Popularity of Gundam

[Graham]

The continuing popularity of Gundam both amazes and puzzles me. I mean do fans (both Japanese and overseas) like Gundam, because it's all so samey? I mean just like Super Sentai shows and Godzilla movies most Gundam animes (with a few notable exceptions) follow the same tired old formula, with nearly identical characters, Mobile Suits and plot lines.

Gundam may have been new and fresh when it first came out in 1979, but half a century on, it seems to have degenerated into a parody of itself with endless near identical rehashes of the same material (at least in my opinion). Is Gundam's popularity just a case of people being comfortable with what is familiar and not willing to stray outside of their comfort zones?

Conversely, is the much lower popularity of Macross caused by the fact that the creators, most notably Kawamori like to take Macross in completely new and original directions with each new anime and never retread the same ground. While this approach may create hit and miss titles, at least we know we are going to be getting something new and fresh with each new title rather than something bland and generic.

I guess basically, what I am asking is if Big West and Kawamori had gone the Gundam route and released a near endless string of Macross sequels every year of so, which differed only slightly in detail from the original, would Macross be much more popular than it is today?

Personally, I think that Big west missed the boat and waited too long after the release of the original TV series and DYRL to release a sequel. By the time Macross II was released, all but the die-hard fans had forgotten Macross. And let's face it, most people don't hold Macross II in very high regard anyway. My thinking is that if Big West had released a new Macross TV series around 1986 and then followed up with a quality sequel every 2-3 years, Macross would now have the same popularity as Gundam has today.

Personally, I've never understood the popularity of Gundam anyway. While some of it is good, I've always felt that Macross has far superior mecha designs, music, characters and story.

Graham

[eugimon]

I dunno if Big West could have continued to make more series after the fashion of gundam and its myriad sequels...

in gundam, the conflict is between two well developed adversarial groups... in Macross, the Space War was only a backdrop for more personal stories.

So I guess I'm saying it's easy for bandai to do a plug and play type approach to gundam... make new gundam, recycle plot, viola! new series.

With macross, to remain true to the series, you need to have believable characters and real tension and drama between them, as well as fleshing out some sort of conflict.

plus, I'm thinking it takes way more time to design out the mechanics of Macross mecha than gundam mecha... which is pretty formulaic... it's not like they've advanced terribly since the rx-78... transforming mecha at the level of detail and realism of the VFs seems like it would be much more difficult to work out convincingly and at the same time remain fresh and new.

[Gaijin]

Sad isn't it? You see the same trend with Final Fantasy.

[Montarvillois]

Forget gundam, what I reeealy don't get is Mask Rider series, now that is a weird one

[Sebastian]

BANBAI... and all the marketing backing up this old show. Is like every single mecha lover MUST have a RX 78 2... bu honestly, who likes that design? nobody, is is plain UGLY.

That is the main reason for me, a company milking the cow in every possible way, and a product that is addictive like anime and mecha.

Also, Bandai procts are SO DAMN GOOD, I may not love guindam, but I do love the products.

[Mechamaniac]

Actually, as a huge Gundam fan, I don't think it's "samey" at all. I mean, yeah, you have the same theme that flows through out most of the series..."War is bad!", but as Eugimon said...

in Macross, the Space War was only a backdrop for more personal stories.

If you think of the mechs in Gundam as the universal backdrop for more personal stories, then there is a whole new dynamic to the series. At least, the more modern series anyway...

0079 & Char's Counterattack - These set the stage for the central Gundam theme, and really were just Amuro vs. Char for the most part. CCA was an OK way to develop some characters from the original series, but unfortunately, it dealt with

most of them in typical Transformers the Movie fashion.

I can't speak for Z or ZZ, I haven't seen them.

0080 - Told through the eyes of a child who thinks (like most kids) that war is cool and glorious, and finds out that it really is not. Yeah, the "war is bad" theme is definitely here, but the personal story is cool nonetheless.

08th Team - Throw away the interpersonal relationships for this one. They are important to be sure, but the really cool thing IMHO about 08th Team is that it showed an alternative use to the mechs. It gives you the portrayal of platoons of mechs roaming the Earth, not just flying around in space, and shows you the work that it would take to keep those things going. NOW, fold in the pretty standard theme of loving your enemy, war is bad etc.

0083 - Alot of 0083 is pretty much standard Gundam, but this series shows you what happens when two regular guys wind up piloting mobile suits. Take notice that they never refer to Uraki as a Newtype and there is never any mention of him having special psychic powers etc, he is just a kid who through hard work learns how to be a good pilot. Of course, the central Gundam theme is there....war is bad, war is bad....COLONY DROP!!!

IMHO, the Gundam series that seem to parody themselves are really the AU series. Wing and G Gundam especially.

SEED is IMHO, one stop shopping for the younger Gundam crowd. It takes elements of ALL of the previous Gundam series, and folds them up into one neat little package with new CG animation. So, SEED is really, just Star Trek XXXVI, the Search for More Money.

Conversely, is the much lower popularity of Macross caused by the fact that the creators, most notably Kawamori like to take Macross in completely new and original directions with each new anime and never retread the same ground. While this approach may create hit and miss titles, at least we know we are going to be getting something new and fresh with each new title rather than something bland and generic.

I guess basically, what I am asking is if Big West and Kawamori had gone the Gundam route and released a near endless string of Macross sequels every year of so, which differed only slightly in detail from the original, would Macross be much more popular than it is today?

How is it that you don't see the same trend in Macross????

SDF - War is bad, unstoppable enemy, Love and music will conquer all.

DYRL - ditto

Macross II - AU rehash of SDF Macross...so.....ditto

Macross 7 - ditto

Macross Plus - OK, this one deviates significantly.

Macross Zero - Noone really knows what's going to happen yet, but it appears that once again, War is bad, Nora and Ivanov certainly appear to be unstoppable, and Shin and Sara have got a little love and music thing going on which will probably eventually conquer all.

[GobotFool]

BANBAI... and all the marketing backing up this old show. Is like every single mecha lover MUST have a RX 78 2... bu honestly, who likes that design? nobody, is is plain UGLY.

That is the main reason for me, a company milking the cow in every possible way, and a product that is addictive like anime and mecha.

Also, Bandai procts are SO DAMN GOOD, I may not love guindam, but I do love the products.

I like the RX-78!

Guess that makes me a freak

[Mechamaniac]

BANBAI...  and all the marketing backing up this old  show.  Is like every single mecha lover MUST have a RX 78 2... bu honestly, who likes that design?  nobody, is is plain UGLY.

That is the main reason for me, a company milking the cow in every possible way, and a product that is addictive like anime and mecha. 

Also, Bandai procts are SO DAMN GOOD, I may not love guindam, but I do love the products.

I like the RX-78!

Guess that makes me a freak

I have to admit that the animation makes the RX-78 2 not only ugly, but BUTT FUGLY.

However, I had a change to snag a completed RX-78 2 PG Model at a super cheap price, and it is rapidly becoming my second favorite Gundam PG. It just looks SO MUCH BETTER when designed in CAD.

[CoryHolmes]

Conversely, is the much lower popularity of Macross caused by the fact that the creators, most notably Kawamori like to take Macross in completely new and original directions with each new anime and never retread the same ground.

Actually, I think there's a problem with this statement.

I see a startling similarity between the main characters in all the Macross series'. I mean, I look at Hikaru, and I easily see Shin and Isamu doing exactly the same things, with exactly the same responses in the mecha.

They all start off as hot-dogging, authority-resisting types. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a new type of main character.

[jonwayne]

r u toking about their toy/model kits or the anime? coz i see them as separate enities.

i love gundam model kit coz i love their mecha design. not all, but several. my fav is Wing 0 Custom and Deathscythe Custom. But I dun really like Gundam Wing anime. irony isn't it?

i'll continue to collect gundam model kits despite how the anime turns out.

[Californium]

Haven't you asked this question before?

Or maybe my memory is befouled by endless plot repetition.

Gundam, especially AU Gundam, certainly recycles its basic story elements ad-nauseum. I can forgive this in half of the UC series, as it changes up the presentation while remaining consistent within its own universe and themes; Sometimes rejuvenating the old formula using new viewer perspectives or sheer good writing. (0080 for example)

AU gets really bad though, and owes its popularity simply to the facts that it is much hyped, has an overwhelming infrastructure of product tie-ins, and is easy to digest for those who don’t care that much what they're getting into. It’s the easy thing. The latest in big-robot crack.

Macross does the same thing. Endless repetition of the old formula. Especially in the character-types. And like Gundam, sometimes makes the mistake of trying to make a new series “Bigger” and “More Radical Dude” than the last. The only exception to the formula-junkieism being Macross Plus. (Inspired in part by a Dale Brown novel?)

In part it’s a product of success. The easy thing to do is to say, “how did we create a great thing before?” And “how can we repeat it?” The simple answer? Repeat it: all of it. The details and nuance of what was great get lost in the new iterations, which try to hard to encapsulate the original without being the least original in the process. Besides which, being original can be dangerous once one has built up a fan base of simpering robot-addicts. Case in point: how well was the Turn-A design received? (perhaps not the best example, but my point is clear…) Making a new series then becomes a race for the lowest common denominator.

BTW: I really like the more refined and detailed iterations of the RX-78. A simple clean mech without need for transformation gimmicks. (er… ignore all that core fighter nonsense..)

Edited July 7, 2004 by Californium

[GobotFool]

BANBAI...  and all the marketing backing up this old  show.  Is like every single mecha lover MUST have a RX 78 2... bu honestly, who likes that design?  nobody, is is plain UGLY.

That is the main reason for me, a company milking the cow in every possible way, and a product that is addictive like anime and mecha. 

Also, Bandai procts are SO DAMN GOOD, I may not love guindam, but I do love the products.

I like the RX-78!

Guess that makes me a freak

I have to admit that the animation makes the RX-78 2 not only ugly, but BUTT FUGLY.

However, I had a change to snag a completed RX-78 2 PG Model at a super cheap price, and it is rapidly becoming my second favorite Gundam PG. It just looks SO MUCH BETTER when designed in CAD.

yes, perhaps I ought to specify, I like the PG RX-78. The toon version looks like ass.

[mikeszekely]

Graham, I kinda see your point... to a degree. I mean, I see your points about parody (G Gundam) and rehashing (X, Wing, and SEED). But the rehashes are mostly to attract a newer, younger audience. But the core of Gundam's fandom is in the original Gundam series, much like the core of the Macross fandom here on these boards are for the original.

I'm not going to disagree with you that Macross had better music and mecha designs. I won't even argue that Macross had better characters, although Gundam had its share of notable characters. But Gundam had several other things going for it that made it stand out in its time.

For starters, Gundam was the birth of the "real" robot shows. Sure, they're been mecha shows before it... but they were all what we'd later come to think of as the "super" robot shows. And sure, Gundam had its star hero robot, but Gundam was really the first to run with the idea of humans fighting humans with mass-produced robots in the hands of militaries. When Macross came onto the scene, it had great characters and mecha, but it wasn't breaking the same ground that Gundam did.

Another big thing was that a lot of the technology and social issues being dealt with in Gundam were very much on the minds of people in the 70's. The design of the colonies, the notion of putting them at the Lagrange points were all figured out by scientists rather than the shows creators, as overpopulation was becoming an issue then and the idea of building space colonies was considered to be a very real solution. In fact, much of the science in Gundam is based more in actual science than the convenient blanket of "Overtechnology" reverse engineered from an advanced alien race. For more on that, do take a look at the very excellent site Mobile Suit Gundam: High Frontier.

[Blaine23]

Take it for what it's worth...

But I think if Kawamori & Big West had another shot at a Macross TV series they would be best served by creating something very similar to the original. You don't see great Space soap opera that much anymore, particularly not mixed with all of the other elements that make Macross great - like the valkyries, music, etc.

I miss the great space "coming of age" theme and I miss seeing a dumb recruit learn the terrible lessons of war while piloting badass transforming mecha.

Gundam's success has much to do with repetition - even the colors of the mecha is repetitive to a scary level - but it also has much to do with great marketing and lots of money.

[CF18]

It's all about good marketing, and a good number of loyal fans who got too much money. In many ways it is about selling mecha design instead of story or character - just look at the popularity of the un-animated S-Gundam when very few have read the novel. The toy+Gunpla marketing machine in Japan is just huge - you got 4 magazines which push Gundam stuff - Gundam Ace, Newtype, Hobby Japan and Dengeki Hobby, and at least 4 brands of sub-companies covering the market: Bandai Toy(MSIA/FIX/SD), Bandai Hobby(Models), Bandpresto(Games/toys), B-Club(Resin) etc. Bandai is the world's 3rd largest toy company after Mattel and Hasbro, and at least 25% (Can't remember the actual figure) of Bandai's sale came from Gundam stuff.

The purpose of the new show is to draw in new fans, and it may happen to generate a few good mecha design so that the toy/model fans would buy it in 10 different scales.

As for the shows themself, they are not that different from other action-scifi like Masked Raider, Transformers, Star Wars or Star Trek - recycle the winning formula. Gundam just being the biggest in Japan, and Bandai works hard to keep it in that position.

[Majestic]

I definately see Graham's point on the rather bland and repetitive Gundam story arcs.

The formula:

Reluctant Amatuer Teenage Pilot + Experienced Zeon Ace = Colony Drop/Mutual Love Interest

I like Gundam mostly for its mech design, but am less than impressed by most of the series/films. Char's Counterattack (minus Quess), 0083, some of 08th team/Miller's report, F91, have some great mech battles, which is mostly what I'm interested in. Most of the rest of the series' I look on in horror. I avoid the AU series' like the plague. SEED, while it has some decent design, just looks like power ranger gundam to me, where apparently the entire population has their own personal gundam.

It is pretty odd that they stay so formulaic without taking a chance once in a while. I really wish they would do a series from the Zeon point of view, but we all know that it would likely follow the same formula.

It's really a waste that such great mech design is for the most part wasted. I wish they'd get some better writing and a more serious UC story going. Maybe something along the lines of a "Heart of Darkness" theme, even if its been done to death elsewhere. In summary, MORE serious UC stories please!

[EXO]

I always complain about how the the Gundams look the same to me. But then they point out my VF collection and remind me... "they're just different heads!"

whatever...

[Agent ONE]

...

I guess basically, what I am asking is if Big West and Kawamori had gone the Gundam route and released a near endless string of Macross sequels every year of so, which differed only slightly in detail from the original, would Macross be much more popular than it is today?

...

Graham,

Great thread man.

The answer is simple, yes Macross would be more popular if the sequels were similar to the original.

If you know what to expect, and you get it, you keep comming back for more.

Kawamori nailed it with SDF-M, and even more-so with DYRL and Flashback... Then IMO, BW screwed up with M2, and even though I liked MPlus, it was totally different. It didn't necessarily make me want to see the original show again, and I've spoken to many fans who discovered Macross by first seeing MPlus, then saw SDF-M and didn't like it.

Lets face it. If you have a formula that works, don't mess with it.

Think about successfull franchaises... They stick to the formula.

James Bond - What if the next one was a musical?

Star Wars - What if the next one was animated?

Shrek - What if the next one was drama focused on rape?

Mission Impossible - What if the next one was comedy?

Can ya' dig it?

[Druna Skass]

What drew me to Gundam and hooked me on it, was the exact same thing that drew me to Macross, the mechanical designs and fight scenes.

[treatment]

I think Gundam is just more popular than Macross in Japan only.

Macross/Robotech has alot more popularity and recognition here in the States, Canada, Mexico, Southeast Asia countries, and possibly Europe.

I mean, c'mon. Who would not recognize an F-14 jet with a skull-emblem?

Of course nowadays, you got Gundam-Seed and the stateside Gundam-toys/models to keep the US-fans' memories fresh.

If only DYRL and Macross Zero (along with the toys) were easily officially available outside of Japan (i.e. retail here in US) without the HG-monkey...

I still remember the days when the first Yammie Macross-Plus and VF-1 toys were on retail. It sold out completely in the local anime-store I used to go way before HG visited them with their C&D poo. I can't forget since I'm one of the ones that got SOL on the toys coz of that visit. Bastards.

Edited July 7, 2004 by treatment

[motley]

i would say its less about repetition of themes, and more about market saturation. with a new gundam show every couple of years, even bad ones, the fan base stays connected and new fans are continually brought in. we see this with star trek as well. i think what made the original gundam popular, was less the imagery and more the story. the power of the original story has definitely been somewhat muted though, by the shows that have followed and borrowed its elements.

i'll admit to being a big gundam fan, but the lack of originality is starting to get old, especially with the new shows. i like the original MSG, dated animation and all more than any of the other gundam shows i've seen (OVAs excluded), which at this point is only the AU ones due to a certain lack of courage on the part of bandai america. and SEED and its sequel have completely failed to interest me apart from a couple of diecast heavy toys i'm thinking of selling.

but yes i do think that if there had been scads of macross sequels with a complete lack of originality, that it would be more popular than it is today. but honestly i suspect that one of the biggest things holding macross back is the theme of music/culture as a weapon. its definitely what has prevented macross 7 from gaining much popularity, and i suspect it limits the popularity of the tv show. the mecha genre thrives on certain themes and sets of imagery, repitition and a certain degree of unoriginality are standard. some deviance is allowed, but when you get too innovative things tend to folp.

[Sebastian]

However, I had a change to snag a completed RX-78 2 PG Model at a super cheap price, and it is rapidly becoming my second favorite Gundam PG. It just looks SO MUCH BETTER when designed in CAD.

That is what mean... You hate the design untill you get a MG or PG... those things means intant pure mecha love... they are beauties.

Now inmagine a PG Zeorymer and the Wind bad guy, Orgun... just to name some old designs. What about a Valk?

But still, the RX 78-2 is one of the shitest mecha designs ever... Not to mention all those Z bad guys and the first Zakus. And SO MANY other Crappy things like the G guncrap and that poseidon THING with horse carriage... OMG...

If you start naming ugly gundams, you will end with a huge list.

[Sebastian]

I like the RX-78!

Guess that makes me a freak

Yes... it does.

[Agent ONE]

I think Gundam is just more popular than Macross in Japan only.

Macross/Robotech has alot more popularity and recognition here in the States, Canada, Mexico, Southeast Asia countries, and possibly Europe.

...

True, but I would argue that your conclusion only applies to SDF-M and thats only because of RT. Other than that Gundam is WAY more popular than Macross.

Making comparisons to the two outside of Japan is difficult because of so many other variables like liscencing, marketing, and distribution.

[ewilen]

I'll take everyone's word for it re: Gundam (haven't seen much myself), but isn't it funny that "war is bad", yet the real message of Gundam and Macross is that you can portray war as kickass cool, provided you slap on a "war is bad" message?

[Nightbat]

Marvel Comics anyone?

[Dat Pinche Haro!]

if you really think about it...just about any comic book company that has a title that's gone over 100+ pretty much has rehashed plots and stuff

[motley]

i wouldn't say that gundam really makes an effort to show "kickass cool' mecha action, or at least the UC shows (not the OVAs, or at least not 0083). in MSG, the original show, Amuro, the main character is rather traumatized by what he's going through. he's only 15 or so, and the strain of being a full time soldier, and the principle protector of a ship full of refugees starts to get to him, not to mention the fact that in the course of the show he winds up killing several hundred people, both directly in MS to MS combat, and indirectly by shoting down capital ships. by the end of the show he's essentially a machine, little emotion, just death. its quite different from SDF macross, where hikaru and max are just part of a large flight wing, in MSG, there are 6 pilots total, two of which die, and amuro scores virtually all the kills. plus the UC gundam shows are Tomimo at the peak of his 'kill them all' phase. many of the central characters die, and many of the enemy pilots have character development before they get killed by the gundam. macross tends to show war on a grander (and mostly more realistic) scale, whereas gundam shows a decidedly personal take.

i wouldn't say one is better, they're just different, and products of their time. gundam opened the doors to more realistic mecha design, of which macross is decidedly a result, though its debatable how realistic a flying transforming robot really is. gundam presents a pretty raw picture, where macross is much more refined. the gundam directors also try to make the mecha action secondary, but it almost always has more impact. the macross shows have made the same attempt, with much more success, due to the scale.

edit- spelling

Edited July 7, 2004 by motley

[treatment]

I think Gundam is just more popular than Macross in Japan only. 

Macross/Robotech has alot more popularity and recognition here in the States, Canada, Mexico, Southeast Asia countries, and possibly Europe.

...

True, but I would argue that your conclusion only applies to SDF-M and thats only because of RT. Other than that Gundam is WAY more popular than Macross.

Making comparisons to the two outside of Japan is difficult because of so many other variables like liscencing, marketing, and distribution.

Therein lies the problem.

licensing, marketing and distribution. especially here in the States.

Macross-franchise is pretty much hobbled by HG. Yes, we got the animeigo-sets, but we don't have DYRL nor Macross Zero. We also don't see the Yammies in Toys-R-Us and other retail stores for proper exposure. Instead, we get those super-sucky hg-branded MPCs and poo.

We even got a shitty Macross Plus movie-edition vhs-dump video with hard-subs.

In contrast,

Gundam-franchise doesn't have any of that problem. Go to a wal-mart and you'll see a bunch of Gundam-related merchandizes.

The Gundam-dvd's are all pretty much swanky in video and features.

*sigh*

Edited July 7, 2004 by treatment

[Jolly Rogers]

transforming mecha at the level of detail and realism of the VFs seems like it would be much more difficult to work out convincingly and at the same time remain fresh and new.

Realism? Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

Gundam remains popular because the products sold like hot cakes. It was a case of "let's give people more of what they liked". Zeta Gundam would never have been made if the model kits for original Gundam and MSV didn't sell like crazy. Once they've made a few sequels, they realized there's a lot of money riding on the franchise and became more conservative with new productions. It wasn't until the franchise was becoming stale and ratings started to fall (Gundam X) that they loosened the creative restrictions and allow a show like Turn-A to be made. However, the show wasn't the merchandising bonanza they hoped it'd be so here we have Gundam Seed and sequel being the good ho's for Bandai to pimp again.

The rights to Gundam was owned by a corporation that has a banker sitting on the boards after its finances went down the crapper in the late 1990s. The rights to Macross was owned by artists. Therein lies the difference. Kawamori would rather follow his own muse and work on something with artistic merit/integrity than milking Macross on a full-time basis.

[EXO]

Would it be safe to assume that if Yamato's sales improved that Big West's would profit enough to make more Macross shows then.

It seems that Macross is stuck in that hole though. There aren't enough fans to warrant more toys, there isn't enough shows in the franchise to market, and they neither market the toys nor the shows. And it doesn't seem like Macross 0 is the show that would help them out of that hole.

I hate it say it because I hate formulas, but in this case it works. The mecha and the action in Zero is fine, but we need more of what make Macross works. And that's Mikimoto designed characters, idol singers and some serious butt kicking alien army (not vampires). The story can deviate were it wouldn't seem so formulaic, but lets get more of what made Macross what it is.

[Commander McBride]

Personally, I think the Gundam loses some of it's character in the transition to MP / PG. I honestly think the best rendition of it is the Kado Senshi chogokin version. That goes for the Zaku as well.

[treatment]

fwiw, I think Hal just need to update his character-art and designs. I want a more updated Ishtar-like designs from Hal.

Zero actually had good character-designs on par with the other anime right now. It doesn't have the wow-effect of Gonzo-art, but it's also not as generic and much-abused like Gonzo-art.

[Jolly Rogers]

Personally, I think the Gundam loses some of it's character in the transition to MP / PG. I honestly think the best rendition of it is the Kado Senshi chogokin version. That goes for the Zaku as well.

Wow, you are a man of taste. The Kado Senshi line sticks to the original anime styling. Most MGs and PGs have been modernized, sometimes by people who didn't even design it in the first place.

[PC Valkyrie]

Haven't posted here in a while.

I completely agree with AgentOne's post. Yes, Macross would be far more popular if it went the Gundam route.

Face it, to have mass popularity in young/teenage boys (you know most fans are boys), you have to have cool looking/transforming mecha. Without cool mecha, Gundam and Macross WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POPULAR AT ALL. Yes, some fans crave story, character development, but they are not the vast majority (for mass appeal).

Bandai/Gundam has been very successful because there has never been any prolonged drought of new series. With a continous stream of TV series, OVA's, movies, etc, old and new fans can come aboard with ease to strengthen the fan base with sheer numbers. Yes, some series may seem like a rehash of the same old thing for old time fans, but it doesn't matter!! What matters is that cool mecha will still attract new young fans, who will then discover all the older series as well.