kill people. He didn't do this and decided to hold back his power for ethical reasons. If you pay attention to the change in attitude of the character you'll understand the reason why he holds back: he doesn't want to kill people even though he has the potential to do it.

Like in that example, (where a better skilled person chooses to not use thier killing move and has no care if they lose 'points' because they don't treat killing like a game) Shinn is good but I don't think he is better than kira (holding back from killing) just from that one defeat. If someone is not fighting to thier full potential the opponent should sense that. I think I fully understand why characters like Char went to such great lengths to give Amuro the same technology in CCA. Because he knew his victory would not be a 'decisive one' (see the movie again where he explains this) unless all the conditions were set up to make it so neither had an excuse to "hold back" out of guilt that thier opponent was handicapped in some way.

As I mention earlier, there are some people in this world who treat fighting like a sport to win points. The hero's attitude is that killing is wrong and does not even wish to be a soldier out there killing. Shinn being motivated to kill believes if "I had the power I can change the world with the power". Not as simple as that for those who pay attention to the first season.

The characters that are trying to prove something and get revenge or win a mere a title for glory are not thinking about the big picture. War and suffering won't end just because they have power to kill whoever they want. It only feeds the evil that causes an endless cycle that draws in those little kids who don't even wish to fight but will die anyway.(because if they refuse they will get bullied into the war) If the power was distributed evenly you wouldn't have psychos like Char and Shinn running loose blaming the world for thier pain and who can't leave the past behind because they only think of revenge.

That is why I liken the three ship alliance as being cops trying to stop the neighbors from fighting. Yeah they may accidently kill a few soldiers on thier own homeland and this causes confusing battles, but thier goal is to limit the casualties and protect those who don't wish to see war break out, which is much more important in the grand scheme, so they just disarm the neighbor's weapons in the interest of peace to break up the fighting. (which can't be 100% stopped since all parties are guilty of doing it.) The amount that die fighting against the three ships alliance (mainly soldiers who made a decision to be owned by thier government when they signed up with the military) is miniscule to how many will die from using weapons like Genesis. (innocents who want nothing to do with the war)

In the grand scheme of things there are really only two camps:

-those who believe having immense power will allow people to protect thier loved ones. (ie shinn) Unfortunately others see the power as a threat and envy the power, seeking it for themselves.

-those who believe the power corrupts and causes people to go to extremes to use it for dictatorial control purposes, leading to less safe and less happy world for all. (ie like genesis which in the wrong hands is not merely a deterrent but when used is a threat to all people, not just the soldiers fighting in the war.)

349590[/snapback]

Hey I am not biased, I don't even like the guy. I was referring to the fight between Freedom and Impulse, not Strike Freedom and Destiny. Also, I would really doubt that Kira would want to fire his chest cannon while Strike Freedom's arms were busy blocking a huge arse sword coming down on top of him. With the arms in that type of proximity, to the chest I wouldn't fire that weapon.

You seem to focus on the fact that with all fights, death is the be all and end all. But it isn't. Kira still was fighting to his full potential. So what if he didn't want to kill? He still could have put Shinn away easily and sent him home crying to Rey, but he didn't. Kira underestimated him and LOST. Full stop. Got defeated. And yes it does count. Kira had to at the very least disable Shinn...no he had to at very least defend himself. Dude, the guy would have gotten killed otherwise. Are you telling me that you wouldn't be doing your damnedest if your enemy was going in with the intent of killing you? No way.

Kira is also by no means a saint. Even after he acquired Freedom I am sure that he was indirectly responsible for the deaths of many soldiers on the battlefield. Slicing the wings off Murasames isn't exactly letting them off easily, if I recall correctly there are no ejection seats and crashing into the ocean isn't exactly the softest way to land.

Kira's return with Strike Freedom though is another story entirely. And, I loved the battle between Kira and Shinn, although I wished that they could have faced off again.

And by no means is Shinn the best Gundam pilot ever. He merely one of the top ranking pilots. By doing his homework and making use of Impulse's modular abilities (thinking outside the square, c'mon..would any of us have thought of that?) he managed to defeat a much more powerful Gundam. That was what I admired about him, around that time. After he got Destiny my ratings of him plummeted.

Sorry dude you gotta use another example for me not a street fighter one. Haven't touched an arcade game in four years, and haven't even touched the first SF. I understand the example though don't worry.

The Three Ships Alliance are definitely the heroes of the story. I strongly believe in their ideals as well. Also, while I agree with you that Shinn's attitude to fighting and killing is wrong and unethical, I do not agree that he is continually seeking more power. He is merely a puppet of Dulllindal who makes full use of his gullibility and talents. Yes Shinn needs to wake up and think for himself and the bigger picture, and yes he needs to get over his family being killed at the 1st Battle of Orb. Intrinsically born and bred evil? No way. He just needs to be bitchslapped more by Athrun to get the message into his head. Losing your whole family in one go can seriously mess you up you know.

Edited December 5, 2005 by kensei

[Anubis]

Shinn was an exceptional pilot. His crowning mement was downing the Freedom, but his skill was highlighted by the second episode even when he fought the 3 stolen gundams simultaneously. He dove in and engaged all 3 with the sword sillouette. If his mission wasn't to capture them he probably could have destoyed at least one. Either way he held off all 3 for a good while. He also in no way needed Kira's interference against the first Destroy. If it wasn't Stellar in there he wouldn't have hesitated. He tried, and was succeeding, in at least reaching her, but then Kira came in and screwed stuff up again.

Shinn was a great pilot, and it is explicitly the writer's fault in handing Athurn an easy win and totally ignoring Shinn's quality. The way Athrun was given that fight was an insult to Shinn and the final slap in the face.

Shinn had great potential as a lead. His bitterness and anger was a welcome change to the unconfident or unwilling recruit. He was a skilled pilot who willingly signed up and earned his red ace uniform. They didn't give him a chance to soften up and or expand on his character. They didn't even allow the proper room for the Luna/Shinn relationship that was supposed to build up. Even that had to be forced in.

His character had potential to work with but they threw that away midstep to change the focus to the AA. Stealing the show from the Minerva was the principle failing of Seed Destiny. They destroyed the character development and the momentum they had built before then in order to force feed Kira and co. Athrun's inclusion made sense and worked. They integrated him fine. The AA and crew were a cancer to this show.

[kensei]

That's the thing, Shinn was a victim of bad writing.

Also, I do not believe that Talia would have gotten beaten that easily. That ending was a total cop out.

Edited December 5, 2005 by kensei

[Panon]

The Three Ships Alliance are definitely the heroes of the story.

They very much are not, and it's pretty sickening to even see it suggested.

[Anubis]

The three ships alliance were agents of chaos in Destiny and screwed stuff up for everybody. Orb also didn't help with their stubborness, hypocrisy, and weak leadership.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ok, but what I don't get is why would Shinn blame Cagalli's family for his family's death? Is it because he only supports the side that just so happens to be the most powerful at the time? (for example if orb had the strongest military, highest technology, and weapons to counteract things like genesis etc, and could protect itself from either side invading, he would side with them because they are powerful?) Sorry if this had been covered before but I don't want to read through 200 pages.

I believe the reason shinn joins up as a soldier is that he believes that "power protects" and he feels guilty that he did not have this power to protect his family so he directs anger at the weak nations like orb, totally giving into the propaganda from rey, and to be manipulated as a dullindal chess piece for a new world order. Otherwise he would like orb because by not being neutral it suddenly garuantees peace and security. (ie his logic being that your allies will save your butts) It is confusing to me why he blames orb and not EA and ZAFT who were the guys building the dangerous weapons in the first place. It was the neutral war heroes who saved earth in the first war which lead to peace after the clyne faction got control and when Athrun went against his own dad's orders. Without those people acting on thier own and disarming the mega weapons, things would have been different. Ironically one of the very reasons Cagalli seems "weak" is because Shinn puts her through a massive guilt trip which forces her to question whether she is right to keep true to her father's beliefs. Shinn's bitterness is like that of Patrick Zala from the first series.

And why would Shinn blame Kira for killing stellar when it was Neo who didn't keep his promise to move Stellar away from war and instead putting stellar back into a mobile suit/mobile armor? Kira may have directed the blow, but Shinn should be even more angry at neo for putting her there because Shinn actually trusted him and should be partly the one to blame. All Kira was doing was protecting the innocent civilians from the Destroy, wasn't he? So he is saying the lives of those people living in those cities are not as important as the programmed killing machine whose mind isn't even under her own control? Seems kinda shallow to think kira is to blame when Shinn helped put her back into service as a bioCPU in the first place. This is the very same chic that stole the gaia gundam from his homeland and which he would have killed anyway had he had the power to do so at the start of the show before kira finished her off later when she was levelling cities with Destroy.

Whatever the writers were thinking, Kira and three ships alliance still have the best vision and are the "heroes" imo: they merely want to limit casualties on ALL sides, not just thier own homeland. When your own homeland is run by a bunch of psychos who build the mega weapons like Genesis and then point them not just at soldiers but at innocent people, that is when you start to lose respect for the patriotic characters whose blind loyalty to thier superiors allows for those mass murders to happen because they won't question the sanity of thier own leaders. (I'm glad both patrick zala and the leader of blue cosmos died in the first series, they so deserved it) Killing innocent people that can't even fight back and who for the most part are not interested in war in the first place makes you the lowest lifeform on earth in my eyes. These are the types of people who you can't reason with because they are so blinded by revenge they don't care if they kill thier own just to get the enemy.

It's one of the reasons why AEUG/TSA although rogue and "chaotic", although not "saints", (note I never said Kira was a saint) are the real heroes given they are the only ones who can do something useful. It's just that AEUG or the three ships alliance do not agree with any one faction because each side has been hijacked by evil characters. Because of this, they are the only sane ones for wanting to peace and actually saving lives, not just focused on killing lives which both sides are more concerned with as they develop more powerful WMDs. If both sides were allowed to continue on with killing each other off with the massive weapons that they built, there would be no next generation to carrying on the human race. The heroes to me are the characters that can kill the leaders (Patrick Zala + BC leader) of either side that is controlling the armies who pull the triggers on those weapons and who have no remorse for anyone elses suffering.

When I look back: If Shinn had been a part of the three ships alliance he might have been able to meet the right group of people and not be so hard to sympathise with. The problem is that we the audience are tricked into believing the minerva is supposed to be clone of the AA, (fighting for the exact same cause but in fact loyal mainly to ZAFT) and that the fake lacus is "good", and that dullindal is a benevolent do-gooder rather than a schemer and manipulator. So half of the time we a rooting for the minerva and ZAFT to win, not knowing they are just one of dullindal's pawns instead of the good guys.

Oh and about that fight between shinn and kira:

I looked back and yeah I do see your point about Shinn kicking kira's ass. Hehe. I don't think he expected the thing to split apart like it did or for him to keep pursuing him after he had pretty much wanted to retreat and join up with AA. It was a mistake for him to have turned his back, or to try and block the massive sword with his tiny shield and instead he should have treated Shinn as a much higher threat. But in his defence, if Kira knew who it was he killed (shinn's gf) he probably would have been more cautious. But we all know Freedom was destined to be destroyed eventually anyway so a newer toy/model could be sold.

[azrael]

Ok, but what I don't get is why would Shinn blame Cagalli's family for his family's death? Is it because he only supports the side that just so happens to be the most powerful at the time? (for example if orb had the strongest military, highest technology, and weapons to counteract things like genesis etc, and could protect itself from either side invading, he would side with them because they are powerful?)  Sorry if this had been covered before but I don't want to read through 200 pages.

Shinn blames the Atthas because they acted. If Uzumi Attha just handed ORB over to EA, they would have never had attacked and his family would be alive. But in the end, there was nothing he could have done. Shinn should have been thankful he was alive. His sister was the one who caused the whole family to stop. If they kept running, they might have made down the hill. They were just caught in a crossfire. Nothing more.

And why would Shinn blame Kira for killing stellar when it was Neo who didn't keep his promise to move Stellar away from war and instead putting stellar back into a mobile suit/mobile armor? Kira may have directed the blow, but Shinn should be even more angry at neo for putting her there because Shinn actually trusted him and should be partly the one to blame.  All Kira was doing was protecting the innocent civilians from the Destroy, wasn't he? So he is saying the lives of those people living in those cities are not as important as the programmed killing machine whose mind isn't even under her own control? Seems kinda shallow to think kira is to blame when Shinn helped put her back into service as a bioCPU in the first place. This is the very same chic that stole the gaia gundam from his homeland and which he would have killed anyway had he had the power to do so at the start of the show before kira finished her off later when she was levelling cities with Destroy.

Freedom was the last one to fire. That's why. All 3 of the share the blame but Shinn only recognizes Freedom with the blame. Neo put Stellar in Destroy because she is a weapon. That's what the Extendeds are, weapons. And in war, if you got a useful weapon, you might as well use it. Freedom was the one who did all the work of taking Destroy down. Shinn stood there trying to reason with the psycho girl. And he's the one who gave Stellar back, but that's hindsight, but he should have known better.

[Panon]

Ok, but what I don't get is why would Shinn blame Cagalli's family for his family's death? Is it because he only supports the side that just so happens to be the most powerful at the time?

Shinn's family came to Orb because of their lofty ideals of neutrality, peace and cooperation in place of strength.

Then those ideals turned out to be worth zero, because despite Orb's questionable build up of military power in secret, they were steamrolled by a faction that did use it's strength.

That's why, years later when we jump ahead to Destiny's time, Shinn's stated goal is attaining the strength to protect what he cares about. The fact Orb sold out their ideals and immediately jumped into bed with their conquerers and joined up for Project Kill All Coordinators was only a further betrail.

And why would Shinn blame Kira for killing stellar when it was Neo who didn't keep his promise to move Stellar away from war and instead putting stellar back into a mobile suit/mobile armor?

Because if Kira hadn't been there Stellar probably would have lived.

Neo stopped Shinn from unknowingly killing her. Kira was the one who pressed the attack against Destroy multiple times when it had stopped it's own attacks, Kira's presence was what made Stellar flip out after Shinn had calmed her down, and Kira was the one who directly killed her.

Whatever the writers were thinking, Kira and three ships alliance still have the best vision and are the "heroes" imo: they merely want to limit casualties on ALL sides, not just thier own homeland.

This is complete nonsense, and the show clearly displayed it as such. The three ships group were completely absorbed with putting their own interests and that of their precious Orb (which is the centre of the universe and always right) above all else.

Freedom was the one who did all the work of taking Destroy down.

You must be joking. Kira flew circles around Destroy bouncing beam rifle shots into surrounding buildings. He did nothing until Shinn had actually stopped her.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Panon

[kensei]

Oh and about that fight between shinn and kira:

I looked back and yeah I do see your point about Shinn kicking kira's ass. Hehe. I don't think he expected the thing to split apart like it did or for him to keep pursuing him after he had pretty much wanted to retreat and join up with AA. It was a mistake for him to have turned his back, or to try and block the massive sword with his tiny shield and instead he should have treated Shinn as a much higher threat. But in his defence, if Kira knew who it was he killed (shinn's gf) he probably would have been more cautious. But we all know Freedom was destined to be destroyed eventually anyway so a newer toy/model could be sold.    

349701[/snapback]

I am on the fence about that. Kira didn't do anything much but get "spotted" by Stellar. It was only then did Stellar freak out. Kira killed her then before she could do more damage.

Kinda justified IMO. I don't think that he was totally in the wrong.

All the new model comment? Too right. But Strike Freedom is[/is] an awesome piece of work anyway.

Freedom was the last one to fire. That's why. All 3 of the share the blame but Shinn only recognizes Freedom with the blame. Neo put Stellar in Destroy because she is a weapon. That's what the Extendeds are, weapons. And in war, if you got a useful weapon, you might as well use it. Freedom was the one who did all the work of taking Destroy down. Shinn stood there trying to reason with the psycho girl. And he's the one who gave Stellar back, but that's hindsight, but he should have known better.

Problem is, Stellar was going to die if she didn't get the treatment she needed. He was damned if he didn't anyway.

Edited December 6, 2005 by kensei

[kalvasflam]

The three ships alliance were agents of chaos in Destiny and screwed stuff up for everybody.  Orb also didn't help with their stubborness, hypocrisy, and weak leadership.

349663[/snapback]

Agreed, can anyone tell me what Kira et al really stand for?

Oh, and speaking of Neo/Mwu, the ruthless user of innocent children as weapons, the evil SOB who manipulated Orb to do all his dirtywork, whatever did happen to him?

Oh right... heh heh, he "recovered" his memory and became a hero. Ain't that funny. Wait a minute, who did he join again? Oh yeah, ha ha, the 3-ship alliance.

Oh yes, let me assist in the death of tens of thousands, and all I have to do is claim I lost my memory, and all is well. Heh heh, that would sure fly.

Edited December 6, 2005 by kalvasflam

[wolfx]

Agreed, can anyone tell me what Kira et al really stand for? 

Lacus' slaves. Lacus just happens to be better than Dullindal and with added T&A as well.

Oh, and speaking of Neo/Mwu, the ruthless user of innocent children as weapons, the evil SOB  who manipulated Orb to do all his dirtywork, whatever did happen to him?

Oh right...  heh heh, he "recovered" his memory and became a hero.  Ain't that funny.  Wait a minute, who did he join again?  Oh yeah, ha ha, the 3-ship alliance.

Oh yes, let me assist in the death of tens of thousands, and all I have to do is claim I lost my memory, and all is well.  Heh heh, that would sure fly.

349912[/snapback]

Well, he did say he was the man who can make the impossible possible, in his defence.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

This is complete nonsense, and the show clearly displayed it as such. The three ships group were completely absorbed with putting their own interests and that of their precious Orb (which is the centre of the universe and always right) above all else.

But that's why they were good. Because thier interests were more "important" than the secondary characters' goals which came down to "revenge revenge revenge" which as it was illustrated to us in the first series by patrick zala's behaviour was a bad naugthy thing.

Eg of "goals for secondary characters/organisations":

ZAFT - dullindal scheming for world domination by using innocent people as pawns in a game.

Logos - create chaos using Blue Cosmos (responsible for the start of war by sneaking nukes to destroy colonies) and later manipulate the Earth Alliance like a puppet from behind the scenes. (some forcing orb to join them - thanks to blue cosmos extremists within EA, when this action wasn't even necessary)

So in the end it is a battle of who is closest to the truth. To me, whoever offers the people the most freedom is the "good" side. (traditionally it has been those fighting for peace and disarmament: AEUG, the rebel alliance from star wars, ORB etc) The main difference and distinction is that three ships alliance do not hold ambitions to wipe out the very races they hate so much in the belief war will suddenly end by killing a specifc group ...or... raping people of thier freedom by believing that having no choices brings peace. Dullindal wanted everyone to be a slave to what the government says you can and can't do, with him as the messiah. Don't like it? You die. He's god after all. Same goes with Talia and Rey who in the end, realised they were fighting for the wrong team.

If they had just realised it earlier, they would have joined the TSA in thier fight. But becuase they are of a certain "race"(ie co-ordinator) they gave into thier own predjudice not thinking for a second they could be a little too trusting of thier own side, and in the wrong all along. The writers needed us to believe they were "good" so as not to spoil the "surprise" that dulindal could be the villain in all this, so they make us view it from ZAFT's and the minerva's perspective in the beginning, that's how I see it. Kind of like in Gundam 0080 where the little kid learned that neither side is right and that the reason to fight is just up to the individual and for thier own reasons and belief. No need to feel sorry for them or to pity them or cry if they die doing it. Orb is like that neutral colony that little kid was living in.

So like that neutral colony I think the people would be much happier living in a world ruled by orb where people truly are free because there is no discrimination, and no threat to force belief onto people by putting a gun to your head just because of who you are.

Kind of like what happened at the end of Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz where the world almost became a global dictatorship when people were at thier weakest, unable to fight back at the dictator because they were ignorant and complacent; too busy fighting each other to realise who was mysteriously benefitting from all the fighting in the grand scheme. In the end, thanks to the heroes fight for independance against marimeia's elite army, the power was distributed evenly and back into the hands of the people who will decide thier fate for themselves while the gundams were destroyed never to be seen again. Fighting to free yourself for a better tommorow is ok - those who don't fight for thier freedom don't deserve it. ...But killing people for personal revenge only feeds the cycle of war. I'd rather fight because I want to stop the leader from continuing the war than because of a personal vendetta. (ie like Patrick Zala) It's a much more noble reason. And I don't think anyone who got killed by kira after the first war, was for selfish "revenge" reasons, but rather to preserve the noble "only fight for peace" ideal. (so anyone who gets in the way of this ideal may die fighting to stop him. Because this ideal is more important, it takes higher priority. It is not "selfish" since everyone will benefit from the safety destroying the WMDs, not just a power-hungry leaders who only want to control the other side as opposed to saving lives being thier highest priority.)

That's the goal of TSA: kill off the bad guys on each side of the conflict so the human race can get back to peace again, limiting the number of people kira ends up killing by ending it quickly. While protecting the innocent like Lacus from assasination attempts by these corrupt leaders and preserving the neutral nations from bullying by the two powers. You can't do that while under the control of either government as a soldier because of the level of corruption that goes on. Call it selfish all you want, but that is the truth. The difference is either side fights each other for power and then creates and uses WMD (which does not discriminate between soldiers and civilians) behind the other guy's back in secret, while orb at least fights for true peace and true freedom, only concerned with protecting thier own land by having just enough power to defend themself. (is that such a sin? Should the natives welcome invaders and lay down thier arms like pussies?)

So Orb and TSA is the lesser of the three evils imo. It would be unreasonable to expect TSA to be total pacificsts and not harm anyone to protect cagalli if it meant a better future for the human race. You can't say it isn't the TSA business to butt its nose in the war when they have been the ones to save either side from destruction in the past using thier skills to save life. That's just ingrateful. It's not selfish to care what will happen if massive weapons like Genesis get in the wrong hands and are used by the leaders of each side for revenge or to stoop to each other's level just to "get even". If characters like Patrick Zala had continued to exist and do what they wanted he would have murdered innocent people. Same goes for the BC leader if the "heroine" did not turn against him.

The thing to remember is that soldiers for ZAFT and EA (like the two pilots in gundam 0080) do what they are told to do because they are not allowed to look at the big picture, but we as an audience member watching the war unfold, are allowed to see that there are definite heroes and villains because we get to view the war from all sides.

Edited December 6, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[kalvasflam]

joined the TSA

349990[/snapback]

The Transportation Security Agency? Why would anyone want to join the TSA, and why are they involved with Logos, ZAFT, and GSD?

P.S. When you say killing off the bad guys... who are they again? I thought it was Kira et al... you mean they should've committed suicide?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

TSA = three ships alliance

Example of bad guys:

All those controlled by logos. Leaders like Patrick Zala who want to wipe out non-co-ordinators and will kill civilians just because he lost his wife to a terror attack, (blinded by revenge, can't be reasoned with since he went insane) the BC leader who would go so low as to destroy harmless colonies rather than fighting soldiers. Dullindal for trying to assasinate Clyne so he can manipulate the public into beliving she is aproving of everything he says to complete his master plan to rule both Co-ordinator and natural alike now that the pesky "obstacles" are out of the way..

By stopping/killing/imprisoning the bad guys, it usually ends up bringing true peace and an end to the senseless war (since the people were manpulated by logos and dullindal from the beginning) and so when that goal is achieved everyone lives happily.

Talia and those serving under her are not necessarily bad just misguided for not seeing through dullindal. (similar to emma from Zeta Gundam before she defected from the titans after witnessing thier true nature)

Even Rey isn't necessarily bad because he realised his "dad" was just using him in the end for his ambition. (like Patrick was using Athrun)

Why they are "bad" is because the original characters grew and "changed", while Shinn didn't change and/or couldn't see beyond getting even. They look at it from a narrow perspective and not realising that the cycle of war only feeds more hatred and more war. While that happens more power goes to organisations like logos and dullindal which gives them an excuse to introduce more dictatorial controls on people (centralising the power so that it is held by dullindal as supreme leader ) and rape them of freedoms they once had before the war began in the first place. Ie like Palpatine in star wars prequel trilogy. "We need these controls and the build up of these armies for your security and safety" yeaaah right, nothing to do setting yourself up as world ruler who will oppress the weak once yu've gain people's trust If you think about it Orb would have been owned if they didn't take a more proactive aproach to stopping the war.

Although some of the bad guys (and some good guys) have interesting and truthful points to make, they are all in a way victims of thier environment. eg, Kira was created by his dad in search for the ultimate co-ordinator, and therefore the clones (that Mu La Flaga's dad created to provide funding so Kira could be made by his dad), are now angry at humans for using them for thier own selfish reasons, rather than caring what they wanted. But it is stupid for character's like Rey to hate Kira because he is the ultimate co-ordinator. Kira couldn't help what his dad or previous people have done to "design" him. It won't suddenly end all the problems of the world just by killing him, which is what rey was brainwashed to believe was his life's goal by dullindal. Characters like Rey and Patrick Zala and Crueset and Dullindal (for not excepting rejection easily) should leave the past behind and live for the future. Their reason for existing in the story is so they can destroy lots of stuff.

But just because they are victims, that doesn't mean they can't also be villains for plotting to kill everyone when they go all psycho like char in CCA. Because they are bitter and won't let go of the past which they couldn't control, they think they are justified in doing bad stuff and killing innocent people, or setting themselves up as god and then judge the whole human race by trying to "punish". So they have to be killed or stopped when they go out of control to at the least, try to limit the damage they do, which can't be helped.

Edited December 7, 2005 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[grss1982]

Question:

Is it just me or are the mobile armors in GSD, espcially the non-transformable giant ones SUCK?

I watched some clips of U.C. mobile armors especially those post-OYW types and they look AWESOME compared to GSD's MA.

Case in point:

AMX-002 (from 0083)

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/0083/amx-002.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMA-002_Neue_Ziel

VS.

YMAF-X6BD Zamza-Zah (from GSD)

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/ymaf-x6bd.htm

http://images.google.com.ph/images?hl=tl&q...pin&sa=N&tab=wi

(sorry could'nt find animated GIFs of these one.)

In terms of aesthetics the AMX-002 takes the cake, IMHO. In weapons and defensive systems (I-beam vs. Positron Deflector) though they seem to cancel each other out.

Edited December 7, 2005 by grss1982

[Anubis]

The Neue Ziel was pure canned badass.

Seed Mobile armors wish they could do stuff like that. Even the Destroy only wishes it could do stuff like that, and by all rights should have been able too, if not for the crappy writing underutilizing all that destructive potential.

In space especially the Destroy should have been a demon.

[grss1982]

The Neue Ziel was pure canned badass.

Seed Mobile armors wish they could do stuff like that.  Even the Destroy only wishes it could do stuff like that, and by all rights should have been able too, if not for the crappy writing underutilizing all that destructive potential.

In space especially the Destroy should have been a demon.

350273[/snapback]

Oh Yeah, here's another badass MA from CCA this time:

NZ-333 a Azieru

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/cca/nz-333.htm

Man this thing was one BADASS!!! Although its pilot was pretty much one of the most annoying characters I have ever seen in a Gundam series/movie.

Edited December 7, 2005 by grss1982

[kalvasflam]

Ah, the Neue Ziel, now that was an MA. Personally I liked it more than the Azieru. Mainly because it was not piloted by a newtype.

But it kicked ass anyway. GP03 never stood a chance against it... at least not in Kou's hands.

Destroy was supposed to be equivalent to Psycho Gundam I guess, but it was utterly unimpressive because they gave it to Stella. Bah.... but that just goes to show you how bad the characterization was in GSD.

[azrael]

Question:

Is it just me or are the mobile armors in GSD, espcially the non-transformable giant ones SUCK?

I watched some clips of U.C. mobile armors especially those post-OYW types and they look AWESOME compared to GSD's MA. ...

350265[/snapback]

Different artist, different style. Different technology (i.e. different set of rules from the producers) as well.

[grss1982]

Question:

Is it just me or are the mobile armors in GSD, espcially the non-transformable giant ones SUCK?

I watched some clips of U.C. mobile armors especially those post-OYW types and they look AWESOME compared to GSD's MA. ...

350265[/snapback]

Different artist, different style. Different technology (i.e. different set of rules from the producers) as well.

350297[/snapback]

SOOOOO WHAT?

I just posted those comments to point out something that GSD does'nt have. What's your problem anyway? You've been breathing down my neck in other threads here in MW for the last few months.

Anyway, GSD did bring back the ZAKU, so why not bring something else from U.C., like post-OYW mobile armors for instance.

[azrael]

SOOOOO WHAT?

I just posted those comments to point out something that GSD does'nt have. What's your problem anyway? You've been breathing down my neck in other threads here in MW for the last few months.

Anyway, GSD did bring back the ZAKU, so why not bring something else from U.C., like post-OYW mobile armors for instance.

350307[/snapback]

Did I kill your pet or soemthing? Calm down, it was only a comment.

There's a lot of things GSD didn't have (a decent story among others). Zakus, DOMs, and Goufs were the most memorable of MSs from MSG, not so much on the MAs. They brought those designs and names back to pay tribute. If they brought back more stuff from MSG or from anywhere else, I'd consider that plagerism. Hell, there's enough recycling in Gundam, period. Irregardless of whether they are horrible, it's nice to know they tried a new design. Heck, the Moebius Zero and Exus may not have been the best MAs, but I still see it as a decent design.

[grss1982]

SOOOOO WHAT?

I just posted those comments to point out something that GSD does'nt have. What's your problem anyway? You've been breathing down my neck in other threads here in MW for the last few months.

Anyway, GSD did bring back the ZAKU, so why not bring something else from U.C., like post-OYW mobile armors for instance.

350307[/snapback]

Did I kill your pet or soemthing? Calm down, it was only a comment.

There's a lot of things GSD didn't have (a decent story among others). Zakus, DOMs, and Goufs were the most memorable of MSs from MSG, not so much on the MAs. They brought those designs and names back to pay tribute. If they brought back more stuff from MSG or from anywhere else, I'd consider that plagerism. Hell, there's enough recycling in Gundam, period. Irregardless of whether they are horrible, it's nice to know they tried a new design. Heck, the Moebius Zero and Exus may not have been the best MAs, but I still see it as a decent design.

350370[/snapback]

Agreed!! The Mobeuis and Exass seems to be decent designs for MA. But I'm still hankering for fleet busters like the Neue Zeil.

BTW, azrael, Disregard my previous reaction, I was just stressed out with all the backlogs I have here at work.

TRULY SORRY!!!

[Seven]

It's more than likely the Alpha Azieru would have had the upper hand on the Neue Ziel. Although its an unfair comparison since the Alpha Azieru came many years after with the advantage of new technology. I love the massive firepower of the Alpha - the mega particle cannons, the funnels, the bigass boosters.

The Val Varro or whatever it was called from 0083 (the red MA piloted by Kelly) was pretty nice too.

Hands down my favorite MA has to be the GP03 Dendobrium Stamen. I love how ugly that thing is. The assymmetry of the bigass cannon on one side and a tiny I field generator on the other with missile packs on the top and gigantic boosters speak of function over looks.

I didn't like how Okawara tried to come up with his own version with the half assed Meteor in GS.

[Loner]

The GP03 was spectacular in Gundam Evolve 4.

[kalvasflam]

It's more than likely the Alpha Azieru would have had the upper hand on the Neue Ziel.  Although its an unfair comparison since the Alpha Azieru came many years after with the advantage of new technology.  I love the massive firepower of the Alpha - the mega particle cannons, the funnels, the bigass boosters.

The Val Varro or whatever it was called from 0083 (the red MA piloted by Kelly) was pretty nice too.

Hands down my favorite MA has to be the GP03 Dendobrium Stamen.  I love how ugly that thing is.  The assymmetry of the bigass cannon on one side and a tiny I field generator on the other with missile packs on the top and gigantic boosters speak of function over looks.

I didn't like how Okawara tried to come up with his own version with the half assed Meteor in GS.

350568[/snapback]

Personally, I think the Neue Ziel was a bit better, but I liked the flexibility of GP03. All those missiles and extra bazookas... oh, and the beam sabers weren't bad either. Looking at the two designs, the GP03 was more of a heavy anti-mobile suit weapon, although with its beam cannon, and saber, it could just as easily be a ship killer. But in combat action, the Neue Ziel was a much better fleet killer.

If the two fought together, the GP03 would go ahead of the Neue Ziel and clear out the MS, and the Neue Ziel would go kill the heavy warships.

Edited December 8, 2005 by kalvasflam

[Anubis]

The Mobius seemed like it should have been a decent MA. Maybe if it could have autoslided like a starfury.

The way it was presented though it didn't perform much better than a Ball in UC. The Mobius could carry more weapons than a Ball, but several could be pwned easily by only one or two Ginns.

The GP03 Dendrobium was classified as a Prototype Foothold Defensive Mobile Armor.

Slaughtering multiple mobile suits was definately it's speciality, as shown in Evolve 4. After the suits it could easily dispatch the mother ship.

The Neue Ziel was a pure powerful fleet killer. It was sweet.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Anubis

[Mechafan]

If the two fought together, the GP03 would go ahead of the Neue Ziel and clear out the MS, and the Neue Ziel would go kill the heavy warships.

Now that is a good combination.

I do like all four Neue Ziel, Alpha Azieru, GP03 Dendobrium Stamen and M.E.T.E.O.R units. I just wished the M.E.T.E.O.R had more missle banks. Then it could be up there with the GP03 Dendobrium Stamen. If I had to take my pick it would be a Strike Freedom paired with the M.E.T.E.O.R.

Edited December 10, 2005 by Mechafan

[slideshot]

Wasn't the Neue Ziel's only major flaw that it had primarily beam weapons? I just remember seeing in 0083 that it couldn't do anything against the Stamen until it knocked out the I-field generator - whereas the stamen could pound it with missiles.

I'm going to have to see that series again sometime soon.

If the two fought together, the GP03 would go ahead of the Neue Ziel and clear out the MS, and the Neue Ziel would go kill the heavy warships.

Now that is a good combination.

I do like all four Neue Ziel, Alpha Azieru, GP03 Dendobrium Stamen and M.E.T.E.O.R units. I just wished the M.E.T.E.O.R had more missle banks. Then it could be up there with the GP03 Dendobrium Stamen. If I had to take my pick it would be a Strike Freedom paired with the M.E.T.E.O.R.

351225[/snapback]

[Beltane70]

I noticed how this discussion of GS/GSD Mobile Armors vs. UC MAs seems to omit some of the very cheesy MA designs for the original MS Gundam series.

Let's face it, both Gundam universes had their fair share of bad designs. Everytime I see the Zakrello, I still think, wtf were they thinking when they designed that?!!

[wolfx]

Big Zam .....that's just weird.