Popularity of Gundam

[Final Vegeta]

First of all, all scientific references of the original Gundam were invented by Studio Nue (actually scientific references of all old anime were done by Studio Nue). I don't really think they worked in the sequels, though (actually, I don't have heard their names even in Macross' sequels). Gundam didn't have an impact on Macross in this; SR shows were done that way mostly because authors didn't know physics and war machines. Actually, even Tomino doesn't know them, he hates war and sci-fi.

I think Minowsky particles were simply invented to justify what was a common style of combat in mecha anime. Indeed, everything must happen on screen. Stretching beyond this obviously could leave some gaps, but people misunderstood this. In fact, original Macross and original Gundam are in the same classe as for feasibility. It's a mixture of real science and sci-fi theories. Studio Nue for istance knew you can't have a thermonuclear reactor without a really thick concrete shield or the like. They cheated both in Macross and in Gundam; they didn't ignore that fact, they justified it with a convenient sci-fi theory.

The objective was not what you can call "realism", it was just a fascinating sci-fi, because all Japanese adult anime fans at the time were also sci-fi fans. High tensile steel and luna titanium are not real world materials, but they suggested an idea of toughness. Fluid pulse actuators are something that could be done in real world, though (Graham, Federation use field motor actuators which use I-field. This is another use for Minowsky particles).

A sidenote: officially hypercarbons are meant only for the engine blocks of the SDF-1. Actually though in Gundam luna titanium was first used for reactore cores. By the way, hypercarbons should mean something akin to diamonds.

A bit of science: electromagnetic waves are carried in small energy quanta called photons. Photons usually don't interfere with each others. If they do (really rare, you use a special machinery to do photon collision) they are bent so that one goes in the some direction and with the same energy of the other. Basically it's like nothing ever happened. ECM in fact works producing white noise or contradictory noises beyond radar processing capabilities.

(this site seem exhaustive on how a radar works)

By the way, to detect a F-117 you could just use a UHF radar. Radio waves are bent differently according on their frequencies. It is still too big a radar to be used in missiles though.

The real effective way of interacting with an EM wave is using charged particles, like electrons, protons or ions. Stamen0083, I suggest you searching for informations about "plasma stealth". Minowsky particles basically work in the same way.

Besides that, heat and IR are not the same thing. Even some shades of red can radiate heat. Usually though heat is carried by thermal IR, which is not all existing IR. There is even some other IR which is simply light too "dark" to be seen. Think of the difference between heat vision and night vision, which both use IR (remember that they use false colours though).

As for Gundam world, it is stated large heat sources are detectable, so not all thermal IR is affected. I think Minowsky particles inside a reactor should prevent it from glowing more than a sun, but they can't hide it all. Another thing to be said, only ships and large mobil armors can spread Minowsky particles. Most MSs can't do that.

It appears the tactic is using MP just for stealth approach with carriers from afar. Once everything starts powering up for battle heat should be visible. Anyway, MP does not seem to be used always, at least in the first series. For istance in the first episodes Amuro tries to strike Char's ship and he is actually detected but Char simply thought the White Base was too near. Char surely wasn't using MP. The White Base also tried to contact Ryu, even though they failed because Ryu turned off the radio, so they weren't using MP either.

Maybe it happened like in Matrix, where they felt they needed to insert slow-motion in every combat scene; so in Gundam when something happens the first thing they do is blocking comunications with their men.

Maybe there could be countermeasure to such "stealth" based on Doppler radar or the like, but for the sensors of a standard missile MP is a good trick.

Another thing: I don't think Minowsky particles were meant for Earth, just for space, at least in the beginning. Actually, even MSs were meant as space only. Anyway, a tank is still more effective than a MS, providing it's not a WWII tank; they don't need to use radars or sensors. Jaburo may be good for secrecy, but if it were me I would have just built an undergroung base in a large plain. IIRC even Fort Knox is built in a plain.

Now, for the question of the topic: yes, Macross would be more popular that way, and even regarded better due to mob mentality. I think there is one main thing preventing this, though: the design of the Valkyries is terribly complicated. Moreover, the toys are one of the most complicated things to make. The toys really prevent Macross from spreading. They are too costly if they don't look like crap, and not really good as a toy if you meant to play. You could have non-trasforming toys, but the fascination of the Valkyries comes from how each piece is placed in each mode. Only statues can look good incomplete.

I usually laugh at the whole "war is bad". It's a typical fan hypocrisy. Months ago there was a discussion about which was better between Z Gundam and V Gundam, and only one person compared the story, all the others could only talk about how they pitied the guys dead in one of the two more than in the other. That showed how good the stories were. In fact, I once saw some scenes of the movie Titus, which I think was adapted from a Shakespear's work, and there was this lady who was prevented from witnessing by cutting her tongue and her hands. She was also raped, but not killed. They left her with branches in her wrists, and when she was found she threw up blood over her white dress. Then I thought anime could never be an art form because they will never have the violence of the classics.

Let's face it, violence has always had good marketability. Too much violence is only for elite (a step above the adult there is the splatter sucker), but a decent almost bloodless mecha slaughter may entertain even children. Wilde said war would be appealing as long as it's violent, only vulgarity would turn people off.

Actually, thinking only of "war is bad" prevents you from really grasp what was the real meaning of the anime. Conflict is simply a way of inserting battle scenes and therefore mecha. If you look at the original Gundam, you could see that the old Zabi was like the Japanese emperor who regreted the war and wanted to stop it and Giren was like the military who seized power. Amuro as the newtype represented the apparition of a new cultural generation which in Japan was totally repressed back in '68.

I think the original Gundam was good, but I don't have a real interest in others (aside from the fact they have mecha). I would like more originality; for istance, I would like to see anti-psi like in Philip Dick's works. Their meaning would be that human comunication sometimes is blocked without even people wanting it. Maybe it would be good if most of anti-psi would be girls, at least as for the ones seen in the story. Then the main character falls in love with one of them, and he is a newtype. We even get to know newtypes die of cancer due to their powers when they get old (I don't think there is something contradicting this ). There is an old newtype ace (who looks suspiciously like Char) who stopped fighting and survived because he always lives together with an anti-psi girl, so love is presented like a solution. I think that would be a better story than "war is bad", but it's still not complete. It lacks a villain, and a story.

As for formulas, Macross obviously bears its share, but I think what makes it distinctive from Gundam is the villains. In most of Gundam the villain could only be Zeon. It could change its name to Axis but it will be the same old villain with black, green, orange and purple MSs (plus the red leader). Macross instead has aliens piloting non-humanoid mecha, space monsters, AI-controlled fighters, other Valkyries and the like. The reason of the villains are always new, and that is what really keeps Macross' stories fresh.

I laugh at the theory of character repetitions in Macross. It's true that an author has his types of characters, but Shin is actually more a Van Fanel than a Hikaru (he has more lust for vengeance than the others). The real character type goes something like this:

-Villain who enjoys being evil but ultimately is a tragic figure:

Kamjin, Gigile, Dilandau, Nora.

-Obnoxious little girl:

Mylene, Merle, Cindy, Mao.

I think there could be even a type "former friend villain who seeks atonement", listing Guld, Folken and maybe even Ivanov (let's see what happens in the last OVA of Macross Zero).

Then there are less pure type of characters. Isamu and Basara seem the same type of character (the dream pursuer, who cares more for his passion than for his girl), but Isamu maybe is mixed with Roy Focker.

Miria was the original strong woman, but in the last anime of Kawamori we have Teresa Wong and Katie, who have short hair and a masculine look.

One curious thing is that usually these characters have even similar looks. With this POV, the fact in Macross 7 they are graphically more different than others may be significant.

FV

[Final Vegeta]

It's only a matter of time before things start becomming stale, it's ineviable for all franchises. Macross is no exeption, a few series down the road, unless Kawamori decides to totaly blind side us (music plays a small role, not much of a love triangle, UN Spacy blows the hell out of someone with sheer military might, etc...)

Good, someone said Macross and Macross 7 were the old good "war is bad" and then you suggest a series whose only difference from the former is that the most distinctive elements of the franchise are removed.

How preventing something becoming stale just by making it run-of-the-mill.

FV

Edited July 10, 2004 by Final Vegeta

[Druna Skass]

Good, someone said Macross and Macross 7 were the old good "war is bad" and then you suggest a series whose only difference from the former is that the most distinctive elements of the franchise are removed.

How preventing something becoming stale just making it run-of-the-mill.

FV

I'm simply stating that unless a series under goes some drastic change, no matter what it's only a matter of time before it reaches some point where people will start complaining that something has already been done before. Am I wrong? We have the Gundam example here, The Simpson's is also a good example, so are the countless sitcoms out there.

If Macross were to follow the same formula that SDF and Macross 7 follow, with an arrogent Earth government, and some alien race suseptible to culture shock, for the next few sequels. It won't be long before people complain about repetetiveness.

What are you trying to say with your last statement, you're grammers pretty shot and I can't tell what you're trying to say...

[Stamen0083]

First of all, all scientific references of the original Gundam were invented by Studio Nue...

No one said anything about scientific references.

Before Gundam, robots were super robots. After Gundam, robots are real robots.

Without Gundam, your Valkyries would be much more colorful, with wierd crap sticking out all over the place, and Roy, Hikaru, Max, and Millia's Valkyries would combine to form a Super Valkyrie, which then promptly shoots breast missiles at Godzilla.

There's always that possibility.

Edited July 10, 2004 by Stamen0083

[Jolly Rogers]

Some people need to go back and read the beginning of the thread.

Agent One said it best: sequels are spin-offs aren't meant to be original/different. People tune in because they expect to get more of the same. You wouldn't want a Star Wars movie to be a holiday musical, or a Die Hard movie to be a period drama.

[Druna Skass]

Agent One said it best: sequels are spin-offs aren't meant to be original/different. People tune in because they expect to get more of the same. You wouldn't want a Star Wars movie to be a holiday musical, or a Die Hard movie to be a period drama.

True, but if you want something to have a long life span, then you have to play the delicate balancing act of old stuff/new stuff if you want to keep things fresh. Too much of the old stuff and it gets repetative, too much of the new stuff and you alienate the "veterans".

But what ever formula you use you're going to reach a point where you've done everything you could with it, by then you can either A: let it end there, B: gamble and put out something totaly out of the blue, or C: put out re-makes.

[Jolly Rogers]

I think these days, sequels and spin-offs are less about giving fans more of what they want than having a sure hit. It's all about brand recognition. Why do you think they cranked out 2 new CSI shows when the original is still on the air.

Some shows probably wouldn't be approved by the production studios/companies in the first place until it was pigeonholed into an existing, popular series. G Gundam certainly wouldn't have been made back in 1994 if they didn't have the Gundam name attached to the show. Like-wise "Arjuna with Bird People". The transforming Valks were just what Kawamori needed to sell the show.

[motley]

G gundam is really a special case. it represents the point where bandai went from being the primary merchandiser of the franchise to owning the franchise and scaring off all the old help. it was the first time a gundam show was done without the input of the original director, tomimo. its also the beginning of the now standard "multiple hero gundams at one time" more merchandising friendly stance of the show, that has been a hallmark of the AU shows. this is not neccesarily bad, but i think it can be argued that its not a move for the best. its also the show that gets the most frequent comparisons with macross 7, though i think that's a little misplaced, i think wing is closer, though lacking m7's character development. G gundam is less an attempt at originality, and more an attempt to make a lot of money on bandai's part. its really only the director Imagawa's attempts to sabatoge bandai's plans and turn the show into a parody of bad kung fu movies that the show works at all. here's a fun link.

[KingNor]

First of all, all scientific references of the original Gundam were invented by Studio Nue...

No one said anything about scientific references.

Before Gundam, robots were super robots. After Gundam, robots are real robots.

Without Gundam, your Valkyries would be much more colorful, with wierd crap sticking out all over the place, and Roy, Hikaru, Max, and Millia's Valkyries would combine to form a Super Valkyrie, which then promptly shoots breast missiles at Godzilla.

i don't like these kind of self perpetuating statements.

I don't see any proof that Gundam MADE Macross be more realistic. Just because Gundam came out first, and had all the flashy crap, in no way means that Macross was made the way it was BECAUSE of Gundam.

I'm assuming that you're implying that because Gundam didn't go the "getter robo" rout with the super strong inexplicable robots that all anime's that protray their mecha realisticly somehow hold aleigence to Gundam for showing them a diffrent way to do things.

You're basicly forcing people to accept gundam as some kind of saving grace for Macross, and anyone who doesn't agree is put in the situation to "prove a negative" in that they'd have to prove that had Gundam never existed, Macross would be the same. which is impossible.

that's slopy reasoning. If you want to say Macross would have had wacky space ships and campy "combine to form voltron" mecha, then prove it some how. show an early model sheet of valks becomeing a super valk. show some interview with a creator saying "at first, valkyries were going to combine to form 'Vazoolo' the super robot."

don't just state it as fact, i hate that crap.

Edited July 10, 2004 by KingNor

[motley]

i don't like these kind of self perpetuating statements.

I don't see any proof that Gundam MADE Macross be more realistic.  Just because Gundam came out first, and had all the flashy crap, in no way means that Macross was made the way it was BECAUSE of Gundam.

I'm assuming that you're implying that because Gundam didn't go the "getter robo" rout with the super strong inexplicable robots that all anime's that protray their mecha that way somehow hold aleigence to Gundam for showing them a diffrent way to do things.

You're basicly forcing people to accept gundam as  some kind of saving grace for Macross, and anyone who doesn't agree is put in the situation to "prove a negative" in that they'd have to prove that had Gundam never existed, Macross would be the same. which is impossible.

that's slopy reasoning.  If you want to say Macross would have had wacky space ships and campy "combine to form voltron" mecha, then prove it some how.  show an early model sheet of valks becomeing a super valk.  show some interview with a creator saying "at first, valkyries were going to combine to form 'Vazoolo' the super robot."

don't just state it as fact, i hate that crap.

well the reason statements like "gundam made macross realistic" get made is that gundam is credited as the first realistic robot show. admittedly its not the most realistic, but it started the trend. and not just because of the story line. the failure of the original gundam toy line caused the Clover toy company to go out of business, and the success of bandai's gundam plastic model line lead to massive changes in the way robot shows were made. gundam, and the huge success of robot models are also largely credited with the crash of the japanese toy industry in the early 80's.

macross, as a member of the realistic robot genre, therefore owes a great deal of its existance to Gundam. and more when we learn that kawamori and friends were huge gundam fans, and some elements of the early parody show macross almost was, are drawn heavily from gundam. heck our favorite Roy Focker started out as a parody of a character from gundam, Sleggar Law. that said, macross is just as much an influential show as gundam. we can largely tie the success of any transforming robot show (especially Transformers) from the mid 1980's on to macross. there were transforming robots before macross, but macross really changed the genre. you can even credit macross with all the transforming MS in the first gundam sequel, Zeta. its all circular.

now, i'm not saying anyone has to like gundam, far from it, your tastes are your own. but you do need to understand why gundam is seen as such an important show to macross, though it may not be obvious just in watching them both.

edit-i'll also note that we're really starting to get off topic here.

Edited July 10, 2004 by motley

[Stamen0083]

EDIT: Long, lengthy flamebait post removed.

Motley has put what I said into layman's terms, so everyone can understand it. In case you missed it:

now, i'm not saying anyone has to like gundam, far from it, your tastes are your own. but you do need to understand why gundam is seen as such an important show to macross, though it may not be obvious just in watching them both.

In other words, you don't have to like it, but you have to acknowledge its revolutionary status.

PS: I don't think this is off topic. This explains why Gundam is so popular. The old timers recognized the change, they embrace it, and 25 years later, they still like it.

PPS: This is Macross World. Someone surely must have seen that picture of the Valkyrie design that Kawamori first came up with?

Edited July 10, 2004 by Stamen0083

[KingNor]

personally i'm with grahm i dont' really get why gundam is so popular...

thanks for the info motley:

i'm not so much contesting that gundam was or wasn't inflewential in macross, i'm just saying that stating as such, with out really proving or backing up anything is sloppy.

i didn't know kawamori was a GD fan. intresting.

i dont' think i'll ever like Gundam though, giant robots designed to fight other giant robots just isn't something i find intresting. Macross and Eva are pretty much the only giant mecha franchises i like. and neither the Eva's nor the Valkyries were designed to fight other robots, but to fight big aliens/angel thingys. (btw i do lump robot jox in with giant robot movies i don't like hehehehe)

now i'm just rambleing.

[Stamen0083]

i'm not so much contesting that gundam was or wasn't inflewential in macross, i'm just saying that stating as such, with out really proving or backing up anything is sloppy.

I assumed that I'd let history back me up.

It's a fact that Gundam was the first real robot show. It's a fact that Gundam started the real robot genre. If facts aren't enough to back up what I'm saying, what would be?

[Californium]

PPS: This is Macross World. Someone surely must have seen that picture of the Valkyrie design that Kawamori first came up with?

Actually, I don't think I have. Can you post it? Does it look rather RX-78ish?

[Stamen0083]

Actually, I don't think I have. Can you post it? Does it look rather RX-78ish?

No, actually, it doesn't look RX-78-ish, but it did look nothing like a flyable plane.

I should have mentioned that I don't have the picture and was hoping someone here who does would post it.

[ewilen]

Here are pictures of a few iterations of the Valk prototypes.

http://www.yellowlightman.com/macross/features/megaroad/

And a tip o' the hat to our yellowlightman!

[KingNor]

Here are pictures of a few iterations of the Valk prototypes.

http://www.yellowlightman.com/macross/features/megaroad/

And a tip o' the hat to our yellowlightman!

thanks man, thats the kind of source and refrence material i was talkin about

[Stamen0083]

thats the kind of source and refrence material i was talkin about

Then you are happy with my explanation?

[Californium]

great link. Anyone else reminded of those starship trooper suits when they see the "flight suit" in bot mode? (especially the arms and head...)

[KingNor]

dunno, i don't remember power suits in Starship Troopers ( or as i like to call it, Captain Jawbone and the Funky Bunch)

i'm glad they eventually went with fighters and stayed away from the power suit design, i'm not a huge fan of power suits.

i'm a little confused by this whole Megaroad buisness... isn't that the name of the ship rick and misa flew into a black hole or something? i guess thats a question for the newbie thread though, nevermind.

[Aegis!]

Gundam used to be revolutionary, until they started with this alternate universe bullshit. Now it's just a marketing gimmick.

Gundam is popular for a reason. It used to be about the story, not the models, toys, and the shitload of merchandise that goes along with every new Gundam release.

If you don't see it, then too bad, but no one is forcing you to like it. Gundam fans just want you to acknowledge that without Gundam, Macross would not be the same Macross as you know it today.

What I don´t get though is how can Gundam be that popular now if true fans acknowledge the fact that it´s no longer the same revolutionary gundam it once was.

If people know Gundam is NOW all about the merchandise and little about new plots or more original characters why do they keep suppporting it and buying all the models and toys and whatnot ?

I´m not a Gundam hater but I do think Gundam has lost merits along the years for allowing the franchise go too pop-culture orientated and not exploring more of what was seen in the UC line.

I can stand the repetitive mecha designs but the lack of interest in exploring new themes and plots is just overwhelming.

[Jolly Rogers]

It's popular because Bandai is doing a multi-pronged approach to merchandising. Even if the new shows tend to suck most of the time, they are coming out with new products that appeal to fans of the older shows, basically milking all the goodwill they could besides suckering the kids with products from the newer shows. It's basically like Lucas and Hasbro. Star Wars toys still sell because people like the toys from the original trilogy, even if most agree the prequels sucked donkey balls.

[motley]

What I don´t get though is how can Gundam be that popular now if true fans acknowledge the fact that it´s no longer the same revolutionary gundam it once was.

If people know Gundam is NOW all about the merchandise and little about new plots or more original characters why do they keep suppporting it and buying all the models and toys and whatnot ?

I´m not a Gundam hater but I do think Gundam has lost merits along the years for allowing the franchise go too pop-culture orientated and not exploring more of what was seen in the UC line.

I can stand the repetitive mecha designs but the lack of interest in exploring new themes and plots is just overwhelming.

ah, there's the crux of the issue. speaking for myself, i take each series more or less on its own merits, so i'm while eagerly awaiting a region 1 release of gundam Zeta DVDs, i could care less about the upcoming sequel to gundam SEED. i have passing interest in a couple of the AU shows, but for the most part i'm only interested in the UC stuff. and bandai, being the smart merchandisers they are, realises that there are fans like me, and that we're also usually older and have much higher spending limits, than the average new fan, or fans of the newer AU shows, so the majority of the high end merchandise is UC only.

the old gundam shows maintain their popularity in the same way that the macross shows pre-macross 7 retain their individual popularity, even though M7's popularity is less than universal. there's also the perpetual hope inherent to any fanbase that the next show is going to give them what they want, despite repeated failures. look at star trek, or star wars, or baseball. gundam fans have a lot in common with red sox fans, we have faith in the franchise, but it just doesn't seem to pay off very often.

[KingNor]

...baseball. gundam fans have a lot in common with red sox fans, we have faith in the franchise, but it just doesn't seem to pay off very often.

omg i NEVER thought about it that way.

well... i guess if you think of baseball or any sport as a TV show, yeah. the plot only has three outcomes, the heros win, the villans win or they break even.

kinda seems hard to complain about tv serise plot lines now that i think about the popularity of professional sports!

dang, way to ruin the fun!!!

[ewilen]

dunno, i don't remember power suits in Starship Troopers ( or as i like to call it, Captain Jawbone and the Funky Bunch)

i'm glad they eventually went with fighters and stayed away from the power suit design, i'm not a huge fan of power suits.

i'm a little confused by this whole Megaroad buisness... isn't that the name of the ship rick and misa flew into a black hole or something?  i guess thats a question for the newbie thread though, nevermind.

I think he's talking about the Japanese anime version of Starship Troopers, for which Studio Nue did the designs. (A very similar powered suit also appears in one of the Daicon videos.)

As for Megaroad..."Battle City Megaroad" was the name of the original project that became Macross. Then after SDF Macross and DYRL, they named the SDF-2 the "Megaroad" just to confuse you. Read The Macross That Might Have Been, by Egan Loo, and all will be clear(er).

Miscellaneous note of relevance to this discussion: as Egan mentions in the Animeigo liner notes ( http://www.animeigo.com/Liner/MACROSS.t ),

After dealing with the first wave of fighter pods, Major Focker radios "Skull Leader to Gunsight One." Gunsight, besides being the tactical call-sign for the bridge of the SDF-1 Macross, also was the fanzine title of the Gundam fan club that creator Kawamori Shoji, character designer Mikimoto Haruhiko, and writer Oonogi Hiroshi (Members #1, #2, and #3) founded while at Keio University.

Edited July 12, 2004 by ewilen

[motley]

...baseball.  gundam fans have a lot in common with red sox fans, we have faith in the franchise, but it just doesn't seem to pay off very often.

omg i NEVER thought about it that way.

well... i guess if you think of baseball or any sport as a TV show, yeah. the plot only has three outcomes, the heros win, the villans win or they break even.

kinda seems hard to complain about tv serise plot lines now that i think about the popularity of professional sports!

dang, way to ruin the fun!!!

well fandom is pretty much fandom, whether is sports or sci-fi, dog shows or soap operas, take your pick. obssession seems to be a fundamental human trait. the only difference between the extreme sports fan and the extreme baseball fan is the social acceptability, they both obssess over little bits of seemingly useless trivia, and they're both likely to place emphasis on their obssession over human interaction.

[ewilen]

Good, someone said Macross and Macross 7 were the old good "war is bad" and then you suggest a series whose only difference from the former is that the most distinctive elements of the franchise are removed.

How preventing something becoming stale just making it run-of-the-mill.

FV

I'm simply stating that unless a series under goes some drastic change, no matter what it's only a matter of time before it reaches some point where people will start complaining that something has already been done before. Am I wrong? We have the Gundam example here, The Simpson's is also a good example, so are the countless sitcoms out there.

If Macross were to follow the same formula that SDF and Macross 7 follow, with an arrogent Earth government, and some alien race suseptible to culture shock, for the next few sequels. It won't be long before people complain about repetetiveness.

He's saying that if you take out the distinctive Macross elements (whatever they may be--idol singers save the world, love triangles, antimilitarism) in an effort to avoid being stale, you're just going to turn Macross into a run-of-the-mill show.

I can't say I agree with either of you. As I wrote earlier in the thread, I think it's possible to retain key themes and background elements without recycling plot elements. Also, unlike a traditional sitcom, if you wish you can allow the background to develop and change even though you keep each story more-or-less self-contained. Examples: Harry Potter (I think--haven't been exposed to enough to be able to tell for sure); many superhero movies; some other book series such as "The Black Stallion" and "The Black Tiger" (O'Connor).

[Final Vegeta]

I think we have discovered what we wanted to know. Let's say that everyone has its ideal dream of what an anime should be. For some (lot of) people it's Gundam. Actually, it doesn't matter the name it's Gundam. It's just that the original Gundam delivered something similar that "perfect" anime for those persons, so the name Gundam is the safest bet to finally get that perfect anime.

For me obviously it's the same: Kawamori makes what I could think of as a perfect anime. Not Macross, but Kawamori. I am not talking about singing.

The only thing I don't do is demanding other franchises do a Kawamori anime. Well, actually they could do it, since I am talking about style more than story, and that would allow some originality. The opposite (recicling a story) would irk me.

Just a note: it's strange but I thought the out of sequence anime in Macross franchise was supposed to be Macross 7, not Macross Plus

Stamen0083, there is still some other ispiration Studio Nue could draw from, mainly a set of illustrations they drew for a certain book.

http://www.ex.org/4.1/33-book_g2.html

Note who wrote this article, and note where Studio Nue is quoted.

As influential Gundam was, if there weren't Studio Nue, it would had still been a SR show, without any Minowsky particles (which was at least an attempt at justifying giant robots) or space colonies (besides, it wouldn't have its scriptwriter). Maybe the baddies would have had a base on the moon like the Vegans in Grendizer. And as much as Macross aknowledged its ispirations, even Gundam did. The Guncannon looks a lot like a Heinlein's power armor. Also, the Ball and the mono-eye were taken from 2001 A Space Odissey. There are even minor references like the Guntank taken from the Getter 3 and the G-Bull taken from the Daitank. Also there was a touch of Kurosawa (while the energy swords were taken from Star Wars).

Even without Gundam Gloval would have still yelled "Macross Attack" in the biggest climax of Macross If Macross' authors were able to laugh at this it was not because of Gundam.

And yes, people could say Roy was taken from Sleggar (though blond American is a Japanese stereotype, and Roy was somewhat parodic in the role of a Sleggar clone). In fact Max in its first sktches looked a lot like Kai Shinden. Actually, Macross did (or tried to do) this thing rather systematically. You could say what Macross invented was the reference anime, a genre made famous mostly by Gainax works like Gunbuster and Evangelion.

Now, talking about revolutions of anime. I am sure you know what the four revolutions are, but maybe not why. This is usually misunderstood. It was not really a matter of "realism" in technology presented or animation tecniques (while they were relevant to a degree though), it was mostly a matter of mentality.

I know little of Yamato, but I think recalling the main character, Kodai, at first was investigating on captain Okita to see if he actually led to death his brother. This question was quickly resolved and then Kodai trusted Okita. I think somewhere Okita dies and Kodai replaces him. This is a generational passage without conflict. They are Japaneses fighting against symbolical Nazis and Americans.

In Gundam, as I said, the hero was a new generation while the villains were the old one who fought the war. The whole point of "gray" in Gundam is something that should be analized more deeply, anyway the old generation was not necessarily seen as bad (they were still Japaneses in disguise after all). At the end the conflict resolved in a symbolical draw (Side 3 kept existing), even though parental bonds were broken: the RX-78 that tied Amuro to his father was destroyed.

In Macross the warmonger Bodolza and military on both sides are annihilated by nuclear weapons. The old Earth itself was destroyed. What was left was a secluded new world (the city inside Macross), and people didn't really regret it. The generation presented in Macross chose to really cut all connections with the older generations and the outside world. This new generation was composed of otaku with their new set of valors like idols (which was a symbol of the whole world of entertainment) replacing old valors of samurai and Confucianism. This is true especially with DYRL?, that some critics matched with Uruseiyatsura's Beautiful Dreamer as for atmosphere.

Aside from this there is still the matter of relations with the opposite sex. In Yamato and in Gundam girls were like spiritual guides. Macross made them fleshy and nextdoor, they could be kissed.

What I mean with this is not that authors chose to portray these things totally deliberately, but as directors they couldn't avoid to reflect their own view of the world in their shows. This is not an arguement of superiority, just some cultural background.

From this you can see it takes a new person to do a revolution, because a change in mentality is needed. Also, you can see that sequels, prequels or spin-offs are really not likely to bear the same spirit of the original, except the old series of Yamato. Nowadays WWII in Japan is almost forgotten; Evangelion, like the anime in the 90ies, doesn't have real direct references to WWII anymore (the key is poverty). The Impact is only a faint memory of the bombs.

Macross caught up with the times. The Alles interview with Kawamori explains quite well the thoughts behind Macross Plus and Macross 7. Obviously you should always remember it is a Japanese point of view on Japan. The relevance is limited for country other than Japan. For Macross Zero it's the same, only that now Kawamori has had other thoughts.

ewilen: with this in mind, you could agree the relevance of the actual story is less important than the mind behind it, even if from a fan POV you are still right. It should be noted that Kawamori himself stated that Macross 7 what the series most similar to the original.

Now, you got me wrong. I was trying to say something similar to your words.

First of all, the pacifism in Macross 7 was dued to how director Amino read Macross. From Kawamori's side, in the famous interview above he said he felt Japan was brainwashed into finding an enemy to blame. What Kawamori thought was indeed portrayed in the show, among the other things. Kawamori surely knew the complaints about Macross 7 before they were made, but most of it is Amino's fault. Anyway, antimilitarism is not really a Macross' element (I mean in Macross as a whole), it's simply Japanese culture.

Indeed, you should distinguish things that simply look good (ie: the lead character cares for human life in all its forms) and anyway are a staple of Kawamori.

The key elements of Macross are three, and I think you know them. Anyway, since you talked about Harry Potter, Harry Potter has some steady plot elements: no matter how things ended in the last book, the beginning is always bad for Harry. Also, the Dursleys, Snape and Malfoy will always be jerks. At the end Griffindor wins the competition between the houses and the teacher of defence against dark arts is substituted.

You can't touch Macross' love triangles or songs. Macross is kinda a "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" in its formula. It must be kept that way.

FV

[ewilen]

FV, as usual, you've posted a thought-provoking article, if a bit hard to understand.

BTW, the the Alles interview can still be found at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ex.../kawamori1.html even though the original URL no longer works.

ewilen: with this in mind, you could agree the relevance of the actual story is less important than the mind behind it, even if from a fan POV you are still right. It should be noted that Kawamori himself stated that Macross 7 what the series most similar to the original.

I'm handicapped by having only seen the first 12 or so episodes of M7; there's also the question (again) of "similar how?" Setting, storyline, theme, treatment...? I'm guessing all of the above. I.e.,

• Setting: Interstellar War; city inside a huge space ship
  
• Storyline: Music proves key to resolving alien/human conflict (?); love triangle
  
• Theme: Culture, Destructiveness of War (?)
  
• Treatment: TV series, Mikimoto designs, juvenile appeal
  

Now, the other part...I think you're saying that Kawamori's ideas and artistic fingerprint are more important than the "Macross universe". Kawamori certainly may feel this way--I seem to recall reading that he didn't originally intend to set M+ in the Macross universe; he only did so because it made it easier to get backing for the project. I get a general impression that Kawamori is less interested in creating a continuous epic, or even exploring/expanding his "world", than in using it as a convenient backdrop for certain stories he happens to feel like telling. That's fine, but if that's really what's going on, then in a sense there's no such thing as "Macross"--it's just Kawamori. There's nothing to argue one way or another about how the Macross universe could or should be developed.

This isn't to say that Kawamori is dispensable, any more than you could have Middle Earth without Tolkien. (Substitute Dune/Herbert, etc. Although Leiber allowed other writers to use his Lankhmar, with good results and no doubts about "canonicity".) What I'm saying is that unless Kawamori creates stories that connect meaningfully to his world, he's using "Macross" as little more than a pen name.

Anyway, antimilitarism is not really a Macross' element (I mean in Macross as a whole), it's simply Japanese culture.

I'll take your word for it. I see a particular kind of antimilitarism portrayed via stick-in-the-mud characters like the UN Spacy leaders, Bodolza, the relief fleet in Mospeada, and the supreme commander in Southern Cross--people who believe that "the only language the enemy understands" (or "the only solution") is force. There's also a good bit of it in Nausicaa. It's not unique to Macross. But I don't recall seeing it in, say, Nadia. There are plenty of anime where the bad guys really are bad guys, and the solution is violence. So if antimilitarism isn't an identifying characteristic of Macross, I still think it's a category that Macross falls into as distinct from other anime.

The key elements of Macross are three, and I think you know them.

Are you being mysterious or is that a typo What are the three key elements? Love triangles, songs, and transforming airplanes? That's what we see in all the promotional art, isn't it?

But are they indispensable? Maybe it's a cultural thing--that is, maybe the sameness of the Gundam stories (or all the Super Sentai shows) is more acceptable in Japan. Or rather, maybe the Japanese are more tuned to the differences that non-Japanese viewers don't pick up on. Perhaps the Japanese would consider a lot of American/Western forms of popular entertainment repetitive.

But speaking as non-Japanese me, I regard the love triangle as a plot point, not as a theme. It doesn't become more meaningful through repetition, and its reappearance again and again seems forced. Perhaps the formula is so ingrained in Japanese culture (is it?) that it's no more obtrusive than boy-meets-girl-boy-loses-girl-boy-gets-girl. But to me, after a point, it just feels recycled.

Music is problematic in that it's hard to create new stories with music-as-the-key-to-everything, since it should rapidly dawn on the characters that music is indeed the key to everything; therefore, the fact that music is the key to everything should not be a surprise midway through the story. I'm guessing M7 gets away with it by expanding the nature and mechanism of how music works; M+ comes up with a completely novel complication involving music. I think M0 actually decentralizes music slightly by showing it more as an expression of Mayan spirituality than as a thing in itself. A wise move, in my opinion.

Anyway, since you talked about Harry Potter, Harry Potter has some steady plot elements: no matter how things ended in the last book, the beginning is always bad for Harry. Also, the Dursleys, Snape and Malfoy will always be jerks. At the end Griffindor wins the competition between the houses and the teacher of defence against dark arts is substituted.

Ah, thanks. I haven't read the stories and lost interest partway through the first movie, so I only caughts bits after that while my wife was watching Sorcer's Stone and Chamber of Secrets.

[ewilen]

About the key aspects of Macross...

http://www.macrossworld.com/macross/transl...cedvalkyrie.htm

SK: Having directed last year's Macross movie, I'd pretty much done all that I'd wanted to do with Macross. So Advanced Valkyrie isn't a sequel to Macross.

Macross is a conglomeration of three aspects: the use of music, the use of characters, and mechanics.

Which basically confirms that SK sees things pretty much the way some of us do.

[Final Vegeta]

FV, as usual, you've posted a thought-provoking article, if a bit hard to understand.

My English skills make me worry for intelligibility ^^;

[*]Theme: Culture, Destructiveness of War (?)

Actually, there isn't a culture theme in Macross 7, and neither in Macross Plus. Culture came back only with Macross Zero.

Anyway, there is a rumour about Macross 7 being made with materials cut from the original series. From this POV, it is easy to think that as a stand alone series in itself it sounds like a reharsh.

Now, the other part...I think you're saying that Kawamori's ideas and artistic fingerprint are more important than the "Macross universe". Kawamori certainly may feel this way--I seem to recall reading that he didn't originally intend to set M+ in the Macross universe; he only did so because it made it easier to get backing for the project. I get a general impression that Kawamori is less interested in creating a continuous epic, or even exploring/expanding his "world", than in using it as a convenient backdrop for certain stories he happens to feel like telling. That's fine, but if that's really what's going on, then in a sense there's no such thing as "Macross"--it's just Kawamori. There's nothing to argue one way or another about how the Macross universe could or should be developed.

Exactly. I, for one, am not a fan of Macross, but a fan of Kawamori. I dislike Macross II (while it being a rip-off of a great work, it simply sucks). I like Macross 7 for what I feel is belonging to Kawamori, mainly in its positive spirit and a special weirdness. Not all things of Macross 7 seem to come from Kawamori, though.

Anyway, even Z/ZZ Gundam was not supposed to be Gundam. Tomino himself admitted Gundam was the worst case of a name used to sold products.

What I'm saying is that unless Kawamori creates stories that connect meaningfully to his world, he's using "Macross" as little more than a pen name.

That's it. His mind lives in real world, not in Macross. He chose not to become an otaku.

While it's fun making fan suppositions, sometimes the suppositions here seem meaningless. Kawamori is not selling you a RPG, and knowing ships' names won't help you understand the shows better. He won't create a fictional world where you could live, he will just share some fun with you.

To explain the concept, I would take the scene of the concert in Macross Plus where Isamu glances audience in trance. People there surely were having fun, but how weird they looked.

I'll take your word for it. I see a particular kind of antimilitarism portrayed via stick-in-the-mud characters like the UN Spacy leaders, Bodolza, the relief fleet in Mospeada, and the supreme commander in Southern Cross--people who believe that "the only language the enemy understands" (or "the only solution") is force. There's also a good bit of it in Nausicaa. It's not unique to Macross. But I don't recall seeing it in, say, Nadia. There are plenty of anime where the bad guys really are bad guys, and the solution is violence. So if antimilitarism isn't an identifying characteristic of Macross, I still think it's a category that Macross falls into as distinct from other anime.

Macross Plus and Macross Zero are not really anti-militaristic, though. Obviously that doesn't mean the opposite, that they are really militaristic.

In Nadia the good guys are not soldiers, but free men. The only real military were the battleships chasing Nautilus, and they didn't look totally good. In Laputa there was military, and a fat general universally means greed.

Overall I could agree this thing in anime spread from Macross. Maybe character like Vash the Stampede came from Basara. Also in Full Metal Panic there were these mercenaries who should have fought for money but in fact they wanted to save the world (no surprise, I feel influences from FFVIII and Gundam Wing), so while they have mecha they still look good to audience.

I could grant you Kawamori has a fetish for non-lethal weapons, though.

Anyway, I've heard even what Tomino thinks. At the end, Gundam is being dubbed in Italian. The head of the concern who purchased the rights is keeping a blog of how translations are going, and he keeps asking Tomino questions about how he should translate it and, more importantly, what Tomino do thinks of Gundam. Tomino said that Gundam is a comics-like fiction story which someone started to call "the first realistic robot anime" turning over its sense, mis-meaning it as a war or military series. This is absolutely false because they loathe everything which is war, army and sci-fi. Military ranks were meant only in a evocative way to give authority to characters. Char gets promoted only because dubbers were having troubles saying "Sha shosa". You would never had thought that way, wouldn't you?

Also as a moral "characters cannot win with strength alone" is another Japanese thing. I think I've heard it was mentioned even in Z Gundam near the end. Kawamori added some poetry to the concept, and I think he is still unmatched in this.

Are you being mysterious or is that a typo What are the three key elements? Love triangles, songs, and transforming airplanes? That's what we see in all the promotional art, isn't it?

Yes, they are these.

Excuse me, what could the typo be? Just curious. It's not that much since I've learned "mecha" and "anime" don't have plural in English.

But are they indispensable? Maybe it's a cultural thing--that is, maybe the sameness of the Gundam stories (or all the Super Sentai shows) is more acceptable in Japan. Or rather, maybe the Japanese are more tuned to the differences that non-Japanese viewers don't pick up on. Perhaps the Japanese would consider a lot of American/Western forms of popular entertainment repetitive.

Sometimes I think these same things. After all, an author who has to work six months to a year for a TV series should have to listen to the same BGMs over and over again to see if they matched the scene. That would annoy me, but a professional needs to be consistent.

Anyway, some Japanese shows like Detective Conan are simply time killers. They have the same plot each time because so you don't need to have watched every episode come before.

But speaking as non-Japanese me, I regard the love triangle as a plot point, not as a theme. It doesn't become more meaningful through repetition, and its reappearance again and again seems forced. Perhaps the formula is so ingrained in Japanese culture (is it?) that it's no more obtrusive than boy-meets-girl-boy-loses-girl-boy-gets-girl. But to me, after a point, it just feels recycled.

Well, Kawamori tried to did his best to keep it varied. Love triangles are actually a V; changing the lead character from the corner to a tip or switching from female-male-female to male-female-male is the way he tried to do it.

Kawamori puts triangles even in his non-Macross shows like Escaflowne and Arjuna. It belongs to the author's style more than to the franchise Macross.

Indeed, in the original Macross it was done better because it was a real plot twist; Misa was older than Hikaru. In other Macross you just know which character matches best the lead. It's a shame.

Anyway, it's not more a plot point than "mecha must fight another mecha".

Music is problematic in that it's hard to create new stories with music-as-the-key-to-everything, since it should rapidly dawn on the characters that music is indeed the key to everything; therefore, the fact that music is the key to everything should not be a surprise midway through the story. I'm guessing M7 gets away with it by expanding the nature and mechanism of how music works; M+ comes up with a completely novel complication involving music. I think M0 actually decentralizes music slightly by showing it more as an expression of Mayan spirituality than as a thing in itself. A wise move, in my opinion.

Macross Zero is the Macross of love. Macross 7 was the Macross of music.

With Kawamori the third theme is used as a "weapon", be it music in Macross or destiny in Escaflowne. It's something weird but original, and I like it. It places more meaning in themes.

Anyway, if you complain only about triangles and music and the repetitive episodes of Macross 7, this is just minor stuff. Not that Macross 7 is not repetitive, but that was not Kawamori's fault.

FV

[ewilen]

His mind lives in real world, not in Macross. He chose not to become an otaku...He won't create a fictional world where you could live...

Expanding the term otaku slightly. No real argument, but I'd point out that "fictional worlds" have been a staple of fantasy and science fiction going back at least to Burroughs (Pellucidar, John Carter) and Howard (Conan), while Tolkien turned it into a sort of explicit theory with his concept of "sub-creation"--all before roleplaying games and (mostly before) SF anime. Since the 60's, though, with RPGs, Trekkies, and Star Wars, yes, I think that "subcreation" and otakudom have merged.

It occurs to me that the phenomenon has older parallels--Cervantes parodied it, for example, in Don Quixote. It's interesting to think that the portrayal of the audience in M+ might refer to otakus, especially in light of some of the things Kawamori says in the Alles interview about the simulation of reality and experience.

Anti-militarism--correct, I'm not saying that Macross expresses hate or distaste for the military. Rather, a common theme or approach in Macross (and some other anime) is the refusal to show violence as the ultimate solution to the conflict, and the refusal to portray an antagonist who is thorougly demonized. That's why I wouldn't put Nadia, Laputa, or Castle of Cagliostro in the same category as Macross. They all have villains who remain stock villains throughout the story; they have to be dealt with by "beating" them.

Char gets promoted only because dubbers were having troubles saying "Sha shosa".

Sorry, I don't fully understand. Translated literally, I assume this would be "Lt. Commander Char" ("Capitano di Corvetta", or "Maggiore" if you go by non-Naval ranks). Are you saying that "Shosa" was chosen essentially as a random officer rank in the original, but in the Italian version his rank is different simply because it sounds better that way in Italian?

Excuse me, what could the typo be?

You wrote, "The key elements of Macross are three, and I think you know them." You may have meant to type "there" instead of "three"; as written, the sentence sounds like you're posing a riddle.

Good points about how the love triangles are varied across series, but I disagree about mecha vs. mecha being a plot point. I suppose it can be, but in anime I would basically say it's part of the setting. It's generally established early in the story--either taken as a given, or explained in the first episode or so. Sometimes there's a good rationale (SDF Macross); in others it's somewhat contrived (SDC Southern Cross). Either way, they usually get it over with quickly and then move on to the real story. If anything I'd say that superhero movies suffer a greater problem, since they tend to dwell on hero and villain origins, which are nearly all essentially the same.

[Wabbit]

It's the use of basic colors on the rather ugly mechs. The more cheesier, the better. Give it a sword and you have a winner.

I never understood that. Why do people like these ugly robots with 'shoot me, I am here' colors.

[Protoplast]

Gundam is popular in Japan not just the mecha but the storyline is similar to feudal Japan's political situation in the old days, War lords and Samurais are just like all the Neo Zeon commanders, they fight for honor and for cause, many Bushido rules are preached by Char.

This is why people of all ages in Japan follow Gundam..

Macross doesn't interest Japanese enough because they feel the mechas are cool but a bit boring since they only transform from fighter to robot which many many other robot anime series can do like the Transformers, it is not as cool. The storyline of macross, does not have enough complexity.. I'm not a huge huge fan of Macross, I like the way Macross is unique that it has many different types of stories like Plus, Mac7, and DYRL. The problem with this is that the different stories divides audiences. Some like Mac Plus, some hate it..

Gundam stories are mostly the same, generic, just like Final Fantasy marqee.. it can get boring and repetitive but the general public in Japan dig the Samurai like Gundam mechas.. Gundam RX-78 looks like a colorful Samurai..

[bsu legato]

My only thought is that if Double Zeta can't kill Gundam's popularity, then nothing can.