Doom 3 system requirements

[Sundown]

If you're a sniper, play long enough with a controler and you'll adjust, just watch some those guys who spend too much time on SOCOM.

I've played FPS on both PS2 and PCs, to be honest, the key board and mouse just piss me off. You can rotate just as fast with a stick as you can with a mouse, all you need to do is jack up the sensetivity.

That merely means that certain players have adapted themselves to be vaguely proficient with a gamepad. But I still offer that they're no match for the speed some CS players are capable of achieving headshots with a mouse. If SOCOM was playable with a mouse (I would think it'd be), the good mouse players would have a field day. And if this isn't the case, I'm half betting there just aren't enough mouse owners that are also at the top of the game.

You can rotate as fast as a mouse if you crank up the sensitivity. But you can't rotate as fast, and then settle extremely quickly into a precise snapshot on a small target as fast as one. Cranking up the sensitivity with a joypad hoses your accuracy much more than doing the same does with a mouse. I can set my mouse up with the perfect sensitivity that allows me to both spin 180 with a mere flick of a wrist, and still be able to take extremely quick and precise snapshots at several pixel sized targets in successive order. And hit. That's a tall order with a gamepad.

-Al

Edited July 23, 2004 by Sundown

[Druna Skass]

Well maybe I never found a need for pin point accuracy since my favorite gun has always been a machine gun.

[wakobi]

Yeah, we're still on the topic of the merits of Doom 3 on the PC versus Doom 3 on the Xbox

Another versus thread? Great.

And there's me thinking this thread was just put up to discuss the PC requirements needed to play DOOM 3 on a computer rig... Ah well...

[Druna Skass]

I can set my mouse up with the perfect sensitivity that allows me to both spin 180 with a mere flick of a wrist, and still be able to take extremely quick and precise snapshots at several pixel sized targets in successive order. And hit. That's a tall order with a gamepad.

-Al

Actualy I've been able to pull that off on MOH Rising Sun in a free-for-all room online. Though I don't know if you'd consider it the same thing since I shot three round bursts with a BAR.

[Max Jenius]

Yeah, we're still on the topic of the merits of Doom 3 on the PC versus Doom 3 on the Xbox

Another versus thread? Great.

And there's me thinking this thread was just put up to discuss the PC requirements needed to play DOOM 3 on a computer rig... Ah well...

Well its proven entertaining to say the least.

Its more an issue of pointing devices(interesting that that's the general term) versus gamepads.

Oh yeah... on another note, there's no doubt in my mind that Doom will look wonderful on the X-Box.. I'd prefer the framerate to be 100+, but 60 - 75 constant is still passable. I like framerate over visual quality, though I still expect a certain amount of atmosphere.

[CoryHolmes]

I still expect a certain amount of atmosphere.

Given all the trailers and all the hype, I expect a whole boatload of atmosphere, or I'll be sorely dissapointed in being misled like that.

[VF-2SS-BloodPhoenix]

Yeah, we're still on the topic of the merits of Doom 3 on the PC versus Doom 3 on the Xbox

Another versus thread? Great.

And there's me thinking this thread was just put up to discuss the PC requirements needed to play DOOM 3 on a computer rig... Ah well...

Hence my "Nevermind" deleted comment, though I never tried to start an argument, just give a reason why I like PC more even though I am old skool, can ya dig it? I KNEW this (argument) was going to happen so I held back. Both PC and consoles have +s and -s, nothing's perfect. No need to wage a war over it. Just relax and enjoy what you like.

[Max Jenius]

Yeah, we're still on the topic of the merits of Doom 3 on the PC versus Doom 3 on the Xbox

Another versus thread? Great.

And there's me thinking this thread was just put up to discuss the PC requirements needed to play DOOM 3 on a computer rig... Ah well...

Hence my "Nevermind" deleted comment, though I never tried to start an argument, just give a reason why I like PC more even though I am old skool, can ya dig it? I KNEW this (argument) was going to happen so I held back. Both PC and consoles have +s and -s, nothing's perfect. No need to wage a war over it. Just relax and enjoy what you like.

Damn skippy. That's why I play own consoles and PCs... I'm a straight up gamer.

[mikeszekely]

The reason PC owners scoff at console Halo being held up and offered as the epitome of FPS gaming goodness is because the only real way to enjoy an FPS fully is with use of a mouse. It's just night and day... and PC players simply can't imagine putting up with the cumbersome joypads for smooth, precise, and immersive targetting. They've just been spoiled. And if multiplayer is one's thing, there's nothing that comes remotely close to what the PC offers in terms of connectivity and competition.

Okay, this is actually the most elitist PC argument ever. "You just CAN'T play a FPS without a mouse!" Hey, look, my four year old niece plays Dora the Explorer point-and-click games... and with a mouse, let's be honest, you're just pointing and clicking.

And believe it or not, there's a whole group of gamers who learned to play FPS with Goldeneye. They're got ridiculous talent for aiming their crosshairs as well as any PC gamer, only they do it with a pair of analog sticks. I wish I was as good as them, but I'm with them on one thing... I feel more comfortable with an Xbox controller in my hand than a mouse and a keyboard.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Video game peripherals are just as diverse as real world combatants. Some folks prefer handguns, some prefer SMGs, some prefer knives and heck some even strap TNT to themselves and run at you. For as many different ways there are to play there are as many people to play them that way. I still do a double take when I see those guys with the keyboard joysticks and even the old school Power Glove.

I figure if you can play a game by sheer will of the mind you will have a one-up on me and my mouse/keyboard.

As for the PC vs. Console argument I think the only thing the PC has going is more power and better looks but it comes at a higher price tag. Like I said earlier, some guys like me will pay extra just to have more power.

[Max Jenius]

its not console vs pc

its been established that for the same titles, PCs just have the horsepower to put out a better quality product, however this is mainly in visuals... but... like I said graphics are important because they help with immersion.

The "Vs" thing is Joypad vs KB + Mouse/Trackball for first person shooters specifically. No other genre. Its common knowledge that different systems and pcs all have different strengths etc...

PCs will always be graphically superior to any console 6 mos after the console's release(if not prior), at least if history is any indication.

I know peopel that learned to play fps games on Goldeneye, and while they struggled at first with the mouse... they adapted. Not only am I president, I'm also a member of that crew. I went from joypad - > kb only - > kb + mouse move -> finally mlook....

Oh, and my challenge is still open. Also, for those of you interested in other opinions... don't hesitate to check the PA link.

Anyone ever hear the terms "flicking" and "tracking?" Those are a lot harder to do with lookspring... and I guess a person at PA said that many console fps games have autoaim enabled to make up for the deficiency... but I don't know anything about that. I always disable it if possible (cept in vanilla doom, but who plays that now that jDoom is around?)

[Sundown]

Okay, this is actually the most elitist PC argument ever.  "You just CAN'T play a FPS without a mouse!"

Read the post(s) again. While I exaggerated slightly for emphasis (note itallics on the word *fully*), I clarified my reasoning a few posts down. FPS's are playable with a gamepad. Especially if auto-aim is built into the game to compensate for the gamepad's innaccuracy. Playable. Yes. Again. Playable. Did I mention playable? Even moderately enjoyable.

The mouse just works better. It's an objective observation borne from experience, agreed upon by many gamers who don't have some sort of pro-platform agenda. Not sure how you can read that as being "elitist", unless presenting what one perceives as true somehow marks one as "elitist". I own both a console and a PC, and I will begrudgingly admit any and all advantages a console has... which is why I own one in the first place.

Hey, look, my four year old niece plays Dora the Explorer point-and-click games... and with a mouse, let's be honest, you're just pointing and clicking.

No argument there. That just goes to show that the mouse is a much better pointing device. If a four year old can point and click with relative accuracy and speed, it's doing something right. If you really hate your niece, take her mouse away and force her to play Dora with a gamepad. I'm not delusional enough to think I'm more personally skilled than a pad user for being able to target much quicker. I'm also not delusional enough to choose a pad just so I can pride myself in struggling with and overcoming a somewhat cumbersome control device when I needn't, when better and more natural options are available.

And believe it or not, there's a whole group of gamers who learned to play FPS with Goldeneye.

Again, pads are usable. Hell, even keyboards are usable. But my money's on the mouse user when it comes to direct comparisons. So far, all you've offered is that console FPS's are playable with gamepads. No one is arguing that. You're also posing that certain folks can be *extremely* good with the joypad (despite its inherent innacuracy and akwardness when it comes to targetting in an FPS). No one's arguing that either.

You, however, haven't shown that a pad can perform as well as a mouse in every instance-- that the average gamepad user is as accurate as the average mouse user-- nor have you shown that the best gamepad user can compete with the best mouse user. For most who are comfortable with both devices and do not have any inherent biases... who are willing to use a pad if that's all they've got... most will agree that the mouse beats the gamepad for fast and natural targetting hands down.

They're got ridiculous talent for aiming their crosshairs as well as any PC gamer, only they do it with a pair of analog sticks. I wish I was as good as them, but I'm with them on one thing... I feel more comfortable with an Xbox controller in my hand than a mouse and a keyboard.

I think it also says something when mouse users don't need to point to a specific group of gamers who have become uncannily good with one in order to prove that the control device is viable. The mouse is simply that good and that easy to use for FPSs, as long as a modicum of hand-eye coordination is possessed.

-Al

Edited July 24, 2004 by Sundown

[Sundown]

Video game peripherals are just as diverse as real world combatants. Some folks prefer handguns, some prefer SMGs, some prefer knives and heck some even strap TNT to themselves and run at you. For as many different ways there are to play there are as many people to play them that way. I still do a double take when I see those guys with the keyboard joysticks and even the old school Power Glove.

Yep. Except certain tools *are* better for certain situations. Knives don't fare as well in a gun fight. SMG's are poor choices at long ranges when pit against assault and battle rifles. And a sniper rifle isn't something you want to bring along for doing any sort of CQB.

-Al

[Daishi3500]

Man, computers perpetuate into a firey, cash-deprived hell. I'm giving up on all these upgrades. I cancelled my HL2 from ebgames yesterday, partially out of impatience, but also because of the fear of my gateway not being able to handle it. Sure, Doom and half-life make me sh:t my pants from their gorgeous visuals. But the case is I don't have as much money as I do sh:t, so I'm just going to get the Operation Flashpoint GOTY, something I just now dicoverd last week.

[Ladic]

Someone remindi, in case I forgot, when I played Wolfstain 3D, 10 or so years ago, to movie foward you couldn't do it with the arrows in the keyboard, but rather you had to drag the mouse from top to bottom and arrows only work to turn. Am I remember correctly? this was the first time I play a FPS and was really hard.

But now, I really prefer Mouse over Gamepad for FPS.

[Radd]

Next up, ladies and gentlemen, mouse versus Wacom tablet, are artists just being elitist when they say that Wacom's are better for drawing on computers?

[Max Jenius]

Next up, ladies and gentlemen, mouse versus Wacom tablet, are artists just being elitist when they say that Wacom's are better for drawing on computers?

GOLD!

So we've learned a lot these past couple days.

hahaha

oh man....

You guys should check out the PA thread too... neat post about a Keyboard only player that kicked butt.

[Sundown]

Someone remindi, in case I forgot, when I played Wolfstain 3D, 10 or so years ago, to movie foward you couldn't do it with the arrows in the keyboard, but rather you had to drag the mouse from top to bottom and arrows only work to turn. Am I remember correctly? this was the first time I play a FPS and was really hard.

But now, I really prefer Mouse over Gamepad for FPS.

Yeah. I think the default control scheme for Doom was funky, too. Something like holding the right mouse button down to move forward. Control schemes like that chilled me to even trying to use the mouse for years, until I encountered Dark Forces, which was the first FPS I tried using the mouse again for, and which had the much more useable WASD mapping.

It's funny that back then, folks were actually having arguments over whether the *keyboard* was as good as the mouse for FPS's. Some of their points sound the same as those who profess that the gamepad's just as good as the mouse. No one has those arguments anymore.

-Al

[Max Jenius]

No one has those arguments anymore.

Yeah, its kinda like if people went around still saying that the world is flat.

[mikeszekely]

You, however, haven't shown that a pad can perform as well as a mouse in every instance-- that the average gamepad user is as accurate as the average mouse user-- nor have you shown that the best gamepad user can compete with the best mouse user. For most who are comfortable with both devices and do not have any inherent biases... who are willing to use a pad if that's all they've got... most will agree that the mouse beats the gamepad for fast and natural targetting hands down.

They're got ridiculous talent for aiming their crosshairs as well as any PC gamer, only they do it with a pair of analog sticks. I wish I was as good as them, but I'm with them on one thing... I feel more comfortable with an Xbox controller in my hand than a mouse and a keyboard.

I think it also says something when mouse users don't need to point to a specific group of gamers who have become uncannily good with one in order to prove that the control device is viable. The mouse is simply that good and that easy to use for FPSs, as long as a modicum of hand-eye coordination is possessed.

-Al

You're right, I haven't proven any of those things... but you haven't disproven them either. For all we know, the best gamepad user might destroy the best mouse user. Fact is, we don't know.

Mouse users didn't need to point to a specific group to validate their belief that their control device is viable... but joypad users don't either. Sales for games like Halo, and the fact that I can pretty much promise that the Xbox version of Doom 3 will outsell the PC version. All mentioning it does say is that, for some odd reason, PC gamers don't get that there are a lot of people who prefer to play their FPS on consoles and with joypads.

And Max, it's not a challenge to to get someone to refute your arguments when you're using the PA forums as your source of support, because it's really not an accurate sampling of the real world. Most forum goers are more PC inclined. That's just a fact of life. Asking the people at PA whether they prefer FPS on PC or console is like going to the Democratic National Convention and asking whether they prefer Kerry or Bush.

And that's actually where the whole elitist thing comes into play. The only reason why I feel like arguing is because, while I play both PC and console, I do prefer my FPS on Xbox. This is a matter of my personal preference. I recognize that I that it's my personal preference, and that I'm actually most likely in the majority. It's a fact that console sales are the bulk of the market, after all. PC gamers DO NOT prefer a mouse and keyboard because a mouse and keyboard is definatively a better choice... it's just their personal preference. But whereas an average console gamer really doesn't have a problem with the idea that people play games on PCs, PC gamers seem to think that console gamers are nuts, and that the only "hardcore" gamers are PC gamers, and that a mouse and keyboard has been factually proven to be superior to a gamepad.

[Akilae]

Just to add some more fuel to this blazing camp fire, what do you guys think of inverting the y-axis? For some reason it's the only way I can play using a mouse, but it drives my friends crazy...

[Keiichi]

Invert mouse is the ONLY way to play . I feel your pain tho, all my friends don't understand how I can play inverted. It just makes more sense to me, like in real life, when you look up, you tilt your head back, so a mouse movement backwards should also tilt your view up! That, combined with years playing flight sims before ever playing a 3D FPS, just makes inverted so much more natural.

[Sundown]

You're right, I haven't proven any of those things... but you haven't disproven them either. For all we know, the best gamepad user might destroy the best mouse user. Fact is, we don't know.

True enough. I'm just arguing with conventional wisdom and personal observation, along with consensus within certain communities that have experience with both... but I find that extremely implausible (a good pad gamer beating a good mouse user), given longterm personal experience, and given what's commonly agreed upon by most gamers. But it could be settled somewhat by taking up Max's challenge.

Mouse users didn't need to point to a specific group to validate their belief that their control device is viable... but joypad users don't either.  Sales for games like Halo, and the fact that I can pretty much promise that the Xbox version of Doom 3 will outsell the PC version.  All mentioning it does say is that, for some odd reason, PC gamers don't get that there are a lot of people who prefer to play their FPS on consoles and with joypads.

Most dubious use of statistics and numbers ever. All sales of Xbox Halo and Doom 3 would prove is that there there were more copies of Xbox Halo and Doom 3 sold. It proves nothing about controller effectiveness. Why? Let's look at some possibilities, none of which you are considering in skewing sales figures to make tenuous claims:

1. Halo on the Xbox has been out over a year longer than Halo on the PC. Thus Halo Xbox naturally already has more sales. Plus, why would you buy PC Halo if you already owned the Xbox version?

2. PC FPS players are not scrabbling to pick up Halo, partly for reason 1, and partly because Halo really isn't all that special when compared against other PC FPS shooters, from which they have many, many more to choose. The PC FPS market dilutes sales for any one game by offering many viable games.

3. Halo isn't even the top selling FPS on the PC, on a platform that's traditionally known for excelling at the genre. Using its lukewarm reception as a measure of how effective the mouse is against the gamepad isn't particularly convincing.

A more accurate indicator would be all FPS's sold on PC's versus all FPS's sold on a console. You might say that's hardly a fair comparison, since Halo and Goldeneye are the only good FPS's consoles have had available to them. I'd say you're right. And then I'd offer that FPS's are few and far between on consoles for a good reason.

4. Doom 3 will have likely have auto-aim assist for gamepad users. This alone makes a comparision largely invalid. Even if one can have as much fun with Xbox Doom 3, and even if Xbox players can do the same things a mousing player can with the same degree of effectiveness-- the addition of auto-aim alone wipes out any comparison that can be made. The feature's existence on the Xbox version of those games, and its absense on the PC versions is telling, however.

Apparently the developers thought the feature necessary to compensate some shortcoming or other.

5. Mice are available for the Xbox. Not all Xbox Halo and Doom 3 sales tally one in the "prefer gamepad" column. Few play Halo or will play Doom 3 with a gamepad on the PC, however.

6. Platform selection speaks much more about preferences in other areas: convience, display clarity, display size, portability, availability of disposable income, brand loyalty, *other* games and genre one also wants to play... than it does about controller selection for FPS games. The last would probably be the weakest reason for picking one or the other.

7. You've said yourself that the PC version of Halo is sub-par. I myself would have issues picking between the two, if I owned an Xbox.

Sales figures do not indicate controller preference in an FPS in any compelling way. There are just too many other more important factors involved in choosing which platform one prefers to play on.

And that's actually where the whole elitist thing comes into play.  The only reason why I feel like arguing is because, while I play both PC and console, I do prefer my FPS on Xbox.  This is a matter of my personal preference.  I recognize that I that it's my personal preference, and that I'm actually most likely in the majority.

It can be argued that assuming one's preferences are the majorities is a form of elitism. That's exactly what you've just accused us of. Furthermore, a choice to play the same game on the Xbox over the PC involves more than control device choice.

Just because one can have a personal choice and one picks based on their preference does not mean there aren't inherent advantages with a certain device. It's not "elitism" to offer that certain devices are better suited for certain situations and performing certain actions, nor is it "elitism" to describe exactly why. Blindly spouting that it's "merely personal perference" and ignoring any of the specific points brought up on why a certain device excels, or why another device falls short doesn't advance the discussion further.

It does allow one to throw around names in an attempt to color those that one disagrees with in some politically incorrect, "elitist" light. But hell, having a belief, and daring to offer that some things might be more true than others is politically incorrect to begin with.

It's a fact that console sales are the bulk of the market, after all.  PC gamers DO NOT prefer a mouse and keyboard because a mouse and keyboard is definatively a better choice... it's just their personal preference.

Your claim that PC gamers choosing to use a mouse does not in any way indicate device effectiveness is even less provable than whether either device is superior to the other. The existence of personal perference doesn't preclude the existence of a better choice... but unless I'm reading wrong, that seems to be the weight of your argument.

To that, I'd offer that mouse users prefer the mouse because it grants quick, accurate, immersive, and intuitive targetting-- easy enough to be used effectively by a four year old, as you've pointed out.

And that gamepad FPS players prefer the gamepad because they can't get used to the strangeness of the mouse and keyboard combination, that it just doesn't "feel right" to be playing on devices that weren't created for playing games, and their unwillingness to use a mouse has allowed them enough time to practice to be moderately decent with a pad.

But their proficiency doesn't exclude one device as being more effective than the other for most people by and large. Nor does their preference imply that a better solution doesn't exist. Chalking up all choices as being relative "preferences" that have no basis in objectivity and have no relation to real, general human physiology doesn't get us very far in searching for a better controller device. My reasons on why a mouse is more effective stands.

But whereas an average console gamer really doesn't have a problem with the idea that people play games on PCs, PC gamers seem to think that console gamers are nuts, and that the only "hardcore" gamers are PC gamers, and that a mouse and keyboard has been factually proven to be superior to a gamepad.

Straw Man. I own both and will play whichever platform offers the better experience for a particular game or genre. That's more akin to a hardcore gamer's line of thinking.

-Al

[Sundown]

Invert mouse is the ONLY way to play . I feel your pain tho, all my friends don't understand how I can play inverted. It just makes more sense to me, like in real life, when you look up, you tilt your head back, so a mouse movement backwards should also tilt your view up! That, combined with years playing flight sims before ever playing a 3D FPS, just makes inverted so much more natural.

I used to feel the same about inverting the axis... until I just got over the fact that I don't "fly" my head in an FPS anymore than I "fly" my head in real life. I just think of clicking my target like I would in Windows.

Add to that that the movement of my upper arm more closely corresponds to the movement of my arm in real life when holding a firearm and moving its point of aim up with a non-inverted Y-axis than it does with an inverted one.

Inverting feels perfectly natural in a game where I *am* supposedly controlling a ship or craft with the mouse, however. Weird.

-Al

[Max Jenius]

I invert just out of habit. I can play decent when I forget that it isn't inverted... but inverted is better for me... but for me its like flying. For others, they like up to be up, it doesn't really matter to me.

Oh... and Sundown put it beautifully. So ummm. . . I really don't have anything to say. Oh... and PA is made up of people that play both PC and Console games... if not MORE OF A CONSOLE ORIENTED SITE... So you know... whatever... I frequent those forums and I think they are a pretty balanced, non-biased group with experience in both fields. If you think PA is geared towards primarily PC gamers, then you're dead wrong. You and Tepfren keep making these leaps... like... just because PA Forums are required to be accessed by a PC doesn't mean that the person is a PC or Console gamer.

Sundown does have this covered pretty well though, so you know I've got a big grin on my face and nothin really more to say... except;

QUOTE 

But whereas an average console gamer really doesn't have a problem with the idea that people play games on PCs, PC gamers seem to think that console gamers are nuts, and that the only "hardcore" gamers are PC gamers, and that a mouse and keyboard has been factually proven to be superior to a gamepad.

Straw Man. I own both and will play whichever platform offers the better experience for a particular game or genre. That's more akin to a hardcore gamer's line of thinking.

Yeah.... I'm getting sick of that too. I'd like to see some stats... and these alleged mean PC gamers...

[Druna Skass]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

[Radd]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

But where does opinion end and fact begin? You could be of the opinion that Matt Groening is a better at drawing than Leonardo DaVinci. You could be of the opinion that SDF Macross is better animation than DYRL?. I would argue that the facts of the matter are quite the opposite.

[Max Jenius]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

But where does opinion end and fact begin? You could be of the opinion that Matt Groening is a better at drawing than Leonardo DaVinci. You could be of the opinion that SDF Macross is better animation than DYRL?. I would argue that the facts of the matter are quite the opposite.

I was gonna post that, but I was gettin kinda tired of people making idiotic leaps in their lines of logic.

Sundown drove the point home quite nicely....to the point where the opposition has to resort to the last bastion "opinion" argument.

Its a pity though, I was hoping to see more people post like the guy with the story about the KB player w/ his lookbinds.

[Hiriyu]

I don't think the CPU clockspeed is that important once you are pass maybe 1.8-2.0 Ghz. Its probably the memory and graphics card that matters.

I think the Geforce4 MX sucks. I bought a ShuttleX Sn42 with the embedded GF4 MX and 512 shared RAM. Can't play IL2 with more then 24 B-17s without the system running out of virtual ram.

Anyone recommend a good card to go with the ShuttleX SN42? I think the longer cards won't fit into the SSF casing.

Are you playing the orginal IL-2, or FB/Aces? The MX is well known to be a rather "sucky" video solution. Both play very well on my current box, and even played well with my old FX5200. However, I don't know of anyone who can play with 16+ B17s without a little bit of lagginess.

I didn't look up the specs on your mobo, but if you have an AGP port you should have no problem running any AGP card, provided that your PCI slots aren't loaded up and crowding it physically - unless your board/case are one of those ridiculous sub-micro jobs.

My specs:

P4 2.66 (Non-HT) / 533fsb

1 Gig PC2700

Radeon 9800 Pro 128

SBPCI 128 4.1

19" Flat Screen CRT

[mikeszekely]

I think there's one thing we're all forgetting with this controler vs mouse&keyboard debate...

Opinion does not equal Fact...

With that said...

[Cartman voice] Screw you guys I'm going home [/Cartman voice]

But where does opinion end and fact begin? You could be of the opinion that Matt Groening is a better at drawing than Leonardo DaVinci. You could be of the opinion that SDF Macross is better animation than DYRL?. I would argue that the facts of the matter are quite the opposite.

Except that, aside from you, Sundown, and Max, no one has strongly argued that the mouse and keyboard is definatively better than a gamepad. And I haven't even been arguing that the gamepad is better... just that PC gamers seem unwilling to accpet that their choice is an opinion based on a matter of personal preference, and continue to work with the assumption that they are in fact working with the best equipment.

When does opinion become fact? It can never actually become fact... anyone who says that he thinks Groening is a better artist than DaVinci is actually entitled to that belief. The closest thing an opinion can become to fact is when it is excepted by an overwhelming majority... which goes back to the point that I was trying to make earlier that Sundown seemed to miss when I said that the Xbox version of Doom 3 will outsell the PC version. It is true that my point said nothing about controller effectivness... I'm not trying to claim one is better than the other, nor was I claiming that sales figures decide that one is better than the other. My point about sales figures is that PC gamers have become the vast minority. Most gamers out there will buy Doom for the Xbox, because that's what they use for their games. Most gamers out there will use the gamepad, because that's what they're used to (and no, there is NOT a mouse for the Xbox- at least, not one sold outside of internet stores like Lik Sang). The majority of gamers, given a mouse and keyboard setup, wouldn't even know what to do with it. Sundown is right to say that says nothing about which is truly the better setup, but what I'm saying is that mouse and keyboard PC gamers are the minority, and yet they're convinced that the majority is wrong, and that their mouse and keyboard preference should be taken as factual evidence of the gamepad's inferiority.

Hence, the stereotype (I'll admit that it's a stereotype, since most of the PC gamers I know don't fit the bill) that PC gamers are elitists. And hence, why people like Druna are leaving the thread. Any argument against the mouse and keyboard as factually superior is taken as a personal insult, and automatic siding with the gamepad, and a comment of profound stupidity by a few people who are normally very rational, intelligent people in other threads that just can't get over the fact that their opinion is nothing more than their personal preference, and the preferences of the minority. (Truthfully, gamers who prefer the gamepad are a minority as well... the majority actually wouldn't have a preference, having possibly recognized that there are people who play games on PCs, but have never actually considered playing with one themselves.)

[Wes]

I have an honest question.

I've been turned off by the mouse-keyboard combination - it has never been inate to me. So I havent been into FPS since Goldeneye, which I've lost all of 2 games at back in the day. What control options are there? I've been considering the USB-GameCube controller deal, but I've been really good at joysticks, I was wondering if a Sidewinder-deal, or just something with a stick is out there. Any recomendations.

Also Max, I haven't been able to get into PA for over a week. Can you; is it just me?

[Dendrobius]

Actually, guys, there was a game where the console gamers could go head to head against PC gamers online.

Quake 3. On PC and Dreamcast. It was a while back, but it did happen.

And DEAR GOD, did the Dreamcast players get owned. A half decent PC player (keyboard and mouse) could literally take on something like four DC (gamepad) users and win with ease.

A quick review I dug up as well points to the same thing

Dreamcast Quake 3 review

So yeah. That pretty much settles the argument IMHO.

[mikeszekely]

Actually, guys, there was a game where the console gamers could go head to head against PC gamers online.

Quake 3. On PC and Dreamcast. It was a while back, but it did happen.

And DEAR GOD, did the Dreamcast players get owned. A half decent PC player (keyboard and mouse) could literally take on something like four DC (gamepad) users and win with ease.

A quick review I dug up as well points to the same thing

Dreamcast Quake 3 review

So yeah. That pretty much settles the argument IMHO.

Except that it still doesn't. I might be generalizing here, but PC FPS players tend to play their games A LOT. I know guys who still play Tribes religiously, and that game is how old now?

On the flip side, I imagine that a lot of the DC Quake guys were like me and my two buddies... sure, we'd go online and play every now and then... but we spent a lot more time playing Sonic Adventure, Daytona USA, Samba de Amigo, Seaman, Soul Calibur, DoA 2, etc. The online thing was pretty much a novelty for the DC.

Well, someone who golfs five or six times a week is going to be alot better than the guy who goes maybe five or six times a year. Same deal here.

And, unlike the Xbox, there was definately an official mouse and keyboard for the DC. My best friend had one.

[Dendrobius]

Fair enough if you want to say that about the skill level difference.

Yes, you are right, there is a kb/mouse peripheral for the DC. Guess what? In the review I posted up, the reviewer had it too. This is what he had to say about gamepad vs. keyboard/mouse

This game is not at its best with a standard Dreamcast controller. You need a mouse and keyboard. This is, much like when you were born into this world, a non-negotiable fact of existence in the Quake universe. I don't care how much it pains you to suck it up and get a clue about FPS gaming, but if you want to compete in this or any other title like it, you will want to go ahead and get your hands on the peripherals mentioned above.

He goes on to explain that because you cannot aim half as well with the controller as with the mouse, you won't hold your own against other DC kb/mouse users, let alone PC users.

Considering this guy's a console reviewer, we can assume safely that he should be pretty familiar with a gamepad, probably more so than the kb/mouse, and yet even he says that.

What say you?

[wolfx]

Might be old news....heard Doom 3 has gone gold and out next week.

And my computer can't handle it....noooooooooooooooooo