Doom 3 system requirements

[JsARCLIGHT]

Most games "Go Gold" nowadays thanks to stores like Gamestop, EBGames, Best Buy and others offering pre-sales on titles that have not even reached alpha compiles yet. The second someone says something about a possible release of a game these stores slap a price on it and start offering pre-sales. Hell... they were preselling that Nintendo DS seconds after they got pictures of it.

[Greyryder]

Most games "Go Gold" nowadays thanks to stores like Gamestop, EBGames, Best Buy and others offering pre-sales on titles that have not even reached alpha compiles yet. The second someone says something about a possible release of a game these stores slap a price on it and start offering pre-sales. Hell... they were preselling that Nintendo DS seconds after they got pictures of it.

"Gold" is the term they use when the game is finished, and ready for production.

[Max Jenius]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

But where does opinion end and fact begin? You could be of the opinion that Matt Groening is a better at drawing than Leonardo DaVinci. You could be of the opinion that SDF Macross is better animation than DYRL?. I would argue that the facts of the matter are quite the opposite.

Except that, aside from you, Sundown, and Max, no one has strongly argued that the mouse and keyboard is definatively better than a gamepad. And I haven't even been arguing that the gamepad is better... just that PC gamers seem unwilling to accpet that their choice is an opinion based on a matter of personal preference, and continue to work with the assumption that they are in fact working with the best equipment.

When does opinion become fact? It can never actually become fact... anyone who says that he thinks Groening is a better artist than DaVinci is actually entitled to that belief. The closest thing an opinion can become to fact is when it is excepted by an overwhelming majority... which goes back to the point that I was trying to make earlier that Sundown seemed to miss when I said that the Xbox version of Doom 3 will outsell the PC version. It is true that my point said nothing about controller effectivness... I'm not trying to claim one is better than the other, nor was I claiming that sales figures decide that one is better than the other. My point about sales figures is that PC gamers have become the vast minority. Most gamers out there will buy Doom for the Xbox, because that's what they use for their games. Most gamers out there will use the gamepad, because that's what they're used to (and no, there is NOT a mouse for the Xbox- at least, not one sold outside of internet stores like Lik Sang). The majority of gamers, given a mouse and keyboard setup, wouldn't even know what to do with it. Sundown is right to say that says nothing about which is truly the better setup, but what I'm saying is that mouse and keyboard PC gamers are the minority, and yet they're convinced that the majority is wrong, and that their mouse and keyboard preference should be taken as factual evidence of the gamepad's inferiority.

Hence, the stereotype (I'll admit that it's a stereotype, since most of the PC gamers I know don't fit the bill) that PC gamers are elitists. And hence, why people like Druna are leaving the thread. Any argument against the mouse and keyboard as factually superior is taken as a personal insult, and automatic siding with the gamepad, and a comment of profound stupidity by a few people who are normally very rational, intelligent people in other threads that just can't get over the fact that their opinion is nothing more than their personal preference, and the preferences of the minority. (Truthfully, gamers who prefer the gamepad are a minority as well... the majority actually wouldn't have a preference, having possibly recognized that there are people who play games on PCs, but have never actually considered playing with one themselves.)

Well then come up with something other than what you've pulled out of your ass. The poeple whome you refer to as "PC Gamers" on THIS board have stated up and down that they own and play both. So we go from making broad assumptions about the preferred control style of every person that buys an FPS on a console to making broad assumptions about how many times someone plays in a week? My choice is an opinion, but whether or not something is superior is another. Some people like certain fighter planes better than others, but there still are planes that are superior for their respective areas.

The people arguing for the KB+mouse have come up with tons of different opinions from gaming forums, magazines and personal experience. But all I'm seeing for the joypad is hearsay and logic leaps that would rival certain UFOlogists I've heard on the radio(Coast to Coast AM... sleepy time). What I'm seeing is arguments getting "sniped" as it were mainly by Sundown... and people leaving... that never looks good. This is an anime forum so the number of gamers is up in the air. PA is a gaming forum, there's a review site . . . vs "my friend" this and "some guys" that...

Plus you have yet to back up these claims with numbers and sales figures to at least in SOME WAY support this... Such sweeping statements with nothing behind it but your awesome avatar.

Why don't you ask any CS server. There are joypads available for the PC that have everything a modern console has to offer(many buttons, 2 sticks)...

The people arguing for gamepads can't seem to understand that there is an easier way to do things. Oh... and PC players play a multitude of games too... ever hear of RTS games(another bad console port)? What about MMOs? RPGs? Sims? Hell, whenever I play a PC port of a console game MOST of the time I use my joypad because that's how it was intended to be played and that's the better tool for the job. The only exceptions I can think of are 3rd Person games that were made to be essentially FPS games where you can see your character(Max Payne, GTA3/VC, Bloodrayne) and any emulated fighting game.

I just installed Quake III... who wants to prove me wrong? I haven't touched an FPS on the PC all summer and I only set up my buttons/character model. I also haven't played competitively in over a year and a half. I'm sure Q3 is out there somewhere and its an excellent example of a generic FPS to test the theory, no location based damage... just point n shoot. I'll ask again.. who wants to prove me wrong?

Also... Halo clocks in at 3.18 per Magic Box. HL clocks in at over 8 million according to HL2Central that says according to Valve.

Assuming that they sold the same amount every year(I know that's not true... but lets make a point)...

Halflife PC- approx 1.6 million units per year since its release...

Halo XBOX- approx 1.6 units per year since its release...

That's not counting CS retail either.... So Half-Life... one of the most popular FPS games of all time vs Halo... arguably the most popular console FPS of all time..... it doesn't take a 4 year old with a mouse to figure out that 8 million is VASTLY greater than 3.18. Sure it had more time, however by the logic displayed earlier... that's 8 million mouse users vs 3.18 pad users. With HL2 and Halo 2 on the horizon both appear to be at the end of their life cycle... HL's figures have probably slowed to a trickle as Halo's probably have. In any case, that's irrelevant... there are 8 million copies of HL PC vs 3.18 of Halo. So how do you "know" that Doom 3 for xbox will outsell Doom 3 PC?

Already Doom 3 on PC is out-doing both HL2 and Halo 2 in pre-orders. Amazon.com also lists Doom 3 PC as many places ahead of Halo in their figures. Doom 3 XBOX isn't on the list.... Oh yeah... and HL2 is about even w/ Halo 2. Per the pcvsconsole.com forums.

Feel free to correct these numbers. I got them off of pcvsconsole.com.

This mouse debate gets easier every day.

[wolfx]

I would also like to see a battle between a joypad user and a normal mouse + keyboard user at any given game. I'm quite sure what the results would be, but this would be quite an interesting match.

[Max Jenius]

I would also like to see a battle between a joypad user and a normal mouse + keyboard user at any given game. I'm quite sure what the results would be, but this would be quite an interesting match. 

I can record a demo if anyone steps up to the plate.

Hell, they can even PRACTICE for a month. I will not touch the game. Then we'll play. With punkbuster if possible... or observers to help verify the legitimacy... the demo will also help.

I'm not the greatest FPS player in the world either, nor do I claim to be. But I'm willing to put my pride on the line.

[Pat S]

The resolution a mouse offers is far above any joystick. The mouse rolls 360 degrees in one full circle of the ball (if it's got one and not an optical mouse), and can roll several times before reaching the end of a mouse pad, giving potentially several thousand degrees of movement in one quick motion.

A joystick can usually only move a max of 180 degrees from one side to the other. If the joystick is set to control the view of the player, if you want to look around behind you, you move the stick to one side (so 90 degrees from center), and the speed that you rotate is determined by the rate the game has setup. Never blindingly fast. With a mouse, to rotate 180, once you have some familiarity with the speeds, you can rotate very precicely 180 degrees with one flick of the wrist.

If you were to have a race between a joystick and a mouse to perform 30 360 degree revolutions, the mouse player would be done long before the joystick player due to the fact that the mouse player can move his hand much faster than the turn rate in a game for a joystick would allow.

Edited July 26, 2004 by Pat S

[JsARCLIGHT]

"Gold" is the term they use when the game is finished, and ready for production.

I thought it was the same thing as the record industry in that games, like albums, can go "Gold" and "Platinum"... meaning they hit a certain very high level of sales.

Well then, that title is very deceiving then. Certain sites (mentioned in my other post) never seem to claim "Gold" status on games that suck only on games that everyone wants that seem to sell tons before they are even ready to ship.

[Ladic]

"Gold" is the term they use when the game is finished, and ready for production.

I thought it was the same thing as the record industry in that games, like albums, can go "Gold" and "Platinum"... meaning they hit a certain very high level of sales.

Well then, that title is very deceiving then. Certain sites (mentioned in my other post) never seem to claim "Gold" status on games that suck only on games that everyone wants that seem to sell tons before they are even ready to ship.

that is because noone cares about games that suck, as oposed games with huge hype like Doom3, HL2, etc.

[Skull Leader]

I am a diehard believer in the joys of the mouselook function. Give me just enough time to acclimate myself to any game and I will at least give a pro "pad" gamer a run for his money.

In one hand I have all the look function and fire control/selection (with a simple 3-button optical mouse)I will ever need... and on the other hand, anything else I could ever want, all mapped to my fingertips.

Of course, it's really all about what you're used to... but set me down with my keyboard/mouse next to a game-pad gamer and give us a new FPS we've never played, and there's little doubt in my mind who will be whooping ass sooner. It's just that much easier.

[wolfx]

"Gold" is the term they use when the game is finished, and ready for production.

I thought it was the same thing as the record industry in that games, like albums, can go "Gold" and "Platinum"... meaning they hit a certain very high level of sales.

Well then, that title is very deceiving then. Certain sites (mentioned in my other post) never seem to claim "Gold" status on games that suck only on games that everyone wants that seem to sell tons before they are even ready to ship.

Thought it was pretty well known when a title goes GOLD it means the game is ready and ready for pass production? The term was derived from the game compiled and copied onto the master GOLD disc (not sure if its color is GOLD) which is sent to the factory to be mass produced.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I guess then it shows how old I am and how "non-sprekenzie-compu-geek" I am. I still think in terms of the '80s. To me, "Gone Gold" has always meant Michael Jackson sold a million Thriller albums.

[Max Jenius]

I guess then it shows how old I am and how "non-sprekenzie-compu-geek" I am. I still think in terms of the '80s. To me, "Gone Gold" has always meant Michael Jackson sold a million Thriller albums.

I used to think that too...

and before they go gold, I heard that there's something called a "glass master" that being a glass cd with ink printed on it. I dunno though... sounded weird.

[Radd]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

But where does opinion end and fact begin? You could be of the opinion that Matt Groening is a better at drawing than Leonardo DaVinci. You could be of the opinion that SDF Macross is better animation than DYRL?. I would argue that the facts of the matter are quite the opposite.

Except that, aside from you, Sundown, and Max, no one has strongly argued that the mouse and keyboard is definatively better than a gamepad. And I haven't even been arguing that the gamepad is better... just that PC gamers seem unwilling to accpet that their choice is an opinion based on a matter of personal preference, and continue to work with the assumption that they are in fact working with the best equipment.

When does opinion become fact? It can never actually become fact... anyone who says that he thinks Groening is a better artist than DaVinci is actually entitled to that belief. The closest thing an opinion can become to fact is when it is excepted by an overwhelming majority... which goes back to the point that I was trying to make earlier that Sundown seemed to miss when I said that the Xbox version of Doom 3 will outsell the PC version. It is true that my point said nothing about controller effectivness... I'm not trying to claim one is better than the other, nor was I claiming that sales figures decide that one is better than the other. My point about sales figures is that PC gamers have become the vast minority. Most gamers out there will buy Doom for the Xbox, because that's what they use for their games. Most gamers out there will use the gamepad, because that's what they're used to (and no, there is NOT a mouse for the Xbox- at least, not one sold outside of internet stores like Lik Sang). The majority of gamers, given a mouse and keyboard setup, wouldn't even know what to do with it. Sundown is right to say that says nothing about which is truly the better setup, but what I'm saying is that mouse and keyboard PC gamers are the minority, and yet they're convinced that the majority is wrong, and that their mouse and keyboard preference should be taken as factual evidence of the gamepad's inferiority.

Hence, the stereotype (I'll admit that it's a stereotype, since most of the PC gamers I know don't fit the bill) that PC gamers are elitists. And hence, why people like Druna are leaving the thread. Any argument against the mouse and keyboard as factually superior is taken as a personal insult, and automatic siding with the gamepad, and a comment of profound stupidity by a few people who are normally very rational, intelligent people in other threads that just can't get over the fact that their opinion is nothing more than their personal preference, and the preferences of the minority. (Truthfully, gamers who prefer the gamepad are a minority as well... the majority actually wouldn't have a preference, having possibly recognized that there are people who play games on PCs, but have never actually considered playing with one themselves.)

I'm hoping you misunderstood my argument. Art takes skill to produce. Someone does not become 'good' simply because a certain number of people arbitrarily settle into the opinion that they are good. Sure, someone can like one artist over another, even if the artist they like is less skilled, that is opinion.

I mean when Pope Benedict asked Giotto for a drawing to prove his worth as an artist, what he did was draw a perfect circle freehand. Perfection is a powerful message.

Also, I did not mean "when do opinions magically turn into facts" I mean there is a division between fact and opinion. There are tools better suited to certain tasks than others. You try using a hammer to take a watch apart and put it back together in perfect working order. Sure, you'll probably be able to take it apart rather quickly, but good luck putting it back together. Is it simply my opinion that a hammer is not a very good tool for watch repair?

Try drawing on a computer with a mouse, then try with Wacom tablet. There will be a noticible difference in the quality of the work simply because a tablet is better suited to the task. I've seen few people argue this one, and those that did didn't have very convincing portfolios.

There are some that perhaps believe a Model T is a better racecar than a 2005 Mustang. Guess who is going to win the race, though, despite what opinions those people might hold?

I agree with you that numbers prove nothing in this argument, no more than the box office numbers prove that Titanic was a good movie.

I don't see anyone in this thread, no one at all, saying that a keyboard and mouse are better than a gamepad in all regards, simply a few people pointing out that a keyboard and mouse are simply better suited towards a specific type of game. I'm not a huge fan of FPS games, but for those few FPS games that I do play, I prefere the keyboard and mouse combo because of the fact that it works better. I used to abhor the idea, it took a roommate of mine, sitting me down, setting up my controls and forcing me to give it a try.

Does it mean that this combo is the best for all games? Hell no, just try playing a fighting game with a keyboard and mouse.

[Sundown]

The closest thing an opinion can become to fact is when it is excepted by an overwhelming majority...

Facts are not determined by popular vote. Facts are objective truths, although there is often some correlation between the two.

  Most gamers out there will use the gamepad, because that's what they're used to (and no, there is NOT a mouse for the Xbox- at least, not one sold outside of internet stores like Lik Sang).  The majority of gamers, given a mouse and keyboard setup, wouldn't even know what to do with it.  Sundown is right to say that says nothing about which is truly the better setup, but what I'm saying is that mouse and keyboard PC gamers are the minority, and yet they're convinced that the majority is wrong, and that their mouse and keyboard preference should be taken as factual evidence of the gamepad's inferiority.

I didn't miss your point. You were trying to say that the mouse cannot be the better device, by mere fact that players playing on gamepads (in your figures, and don't apply when we take the FPS market as a whole) outnumber players on mice. And you were trying to imply that no device can be better if it's not preferred by the majority... and to imply such, even to offer factual arguments about physics and human physiology, is still to be "elitist".

Unless you're trying to say that the mouse can be a better device... but to actually say so... is elitism.

  Most gamers out there will use the gamepad, because that's what they're used to (and no, there is NOT a mouse for the Xbox- at least, not one sold outside of internet stores like Lik Sang).  The majority of gamers, given a mouse and keyboard setup, wouldn't even know what to do with it.  Sundown is right to say that says nothing about which is truly the better setup, but what I'm saying is that mouse and keyboard PC gamers are the minority, and yet they're convinced that the majority is wrong, and that their mouse and keyboard preference should be taken as factual evidence of the gamepad's inferiority.

It's not my preference that should be taken as evidence, although the majority preference of collective communities of FPS diehards, especially those who exclusively favor FPS's over any other genre, as opposed to those who buy consoles to play other genres as well, do speak on some volume.

And like you said, most folks don't even know what to do with a keyboard and mouse setup. Thus, by your own claim, most folks don't even have real comparative and, well, useful opinions on which is better, mouse or gamepad. That automatically rules out most of your Xbox Halo/Doom III sample when it comes to using preference to determine fact. Or even the ability to claim that there is a majority preference.

The only perferences that I would consider of real worth in determining whether the gamepad or mouse is truly more effective in FPS's are from:

1. Those who are truly FPS enthusiasts, and care to play at a high level of performance, not just those who play casually and are happy enough to "get by", or rely on auto-aim to service them.

2. Those who have spent a decent amount of time with both control schemes to really be able to make a valid and unbiased comparison.

An overwhelming number of XBox Doom III and Halo players do not form this body.

If you want to determine a tool's effectiveness for a job, you ask those with marked experience and interest in doing the job well, and those who have been doing the job for a period of time.

Just because most folks use Photoshop with mouse and pad, and some of us can do amazing mouse work and it's more than good enough for us... doesn't mean that a digital tablet and pen isn't still a better solution. If you ask the "elite minority" that have and use them-- that have tried both solutions-- real digital artists... it is, hands down. The rest just don't have the means or desire to form an opinion on either. And it isn't elitism for them to offer opinions or truths regarding things that the overwhelming majority haven't spent all that much time thinking about.

-Al

Edited July 27, 2004 by Sundown