VF Control Systems

[platypiman247]

I few weeks ago, I posted a question on the newbie questions thread concerning the control systems used in VFs. I was interested in how a pilot could could get the smooth, natural movement exhibited in soldier and gerwalk modes using a control system that was composed primarily of joysticks & footpedals. At any rate, not recieving a particularly good answer, I decided to post a new topic concerning this question. Does someone know more about the control scheme or operating system than I do?

[Max Jenius]

Anime Magic. While Kawamori put some thought into it, its still not something that would be particularly easy to do. I like the DYRL/M+ styles. Though, BDI would be the best way to control a giant robot eh?

[Knight26]

BDI, or VR set up would be best for controlling the arms any mode true, and would especially useful in Battroid mode. I've long contended that at least in DYRL and later, until Mac-7 anyway, that the flight suits were also an integral part of the control system. The forearms and lower legs of which may have held sensors in order to control fine motor movement and possibly to initiate combat manuevers. Most Valkyire movement was likely preprogrammed though to act a certain way according to the control movements, like staying balanced and automatically moving the arms to hold the gunpod when aiming and firing. Macross 0 shows eyetracking lasers in the helmet, if we are to believe that those were also in the VF-1, just not shown due to budget then that is another control method as well. I once had an idea of macross sidestory following a VF-1D squadron where the WSOs were marines trained in controlling the Valkyrie via VR interface, where they were also wearing interface suits that reacted to their movements. However I am against writing fan fiction so I just leave it as another story idea for another day.

[Radd]

How do people get smooth, natural movement exhibited in games like Mechwarrior? Or anyu videogame for that matter?

A lot of this can be done with preprogrammed routines that kick in for certain circumstances.

[eugimon]

I'm wondering if there's just a lot of pre programmed moves... you don't have to control the basic walking, jumping, stuff like that... the ai just figures out what you want from you doing more basic commands... kinda like how you handle movement in games like tomb raider and what not...

but officially I go with anime magic.

[daeudi]

probaly preprogrammed moves, with a fuzzy logic apprehension system, in order to realize that "hey, that double press on pedal B means run!"

Think about the moves in Mortal Combat...

L1,L1,R2,X,X,X,<,<,<,O could mean to a VF-1: crscent kick follwed by a PPB punch.

And Max Jenius made his own damned GameShark!!!

[valk1j]

I'm wondering if there's just a lot of pre programmed moves... you don't have to control the basic walking, jumping, stuff like that... the ai just figures out what you want from you doing more basic commands... kinda like how you handle movement in games like tomb raider and what not...

but officially I go with anime magic.

Good point on the preprogrammed controls, but there must be some input from the controller that the computer couldn't do. Take for instance Hikaru catching Minmay mid-air, the fingers have to grab with just the right amount of pressure, too much you crushed her, too little she slips out. Catching a gunpod in midair from Mac 0, different yet. The computer would never know exactly what you wanted. Weight of object, size of object, durability of object, they would have to be judged by the pilot.

I believe there is a mix of computer and pilot imput. The computer would never figure out the variables in dressing up as a Zentraedi ala Max.

Anime magic is a good thing to go with here, but we have our own crutch - OVERTECHNOLOGY

[Max Jenius]

Fire Gunpod - D, DF, F, Fire

Thruster Kick - D, DB, B, Right Pedal

Skull Punch - F, D, DF, Fire

Itano Circus - Spin both joysticks 360 degrees and hit all the red buttons.

[Seph1roT]

Hi all this is my first post in here so i'll try to do my best .

I'm Italian so don't look too much at my english

First of all we're arguing about a sci-fic saga so what we all can say are mumblings and our thoughts . Not necessarily they represent the reality or the truth .

I'm pretty n00b about Robotech and Macross related stuff but a real mecha fan .

As an ex CSF Mechwarrior 4 player - hi Redchill - I'm just trying to tell what I do think about mecha controls .

Second

I was interested in how a pilot could could get the smooth, natural movement exhibited in soldier and gerwalk modes using a control system that was composed primarily of joysticks & footpedals.

Oh well . Let's start saying that in all modern airplanes like the F22 Raptor or the Sukoi 35 everything depends on stick and footpedals . When u think at a stick u have to understand that a stick it's not only that ugly thing in front of u .

The stick has two components . The one in front of u and another one on your left .

The second one is the throttle controller , but it isn't used only for throttle .

It handles many but many plane's functions .

Any throttle control hides from 15 to 42 functions like switching from active to passive radar , chaffing , flaring and so on .

Just think the VF in the Gerwalk mode -or in another VF configuration- it's manouvred not only by stick but by the throttle too , using rotating curson for torso movement and so on , as happens nowaday for the radar the chaff and 20-30 functions as said above .

Third

I've long contended that at least in DYRL and later, until Mac-7 anyway, that the flight suits were also an integral part of the control system.  The forearms and lower legs of which may have held sensors in order to control fine motor movement and possibly to initiate combat manuevers.

Mmmmmmm it's possible but u have to think that the flight suites have one work to do , and they have to do it at all costs . They are anti-g suits . They have to do only that . Assuming that a modern plane can phisically reach +9 or -9 gs a pilot without his flight suite will see red on positive and black on negative gs becoming harmless till his view returns normal -20-30 seconds in a dogfight mean certain death- . If , as I think , a Valkirye can reach at least 10gs positive or negative u simply can't place sensor on that zone since it's always under stress and the sensor's sensibility would be "blinded" by the work they are constantly doing .

Fourth

Most Valkyire movement was likely preprogrammed though to act a certain way according to the control movements, like staying balanced and automatically moving the arms to hold the gunpod when aiming and firing.

For sure . This it's called fly by wire . All modern planes use this system . Every flight control has at least 3 computers -redundancy to avoid 1 puter's failure- to analyze and correct every pilot's movement . Dunno if u know that modern planes like the European Typhon are litterally instable when they are projected and really behind human control without the fly by wire . It's their istability their strenght and without this instability they simply can't reach that attack angles .

Fifth

Macross 0 shows eyetracking lasers in the helmet, if we are to believe that those were also in the VF-1, just not shown due to budget then that is another control method as well.

Mmmm I'm not sure that the eyetracking laser in the helmet can help the pilot handling a VF . Lets say that the VF are an evolution on a modern plane .

So what's the eyetracking laser's work on a modern plane ? Quite simple .

Night vision , laser guided weapon assistance . A pilot simply can handle the plane or a VF while he's twisting his head for targets right left above under his craft .

The solution ? The hands are dedicated to handling the plane and the head it's dedicated to acquire and lock on targets in sight . Few seconds can decide a pilot's life or death .

As said above this are only my personal toughts .

Cya

Edited July 14, 2004 by Seph1roT

[mechaban]

Fire Gunpod - D, DF, F, Fire

Thruster Kick - D, DB, B, Right Pedal

Skull Punch - F, D, DF, Fire

Itano Circus - Spin both joysticks 360 degrees and hit all the red buttons.

I find this interesting.

Ever notice what Isamu does with his righthand stick to activate the Pinpoint-Punch during the street-fight in Eps 4?

He swivels to around like you would to get Ryu to perform Hadoken!

[Max Jenius]

Fire Gunpod - D, DF, F, Fire

Thruster Kick - D, DB, B, Right Pedal

Skull Punch - F, D, DF, Fire

Itano Circus - Spin both joysticks 360 degrees and hit all the red buttons.

I find this interesting.

Ever notice what Isamu does with his righthand stick to activate the Pinpoint-Punch during the street-fight in Eps 4?

He swivels to around like you would to get Ryu to perform Hadoken!

At first I thought this may make flight systems go out of whack... but hey... even the NES can tell the diff between a press and a tap.

SHORYUKEN!

If valks were flown like that, I'd be one of the better pilots IMHO. Cuz... umm... my friends call my Ryu Ryjew... (no offense to anyone out there, its just what they say)

[azrael]

No mech/robot can work without some programming. Computers just don't work per say. Your OS talks to your hardware and then your hardware talks to the rest of the hardware. This is all done by programming. Even cars come with some computer which has programs in it. There's lots of programming in Macross. You just don't see it. Gundam Seed explored this issue so use that as a highlight. So yes, VFs use fly-by-wire in their controls. Look at the Mars rovers. Robotics with lots of programming. Without all those programs, we would be sending billion dollar pieces of metal, glass, rubber and silicon into space that would do nothing but look shiny and fancy.

Macross 0 shows eyetracking lasers in the helmet, if we are to believe that those were also in the VF-1, just not shown due to budget then that is another control method as well.

Another possiblity is that the targetting systems have improved over the years. As I see it, the eye-tracker was a manual multiple-tracking targetting system. Imagine if you had 2x the amount of missiles targeting you, I won't want to try to manually track all those missiles. I would try to let the computer track it. And in M+, we see that. In episode 1 of M+, that missile swarm coming at Isamu at the very beginning. The computer picked up and tracked each missile coming at him (see those orange dots/brackets above Isamu's head on the attached image). Imagine tracking that with the eye-tracker.

Edited July 14, 2004 by azrael

[Druna Skass]

After watching Gundam SEED and how they talked about an MS's OS, I stared thinking, why do you only have to have one OS, a VF or an MS is pretty complicated. Maybe they have multiple OS, a simple one for regular fighting (like if the pilot was playing Armored Core) and a more complicated one for when you have to pick something up. On the combat OS pulling the trigger on one of the sticks would fire your gun, but if you switch to the fine movement OS the harder you squeeze the trigger or the stick itself the more the hand closes.

[JB0]

After watching Gundam SEED and how they talked about an MS's OS, I stared thinking, why do you only have to have one OS, a VF or an MS is pretty complicated. Maybe they have multiple OS, a simple one for regular fighting (like if the pilot was playing Armored Core) and a more complicated one for when you have to pick something up. On the combat OS pulling the trigger on one of the sticks would fire your gun, but if you switch to the fine movement OS the harder you squeeze the trigger or the stick itself the more the hand closes.

Because by definition you only have one OS.

An OS can run several sub-applications(your comp does it every time you use it), but you cannot run multiple OSes simultaneously, barring exotic workarounds such as emulators.

[azrael]

Because by definition you only have one OS.

An OS can run several sub-applications(your comp does it every time you use it), but you cannot run multiple OSes simultaneously, barring exotic workarounds such as emulators.

Yep. One way to use multiple OS on a computer would be to run an emulator (like Virtual PC for Mac). But you are still running 1 OS.

You have modules controlling various functions of a VF. In Gundam Seed, I would say Kira altered the modules on the Gundam's OS so badly that it would not respond to "the general user" input (i.e. he tailored the OS to his use). Much like how we alter the functionality of programs running on our computers, Kira did it to the point where he probably created his own modules in place of the ones used originally by the OS. Programs talk to the OS which talk to the hardware. All those programs provide the user with functions which help fly the VF. When a pilot squeezes the trigger on the stick to fire the gunpod, a program takes that input, feeds it to the OS, which tells the hardware what to do.

[Seph1roT]

Macross 0 shows eyetracking lasers in the helmet, if we are to believe that those were also in the VF-1, just not shown due to budget then that is another control method as well.

Another possiblity is that the targetting systems have improved over the years. As I see it, the eye-tracker was a manual multiple-tracking targetting system. Imagine if you had 2x the amount of missiles targeting you, I won't want to try to manually track all those missiles. I would try to let the computer track it. And in M+, we see that. In episode 1 of M+, that missile swarm coming at Isamu at the very beginning. The computer picked up and tracked each missile coming at him (see those orange dots/brackets above Isamu's head on the attached image). Imagine tracking that with the eye-tracker.

About the eyetracking laser

Mmmmm that pic does seem an hud seen from the opposite side so we simply can't understand what Isamu was seeing in that particular moment ... a normal hud has several sub hubs views .

About tracking inbound missiles well in mechwarrior there's a system named lams or ams ... lams does mean laser anti missiles system , ams means normal anti missiles system , so the pilot can concentrate only on the missiles that evade this first defence .

The concept behind this system is that the laser or an high velocity cycling cannon has the work to stop any or at least most of the incoming missiles .

If u see well the puter isn't always capable of stopping every single incoming missile .

I was just thinking to the eyetracking laser such an additional lock on sight weapon system for bigger targets , especially the stealth ones , that can't be acquired by radar or by other warning systems . The only way to acquire and lock on stealth targets it's using your own sight .

Cya

Edited July 14, 2004 by Seph1roT

[Aurel Tristen]

I few weeks ago, I posted a question on the newbie questions thread concerning the control systems used in VFs. I was interested in how a pilot could could get the smooth, natural movement exhibited in soldier and gerwalk modes using a control system that was composed primarily of joysticks & footpedals. At any rate, not recieving a particularly good answer, I decided to post a new topic concerning this question. Does someone know more about the control scheme or operating system than I do?

Computer control, acuators (shocks) and controls with lots of buttons and modes ^.^

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

My theory has always been a combination of game controllers, flight sticks and foot pedals. (in the arcade max and millia used normal game controllers).

Here's my fanfic theory:

Legs/feet

---------

footpedals are like a playstation 2 analogue stick There is a strap on belt that fixes to the pilots foot, he moves this giant foot pedal stick in any of 360 degrees of direction and at differring levels of distance within that direction which corresponds to the mechs hip to leg ball joints. To fire his foot thrusters he pushes down heavily to simulate a jet boost (like a gamecube trigger button "click") while

moving the giant analogue stick in the direction he wants to move. You know how on those playstation Dual Shock analogue sticks where they allow you to acually push the stick inwards down into the controlpad?

Similar thing here but with analogue instead of digital "pushing in" motion. ....But like gamecube's trigger button where..as the stick reaches it's maximum analogue limit you can click it down digitally. Which release the boost. You can have it so that it only releases boost while the trigger is clicked in.... or you double click (like mouseclicking) to sustain boost constantly so that you can curl your legs up into your body while the boost is on, and then click that pedal a third time to stop the boost.

The pedals are suspended upwards with springs to provide force feedback and as they are pushed down by the natural weight of the pilot, the knees on the mech straighten out. To do a massive kick, you would slam the pedal (connected to a analogue control stick) downwards and move the control forward. (remember you

foot is strapped to the pedal.) The analogue controls are like the angle of the balljoints in the hips of the mech at which you want to move the legs. Height of the mech is determined by how high the stick is from the cockpit ground. The stick is able to be push down into the ground.

Also the angle at which the feet of the mech are, depends on the angle of the foot pedal (on top of the stick, like the pedal of a bicyle but which can also be angled outwards in limited sideways motion as well as tilted forward or backward) to the base of the stick. There are sensors to show how "deep" the foot of the pedal (the top of the stick) is to the ground of the cockpit (like the Dual Shock's analogue stick's digital button that presses "in" to the control pad - only these are analogue not digital.)

As I mentioned, the stick can recede into the ground of the cockpit. When the foot pedal is 100% touching the ground of the cockpit, the mech is standing straight, when the pedal are released (and the springs push them up to simulate the forcefeedback of gravity on a human's leg), the mechs legs bend accordingly. Jet

boosters are activated by first pushing down the pedal to the ground so there is no more space between the cockpit ground and your foot, and then "clicking" the pedal down. (like a gamecube trigger button. Again if you've never seen or held a gamecube trigger you need to hold it to see what I mean. It is an analogue trigger, with a digital click.)

Arms/wrists

-----------

Now with the arms: easy! The joysticks are just normal flight sticks that sit on top of a stiff trackball-like base. (have any of you guys played an arcade game called "marble madness"? Think of a flight stick on the centre of that trackball) The trackball decides what angle the balljoint of the shoulder should be

moved in. The flight stick sitting on the TOP of that trackball base can then be moved in any of 360 degrees directions to move the forearm of the mech similar to analogue control sticks on video game controllers.

The wrists of the mech can be moved with tiny acupressure sticks on the flight stick(like the acupoint on those laptop keyboards used as the mouse. But this will have a different force feedback feel - very light and very sensitive and fine - compared to the flightstick so the pilot can finely coordinate his aim) through a tiny button near where the thumb is located on the flight stick. for those who are not familiar with what I'm talking about you'll have to analyse what that button feels like in real life.

When the acupressure button/stick is left alone the wrists just pop back into neutral postion. (having them make the mechs wrist go straight.)

On the surface, along the sides of the stick are analogue trigger buttons (yes just like the playstation control pad's trigger buttons only more ergonomic) for each finger of the mech so when you grip the flight stick tightly, those buttons are pressed down to make a clenched fist on the mecha. Normally there is some force feedback springs inside the stick's trigger-buttons to keep those buttons sticking up to make a released hand on the mech. But when you push them with varying degrees of pressure the mech's computer can aproximate the movment of the fingers based on the object you wish to grab (like the handle of a gunpod)

using some sensors to get the 3d shape of the object. When an object is gripped you will have the forcefeedback in the controls pushing the buttons up to similate pressure to picking up an object in real life. And indicators on the screen will tell how much pressure you are applying for delicate objects.

With the trackball base, (shoulders) the analogue flight stick that sits on the that base, (forearms) the stick's ability to rotate with in a left or right circular motion either to left of right (wrists), and the analogue trigger-buttons on the surface of the stick where the hand grips it, (fingers) you can simulate any movement of the human body.

In summary picture the controls as a flight stick (with analogue movment) stuck onto a trackball (with analogue movment), with a laptop acupressure point for fine control. (with you guessed it, analogue movement) And all of these with varying levels of adjustable pressure to synchonise with the pilot.

I thought this out about 5 years ago when trying to make an explanation to how the hands should move the arms of the mech. This explains how a mech can actually pull a trigger on a gunpod to make it fire while looking like the pilot is just pressing a set of trigger buttons on the flight stick. Because his "mech fingers" are just following his trigger fingers on the controls.

Hips/Head

---------

Now for rotating the hips of the mech, the pilot merely swivels the chair a little to get a constant movement until the joint can't move anymore and stops.

The head is interesting: I think there would be remote infrared sensor (or maybe something similar to the lightgun games we use to play in the arcades) mounted inside the helmet of the pilot that when it is pointed at the screen(shpwing us what's in front of us through the camera eyes), the computer tries to synchonise the actual mech's head movement to keep that red dot always at the centre of vision. eg. If I point the red dot to the left of the screen, the mech head will follow my centre of vision and move the head to the left, (with the "camera eyes" of the mech providing visual feedback of what I'm seeing onscreen as the head moves....thus constantly trying to keep the red dot coming from the infrared sensor in my helmet always focused in the centre of the screen. Simlar to how a mouse in a first person shooter controls the view in "mouse look" mode. The computer transmits what the red dot is placed on and the head turns to focus that object in the centre.)

If the pilot wants to lock that head into place because he wants to take his helmet off, he merely lets go of the flightstick, and pushes a key on the dashboard controls (come on now, you can't tell me that you've never had to take your hand off the flight stick to press a key on the keyboard when playing pc flight sims? )

If there is NO helmet, the pilot just manually moves the head with an extra analogue stick on the dashboard and the computer moves the mech head accordingly while the computer AI just controls the other arm automatically to keep the mech always-balanced. (or just supporting and guiding the nozzle of the

gunpod - I figure most of the time you only control the gun arm anyway.

Theoretically one flightstick could just be used for aiming the gunpod, with the unoccupied arm/slight stick just supporting and guiding the gunpod to give better accuracy - a task the computer can autmatically control so long as the cameras

are controlled by the pilot to keep the targets within view. Play "Virtua On" on dreamcast to know what I mean. An extra controlstick is needed on the dashboard anyway to control the head laser when cutting things...soo)

All of the controls for the arms and legs have springs of force feedback and fall into a default position when left alone so that the mech has some tension in the joints to make the pilot feel they are carrying a weighty piece of armour on thier own body and to make it feel natural for a person to move around and feel

connected to the mech. But when the pilot wants to leave the mech standing up, he can "park" that mech to lock it into position and maybe even pose it so long as it remains balanced. (dashboard control again)

Think of the adjustable tension of these controls as similar to the adjustments you can make on an excercise bike on hard and easier settings. Loose controls may damage the mech over time, stiff ones are slower but won't wear it out so easily. Eventually everything breaks from wear and tear..

Anyway that's how I've dreamed the controls of giant robots in general. The limbs and joints must be intuitive so the pilot can move just as he would as a human, otherwise it would negate the advantage of having a humanoid form.

I always assumed the ideal (physical control) mech would be controlled similar to ripley's loader in Aliens where the limbs of the person move the robot arm and the robot arm provides the power. Or if you've seen any of Shirow Masamune's stuff from appleseed...

some images to help visualise my fanfic theory:

^ the pilot can use the head to lockonto missles, or set the controls so that the arm holding the gunpod autmatically targets what's in front of him with the mecharm following the eyecameras in the mech's head. (target is whatever is centred onscreen similar to a first person shooter ) All other functions are accessed from the dashboards or hud.

Edited July 14, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Smiley424]

1/1 LowViz Lurker, your ideas intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter . Actually nice job with your control scheme description.

[Chronocidal]

Umm.. someone earlier mentioned the YF-19 cockpit, and how it has displays every which way, like behind the pilot's head... As I understand it, the YF-19's cockpit is fully holographic, and completely labeled with data from every angle. So, it basically works like a computer game: the target stays bracketed no matter where it was in the pilot's vision, instead of only when it's centered in the hud. The entire cockpit of that thing was one gigantic wrap-around hud. The instrument panel was really tiny, and didn't have much on it, so most of the flight data had to be either projected on the canopy and/or cockpit floor, or the inside of his helmet. When he's starting it up, you see a line for the horizon, and degree markings appear around the sides of the cockpit, and the floor of the cockpit goes transparent. I'm guessing these markings would go completely around, so that no matter where the pilot was looking, he'd be able to tell what the plane's orientation was.