Popularity of Gundam

[Beltane70]

I've been a fan of Gundam for almost as long as I've been an anime fan. Yes, a lot of the stoyy lines have been recycled, but that has never stopped me from enjoying most of the new Gundam shows that have come out over the years.

I always find it interesting to see how they are going to retell a story we are all familiar with. As I said on another message board, most of the AU series are different enough from the originals to be fully enjoyable. Maybe this just means that I'm stupid, I don't know.

[eugimon]

Minovksy particles only blocks a small range of the IR spectrum. It's most effective against radar. There's still a fair bit of IR that it can't cover.

If Minovsky particles can't block a Mobile Suit's heat signature, then I wonder why IR homing (heat seeking) missiles are not used in the Gundam universe?

Graham

my question is... since these guys can generate these minovsky particles, they must have some way of detecting them as well... so why don't they just use area saturation fire whenever large densities of these particles are detected?

[eugimon]

But for realisms sake, I still would have prefered the RX-79G to be camoflaged. I mean an 18m tall red white and blue robot does tend to be a bit obvious in Jungle or desert warfare 

No amount of camo is gonna hide a 18 meter tall mobile suit. Trust me on that.

http://www.globalatlantic.com/janes2.html

under the right conditions, very large things can be made very hard to see... I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to camo a mech... at least break up the lines so that it's not so easy to make out the various bits and pieces on one of these things.

[Stamen0083]

my question is... since these guys can generate these minovsky particles, they must have some way of detecting them as well... so why don't they just use area saturation fire whenever large densities of these particles are detected?

The same reason you don't use area saturation fire whenever you detect ECM being used.

You know something is out there, but you don't know where.

[Sundown]

And according to that page, Minovsky particles themselves aren't detectable... only it's effects are (which at beyond-visual-range, would be the precise effect of nothing being there, like everywhere else you look). Convenient.

-Al

[eugimon]

my question is... since these guys can generate these minovsky particles, they must have some way of detecting them as well... so why don't they just use area saturation fire whenever large densities of these particles are detected?

The same reason you don't use area saturation fire whenever you detect ECM being used.

You know something is out there, but you don't know where.

well no, for several reasons...

we don't saturate areas when an ECM device lights up for several reasons, 2 big ones:

1. it's very expensive to start lobbing that many warheads around.

2. you don't know where the munitions will end up.

however... in the gundam universe, it's obvious that material/weapons costs are not a big factor... in fact, large scale area saturation fire would probably be a great deal more practical in terms of materials and lives than the sort of fighting depicted in the anime.

In space and in all out war, it doesn't really matter where unused munitions end up.

Also, ECM is a type of electromagnetic wave that is sent out to disrupt other electromagnetic waves.. like radio. it disrupts the signal adds noise, etc.

a particle field has to be generated from somewhere... it has a point of origin... as long as the field is being generated there would be no way to have the particles evenly saturated over what is essentially infinite volume (space)... therefore you would have changes in density, from lower to higher the closer you got to the generators.

So... even if area saturation is a bit overkill, one could still make a missile that homed in on the particles and was designed to swim through the field, looking for denser particle areas.

Even if the field itself is invisible... the effects would still be measurable... and really, if the effects are measurable (the website says that large quantities are needed to be effective, which implies that the blocking is less effective at lower saturation) than a missile or other weapon could still be set up to search out areas of greatest effect.

[Stamen0083]

however... in the gundam universe, it's obvious that material/weapons costs are not a big factor... in fact, large scale area saturation fire would probably be a great deal more practical in terms of materials and lives than the sort of fighting depicted in the anime.

Where did you get that idea?

The Earth Federation waste more than enough of Balls and missile ships and GM's that it must put a dent in their pocket. Simply wasting blind shots at maneuvering targets seems unwise.

In space and in all out war, it doesn't really matter where unused munitions end up.

The final destination of physical munitions do matter, especially in scenarios where you're protecting your own space colony, or the other half of your fleet has surrounded his fleet.

The only thing encouraging area saturation is beam weapons, which is plenty in Gundam, but even then, it takes a finite amount of time in between shots, and space is a very big area. By the time the shots get to where the MS used to be, the MS is no longer there.

Saturate a big area in a small amount of time is very difficult, regardless of how big your fleet currently is, especially when taking the sizes of the ships/MS in the fleet and the battlefield.

Also, ECM is a type of electromagnetic wave that is sent out to disrupt other electromagnetic waves.. like radio. it disrupts the signal adds noise, etc.

Its ultimate purpose is to disrupt radar. The Minovsky particles achieve the same effect. Since the end result is similar, the means are irrelevant.

a particle field has to be generated from somewhere... it has a point of origin... as long as the field is being generated there would be no way to have the particles evenly saturated over what is essentially infinite volume (space)... therefore you would have changes in density, from lower to higher the closer you got to the generators.

How can you measure the particle density of something that you can't even sense directly in the first place? Like Sundown correctly pointed out, the particles themselves are undetectable. Only their effect, which is a blind radar.

Even if the field itself is invisible... the effects would still be measurable... and really, if the effects are measurable (the website says that large quantities are needed to be effective, which implies that the blocking is less effective at lower saturation) than a missile or other weapon could still be set up to search out areas of greatest effect.

Indeed, but during a battle, ships rarely ever send out less than enough particles to nullify radar. At such densities, variations of the field strength would be so low that the effect would be negligible.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Stamen0083

[eugimon]

however... in the gundam universe, it's obvious that material/weapons costs are not a big factor... in fact, large scale area saturation fire would probably be a great deal more practical in terms of materials and lives than the sort of fighting depicted in the anime.

Where did you get that idea?

The Earth Federation waste more than enough of Balls and missile ships and GM's that it must put a dent in their pocket. Simply wasting blind shots at maneuvering targets seems unwise.

Honestly, the fact that they (both sides) can still field armies of what must be expensive MS, send waves of carriers into space. They do not fight like, nor use tatcits that would suggest that material cost is a major factor.

And, historically, area saturation fire has always been used... it is not expensive... modern smart weapons are much much more expensive.

In space and in all out war, it doesn't really matter where unused munitions end up.

The final destination of physical munitions do matter, especially in scenarios where you're protecting your own space colony, or the other half of your fleet has surrounded his fleet.

The only thing encouraging area saturation is beam weapons, which is plenty in Gundam, but even then, it takes a finite amount of time in between shots, and space is a very big area. By the time the shots get to where the MS used to be, the MS is no longer there.

Saturate a big area in a small amount of time is very difficult, regardless of how big your fleet currently is, especially when taking the sizes of the ships/MS in the fleet and the battlefield.

completely not true... in space, where gravity and friction are not an issue, unused ballistic rounds will simply travel on forever... no diferent from the incredible clouds of shrapnel that would already be generated during any of their numerous engagements.

Area saturation, even against ghost targets has already been proven useful in the Iraqi theater. Iraqis were told to fire straight into the air when aircraft was known to be flying overhead, this sort of heavy indisicriminate small arms fire was a very real threat, forcing apaches to significantly alter tactics.

And yes, space is nearly inifnitely large, however, a staging area is not. An attack force, is not. MS units still lanuch from a carrier, there are still bottlenecks in deployment. They would still need to cluster together to form effective combat teams. a lone MS would be easy prey, an MS by itself is not an army...

Actually, beam weapons would not be all too useful for area saturation fire... beam weapons have too narrow a focus... and in the gundam univers, take too much time and energy... simple large caliber ballistics, exploding shells, 20th century technology. And yes, gundams are vulnerable to ballistic weaponry.

Also, ECM is a type of electromagnetic wave that is sent out to disrupt other electromagnetic waves.. like radio. it disrupts the signal adds noise, etc.

It's ultimate purpose is to disrupt radar. The Minovsky particles achieve the same effect. Since the end result is similar, the means are irrelevant.

ECM does not block radar. ECM is not active stealth. ECM blocks radio, communications, that sort of thing. it does so by turning orderly packets of information carried along that spectrum into gibberish by adding noise to the order... like static.

Minovsky particles are a physical thing, that blocks radar by enveloping the object you are trying to hide.

a particle field has to be generated from somewhere... it has a point of origin... as long as the field is being generated there would be no way to have the particles evenly saturated over what is essentially infinite volume (space)... therefore you would have changes in density, from lower to higher the closer you got to the generators.

How can you measure the particle density of something that you can't even sense directly in the first place? Like Sundown correctly pointed out, the particles themselves are undetectable. Only their effect, which is a blind radar

simple, actually the chinese figured this out a while back to defeat stealth technology. The chinese used mobile cell phone tech... cell towers broadcast a steady signal to another tower, when a stealth object passes in this area, the resulting hole is where the stealth object is.

For an anti MS use, simple small satelittes masked with the minovsky particles to protect from long range detection, could pepper the theater, continuously broadcasting... once holes appear in the net it would be a simple matter than to fire into the holes. Especially since it's not like wide areas are masked by the effect.

As for a m. particle hunter missile... also very similar.. add radar. the missile is fired, sends out steady pulse, as the radar is more effectively masked, this is where the missile goes.

to be truly invisible, you cannot affect the environment around you.

Even if the field itself is invisible... the effects would still be measurable... and really, if the effects are measurable (the website says that large quantities are needed to be effective, which implies that the blocking is less effective at lower saturation) than a missile or other weapon could still be set up to search out areas of greatest effect.

Indeed, but during a battle, ships rarely ever send out less than enough particles to nullify radar. At such densities, variations of the field strength would be so low that the effect would be negligible.

as long as you're sending out particles, there are changes in density. changes in effect. area saturation doesn't work by getting direct hits... think depth charges and less sniper. a munition shell packed with sub-munitions, fired remotely close (and it would be close, as you said, ships send out enough only to cover themselves). Fire such a round at an area known to be a clusttering of the m. particle effect, and simply pepper the area with munitions. if you want to keep them contained, the sub munitions can be mines.

[nhyone]

One question on Minovsky particles: does it have to be "deployed' actively? How long does it last? Was there any case where battles are fought without the particles?

If there's no Minovsky particles, is Mobile Suit still practical?

[treatment]

Yep, 08MST is one title that manages to avoid every cliche of the Gundam universe, that's probably why I like it as well.

But for realisms sake, I still would have prefered the RX-79G to be camoflaged. I mean an 18m tall red white and blue robot does tend to be a bit obvious in Jungle or desert warfare

Graham

I highly suggest that you take 0080-War in the Pocket a spin since you like 08th MS Team already.

It's only 6-eps and the character designs were by Mikimoto and were really good. The story is much better than 08th-MS Team, actually. Far more emotional and realistic ending.

[tetsujin]

One question on Minovsky particles: does it have to be "deployed' actively? How long does it last? Was there any case where battles are fought without the particles?

If there's no Minovsky particles, is Mobile Suit still practical?

The backstory goes like this: the reactors used by the ships and MS put out the particles in some quantity. To be effective as ECM they need to put out more - so now and then in the original series (or most anything else through CCA) you'll hear them issue orders to broadcast Minovsky particles. I don't know if they fought any MS battles without ECM-level Minovsky particles.

I don't know the specifics beyond that. Frankly, it's just a plot device to make mobile suits, and especially close combat between MS, practical within the context of the story.

If you look at the backstory materials provided with 08th MS Team DVDs and such, they say that the Zeon leaked info about MS development to the federation early on, claiming the units were for construction, and the feddies' reaction was that they were ridiculous large-scale toys. That would seem to indicate that before the use of the particles in warfare was understood, MS were not practical weapons.

The Minovsky premise is rather silly, but it serves an important purpose: it gives us robot animation that looks cool, along with an explanation of why we get that effect. One would expect space combat to take place over very long range - dozens or hundreds of miles. You do see some of that going on in DYRL and some Gundam material, but combat over that kind of range isn't something that can be presented effectively in a TV or movie animation. It's too big. The Minovsky premise brings everything to knive-fight range, so you get things like beam sabers and hand-to-hand combat between robots. In Macross that effect is explained differently: most small units are fast enough that they're hard to hit with long-range beams, and all units are very good at shooting down missiles. Either way, the anime needs a set of rules in place to make humanoid robots and combat within the bounds of the screen work. Gundam's approach just happens to sound more like a bad episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

As for the missile question: you do see more missiles being used in Zeta, ZZ, and CCA.

[tetsujin]

And when I refer to gundam as being samey or forumlaic and cliched I'm not referring to the 'war is bad' theme that pervades much of it but rather smaller issues that seem to be recycled throughout many of the shows, such as: -

• The number of times that we have a blond bad guy, usually wearing a domino mask or helmet to hide his face.
  
• The number of times that the mother and/or father of the main character is the designer of the Gundam.
  
• The number of times that we have an angst-ridden teenage boy with no military or piloting experience become the most kick-ass pilot within the space of a few episodes, without any sort of formal training except maybe flicking through the MS instruction manual for 5 seconds.
  
• The number of times that Okawara recycles his MS designs
  
• The number of times that we have a colony drop or gassing.
  

Many of the above points I've listed are repeated in so many different Gundam shows, that Gundam for the most part losses all credibility and believability with me.

Graham

- True, Gundam does suffer from Char recyclage syndrome. It has ever since F91 or so... I don't count Z and CCA as Char recyclage because it actually was Char, and he wasn't wearing a mask.

- The main character-pilot and his father-robot maker is a very old standard in robot shows. I'm not entirely sure why. Gundam was one of the first shows to turn this premise around a bit (by making Amuro's father very cold, work-obsessed, and making Amuro's use of the Gundam a burden rather than a fun privelege - Zeta sort of repeated that, "but more so") but I don't think any show has really taken this standard to the extreme that Evangelion did. Then there's G Gundam... I think that's the last one. Three instances.

- Well, let's look at that one. There's Amuro, of course, he had a great talent but he was also very clumsy for quite a while. He was also saved by the fact that he had vastly superior hardware at the start of the series. Camille wasn't trained in the military, but he was a mobile suit hobbyist and a skilled fighter. Judau from ZZ... there's no excuse for him, but that's ZZ for you. Quess in CCA was never really all that effective as a pilot... I can't really speak for F91 or V, or Turn A, but 0080, 0083 and 08th didn't feature this phenomenon at all. Seed took this to a whole new level, of course... but I think they explained it pretty well.

- Yeah, Okawara pretty much sucks these days. I love a lot of his older work, the old Gundam designs, the Scopedog, etc... The first half of Seed had some pretty good designs, most of which were not done by Okawara - but really I think Gundam design has been all downhill since after 0083. Izubuchi made some pretty kick-ass designs for 0080 and CCA, though, and there's all kinds of cool stuff in Zeta.

- Well, those are two of the most effective weapons when a large portion of the human population lives in space, and there's a bunch of large, heavy objects orbiting the Earth... though practically speaking it'd take a crazy amount of energy to de-orbit something like that. Orbital drops make for good action-drama, though: once the object's course is set, there's a certain amount of time before impact (which would cause massive damage), and stopping it takes incredible force... so the battlefield has a well-defined scope and goal, as well as a time limit. But when's the last time they used this? Wing? Gundam X maybe? (I haven't seen all of it.) Seed had nukes and superlasers... but no gassing.

[Stamen0083]

completely not true... in space, where gravity and friction are not an issue, unused ballistic rounds will simply travel on forever... no diferent from the incredible clouds of shrapnel that would already be generated during any of their numerous engagements.

Let's say you're on this side, and your teammate is on the other side. You're both closing in on your target in the middle. Would you blindly shoot at your target, hoping that you'll hit it, when you know that your teammate on the other side is just as likely to get hit?

Area saturation, even against ghost targets has already been proven useful in the Iraqi theater. Iraqis were told to fire straight into the air when aircraft was known to be flying overhead, this sort of heavy indisicriminate small arms fire was a very real

threat, forcing apaches to significantly alter tactics.

Apaches fly low and slow. Saturate an area in space is simply unrealistic, because it's too big. Assuming two fleets park right outside the effective range of its MS, then they would be some six kilometers apart. When Apaches are flying six kilometers up and Iraqis are still harassing them with small arms fire, then it would be comparable. Otherwise, it is not.

And yes, space is nearly inifnitely large, however, a staging area is not. An attack force, is not. MS units still lanuch from a carrier, there are still bottlenecks in deployment. They would still need to cluster together to form effective combat teams. a lone MS would be easy prey, an MS by itself is not an army...

The size of an MS or an MS team compared to the size of the battlefield is negligible. The size of a ship, even, is negligible. Assume that the battle area is a sphere six kilometers in diameter, and a fleet of ten Magellan class ships are facing a fleet of ten Gwazine class ships. Using a generous approximation that each ship is a rectangular prism, where each Magellan measures 327 X 102 X 96 meters, and each Gwazine measures 440 X 320 X 103. Logically, of course, the ships would face each other head on to minimize target area, so each Magellan's effective target size is .0098 square kilometers, and each Gwazine's effective target size is .0330 square kilometers. Assuming that each fleet is evenly distributed in a circle two kilometers across (that's a very small circle, compared to the sizes of the ship), the Federation has a 2.623 percent chance of hitting one of the Gwazines, and the Zeon has a .7792 percent chance of hitting one of the Magellans.

Do those odds look good to you?

Actually, beam weapons would not be all too useful for area saturation fire... beam weapons have too narrow a focus... and in the gundam univers, take too much time and energy... simple large caliber ballistics, exploding shells, 20th century technology. And yes, gundams are vulnerable to ballistic weaponry.

In Gundam 0079, they do launch a shitload of missiles and rockets into the opposing fleet, using Public assault ships. They rarely ever hit anything, and they are usually destroyed before they get close enough to launch their missiles.

ECM does not block radar. ECM is not active stealth. ECM blocks radio, communications, that sort of thing.  it does so by turning orderly packets of information carried along that spectrum into gibberish by adding noise to the order... like static.

Radar == Radio detection and ranging. The word "Radio" there should have given you a clue that ECM would disrupt radar, since it works with radio waves. Why would ECM selectively leave out radio waves from radar?

The only way for a radar to defeat ECM is to use enough power to burn through the noisy signal. The same concept applies with Minovsky particles, except the radars they have there aren't nearly powerful enough to do so.

Minovsky particles are a physical thing, that blocks radar by enveloping the object you are trying to hide.

Where did you get that Minovsky particles block radar by enveloping the object? As best as we can tell from screen, they emit EM signals that scrambles radar, just like ECM.

For an anti MS use, simple small satelittes masked with the minovsky particles to protect from long range detection,  could pepper the theater, continuously broadcasting... once holes appear in the net it would be a simple matter than to fire into the holes. Especially since it's not like wide areas are masked by the effect.

What's to stop the MS from destroying the satellites? Your proposal maybe effective for area defense, where they're trying to stop an MS from infiltrating, but by the time Minovsky particles have been broadcast, then they would know something is out there, and the satellite network becomes useless.

to be truly invisible, you cannot affect the environment around you.

Correct. But in a Minovsky particle field, you're not trying to be completely invisible. You're trying to hide yourself behind a huge bubble. The other guys know that you are in there, but they don't know where.

(and it would be close, as you said, ships send out enough only to cover themselves)

No. I said ships rarely ever send out less than enough. More often than not, they send out as much as they can.

Like I said, they do send out a shitload of explosives, but they almost always miss, or the delivery platforms are destroyed by MS fire before they get close enough to damage a ship.

Edited July 8, 2004 by Stamen0083

[tetsujin]

The size of an MS or an MS team compared to the size of the battlefield is negligible. The size of a ship, even, is negligible. Assume that the battle area is a sphere six kilometers in diameter, and a fleet of ten Magellan class ships are facing a fleet of ten Gwazine class ships. Using a generous approximation that each ship is a rectangular prism, where each Magellan measures 327 X 102 X 96 meters, and each Gwazine measures 440 X 320 X 103. Logically, of course, the ships would face each other head on to minimize target area, so each Magellan's effective target size is .0098 square kilometers, and each Gwazine's effective target size is .0330 square kilometers. Assuming that each fleet is evenly distributed in a circle two kilometers across (that's a very small circle, compared to the sizes of the ship), the Federation has a 2.623 percent chance of hitting one of the Gwazines, and the Zeon has a .7792 percent chance of hitting one of the Magellans.

Do those odds look good to you?

I agree with what you're saying about saturation fire being a poor idea in open space, however, there's a flaw in your math. Your odds of hitting are based on single shots. If you have a .7% chance of hitting with one random shot, you have a 50% chance of hitting once with 100 random shots. If your odds of hitting a Gwazine with one random shot is 2.5%, the odds of hitting with 100 random shots climbs to 92%. So with those kinds of engagements, semi-random firing patterns could actually work. If each of the 10 ships on each side has at least two independent turrets, they can go through 100 shots (five each turret) in ten seconds or so.

[David Hingtgen]

simple, actually the chinese figured this out a while back to defeat stealth technology. The chinese used mobile cell phone tech... cell towers broadcast a steady signal to another tower, when a stealth object passes in this area, the resulting hole is where the stealth object is. [/quote

]

Doesn't sound like it'd work to me. If that worked, wouldn't EVERY plane passing through the area mess up the cell signal causing a billion false alarms? Or a tall building in the way? Every plane blocks radio waves from getting through, stealths just toss them back out at very weird angles.

From what I can see, they basically just put receivers all over, and wait for a "bounced" cell signal. Well, have fun trying to pinpoint a plane's location.

Edited July 8, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[eugimon]

simple, actually the chinese figured this out a while back to defeat stealth technology. The chinese used mobile cell phone tech... cell towers broadcast a steady signal to another tower, when a stealth object passes in this area, the resulting hole is where the stealth object is. [/quote

]

Doesn't sound like it'd work to me. If that worked, wouldn't EVERY plane passing through the area mess up the cell signal causing a billion false alarms? Or a tall building in the way? Every plane blocks radio waves from getting through, stealths just toss them back out at very weird angles.

From what I can see, they basically just put receivers all over, and wait for a "bounced" cell signal. Well, have fun trying to pinpoint a plane's location.

from what I rememer, the cell tower detection system would only be used if they knew that stealth planes were coming in... it's not an early warning detection system at all.

[Stamen0083]

I agree with what you're saying about saturation fire being a poor idea in open space, however, there's a flaw in your math.

Indeed, I've always done very, very poorly with probability and statistics.

Your odds of hitting are based on single shots. If you have a .7% chance of hitting with one random shot, you have a 50% chance of hitting once with 100 random shots.  If your odds of hitting a Gwazine with one random shot is 2.5%, the odds of hitting with 100 random shots climbs to 92%.  So with those kinds of engagements, semi-random firing patterns could actually work.  If each of the 10 ships on each side has at least two independent turrets, they can go through 100 shots (five each turret) in ten seconds or so.

You're, of course, talking about shooting one hundred shots simultaneously?

I think I'd be right if the ships didn't maneuver, and each shot was taken one after another.

However, if the ships do maneuver, then after each of the hundred shots, the battlefield essentially resets, with each of the ships probably in a different position, so the hit rate drops again; And we're not talking about just when the ships started to maneuver, so that acceleration times come into play.

There are many things I must take into account. My example is greatly over simplified, but the point remains.

[Graham]

I highly suggest that you take 0080-War in the Pocket a spin since you like 08th MS Team already.

It's only 6-eps and the character designs were by Mikimoto and were really good. The story is much better than 08th-MS Team, actually. Far more emotional and realistic ending.

Been there, done that

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I have watched all UC Gundam. In fact I probably watched 0080 War In The Pocker for the first time about 12 years ago.

I've been watching anime since the 1970s

Graham

[Graham]

Here is link for you Graham.

Minovsky Theory

Ah yes, the all singing, all dancing Minovsky Particle.

• It's a power source (Minovsky fusion reactor).
  
• It's a propulsion and anti-gravity drive (Minovsky Craft & Minovsky Drive).
  
• It has offensive uses (Beam Rifle, Mega Particle Cannon & Beam Saber).
  
• It has defensive uses (I-Field barrier & Beam Shields).
  
• It blocks radar, radio & microware communications and nullifires IR to some extent (Minovsky Effect).
  
• It's makes your tea, brushes your teeth and sings you a lullaby at night
  
• I've also heard that it can cure cancer and AIDS
  

Graham

[Graham]

- True, Gundam does suffer from Char recyclage syndrome.  It has ever since F91 or so...  I don't count Z and CCA as Char recyclage because it actually was Char, and he wasn't wearing a mask.

- The main character-pilot and his father-robot maker is a very old standard in robot shows.  I'm not entirely sure why.  Gundam was one of the first shows to turn this premise around a bit (by making Amuro's father very cold, work-obsessed, and making Amuro's use of the Gundam a burden rather than a fun privelege - Zeta sort of repeated that, "but more so") but I don't think any show has really taken this standard to the extreme that Evangelion did.  Then there's G Gundam...  I think that's the last one.  Three instances.

- Well, let's look at that one.  There's Amuro, of course, he had a great talent but he was also very clumsy for quite a while.  He was also saved by the fact that he had vastly superior hardware at the start of the series.  Camille wasn't trained in the military, but he was a mobile suit hobbyist and a skilled fighter.  Judau from ZZ...  there's no excuse for him, but that's ZZ for you.  Quess in CCA was never really all that effective as a pilot...  I can't really speak for F91 or V, or Turn A, but 0080, 0083 and 08th didn't feature this phenomenon at all.  Seed took this to a whole new level, of course...  but I think they explained it pretty well.

On the subject of recycling, here's my list of the number of Gundam animes where..........

• The main character's mother or father designed the Gundam: MSG, Z, F91 & V = 4 shows.
  
• The main character is an annoying teenage boy with no military experience and/or little or no MS piloting experience, who though a series of bizzare circumstances becomes the pilot of the most advanced prototype Gundam: MSG, Z, ZZ, F91, V & SEED = 6 shows.
  
• The bad guy wears a domino mask or helmet to hid his face: MSG, F91, V, Wing & SEED = 5 shows (I'm only counting Char once for MSG).
  
• The main character's Gundam is destroyed or damaged halfway through the show and he get's a new more powerful version (so Bandai can sell more toys and models ): Z, 0083, V, 08MST, Wing, X & SEED = 7 shows.
  

Please feel free to correct any errors. As I mentioned before, I'm not really that familiar with some AU shows, especially X.

Graham

[Jolly Rogers]

Is Graham trying to pin down a formula that will make a new Macross series popular?

[CID]

Here is my opinion.

When I was kid, living in Korea, I knew what Gundam was, I have never watch the series or Manga , but I just knew that it was popular anime series from Japan.

Cam to the US, very young, Saw the Robotech series, WOW....

Came to know Macross, few years later - DID not watch it until several years ago...

Through out that time, Bandai has promoted Gundam and its related products heavily. Although, I was too cool to watch Anime .

I do not think any other toy have been advertised or promoted heavily as Gundam. Even transformers cannot get close to the amount of money spent by Bandai and its affliates.

Bottom line, Bandai has planted the word "Gundam" into most of the youngsters growing up in Asia, and now the america. Where as other once popular anime are heavily advertised during the time the show is running, but faddes away.

I finally gave in and bought DVD set of GUndam the very first one, few weeks ago. I have only watched few episodes, not not even seen any great fighting seens. However, I do not think it is not even close comparison to DYRL in the story line. Although,it made me think, "So, this is what the GUndam is all about"....

Bottom line, Bandia's formula of advertising Gundam (With various diff. story lines (Series) the way they do, they are bound to be popular or at least make someone thinking about a good Mecha anmie to buy a DVD and try watching it once. Hence, making profit and popularity of Gundam .

[GRAND CANNON]

Just a quick, late, non-technical reply regarding the detection/tracking of a MS (i.e. 08th MS)....

I know these were mentioned: seismic, motion, visual.

But how about audible? Do Suits have microphones for the ability to hear anything within close proximity (i.e. ground troops, support personnel)?

If not, get your suit in position, open the cockpit and listen.

The detection range would probably be further than visual on most occasions. You think a Zaku can tip toe?

(Of course, this would not give you an exact heading from the target and just let you know something was out there,

so use would usually be impractical, but a use nonetheless. )

[Stamen0083]

Just a quick, late, non-technical reply regarding the detection/tracking of a MS (i.e. 08th MS)....

I know these were mentioned: seismic, motion, visual.

But how about audible? Do Suits have microphones for the ability to hear anything within close proximity (i.e. ground troops, support personnel)?

The tracking system in 08th MS Team's truck is acoustical rather than seismic, though I wouldn't rule out having both sensors in the spike package.

They were listening to Zaku footsteps.

[Guppy]

getting back to the original question, me being a toy whore and all, I like the kits first and the anime second.

I had about 5 or 6 kits/toys (I don't know what I saw in MSiA toys) from Zeta ages before I saw the series. The good thing about it being as huge as it is, is that there are so many different mecha designs so even those who aren't fans would dig one or two of the mechas.

Now excuse me while I go back to panel lining my MG Gelgoog.

[GRAND CANNON]

Just a quick, late, non-technical reply regarding the detection/tracking of a MS (i.e. 08th MS)....

I know these were mentioned: seismic, motion, visual.

But how about audible? Do Suits have microphones for the ability to hear anything within close proximity (i.e. ground troops, support personnel)?

The tracking system in 08th MS Team's truck is acoustical rather than seismic, though I wouldn't rule out having both sensors in the spike package.

They were listening to Zaku footsteps.

Yup, aware of that as 08th is my favorite , but what about Mobile Suits in general? Some commander running up to a RX-79[G] or RGM-79[G] and issuing orders, can the pilot here 'em? Or does he have to open up the cockpit?

As far as suits go, you gotta be able to hear them walking around from quite a distance....kind of like AT-ATs.

(Oooh...makes me think OT, but it would be intersting to see a Mobile Suit giving an AT-AT a head-lock!! )

[Druna Skass]

it would be intersting to see a Mobile Suit giving an AT-AT a head-lock!! )

And a noogie...

[eugimon]

completely not true... in space, where gravity and friction are not an issue, unused ballistic rounds will simply travel on forever... no diferent from the incredible clouds of shrapnel that would already be generated during any of their numerous engagements.

Let's say you're on this side, and your teammate is on the other side. You're both closing in on your target in the middle. Would you blindly shoot at your target, hoping that you'll hit it, when you know that your teammate on the other side is just as likely to get hit?

when did I ever say blindly..? the situation I describe has and is as a first attack system once you realize m.particles have been detected in system.

And the situation you describe is laughable... you assume that MS units rate of hit is 100%. Otherwise at anytime during a conflict once the initial line/formations have been changed you will have this situation. Friendly fire always happens.

Area saturation, even against ghost targets has already been proven useful in the Iraqi theater. Iraqis were told to fire straight into the air when aircraft was known to be flying overhead, this sort of heavy indisicriminate small arms fire was a very real

threat, forcing apaches to significantly alter tactics.

Apaches fly low and slow. Saturate an area in space is simply unrealistic, because it's too big. Assuming two fleets park right outside the effective range of its MS, then they would be some six kilometers apart. When Apaches are flying six kilometers up and Iraqis are still harassing them with small arms fire, then it would be comparable. Otherwise, it is not.

Which is it? MS units send out just enough m. particles to cover themselves? or enough to saturate huge areas of space? if they saturate huge areas of space, then I maintain you should be able to map changes in particle density based on the amount of radar or other transmissions able to make it through the cloud.

If they saturate only enough to make individual units/ships invisible, then it's sime, find the diameter of the cloud, saturate area in the middle with ballistics and submunitions.

I didn't realize the gundam ships can move so quickly as to out manuveur high velocity rounds.

the size of an MS or an MS team compared to the size of the battlefield is negligible. The size of a ship, even, is negligible. Assume that the battle area is a sphere six kilometers in diameter, and a fleet of ten Magellan class ships are facing a fleet of ten Gwazine class ships. Using a generous approximation that each ship is a rectangular prism, where each Magellan measures 327 X 102 X 96 meters, and each Gwazine measures 440 X 320 X 103. Logically, of course, the ships would face each other head on to minimize target area, so each Magellan's effective target size is .0098 square kilometers, and each Gwazine's effective target size is .0330 square kilometers. Assuming that each fleet is evenly distributed in a circle two kilometers across (that's a very small circle, compared to the sizes of the ship), the Federation has a 2.623 percent chance of hitting one of the Gwazines, and the Zeon has a .7792 percent chance of hitting one of the Magellans.

well, again, it depends on the field... it's not like you would be firing blindly into space... your firing into areas where nothing shows up. in fact, for my idea to work, the more spread out the better, you would then have distinct area of nothing instead of a globular mass of nothing.

Actually, beam weapons would not be all too useful for area saturation fire... beam weapons have too narrow a focus... and in the gundam univers, take too much time and energy... simple large caliber ballistics, exploding shells, 20th century technology. And yes, gundams are vulnerable to ballistic weaponry.

In Gundam 0079, they do launch a shitload of missiles and rockets into the opposing fleet, using Public assault ships. They rarely ever hit anything, and they are usually destroyed before they get close enough to launch their missiles.

sorry, my bad, forgot in anime small missiles, high velocity missiles are easy to shoot down. and yet, large ponderous mecha never get hit...

Where did you get that Minovsky particles block radar by enveloping the object? As best as we can tell from screen, they emit EM signals that scrambles radar, just like ECM.

yes, they emit signals, yes they still need to envelope the object, that is, there has to be enough of them to be able to overpower the radar beam. same difference.

ECM does not block radar. ECM is not active stealth. ECM blocks radio, communications, that sort of thing. it does so by turning orderly packets of information carried along that spectrum into gibberish by adding noise to the order... like static.

Radar == Radio detection and ranging. The word "Radio" there should have given you a clue that ECM would disrupt radar, since it works with radio waves. Why would ECM selectively leave out radio waves from radar?

The only way for a radar to defeat ECM is to use enough power to burn through the noisy signal. The same concept applies with Minovsky particles, except the radars they have there aren't nearly powerful enough to do so.

I should have been more clear.

ECM does not block radar... it dupes the radar into thinking nothing is there by sending back dummy signals before the actual bounce returns. or by brodcasting flase signals that confuse radar operators.

non of these are the active stealth that you keep discrbing. ECM disrupts our ability to interpret radar... it does nothing about the radar wave itself. Which is why anit-jamming techniques are possible...

Minovsky particles are a physical thing, that blocks radar by enveloping the object you are trying to hide.

Where did you get that Minovsky particles block radar by enveloping the object? As best as we can tell from screen, they emit EM signals that scrambles radar, just like ECM.

got the idea from the website, which says that they block. http://web.archive.org/web/20010605004534/...d/minovsky.html

hmmm, also says it forms lattice work, which means orderly pattern, thuse no density changes... but you should still be able to map the outer surface area and therefore hit things inside the field.

For an anti MS use, simple small satelittes masked with the minovsky particles to protect from long range detection, could pepper the theater, continuously broadcasting... once holes appear in the net it would be a simple matter than to fire into the holes. Especially since it's not like wide areas are masked by the effect.

What's to stop the MS from destroying the satellites? Your proposal maybe effective for area defense, where they're trying to stop an MS from infiltrating, but by the time Minovsky particles have been broadcast, then they would know something is out there, and the satellite network becomes useless.

well, once an MS enters the brodacast field, they would be detected... and since their attention would be on taking out the satelittes, they would be easy targets.

ah, wel if the answer to every question is just that gundams can do whatever they want... sometimes they send out just enough, sometimes they send a lot, they both block and emit EM, but are simultaneously undetectable, gundam fleets have material limitations yet waste time/money and materials building huge platforms and countless missiles that are ineffective.. then I say my earlier statement is true... gundam is just a big game of: oh yeah?

[Stamen0083]

when did I ever say blindly..? the situation I describe has and is as a first attack system once you realize m.particles have been detected in system.

The whole point is you're shooting blind. If you can see the other guy, why would you need area saturation fire?

And the situation you describe is laughable... you assume that MS units rate of hit is 100%. Otherwise at anytime during a conflict once the initial line/formations have been changed you will have this situation. Friendly fire always happens.

No. Your situation is laughable. If friendly fire ALWAYS happens, then there has to be at least one dead soldier in every engagement, lethal or not.

I assume nothing regarding MS hit rate. How did this come up?

Which is it? MS units send out just enough m. particles to cover themselves? or enough to saturate huge areas of space? if they saturate huge areas of space, then I maintain you should be able to map changes in particle density based on the amount of radar or other transmissions able to make it through the cloud.

Even if the EM waves get through the weaker field, by the time they hit something, they would have encountered a field strong enough to disperse them, so no waves get reflected back. You can't measure something you don't have.

If they saturate only enough to make individual units/ships invisible, then it's sime, find the diameter of the cloud, saturate area in the middle with ballistics and submunitions.

You ever seen pictures of electric fields? I-fields are similar to that, with each ship being a charge. It completely screws up the picture.

sorry, my bad, forgot in anime small missiles, high velocity missiles are easy to shoot down. and yet, large ponderous mecha never get hit...

They're not shot down by ships. They're shot down by MS. The whole point of the MS is that they get up close and personal, use cameras to track targets, and shoot them down with close in weapons. You can't bombard from long range blindly.

I should have been more clear.

ECM does not block radar... it dupes the radar into thinking nothing is there by sending back dummy signals before the actual bounce returns. or by brodcasting flase signals that confuse radar operators.

If the radar gets some sort of signal, the radar screen shows something. It does not distinguish between true or false signals. ECM's emit waves so that on the radar screen, instead of one blip, there are many blips jumping around. Now if the emitted signal from the radar is so strong that ECM's waves get taken out through low pass filtering, the actual signal remains and thus ECM is defeated.

ECM disrupts our ability to interpret radar... it does nothing about the radar wave itself. Which is why anit-jamming techniques are possible...

:sigh:

The only way you can mess with the radar is if you mess with the only thing the radar can see, which are radio waves. See above.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

hmmm, also says it forms lattice work, which means orderly pattern, thuse no density changes...

I should have mentioned the lattice structure thing, but I figured it was more fun to let you figure it out yourself.

but you should still be able to map the outer surface area and therefore hit things inside the field.

Now that you have found the edge of the field, you still don't know where inside the field the ship lies. It's possible for the ship to move around inside the field, you know.

well, once an MS enters the brodacast field, they would be detected... and since their attention would be on taking out the satelittes, they would be easy targets.

Why?

Like I said, you don't know what you're talking about.

PS: Your quoting needs work.

[Stamen0083]

Unfortuantely I don't like the mecha designs except for a few and the story is the same and its an overall ploy to buy the next Bandai Gundam toy/model IMO. The soundtrack is nothing worth mentioning. I am kinda in disbelief of its popularity. It seems like its a mecha for the masses for its off the wall designs and that pokemon quality, 'my mecha is better than yours' anime.

Gundam used to be revolutionary, until they started with this alternate universe bullshit. Now it's just a marketing gimmick.

Gundam is popular for a reason. It used to be about the story, not the models, toys, and the shitload of merchandise that goes along with every new Gundam release.

If you don't see it, then too bad, but no one is forcing you to like it. Gundam fans just want you to acknowledge that without Gundam, Macross would not be the same Macross as you know it today.

Do you really want Roy to yell out "Valkyrie, transform!" every time he wants to change modes?

Macross is no different in its marketing strategies but the toymakers don't push every product that often due to the limited amount of series that have been generated so far.

No. toymakers don't push products that often because they have nothing new to push. Even though you groan at every new Gundam product, it's still a new product rather than the same VF-1 all the time.

When was the last time you guys got a decent toy that's not a VF-1?

The Gundam mecha IMO is too super-robot like such as Mazinger Z, Voltron etc and it doesn't appeal to me or perhaps to a much some of the mature viewing audience whose into reality based mecha designs. I guess it just boils down to what you like.

The first Gundam has barely broken the super robot mold. There were bound to still be some residue. If you want realistic mecha, it doesn't get more realistic than Katoki designs. Check out the ZetaPlus C1. Then check out the mechanism illustration in the MG Zeta Gundam manual.

[Stamen0083]

...aren't you forcing me to acknowledge Gundam as an influence to the creation of Macross?

I'm not forcing anything on you. I'm just stating the fact that Gundam started the real robot genre, and Macross rides the wave.

No Gundam, Macross would be very different.

Yes, Bandai has nothing new to offer cuz their focused on the Gundam craze. They have a set belief that Macross is a non profit venture and I'm glad that Yamato didn't listen to that bad advice.

My point is that even though they *seem* to only offer Gundams (you know, they do plenty of other things too, just not much Macross, and just not as high profile as Gundam), they offer different Gundams with many releases. The next company that comes along to offer another Macross product will probably give you another VF-1.

[motley]

Just like Gundam the story of course suffers some flaws of being that black & white; good versus bad mentality and the approach of a love triangle in every story is as old as storytelling itself and that is a given to attract viewers.

i'm going to have to severely disagree with you on this point. while there have been a couple shows that fit the mold you're discribing, most have not. going back to the original MSG, the supposed "good guys" of the Earth federation are repeatedly shown to be arrogant, racist, cruel and petty, or at least some of them are. and almost for every hideous evil Zeon character, there is one who's completely human and fairly likable. this is another of the elements of Gundam that made the show revolutionary, ALL the characters where human, and reflecting all the various shades of human behavior, from the good and the bad and several shades of normal in between.

[Panon]

Gundam used to be revolutionary, until they started with this alternate universe bullshit. Now it's just a marketing gimmick.

See, the amusing thing about this statement is that the Alternative Universe has been responsible for some of Gundams more original and mold breaking shows, whilst the Universal Century timeline has been dead for more than a decade because it was so stale, unoriginal and no longer cared about.

And if you think the older Gundam series weren't about pushing toys, you're a little out of touch with reality. Gundam has been marketing heavy since the original.

[Stamen0083]

See, the amusing thing about this statement is that the Alternative Universe has been responsible for some of Gundams more original and mold breaking shows, whilst the Universal Century timeline has been dead for more than a decade because it was so stale, unoriginal and no longer cared about.

Street Fighter Gundam is not Gundam.

Power Rangers Gundam is not Gundam.

Cash Cow Gundam is not Gundam.

Original and mold breaking in what respects? Breaking out of the Gundam mold? Then what? Fall into another anime mold?

It's only stale and unoriginal because of these alternate universes rehashing the first Gundam story. You see the same old crap in every new show, of course the first is going to seem stale and unoriginal.

There hasn't been any new things exploring the late, late UC period because no one chose to. If you think for a second that UC is dead, you're wrong.

Dengeki Hobby is working on Advance of Zeta. Meanwhile, Gundam Ace is pumping out all sorts of Gundam side stories, most of which are original and entertaining. Just because the new Gundam show isn't set in the UC universe doesn't mean it's dead.

And if you think the older Gundam series weren't about pushing toys, you're a little out of touch with reality. Gundam has been marketing heavy since the original.

That was a case of the toys promoting the show. With SEED, it's a case of the show promoting the toys.

[Druna Skass]

It's only a matter of time before things start becomming stale, it's ineviable for all franchises. Macross is no exeption, a few series down the road, unless Kawamori decides to totaly blind side us (music plays a small role, not much of a love triangle, UN Spacy blows the hell out of someone with sheer military might, etc...) people are going to start bitching that it's getting stale as well. Honestly I will start complaining about repetativeness if the next few Macross series (provided there are more) center around, a singer, a love triangle, music, and some foe indefeatable by conventional means.