Obscure F-14 trivia

[Skull Leader]

In the ongoing series to commemorate the soon-to-be passing of our patron fighter jet, I thought I'd start a little "did you know..." page for the F-14. If you have something to add, feel free to do so! (Dave, I hope to see many things from you here! )

About "Top Gun"

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In the movie "Top Gun", by simple use of the Codex numbers "Goose" and "Cougar" use over the radio, it's pretty easy to figure out which squadron each is from. Given that the beginning of the movie takes place on the Enterprise (CVN-65) and during "current day" (then the mid 1980s) we can speculate the following:

"Goose" called in their plane as "Ghostrider 203"... while one would assume obviously he is from the "Ghostriders" squadron, this is not the case (squadrons do not always use their name for their radio handles... case in point, the Jolly Rogers use "Victory #") the codex 203 would correspond to an aircraft in the VF-213 "Black Lions" squadron. So it is safe to assume that "Maverick" and "Goose" were, in fact, pilots from the Black Lions.

"Cougar" radioed in their plane as "Ghostrider 117". The codex 117 corresponds to an aircraft in the VF-114 "Fighting Aardvarks". In fact, with possibly only 1 or 2 exceptions, all F-14 missile shots filmed were from VF-114 tomcats.

Most of the carrier launch sequences were filmed on the Enterprise and if you look closely in one or two launch sequences, you can see the tailcode "NH" on most of the Tomcats, and you can even see the tiny aardvark in one. However, some footage was taken from the USS Ranger, because the VF-1 "Wolfpack" gets some screentime on the carrier as well as at Miramar. Strangely enough, "Goose"s helmet also depicts "VF-1" on it... but that's it.

I could be mistaken about the squadron, but I believe some tomcats from the VF-74 "Bedevilers" were re-painted with fictitious unit markings for the filming at the NFWS. These markings were shared on the helmets and patches of "Iceman", "Slider", "Hollywood", and "Wolfman" which naturally leads me to believe the 4 of them were from the same fake squadron (the patch and helmet featured a fist holding a lightning bolt). "Maverick" and "Goose" also bore fake unit patches on their uniform (perhaps a variant on the "screaming eagles" or something, featuring a stylized bird of prey attacking). Real Squadrons were represented there though... Mav's replacement-RIO after Goose's death was from the VF-111 "Sundowners" and somebody SOMEWHERE (don't remember who without going back to watch) has a VF-103 "Sluggers" patch on. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "Jester" have a patch from the VX-9 "Vampires"?

Edited July 14, 2004 by Skull Leader

[trueblueeyes]

I don't have any trivia to add, but I do have a question. I am in the process of modeling an F-14 parked with gear down and canopy open. But I am at a loss to model the afterburners. Now, I've always *ass*umed the afterburners would be closed when the jet is shut off. But I noticed that the 'cat on display at my airshow had one afterburner open and one closed when it was parked out on the field. Someone please enlighten me. I'd like to get my model as accurate as possible! Closed? Open? One open, one closed?? Help!

..me no spel gud!

Edited July 14, 2004 by trueblueeyes

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

when nozzles are in full afterburner they are fully open., When still in dry military thrust at highest before burner, they are at "close" or minimal open space. slower speed means wider nozzle once more. Weird yes.

When parked sometimes nozzles are one open one narrow, engine thrust is used asymetrically to turn on the ground.

1-ASF-14...teh most obscure design but I think I did in fact see a scan of this plane one day. It looked radically diffeerent and had a delta like front fusesalage.

2-Tomcats were in executive decision

3-THe grandaddy of them all of the joe line, the skystriker, was based on the F-14.

4-After the tomcat we havbe the superhornet, perhaps the plane that replaced the super hornet will be the true successor of the tomcat.

5-I like tomcats. At present I am a fierce advocate and have annoyed the hell out of folks on a gijoe board(not intended LOL) about a skystriker issue and how it could be retrofitted with POM to pass the required 8 foot drop test.

6-my alternator skyfire is an F-14B based design.

7-F-14C would have kicked ass...think 70s A-6 mated with F-14A with new engines.

8-Iran is rumored to have given F-14s to russia to retrofit with flanker engines, and glass cockpit, so far none of this has ever been confirmed.

9Contrary to popular belief the tomcat actually can dogfight, in fact better than the phan tom and was meant to dogfight to begin with, just not as nimble as a falcon and the larter teen fighters(I mean come on guys it WAS the first teen fighter after all and coincidentally the most powerful in A2A)

10-The A-4 mentioned in topgun though was meant to simulate enemy migs is nowhere near as fast as the tomcat(although jester in the movie said it simuilated migs and was indeed faster).

11-Had the navy not kept bandaiding the tomcat in the mid 80s we could hav had F-14D's and B's a lot earlier.

12-The F-14 can in fact do high AOA(alpha) manuevers but it bleeds speed more so than the hornet.

13-An iranian pilot claimed to have had scored a phoenix kill with a target less than 10 miles away. Suffice to say that must have been a huge impact. He siad the plane was knocked in 2 and blew up/

14-Super Tomcat 21 would have had ATF capabilities aside from being non stealth. Thrust vectoring was talked about until theyn realized at grumman it could go 77 AOA and I blieve MAINTAIN it as well! in a turn or something.

15-Up until now no A2A missle can match the phoenix.

16-high viz was wonderful on the tomcat. Hornet?FORGET IT

17-F-14 was the first teen fightet to incorporate TCS and IRST. TCS was especially useful with sparrow kills.

18-surprisingly enough all US kills were CLOSERANGE and during dogfights!

19-It's achilless heel overall was the TF30 p414 engine(412) and PRICE.

20-pilots were court martialed and wings taken away for antics a lot less worse than that shown in topgun.

21-contrary to fan and popular belief of the general populace, only an idiot would pop the breaks and let the dude fly right by.

IO will add more later once i think of stuff

14-

[David Hingtgen]

trueblueeyes---normal F-14A engine position when shutdown is one open, one closed. Which one does what? It varies, despite many people's claims that it's one way or the other. I see both ways about equally. Also see them both open fairly often. Rarely see both closed. (They are supposed to be different, if they're both in the same position, someone wasn't following procedure) If you really want me to say the "most normal/correct/common" way, I vote for right open, left closed.

F-14B/D's leave them both open.

Shin---full burner doesn't necessairly mean fully open. Nozzle position is above all, dependent upon pressure ratio. Depends how fast the exhaust is, how fast the plane is moving, and how dense the air is. Go look at say an F-15 engine being tested---it'll be at FULL power with a 50 foot long flame, but the nozzle will be mostly closed because it's not moving. The nozzle's function is to equalize the pressure of the exhaust with the outside air--and the speed of the plane will affect that. You'll often see "open" on an F-14 taking off, but not FULLY open, which'll only happen at very high speeds and altitudes.

Skull Leader--I'm not following your 203/117 discussion at all. Navy planes AFAIK give their modex over the radio. "Victory 103" would be the Jolly Roger's #103 plane, the showbird. Etc. I don't get where you get the Black Knights and Aardvarks from the numbers.

Topgun stuff:

Most of the planes filmed for flying around were from VF-51, including Maverick's. However, Iceman's was from VF-111. (VF-51 and 111 are sister squadrons, and were "available" at the time)

Maverick's plane (and jacket) were actually marked up as VAW-110, an E-2C squadron. Picked simply because the director liked the logo.

Iceman's was marked up as VFA-25, which is my favorite HORNET squadron.

Of course, since VF-111 has the all-time coolest squadron markings ever (sorry, Jolly Rogers are #2 IMHO) they really shouldn't have repainted the plane. Yes, VFA-25's pretty cool, but to paint over the Sundowners markings... Maybe they didn't want Val Kilmer to have the cooler plane.

Misc F-14 stuff:

F-14B/D's are operationally limited to Mach 1.88 in peacetime, due to having so much thrust it can't maintain yaw control if one failed at Mach 2+. The true top speed is still unknown/classified, but likely around Mach 2.5

F-14A's are limited to about 2.2 for the above reason, Max speed is 2.41

F-14 fired its gun in anger for the first time in 2003, doing CAS!

F-14's don't move ANY part of the wing at all for control when the wings are swept back. Everything is done with the tail--roll/yaw/pitch.

An F-14's wing center-section is INCREDIBLY strong. They have been removed intact from otherwise smoking craters that crashed F-14's leave behind. You might find 100,000 little bits of metal, and 1 perfectly fine wing center-section with the pivots to attach the outer wings still attached. Electron-welded titanium.

The most extreme/impressive move an F-14 can do is the bat turn. Start out at high subsonic speed with the wings swept back, and simultaneously hit full afterburner and command over-ride the wings to full forward, while rolling 90 degrees, and pull back on the stick HARD. Basically a right-angle turn, faster than even an F-18 or F-16 can do. Will suck up an incredible amount of energy (like a Cobra), but will result in one incredible turn. You pretty much trade a LOT of kinetic energy for the ability to turn like that for about 1 second without falling out of the sky. The epitome of "instantaneous rate of turn".

The F-14 came very close to having 1 large v.stab and 2 large ventral fins. Was changed to 2 smaller v.stabs and 2 small ventral fins quite late, mainly on clearance issues. (Both ground and hanger deck height).

The F-14 was the first fighter to carry AMRAAM's, and much of the initial AMRAAM flight testing was with F-14's from Pt Mugu. F-14's were supposed to be the first plane to get them, to make them nigh-invincible in BVR, as they would have had Phoenixes, AMRAAM's, and Sparrows, combined with the most powerful radar flying.

F-14 #1 crashed on its second flight after all the hydraulics failed.

F-14 #6 shot itself down with a Sparrow. (missile pitched up sharply IMMEDIATELY after launch)

Edited July 14, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

THe tomcat is way better than the missleer that the navy originally wanted. the less said the better.

As david pointed out a long time ago there is a black box on Top of the RIO's ocontrol panel on the F-14D. noone knows what the hell this is for.

THe F-14 was the first naval plane after the phantom to be able to turna nd burn with the best of them(phantom was not envisioned as a dogfighter where as tomcat was expected to intercept AND dogfight) and in the mock duel flown by chuck suel, the proto tomcat OWNed the F-4.

many coun tries wanted the F-14, most could not afford.

The Air force and ANG looked into buying it and chappy(forgot his last name) really pushed for it with new long range fuel tanks and the like but cost killed it.

F-15N was even envisioned as a cheaper replacement but drag with phoenix as well as carrier retrofitting and price killed his idea(not to mention tomcats better)

TF30 engines SUCK. no really they DO.

AS evidenced by Topgun(this part is actually true) the tomcat IS hard to land and perhaps the hardest of the current naval planes to land. (not as bad as others 50s era naval planes) but still its big and heavy slow it down and it wobbles weight working against it. Thats why they call it the turkey.

No US Tomcats were ever shot down in A2A engagements, only Iranian F-14s and even then their kill ratio seems to be a lot higher than anyone thinks. It turns out they pretty much scored a bunch of iraqi kills.

F-14 is only fighter in the NAVY that can do armed recon and NOT remove the internal gun!. TARPS also does not take up many weapon stations and does not add drag. Most F-14A's and ALL F-14D/D®'s are wired for TARPS.

F-14 is the only thing that could even come close to matching the A-6's bomb load and range(navy strike). ANd still not be a drag whore like the shornet.

Tomcat 21 would hgave kicked all kinds of ass and then navy wanted it but politics killed it.

[Skull Leader]

Sorry Dave, I should've specified more clearly.

During the mid-80s on the Enterprise, the Black Lions squadron operated with the 200 range modex, while the fighting Aardvarks operated in the 100 range modex. That was how I reached my conclusion.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

actually Dave, I gotta disagree man. I think the all time best colors for high viz go to the 70s era F-14 VF-1 Wolfpack squadron! now THOSE were awesome! I love the jollys and the downers but the wolfpack scheme never ceases to amaze me.

I wonder what will happen with the grim reapers. WIl they just retire and be replaced by a sh*tnet RAG? I also wonder how tomcat pilots forced to convert to the superbug feel as well. I want to see a bat turn in action I have seen it in boooks but it is only a stuill picture, I wonder what one in motion looks like. I imagine it could be pulling more inches than a flanker's cobra and since armnament is usually between the nacells, the move could be done even with semi full A2A armnament and bomb load.

Too bad in AC you cant mimic it at all. Perhaps in Aero Elite academy? then again in aerowings 2 airstrike you still cant do it either. F-14 will max out at 6.5g and will not go beyond in the tgame which sucks...id bat turn the hell out of the AI if i could do the manuever.

only the F-18 seems to be able to do rapid pitch up in that game.

hmm I wonder how a tomcat could fight a flanker 1v1

more trivia

-tomcat was in tpgun because it RULED. no hornets in that movie buddy NONE~!!!

-Tomcat is better than the hornet. This is very much true.

-unlike the super hornet, when loaded up the tomcat does not need to compensate much because it does gain a lot of drag and its just so awesome. it really has realultimatepower.net stamped on it.

-on one of the tv channels it showed a drogue refueling where the basket broke off and remained on the tomcats fueling probe!

-IRST can detect stealth aircraft ffrom FAR away. Bear in mind this was the only teen fighter to even mount IR sensors for A2A.

-tomcat is much more manueverable than people think.

-nowa question, David, if the Tomcat was armed with AMRAAM, how man¥ could it max out?

-in terms of swing wing nfighters, the tomcat is the most successful and in temrs of swing wing fighters in general, the least problematic.

[ewilen]

The most extreme/impressive move an F-14 can do is the bat turn.

I'm wondering--is there any video of a bat turn available either on the net or on VHS or DVD?

The F-14 came very close to having 1 large v.stab and 2 large ventral fins.

Are there any drawings or mockups that show what this would have looked like? Hm....okay, found a couple at M.A.T.S. E.g. http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14a-303b.htm and more generally http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-history-f14a.htm

[Knight26]

1) The reason why most A model tomcats have one engine nozzle opened and one closed is because of an emergency override built into the engine controls. Because the F-14s engines are so powerful issues with assytemtric thrust were a prime concern in case of engine out problems. That is beside the point, sorry inhaled too much paint dust today cleaning up a launcher. Basicaly when the first engine shuts down it opens all the way, since at lowest thrust the engine vains are typically opened to the full extent, like in afterburner, it all about pressures people like DH said. ANyway when the second engine shuts down the override kicks in and automatically constricts it in order to maximize what little thrust it might still be able to produce just from the engine left spinning. It was hoped that this little feature would allow tomcats that lost engine power to remain flyable just a little longer and allow the crews to make it to safe waters before ditching.

2) The reason why Tomcat patches have two tails on the tomcat is because the change to the twin tail configuration came late in development. Some tomcat patches were already produced for the rollout of the single tail, ventral finned mock up, which featured a single tail on the cat. When the configuration was changed the second tail was added to the patch, initially as a joke, but it stayed all this time.

3) VF-143 has the coolest squadron name in history lets here it for Mother's Favorite "Puk'n Dogs." THe PC revolution of the late 80s early 90s saw the Puk'n Dogs become just the dogs, as did it see the loss of the bunny marking from Vandy-1. However in I believe 2001 or 2002 a female Admiral ordered the Bunny painted back onto Vandy-1 and the VF-143 Dogs became the Puk'n Dogs once again. The place I used to work at, Aviation Challenge, had all the high school age squadrons named after F-14 squadrons for years, and I had the Puk'n Dogs most often, man I love my Barfing Bassetts, my hurling hounds, my upchucking Chihuhaus, my El Doggos Pukeos, my Mother's Favorite Puk'n Dogs.

(fixed, the squadron number, thanks DH, oh man how did I mess that up?)

4) During the filming of and after the filming of Top Gun, TOm Cruise was offered a ride in a tomcat's back seat so that he could actually get flight time and a 1 hour patch. He turned it down because he wouldn't get stick time. Years later when Interview with a Vampire was released in SOuth Korea he accepted a ride in a RSKAF F-16. Hmm, Tomcat king of the skies, or Viper pretender to the throne, hmm, which would you all have picked?

5) Back at Aviation Challenge when flying aggressor one thing would get a trainee shot down by an agressor faster then anything. That thing was ever quoting the Top Gun line, "I'll hit the brakes and he'll fly right by." I personally shot down six trainees for that infraction, quoting any top gun line ususally resulted in points off for the mission too, lol.

Edited July 14, 2004 by Knight26

[Knight26]

oops double post

Edited July 14, 2004 by Knight26

[Knight26]

Did a quick search on the Missileer that was mentioned a few posts back, and man when I found a picture it made me sick to my stomach. It looks be a development off the A-1 skyraider (the tail looks like a skyraider tail) and is numbered F-6D, basically it looks to be a slow, high loiter time, intereceptor based off a twin jet powered A-1, or maybe an A-6. Thing is, it's a Douglas design, and the A-6 is GRumman, so that leads me to think it was based off one of the A-1s twin seat models with twin jet propulsion and a high wing. But good lord is it ugly. Anyway here is the pic:

[Godzilla]

More trivia on my Fav fighter jet:

1. First flight on 21 December 1970

2. In 1974, the two squadrons, the VF-1 Wolfpack and the VF-2 Bounty Hunters, were deployed and assigned to the USS Enterprise (CVN-65).

3. F-14A: (2) TF30-414A Afterburning Turbofans with over 40,000 lb Total Thrust

F-14B/D: (2) F110-GE400 Afterburning Turbofans with over 54,000 lb Total

Thrust.

3. In 19 August 1981 2 Libyan Sukhoi Su-22 fighters attacked 2 F-14s of the VF-41 Black Aces stationed on the USS Nimitz CVN-68. Both Su-22s were destroyed by AIM-9 Sidewinders.

4. January 4, 1989, 2 Libyan MiG-23s went after 2 A-6 Intruders. 2 VF-32 F-14s were on CAP. Guess who lost? Engagement lasted over 6 mins.

5. F-14 Tomcat was based on the USAF FB-111 Ardvark.

6. In late 1995 the F-14 Tomcat took on a new combat mission as part of Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia. Nicknammed "Bombcat's", they delivered laser-guided bombs while other aircraft painted the targets with lasers. With the addition of the precision strike mission for F-14 aircrews, there was a shift in the emphasis of training; flight hours now have to be devoted to air-to-ground training as well as for air-to-air training.

7. The person responsible for the F-14 project was Admiral Tom Conolly, Deputy Chief, Naval Operations for Air. The aircraft was dubbed "Tom's Cat" long before the official name of "Tomcat" was ever adopted.

8. The F-14 "D" model houses the APG-71 digital radar. F-14A had the AWG-9 pulse-Doppler radar .

9. F-14 is by far the heaviest plane operated on a carrier. Last heavy jet was the A-5 Vigilante.

10. US Navy took great lengths to salvage/recover a F-14 Tomcat that rolled off a carrier with 2 Phoenix missiles attached so that USSR could not salvage it. It didnt matter since the fall of the Shah in Iran, the new regime had good relations with USSR and Iran was the only country that US export the F-14s to.

[Stamen0083]

I'm glad the single tail 'cat didn't make it. That thing is UGLY.

Question: Should Goose have died in Topgun?

[Knight26]

Goose should have lived, Maverick should have died. BTW the tech advisor on Top Gun hated how they killed goose, said that what they showed never could have happened, him hitting the canopy, many things wrong with that. Said that the better way for him to die would have been getting him trapped under his chute and drowning, which is a major problem and aircrews are trained how to escaped from that. We even used to do that with out trainees too.

[David Hingtgen]

Skull Leader--gotcha.

Knight26---143 are the Dogs, not 103, which everybody knows are the Sluggers. (They're not the Jolly Rogers till they change the number to 84 IMHO)

Stamen--no, Goose shouldn't have died. There are lots of things specifically designed to prevent that. The most obvious one being that the seats are taller than the headrest, so you'd have to be like 8 feet tall to have your head poke above the metal frame. Now, you can lean up and out above the headrest (and you'll usually see the crew sitting like that), but when you eject the harnesses automatically pull you in tight, down into the seat. In addition to the fact that the canopy fires off in such a way as to get out of the way as fast as possible (they pitch up 90 degrees so they catch air and instantly flip/fall out of the way due to drag). Plus the upper frame of the seats (not the pilot's head) are designed to punch through a canopy, should all else fail.

Let's see...

1. They rock!

2. VF-101 is gone in a few months. They will not disgrace themselves with Shornets. "Death before Bugs! " VFA-106 is expected to add on E and F models to be the new RAG, or possibly re-establish VA-174 as VFA-174.

3. F-14's are so inherently good at bombing, the Black Aces have won "best attack squadron" awards with non-upgraded A models! They didn't even need Bombcats to out-bomb A-6 and F-18 squadrons.

4. VF-1 and VF-2 were deployed to Vietnam to cover Saigon, but never got a chance to encounter MiG's. THAT would have been a lopsided fight, F-14 vs MiG-21....

[Stamen0083]

Stamen--no, Goose shouldn't have died.

I didn't think so.

4.  VF-1 and VF-2 were deployed to Vietnam to cover Saigon, but never got a chance to encounter MiG's.  THAT would have been a lopsided fight, F-14 vs MiG-21....

F-14's were in Vietnam? What year? I'm guessing way towards the end, right before the US was pulling out, right?

[Knight26]

Knight26---143 are the Dogs, not 103, which everybody knows are the Sluggers. (They're not the Jolly Rogers till they change the number to 84 IMHO)

Doh, oh man, what was I thinking, I have a Puk'n Dogs patch right by my computer too, doh doh doh. DH you have permission to flog me for my mistake. Arrgh. I am sorry that I have disgraced my beloved Dogs so. Not that the Sluggers are bad mind you, but man how did I mess that up? WIll go back and fix my earlier post.

[David Hingtgen]

F-14's were in Vietnam? What year? I'm guessing way towards the end, right before the US was pulling out, right?

While the F-14 was technically not involved in the Vietnam war (since Nixon declared end of offenses in Jan. 73) the F-14's did CAP cover the evacuation of Saigon in '75 and patrolled throughout the latter half of '74. So they were flying around Vietnam, fully armed, in the 70's, just not technically when a high-school textbook's illustrated time-line would show the Vietnam war as occuring in.

[F-ZeroOne]

The Area-88 manga actually has Mickey, in flashback, remembering being deployed to 'Nam, I believe with F-14s. I can't remember if he gets involved in dogfights for sure, but I seem to recall him getting sad over losses or something.

[Godzilla]

F-14s were used in the very very late stages of the Vietnam "Police Action". 2 squadrons were deployed on the USS Enterprise. Only two air-to-air engagements that the F-14s were involved in.

Edited July 15, 2004 by Godzilla

[ewilen]

Here's a bit of trivia: The Tomcat is the last of the Grumman "cats", Navy fighters with feline names:

F4F Wildcat

F6F Hellcat

F7F Tigercat

F8F Bearcat

F9F(1-5) Panther

F-9F(6- Cougar

F10F Jaguar (prototype only; never went into production)

F11F/F-11 Tiger

F-14 Tomcat

Here's a picture of several of them in flight together: http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/aircraft/cats.html

[Max Jenius]

I've got a Top Gun Question. Was what happened to Mav/Goose even possible on any plane ever? Iirc, they got caught in the jet-wash(I don't exactly remember, but I'm sure others have a better idea of what happened.) Then their tomcat started spinning on the horizontal(yaw?)... I mean... every time I see that movie I'm like "wtf just happened?"

Was this a problem with some earlier planes or somethin like that?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I've got a Top Gun Question. Was what happened to Mav/Goose even possible on any plane ever? Iirc, they got caught in the jet-wash(I don't exactly remember, but I'm sure others have a better idea of what happened.) Then their tomcat started spinning on the horizontal(yaw?)... I mean... every time I see that movie I'm like "wtf just happened?"

Was this a problem with some earlier planes or somethin like that?

YES

many pilots DIED when stuff lke that happened. See the TF30P414 engines on the F-14A was crappy as hell and was prone to stalling, if not exploding within the cowlings and damaging the engine more so. Usually when jamming the throttle back and forth fast during ACM(Air Combat Manuevering) 1 of the 2 engines would stall and this would make the working engine or the side of the working engine more heavy, in turn this would figure into adverse yaw rate, and with the momentum leaning towards the good engine at low speed the tomcat was prone to stall. Jetwash can stall an engine as well as sudden throttle movements in ACM. pilots of the old tomcat used to say fly the engine not the plane...until the F-14B came out.

Flat spins in the tomcat are hard to get out of mainly because its such a big aircraft and most of the time the engines would remain stalled. though the spin may be fast it is only fast horizontally not vertically,. so when the canopy is ejected, it kind of hangs there, and most of those whho died in flat spin ejections died the same way goose did, ejecting into the canopy. In a sense the canopy would jsut float there. Not like in high sped ejection where the canopy usually flies away. In a spin the plane ius not moving forward, just sideways. read this in a grumman book but I trust david and knight more than that book so yea I guess it is possible and some did die but perhaps well i dunno.

Knight are you a pilot? I remember you saying you worked on missles and stuff but I was wondering if you flew the cat before. I know some of us here are aviators but there is not man¥.

I think the F-14 2would have owned the Mig -21. Would have been cool to watch. Ewilen that is a great pic~!!!

BTW I am not sure the exact numbers but a site does have the confirmed kills from iranian tomcats nad boys it is HIGH~!! Seems our bad ass cat whupped some iraqi ass in teh middle east during the 80s!

including a confirmed kill of mig from a pheonix at a range of 10 miles! plane split and half and blew up.

[David Hingtgen]

Hey, Phoenixes are supposed to take out heavy bombers in one shot--they'd just vaporize a fighter.

And yes, F-14's have horrific spin characteristics, combined with crappy engines. F110's help prevent spins, but you're still pretty screwed if you spin a Tomcat.

Jetwash/propwash: generally, it's actually the wings making the effect. (Wingtip vortices). Few things on earth have a nastier wake than a 757.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

What a lot of people also do not know is that vice admiral Connolly retired before he could ever reach a higher position in the Navy. It is docuemnted in the tomcat! book by rear ad. paul gilchrist. basically when asked under alot of pressure what he thought of the F=111B, connolly said "sir you couldn't make a fighter out of that dog of a plane" or something to that effect,. With that the F-=111B was soon dead and later on connoly retired. But the F-14 was born.

Many people thought years later that someone in congress or military would be ballsy enough to do what connoly dead, stand up to cheney or whoever is in church, and verbally slam the sh*tnet to the point where the tomcat would remain the main carrier fighter and upgrade to Tomcat 21. Yet to happen and probably never will.

But yes thats a history lesson!

[Max Jenius]

See, now that's where I'm confused. Shouldn't their seats have smashed the canopy?

Or did it happen, but it was taken into account and "fixed" with an improved ejection seat?

[Stamen0083]

See, now that's where I'm confused. Shouldn't their seats have smashed the canopy?

Yes, that's why Goose shouldn't have died.

[ewilen]

I think the point is that with some airplanes, you can hit your head on the canopy if you eject under the wrong conditions, but with the F-14 (I assume all production models) you can't, because of how the seats are designed.

I remember playing the old mid-80's Spectrum Holobyte Falcon game (on a Mac Plus!), and in that one if you ejected without enough airspeed, you'd die. The canopy had to be pulled off quickly by the wind in order for you to be ejected safely. Nowadays, many/most fighters have zero/zero ejection systems, meaning you can eject safely even at zero speed/zero altitude. (Zero altitude would otherwise be a problem because you need some altitude for your parachute to deploy.)

Of course, if you eject while your head is pointed down, you could still be in trouble.

Edited July 15, 2004 by ewilen

[USMCBebop]

Said that the better way for him to die would have been getting him trapped under his chute and drowning, which is a major problem and aircrews are trained how to escaped from that.

LoL! Tom Cruise almost drowned at the NAS Miramar pool when he underwent that portion of the training.

[USMCBebop]

10-The A-4 mentioned in topgun though was meant to simulate enemy migs is nowhere near as fast as the tomcat(although jester in the movie said it simuilated migs and was indeed faster).

Yeah, even as a fourteen year watching the movie when it first came out, I was stumped at that, too. But I figure he [Jester] meant the A-4 was fast at maneuverability. What do you think?

I know if the Tomcat and the Scooter were in an air race, there's no doubt who would win.

[Knight26]

Shin, yes I am a pilot, civilian only, and am not current. However, I do have an hour each in the following planes, helps to have been a former AF cadet that they wanted to keep bad and have military pilot friends:

T-34C

T-38A

A-7E

RF-4C

F-16D

F-15D

F/A-18D

Any other military planes were just transports. Unfortunately I never was able to get time in a cat, at least not in the air, but well, well that's a story for another time, let's just say you can fly in a tomcat and still be on the ground, lol.

Also even in a flat spin, the shape of the canopy will get thrown so far from the aircraft that there is no chance of an ejection. Pretty much every plane since the F-14 has been fitted with a 0/0 ejection seat meaning that the pilot can safely eject and live at zero altitude and zero speed. Even some pre-tomcat aircraft were equipped with 0-0s.

A friend of mine works on ejection seats for planes and they run numerous tests to make sure that such problems do not occur. I almost got a job with him, would have been awesome.

[the white drew carey]

Re: Dead Goose-

Also, considering that the F-14 was supposed to be in a flat-spin, the canopy wouldn't have been anywhere near them when they ejected, as they would've rotated, dropped and probably moved away in another direction.

As to Godzilla's obscure fact:

10. US Navy took great lengths to salvage/recover a F-14 Tomcat that rolled off a carrier with 2 Phoenix missiles attached so that USSR could not salvage it. It didnt matter since the fall of the Shah in Iran, the new regime had good relations with USSR and Iran was the only country that US export the F-14s to.

Although keeping the F-14 out of Soviet hands was important, the U.S. was more concerned about the brand-new, top-secret Pheonix missile attached to the F-14 when it went over.

I recently read DARK WATERS, a book about the history of the NR-1, the Navy's little nuclear reasearch submarine (research= legitimate science as well as black ops). What happened is that there are a bunch of reporters on the Kennedy for Press Day during NATO exercises... and the Pheonix is brand new. As the pilot was taxiing (sp?) off the F-14 suddenly accelerated off of the aircraft carrier (later determined to be a stuck throttle). While the pilot and RIO were able to safely eject, the plane, and the U.S.'s new super-secret missile were lost in thousands of feet of water. Not only did the press report this, but Soviet spy ships (trawlers outfitted with a whole assortment of electronics gear) were in the area and knew this happened. So the NR-1 was called over to Scotland to begin searching for the Navy's new plane and missile before the Soviets try to grap it with one of their trawler nets.

The NR-1 searched the area and found nothing. Technicians pointed out that, because the wings were swept forward, their was a strong possibility that the plane "flew" to the bottom instead of sank straight down, which extended the serach area a couple hundred square miles more. Also, they pointed out that recovery should be easy since the plane probably touched down on it's landing gears and was probably just sitting normal down there waiting for someone to find it.

Needless to say, the NR-1 found a long furrow in the mud and followed it to the F-14, flipped upside down and entangled in a bunch of, presumably, Soviet nets. And the Pheonix missile was missing.

After several aborted attempts to raise the plane, the NR-1 finally took pictures of the cockpit in hopes that the techs could analyze the controls and see what went wrong, and went off in search of the missing missile.

They eventually found the missile as well, although need-to-know meant that no one had told the crew of the NR-1 that they were looking for a very large missile, so they kept dinking around looking for a sidewinder.

Just a little tidbit.

[Coota0]

I remember playing the old mid-80's Spectrum Holobyte Falcon game (on a Mac Plus!), and in that one if you ejected without enough airspeed, you'd die. The canopy had to be pulled off quickly by the wind in order for you to be ejected safely. Nowadays, many/most fighters have zero/zero ejection systems, meaning you can eject safely even at zero speed/zero altitude. (Zero altitude would otherwise be a problem because you need some altitude for your parachute to deploy.)

There's a difference here as opposed to pretty much every other aircraft canopy I can think of, the F-16 has a plexiglass(?) canapoy...I think. What I do know is the F-16 has a canopy that's not glass like most. In most aircraft if the Canopy doesn't pop off, you can break through it, the top of the ejection seat has a "canopy breaker" on it. The F-16's canopy flexes, the idea was that if there was a bird-strike with the canopy the canopy wouldn't break, it would just flex and the bird would bounce off...anyway long story short you can't break through an F-16's canaopy. If I had to guess I'd bet (from looking at pictures only) that the JSF and F-22 have the same type of canopy.

[David Hingtgen]

Don't forget planes like the Harrier and Tornado. They can't blow off their canopy, so there's det cord embedded inside to blow it to bits before the seats come out.

F-16's are pretty unique in having no forward frame for the canopy, so they actually blow off the windshield and middle, as opposed to most planes which have the windshield stay and they blow off the middle and rear sections.

[B-52 GUNNER]

Does anyone have a good picture of the F-14 Tomcat LOGO?

Scot