Rare for the sake of being Rare (Rant)

[Ghadrack]

What is the deal with people lately, I know that there are completists and collectors that want to have a great collection, but some of this stuff is just sickening exploitation of collectors.

The perfect example is those foolish Toynami book ends, and since they are an easy target I will use them. The Robotech special limited edition convention exclusive blah blah blah, $200.00 retail book ends. Some guy is auctioning a pair on E-Bay right now with a BiN of like $750.00. I have no interest in having robotech bookends but they come up when I search Macross/RT stuff on E-Bay, but why exactly do these cost 200$ in the first place?

Seems to me to be abuse of collectors. There are essentially 3 groups of people who see these things, People that have no interest or think that $200.00 for book ends is ludicrous, People that really are interested in them and don't have the money, and finally those that have the money and feel compelled to buy them or think they are worth the money. I understand the company collecting $40,000.00 for 200 sets of book ends, that is pretty groovy for them, but what is going through the collector's mind with something like a book end or a little plastic gashapon that is more rare than another? I don't view these things as a nostalgia purchase, they seem like some sort of bizarre self-rationalized investment.

I guess I just wonder when even the hard core fan stops and says, "No friggin way!". The same could surely be said about the Yamato 1/48's and their hefty price tag, although I would argue that $125 to $160 dollars each for a highly detailed, mechanically transforming model makes more sense than a painted lump of porcelain or plastic it is still insane to some.

I guess this was more of a rant than anything, I understand that companies can control their profit margin more effectively by limiting production runs and setting a price that they feel they can sell out at, but it sure seems lame to me when they do ultra limited runs when they know their is excess demand and then elevate the price to cash in ofn the fever they create by making the run so small.

[nhyone]

You want another easy target? The recent Hikaru and Minmay limited CMs figures.

[mechaninac]

You can sum up a collector toy company's mindset this way: If you make it, geeks with money will buy it; and if you make it in limited quantities, the same geeks with money to burn will pay 10X as much and trample on each other for the privilege of buying it.

The fault lies not with the company, but with the collector who'll pay anything for the new limited edition bauble. Unfortunately, most of us are guilty of it at one time of another for one thing or another.

The way I look at it, if someone wants to buy something and is willing to pay the asking price, then go for it. As long as you're not hurting anyone else in the process on acquiring the funds necessary to support your addiction, who am I to say you shouldn't.

Edited July 8, 2004 by mechaninac

[NERV]

even the extreme collectors draw the line at that yamato 1/1 scale helmet

[MrDisco]

1/48 vis. hello?

the list is endless. if you are a toy collector and suffer from completist syndrome (it's a terrible disease) then you've basically painted a huge bullseye on your back for companies to target. You've become the Red Shirt of the consumer market.

[bigkid24]

I think there are two issues here. One is the limited run item that is high priced like the bookends. I think in general though items like this are typically limited like statues or busts. In general they are aiming at, obviously, adult collectors that have fairly deep pockets. They know it's not something that will appeal to the mass populace so they limit the run. Didn't the run start out at 200 pieces and then they upped it to 500 for the 1S version. They realized that the market demand would warrant more pieces so they made more. Any economics class will tell you that a monopoly allows smaller runs with higher price points and higher profit. Simple supply and demand.

Ghadrack, I don't understand the point of your rant. Do you want the bookends and you're pissed at the price or are you just ranting to rant?

The second issue is the limited run items like the CMS Hikaru and Minmay or any other convention exclusive. I think they are just enticements to go to the conventions and they cost very little to the company to make compared to a whole new figure. Usually, the exclusives are fairly priced at the events but then it's the aftermarket that pushes the prices into the stratosphere. It's not the fault of the company for the prices.

Okay, I'm bored at work so I'll keep going....

I'm glad that Yamato is keeping the low vis limited. What I mean is that I'm glad that they aren't re-issuing it. They said it was limited and that's the way it should be. They probably figured that a non-canon paint scheme wouldn't sell well so they kept it limited. Personally, I think that if they re-issue it, it will hurt future sales of other items.

[Blaine23]

It's only really sad when people start believing that the high price means they have to have one. The Low-Vis wasn't really all that hard to find, yet months later, all of sudden the boards are silly with people "dying" to get their hands on one.

Personally, I didn't want the bookends at $200 and I don't want them at $750. Same thing with the Vis. Either you like something or you don't... you set a price in your head as to what you'd be willing to pay for said item and you get it if it's something you can afford.

[Impreszive]

Lets take this one step further with the collectible card industry and the comic industry. There are more variants and sub sets now than you can shake a stick at. I have 4 copies of Superman #204 (1st Jim Lee Superman series issue) I had to get a damned CGC graded comic for $40, just to know that I will actually have a collectible item later in life. I still regret that purchase.

Don't get me started on cards. They suck ass.

[ChristopherB]

Hello,

Some of old timers will recall, or perhaps would prefer not to, but back in the day, Rosario brought up the same thing, replete with his customary purple font, except he referred to him as scalpers. Back then though, it was the 1/55 valkyrie that was king.

It all comes down to a rather simple explanation:

A true fan of whatever the subject may be, wants everyone who is interested to share in, participate and have access to all of the same things he does. He doesn't hoard knowledge, rare kits, or brag/gloat about his ownership of the one-of-a-kind collectible that only he has. For him/her it's about sharing the love, not making a buck off his fellow fan.

Everyone needs money, but making money by producing items in limited quantity so people fight over them and jack up the price is wrong. It's envitable, and it will continue to happen no matter what we say or do. It all comes down to principle, and it's part of life.

Sincerely,

Christopher

Edited July 9, 2004 by ChristopherB

[MrDisco]

Lets take this one step further with the collectible card industry and the comic industry.  There are more variants and sub sets now than you can shake a stick at.  I have 4 copies of Superman #204 (1st Jim Lee Superman series issue)  I had to get a damned CGC graded comic for $40, just to know that I will actually have a collectible item later in life.  I still regret that purchase.

oh man the comic industry is starting to fall back into's old habbits. dreamwave's Transformers - so many variant and dealer incentive issues (partly why i dropped energon and refuse to buy micromasters). Marvel and Astonishing X-Men. dc and Batman (i still need the 2nd print of #608 grrr). not to mention exclusive covers for dynamic forces or other comic shops (like graham crackers).

there were 4 covers for superman 204??

edit - typo

Edited July 9, 2004 by MrDisco

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Look at it from certain consumers' view-point.

Some people like the idea that they have something exclusive. They don't want something every other tom dick and harry has.

If a company release a limited run of 1 or 20 or 1000 I think its fair enuff. Free market economy, nobody forcing anyone to buy it. These are luxury items, not water in a desert.

What irks me slightly for its chutzpah is when they do the _limited run of 67,345,222. Congratulations! You are the certified owner of serial no. 23,555,341 out of 99,999,999 limited hand-crafted exclusive treasures.... But fair enough, Caveat Emptor, buying suckers should learn how to read and do simple statistics.

What really irks me is when they promise a limited run of say 500, then proceed to add a red paintdot somewhere on the underside or change the smallest detail and proceed to crank out mass production runs after the limited run is sold out.

Case in point is the damn Renault Clio Williams. Bastards! No I didn't buy one.

[Solscud007]

I think it is partly the bragging rights. I have this and you dont. Now the person doesnt have to flaunt their collections but they have it for their own personal enjoyment. My grandfather collects ancient chinese art. Ming vases, wall scrolls and other stuff that is priceless. He has a huge collection. on occasion he sends some of it on tour. but that is the tip of the iceberg. He collects it cause he likes it. Probably also because it is worth something.

You rant about the book ends but they are nice looking. Ok here is another example. I like 1/55 Valks. I like the fact that i own a pretty nice GBP-1S in box, takatoku more so than my Bandai reissues. Why is that? Perhaps it is nostalgia and the fact that it is the original!!!

About the 1:1 helmets you are wrong, fans do buy them and then some buy too much (ahem someone I know but with holding the name to protect the innocent)

Some times companies/individuals are limited to how many they can make. Take Wonderfest. Those individuals make the craziest stuff I have ever seen but supposedly the con limits them to a really small run of liek no more than 20 can be made.

The CMS limited were probably made as an after thought and never gave any mind to the fact that it would be rare. or that any one would care.

[MrDisco]

The CMS limited were probably made as an after thought and never gave any mind to the fact that it would be rare. or that any one would care.

thats bogus. if there's anything i've learned since getting into japanese collectibles is that they are masters of creating highly desireable collectibles. they fully know that fans will eat up any popular license and will goto great lengths to get complete sets.

[Solscud007]

But why bother? Huh? Its not like CMS will ever see the resale profits? They made it and sold it for how ever much. But the people who paid the original price are the ones who make bank not the company. So why bother?

[Commander McBride]

I often wonder if the same compaines shortpacking items that are in high demand keep their own stocks of the same items, to sell on ebay under pseudonyms. Think about it, maybe that 750 dollar bookend set is actually being sold by HG themselves. Knowing them, after all, I wouldn't be surprised...

[Skull Leader]

I'd like to discuss the low-vis for a moment (in terms of rarity and value).

The real craze to get one of these didn't really hit until the run was over and people realized Yamato wasn't going to do a second run. The run stopped late last year, but the massive run to get one of these didn't really start up until around March or so of this year (yeah, there were always people that hunted them, but not in as great a frequency as recently).

It seems to go in waves, and I think conversation and panic helped to spark it. There was some discussion earlier this year where a number of people believed there might be a possibility that Yamato might do a second run of low-visability valkyries. There were enough nay-sayers that mentioned that it was a limited run and would NOT be reissued, so it was "off to the races". People stopped waiting for what wouldn't happen and grabbed for whatever they could find... and up the price went Maybe it's unprincipled to flaunt it obsessively ("HA! I have it and YOU don't!!!"), but even as a fan I think there really is something cool to being "one of the few" when it comes to owning a certain commodity. Depending on how YOU (as individuals) classify being a "fan", it's only as big a deal as you make it out to be (or so I think)

It's also important to know that once you're beyond the initial "deal", oftentimes the appeal goes down slightly (although I love my low-vis valkyrie and I feel the price I paid for it was justified, I'd give it up long before I'd give up my Hikaru 1S Strike set which I paid less for, but I love it far more) We all have items we'd love to get our hands on, but missed the boat for... for me it was a Takatoku VF-1 Super Valkyrie set and an original bandai strike valkyrie set. I've managed to console myself though that they're only different paint variants on the other Takatoku/bandais I own.

It *is* important to note that however evil people may feel "limited editions" are, they do encourage and invoke the want to collect. It's generally those "out of reach" pieces that keep us in the collecting game. In my opinion, those "rare" or "limited edition" pieces were really meant to be the "end-all be-all" of someone's collection (that which you persue when you've already accumulated everything that is more accessable), it's only the minority that have the bankroll to go head to head with Yamato's (or insert any other "company X" here) production schedule. What this translates into is that the majority of collectors have a collection of many things that are easier to find and generally one or two "main attractions"

[TheLoneWolf]

I'm glad that Yamato is keeping the low vis limited. What I mean is that I'm glad that they aren't re-issuing it. They said it was limited and that's the way it should be. They probably figured that a non-canon paint scheme wouldn't sell well so they kept it limited. Personally, I think that if they re-issue it, it will hurt future sales of other items.

Re-releasing the low-vis will only hurt the sales of the original low-vis, which Yamato doesn't care about since that run is long over. Someone perfectly described "completists" as buyers will bulls-eyes on their backs The "completist" is precisely the type of person that Yamato counts on to buy their reissues and variants. Conversely, while the average Macross fan would know better than to buy the exact same toy twice, mom & pop shops and TRU don't, so Yamato still makes money off them. It might not be this year, or even next year, but I firmly believe Yamato will re-issue the low-vis (or some variant such as a 1J). Just look at the ridiculous prices this cash cow is commanding on E-bay, there's most definitely a demand for it.

[CF18]

But why bother? Huh? Its not like CMS will ever see the resale profits? They made it and sold it for how ever much. But the people who paid the original price are the ones who make bank not the company. So why bother?

Those CM figures are trading toys - In a box of 20, one or two may be the limited figure, and you don't know which one you will get until you pay and open it. It's all just scheme/scam to make people buy muliple copies to get what they want. IMO this kind of business should be regulated and taxed, since trading toy/card is just gambling.

Edited July 9, 2004 by CF18

[Solscud007]

But why bother? Huh? Its not like CMS will ever see the resale profits? They made it and sold it for how ever much. But the people who paid the original price are the ones who make bank not the company. So why bother?

Those CM figures are trading toys - In a box of 20, one or two may be the limited figure, and you don't know which one you will get until you pay and open it. It's all just scheme/scam to make people buy muliple copies to get what they want. IMO this kind of business should be regulated and taxed, since trading toy/card is just gambling.

granted that works for chase figs. But im talking about con exclusives where you know what you are getting and the resale is insane.

Speaking of which I should do a post. But Sideshow toys is being really really anal about its Comic Con exclusives. You can only get one if you pre-order online. And only online. You have onyl two chances to provide a decent creditcard number.

Here is the kicker. You must be physically present to pick up the item at Comic con. You have to have photo id and the printed Receipt. No one can pick it up for you. If you cant make it they automatically refund the money to youand you dont get it. That item is then put into a lottery for people who already know they cant make comic con.

tough to get huh?

Oh th exclusives are 1000 pc. Kroenen 12", 1000 pcs. Angel 12", 1:4 Samaritan gun (for got the numbers) and a smeagol bust.

kroenen looks badd assed so im gettign one and the samaritan.

[Ghadrack]

Any economics class will tell you that a monopoly allows smaller runs with higher price points and higher profit. Simple supply and demand.

Ghadrack, I don't understand the point of your rant. Do you want the bookends and you're pissed at the price or are you just ranting to rant?

Sure, I am aware of the economics involved, I think that the logic is a little flawed in the sense that the original manufacturer never gets a piece of the re-sal pie unless they Horde or "Find a warehouse stock" of the item after they have created a desire for the item and then attempt to sell it at elevated prices. Naturally, the recognition of the public that they create rare and desireable things will probably enhance future sales and allow for greater production runs.

There really wasn't much point to my statement, I could care less about Toynami bookends. Don't have any, don't desire any, don't have any space or use for them.

I just think that the "Rare for the sake of being Rare" item is a little stupid, it just creates animosity amongst fans, sort of a haves and have nots situation when the original creator is selling an item with a 6 dollar production cost for $200 it puts it out of reach for the average kid. It's all about the benjamins, and that's OK we are a capitolist society, seeing this kind of stuff just makes me re-think my priorities when it comes to collecting, even things that I like. Should I really spend that extra cash just because something is rare? Probably not.

[Impreszive]

"oh man the comic industry is starting to fall back into's old habbits. dreamwave's Transformers - so many variant and dealer incentive issues (partly why i dropped energon and refuse to buy micromasters). Marvel and Astonishing X-Men. dc and Batman (still the 2nd print of #608 grrr). not to mention exclusive covers for dynamic forces or other comic shops (like graham crackers).

there were 4 covers for superman 204??"

There was one cover for Superman #204 as far as I know. I'm suprised D/F didn't do one, since they do an exclusive cover for every damn comic in the universe.

Transformers and Dreamwave is an excellent example BTW. I have a number of exclusives, especially 2 of the rare Volume 2 #6 issues with Ultra Magnus and one of the Issue #1 Shockwave variant. The sad thing is that the new TF is an excellent series. It is being ruined by this practice.

I'm gonna take your Batman #608 one step further. The 2nd print isn't the best one. There was a D/F exclusive that is netting around $500 now. Noone I know even heard of this comic. Hell, my shop owner wasn't too aware of it.

This is the same thing with baseball cards. They are marginalizing the industry, and not really making it much of a collector's market. I heard of a series of basketball cards where the packs are $500 a pop now!

[MrDisco]

Think about it, maybe that 750 dollar bookend set is actually being sold by HG themselves. Knowing them, after all, I wouldn't be surprised...

that's extremely unfair. we shouldn't drag this thread down by making unfounded accusations. and no i dont think any company would knowingly hold back stock and sell them under assumed names. ebay is being driven completely by individuals looking to make a quick buck by scalping desirable items.

[VALKYRIE-EXCHANGE.COM]

Think about it, maybe that 750 dollar bookend set is actually being sold by HG themselves. Knowing them, after all, I wouldn't be surprised...

that's extremely unfair. we shouldn't drag this thread down by making unfounded accusations. and no i dont think any company would knowingly hold back stock and sell them under assumed names. ebay is being driven completely by individuals looking to make a quick buck by scalping desirable items.

I have to agree with Mr. Disco...I don't think HG would bother....Plus if it ever came out, the sh*t would hit for fan for both HG and Toynami....The backlash would hurt them pretty badly...

Yeah, it sucks there only a handful of limited item to go around but that part of the nature of collecting...If you are the completist, sometimes you'll have to fork out alot of money to have something....I shelled out $750.00 for the Takatoku GBP1S/VF1S set years ago....I don't think I could even get $550.00 for it today since there are other alternatives out there.....Oh well....

-K

[bigkid24]

I'm glad that Yamato is keeping the low vis limited.  What I mean is that I'm glad that they aren't re-issuing it.  They said it was limited and that's the way it should be.  They probably figured that a non-canon paint scheme wouldn't sell well so they kept it limited.  Personally, I think that if they re-issue it, it will hurt future sales of other items.

Re-releasing the low-vis will only hurt the sales of the original low-vis, which Yamato doesn't care about since that run is long over. Someone perfectly described "completists" as buyers will bulls-eyes on their backs The "completist" is precisely the type of person that Yamato counts on to buy their reissues and variants. Conversely, while the average Macross fan would know better than to buy the exact same toy twice, mom & pop shops and TRU don't, so Yamato still makes money off them. It might not be this year, or even next year, but I firmly believe Yamato will re-issue the low-vis (or some variant such as a 1J). Just look at the ridiculous prices this cash cow is commanding on E-bay, there's most definitely a demand for it.

Yeah, if they re-issue a Low Viz 1A, initially, it will only decrease the aftermarket price of the first run, but if they re-issue this then what's to stop them from re-issuing other items. If a toy company is just going to keep re-issuing stuff then why buy first runs? I'll just wait for the glut of product and the sales that will go along with them. If stuff doesn't sell the first time around at full price then vendors may be reluctant to order very much product. Leading to lower sales and what the company could perceive as lower demand for their product. If demand is lower then there could be less supply but since they can't raise their price point they make less money.

Part of my fear is that they will follow Toy Biz's business model. Toy Biz makes Marvel Legends and Lord of the Rings figures. They sell for about $7-$8 individually and are in high demand for the most part. The problem is a few months after a wave is released they re-issue items either in boxed sets (Marvel Legends) or in new packaging (LOTR). Typically, they are cheaper in either form than the first runs. Now I know this is just the company trying to milk the molds for as much money as possible but I think this cuts into sales. Why buy first run if in a few months I can save some money and get, in most cases, the exact same item?! I know this isn't exactly applicable here but this is what I was talking about.

[bigkid24]

Any economics class will tell you that a monopoly allows smaller runs with higher price points and higher profit.  Simple supply and demand. 

Sure, I am aware of the economics involved, I think that the logic is a little flawed in the sense that the original manufacturer never gets a piece of the re-sal pie unless they Horde or "Find a warehouse stock" of the item after they have created a desire for the item and then attempt to sell it at elevated prices. Naturally, the recognition of the public that they create rare and desireable things will probably enhance future sales and allow for greater production runs.

My monopoly example only related to the initial price point of $200 for the bookends. It's a high end item that not everyone (mass market) is interested in so they make just enough at a high price point to make a nice profit and not be stuck with inventory. I assume it's the company's best guess as to what the market will bear.

The secondary market is to blame for the exorbitant prices on ebay. I don't think it's really fair to blame Toynami.

[fearyaks]

Don't forget that the bookend market wil likely go down since (as already stated) there are 500 of the first set, will be 200 of this set and there will likely be some sort of New Gen set coming out soon. This glut of bookends will cause all of them to even out in price since demand will level out a bit. For example, I'd like a set of bookends but I won't pay more than $300 for them. I'm going to try to get at least one of this set or at the very least one of the New Gen sets.

Interesting regarding Yamato and the LV. I agree, they could make a pretty buck by re-releasing them since they're already all purchased (in their eyes) but it could hurt their reputation and affect any future 'limited editions'.

The real question will be if they re-release the 1S'...

[Ghadrack]

Yeah, it sucks there only a handful of limited item to go around but that part of the nature of collecting...If you are the completist, sometimes you'll have to fork out alot of money to have something....I shelled out $750.00 for the Takatoku GBP1S/VF1S set years ago....I don't think I could even get $550.00 for it today since there are other alternatives out there.....Oh well....

-K

See, now I view this differently though, the Taka GBP as far as I know, wasn't released in an EXTREME (e.g. 500 piece) run and sold for a significantly higher pricepoint than the Strike 1-S was it? I don't see that as something that was made just purely for the sake of being rare, as opposed to the CMS chase figures or the bookends. Even the chase figures and collectible cards I understand their motivation, because now, the manufacturer is holding you hostage to purchase blindly in hopes that you get something special, which is really sort of scummy on a base level, but has been accepted by society as a valid marketting tactic.

That and the fact that you are buying a 20+ year old collectible toy on the collector's market goes into the price, I can understand the logic behind that sort of pricing and purchase.

[nhyone]

The second issue is the limited run items like the CMS Hikaru and Minmay or any other convention exclusive.  ... Usually, the exclusives are fairly priced at the events but then it's the aftermarket that pushes the prices into the stratosphere.  It's not the fault of the company for the prices.

Surely no one believes that the prices will stay the same, due to the extreme mismatch in supply-n-demand. I would say the item is undervalued initially for their exclusiveness. (I agree that the items don't appeal to everyone, but demand should be higher than supply, or they would have limited the supply even more.)

I'm glad that Yamato is keeping the low vis limited.  ... Personally, I think that if they re-issue it, it will hurt future sales of other items.

Yamato will lose a lot of goodwill if they reissue it. But why focus on the low-vis? They can always come out with another limited non-canon color scheme. People will lap it up, thinking it will be another low-vis, and the prices of low-vis will go down, because now the number of limited VFs is doubled.

Edited July 10, 2004 by nhyone

[ShadowerV2]

Hmmm.. rare for the sake of rare can be a pain in the butt. A friend of mine who owns a comic shop here in Brisbane is very annoyed with some companies that deliberatly ships cases with an odd ratio of only one of the wanted ones but a bunch of the other figures. Sort of like the He Man figures.

He said they did it to drive up prices and create rare items. Couldn't argue with that. It's a pain when companies do it.

Now as for the really rare stuff that get created. Would people still want it if it was everywhere?

It's like the food rich people like to eat like abalone and stuff. It taste like crap but it cost alot. I suppose the "expensive taste is what makes it "great"

Out of curiosity what if the Low Vis was not limited? How many of you here would get it just because it's another Valk?

Would there still be a big hunt?

Edited July 10, 2004 by ShadowerV2

[wolfx]

It's like the food rich people like to eat like abalone and stuff. It taste like crap but it cost alot. I suppose the "expensive taste is what makes it "great"

ROFLMAO!

That's true....they DO taste like crap. But they will try and tell u that it contains alot of vitamins and has some uber healing properties etc.

[sidearmsalpha]

The thing about the bookends is that, from what I hear, they were really well done. I think they made these things TOO limited. Sucks that Toynami finally put out something really cool, but they are really limited.

The same goes for alot of things I collect. They go and make these really cool things, so the demand for them is high, then they make matters worse by making them limited.

The Low Vis is a good example. I like the military paint scheme, so limited or not, I would have picked that up.

If I miss out on something, I just put it on my Wanted list and hope that I'll pick it up later, hopefully when secondary market values have cooled off.

[Jemstone]

I admit I am a "completist" in regards to certain things I collect btu there is one rule I do follow: If it has it is marketed as "collectible" or has "collectible" stamped somewhere on it, it is and will always be WORTHLESS.

Now I laugh at all those fools who ran to get Dale Earnhardt Jr "Collectible" KFC buckets!!