The real deal with Harmony Gold and DYRL

[Kamjin 639]

I know that the legalities regarding Macross are finely-woven, but I was always with the gross understanding that Big West had the legal rights to all things included in Macross, as the series was of their design. Tatsunoko held no rights to it because, even though they were the principal animators of the series, their job was of a "service contract" in which Big West essentially paid them to animate THEIR series.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Of course, if Tatsunoko held rights to it, then Big West would have to "give some of Macross" to all of the other studios that animated it, and you know there's a 'Friend' who's gonna be looking for some of that action!

Edited July 7, 2004 by Kamjin 639

[Hiriyu]

Just wild fan speculation/conspiracy theory here, but while reading ewilen's latest comments a moment ago, I thought of an odd scenario which might be possible, but relies on a series of unsubstantiated assumptions... And making it fit right in here, I think

Ok, first assumption, and a dirty little assumption at that: HG/TP's licensing contract does, at least semantically, appear to award exclusive international (outside of Japan) distribution and merchandising rights to HG.

HG goes on to use dubbed and edited SDF:M footage as the first chapter in the R-show. However, all marketed merchandise/derivatives are released under the Robotech name, not under the Macross nomenclature. This continues for some time.

Rather suddenly, about twenty years on, as yesterday's kids reach affluence, the original franchise sees a market boom. There is suddenly more money to be made from the franchise and HG takes notice. Someone at HG takes another look at the old contract to determine how they may cash in. HG realizes, perhaps due to the wording of the contract, they may possibly be able to assume a defensible full copyright for Macross, in the US at least. However, in order to do so, they need to establish precedent in trade using the Macross nomenclature. Up to this time, all retail products have appeared under Robotech umbrella. So out come the DVD sets etc.

Once HG-licensed Macross product are in the retail channels in the US, under the Macross name, HG has backed their claim to domestic US copyright to their own satisfaction (no one else is or has been selling Macross here right?). HG feel they are then free to market any other merchandise bearing the name Macross in the US, because after all, they can now "prove" to the US courts that they have been the sole purveyors of US Macross product, and are therefore the rightful recipients of US copyright or trademark.

I know that the above is wrong on so many levels, but what if that were actually what they were thinking?

[ewilen]

Kamjin 639, you're mistaken. Sorry. A detailed answer would rightly belong in the legal debates thread. Basically, your assumptions are partly contradicted by some of the legal cases, and partly contradicted by a contract between BW and TP (whose exact terms are secret but which has been summarized in various places). They've also been further challenged by TP in other legal cases, though unsuccessfully so far. Once again, I would point you to the IP/Cyberlaw Watch article for information on earlier judgments regarding copyright, and to my posts from Feb. 20 onwards in the legal debates thread for the most recent judgments on trademark.

Hiriyu, I think your speculation is very much on the mark. However, what HG has been establishing is not copyright, but trademark. You don't establish copyright by selling products: copyright exists at the moment a work is created, and it can be then be sold or transferred in a very clearcut fashion. Trademark on the other hand is established by using a mark in commerce.

Also, there was no need initially to look at an obscure contract clause. HG's ability to use SDF Macross is uncontroversial; what was new (as you say) was that they were marketing stuff using the Macross name instead of Robotech (including DVD's and an earlier special run of Super Posables). Now HG is trying to expand its trademark claims to another title--DYRL. But in order to use the title in commerce, HG had to come up with some DYRL merchandise. Thus the new SP's, and thus the claim that an obscure clause lets them use the DYRL designs, even though the copyright on those designs apparently belongs to Big West.

Edited July 7, 2004 by ewilen

[JB0]

And, of course, there were the Macross Plus hissy-fits.

[Hiriyu]

Ewilen, thanks for the clarification re the distinctions between trademark and copyright. I think I have a better handle on it now, but your reinforcement of my conspiracy theory paints a grim picture, if it's in any way close to truth.

The reason I had mentioned copyright though, is that I had read a post in the legal thread which linked to the Toynami SP page, displaying HGs claimed copyright AND trademark for the products in question.

I had mentioned the earlier, non-controversial, distribution agreement in my post more as a navigation point for my own muddled thoughts to rally 'round, and possibly for the benefit of anyone else not entirely entrenched in the 'legal debate' thing

[ewilen]

I think you're referring to this:

MACROSS: DO YOU REMEMBER LOVE  and all related characters and elements are TM & © Harmony Gold.

at http://www.toynami.com/macross.html

The act of attaching a TM to a name has a clear intent: you're saying the name is a trademark that belongs to you. Attaching a copyright notice to a name really doesn't mean anything at all. See http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.html

POSITION OF NOTICE

The copyright notice should be placed on copies or phonorecords in such a way that it gives reasonable notice of the claim of copyright. The notice should be permanently legible to an ordinary user of the work under normal conditions of use and should not be concealed from view upon reasonable examination.

In other words, a copyright notice is placed on the copy of the thing on which you are claiming copyright. (All this is aside from the fact that US law no longer requires any kind of notice. But if you're going to use one, it's not really meaningful unless it's on the thing.)

So, on what is HG claiming copyright? Obviously not the name. The notice is meaningless at worst, ambiguous at best. While they may be trying to give the impression that they have copyright on the movie, the most they've actually claimed (according to the beginning of this thread) is copyright on the designs they're using to make the DYRL superposables. My best guess at the "real" meaning of the notice is that they're claiming the right to create "merchandise" (toys, clothing, etc.) based on the line art designs from DYRL. That would include pictures of mecha, ships, and characters.

Edited July 7, 2004 by ewilen

[Hiriyu]

Yep, that's the link I was referring to.

Veeery interesting stuff, in a completely morbid way . Thanks again for the info and helping to get me up to speed. 'Twill be interesting to see what develops from here...

Any other comments or questions I'll post in the proper thread.

[ogami]

From the marketing point of view, HG's DYRL toys are going to sell great because there is nothing to back it up, M:DYRL has no international DVD/VHS/theatre release.

Just imagine how many Robotech fans actually know what is (or even watch) DYRL and how many will buy DYRL stuff before seeing the movie...

[Renato]

Yeah, you know, that black hole thing.  Misa says, "Hey wonder what that is?" and they all die.  

Seriously now, SOMEBODY PLEASE scan the booklet for the SegaSaturn game so we can bury this beaten, dead horse.

Hey man, I offered to scan them a few months ago, but you never replied, so I never bothered to go ahead with it. Anyways, here are a couple of pages. I could scan the rest of the booklet later, but it's just characters bios and mecha listings, at least as far as I can tell.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Maybe it's on another page..?

Interesting how that sheet with all the different series on it is printed in colour, while another sheet with the exact same layout and info which comes with the PS VFX1 game is printed only in blue.

[Wheels]

* Nobody knows what happened to the Megaroad.

Tell us, oh wise one, what DID happen to the Megaroad?

It became the Miniroad?

Hehe.

Yeah, you know, that black hole thing. Misa says, "Hey wonder what that is?" and they all die.

Seriously now, SOMEBODY PLEASE scan the booklet for the SegaSaturn game so we can bury this beaten, dead horse.

I agree. Someone please do that.

Question: What is Magaroad? And how does this SegaSaturn bootlet relate to it, hence burying that beaten, dead horse?

Please forgive me, since I'm relatively new to Macross - I'm passed the newbie stage, but I need to be brought up to speed with all the little nuances to fully understand. This is one of those nuances.

Thanks!

[JB0]

* Nobody knows what happened to the Megaroad.

Tell us, oh wise one, what DID happen to the Megaroad?

It became the Miniroad?

Hehe.

Yeah, you know, that black hole thing. Misa says, "Hey wonder what that is?" and they all die.

Seriously now, SOMEBODY PLEASE scan the booklet for the SegaSaturn game so we can bury this beaten, dead horse.

I agree. Someone please do that.

Question: What is Magaroad? And how does this SegaSaturn bootlet relate to it, hence burying that beaten, dead horse?

Please forgive me, since I'm relatively new to Macross - I'm passed the newbie stage, but I need to be brought up to speed with all the little nuances to fully understand. This is one of those nuances.

Thanks!

Megaroad = the colony ship that Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay left on after the original TV series ended.

The Saturn booklet came with the Macross:DYRL game, and lays out the major series events, as I understand it.

[ewilen]

Looking at all those nested quotes makes me dizzy.

[TheLoneWolf]

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Maybe it's on another page..?

Interesting how that sheet with all the different series on it is printed in colour, while another sheet with the exact same layout and info which comes with the PS VFX1 game is printed only in blue.

Hey, nobody told me the Robotech and HG license debates thread was moved to this forum. My bad, this is a whole new thread. It's just the same crap, different forum.

Renato, I've scanned the entire Saturn booklet in the hopes of putting to rest this urban legend. While my Japanese is on par with my ability to pilot a Valkyrie, I'm going to go out on a limb when I say there's nothing of interest in this booklet. It's all here in a 1.2 meg .zip hosted on another site. I've used up enough of Shawn's bandwidth

http://tiger.towson.edu/~kmudd2/macross/DY...urn_Booklet.zip

[Legioss]

Renato, I've scanned the entire Saturn booklet in the hopes of putting to rest this urban legend. While my Japanese is on par with my ability to pilot a Valkyrie, I'm going to go out on a limb when I say there's nothing of interest in this booklet. It's all here in a 1.2 meg .zip hosted on another site. I've used up enough of Shawn's bandwidth

http://tiger.towson.edu/~kmudd2/macross/DY...urn_Booklet.zip

Nice Mylene avatar on page 25.

[Wheels]

Question: What is Magaroad? And how does this SegaSaturn bootlet relate to it, hence burying that beaten, dead horse?

Please forgive me, since I'm relatively new to Macross - I'm passed the newbie stage, but I need to be brought up to speed with all the little nuances to fully understand. This is one of those nuances.

Thanks!

Megaroad = the colony ship that Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay left on after the original TV series ended.

The Saturn booklet came with the Macross:DYRL game, and lays out the major series events, as I understand it.

Ahh, I see. Thanks!

Looking at all those nested quotes makes me dizzy.

Yeah, me too. So there it is in condensed form above. I guess I shoulda done that in the first place.

Hmmm, I seem to have missed reading that first post you linked to.

[ewilen]

As for Tatsunoko & the DYRL dub, I believe that info is on the old SUPERDIMENSION FORTRESS MACROSS VHS credits.

Please see the legal debate thread, where I'm posting a followup on this.

[terry the lone wolf]

I have no beef with HG releasing DYRL here in the US so long as it's unedited in any form or fashion (people over at RT.com are clamoring to see the original RT voice-crew Dub DYRL.... a geriatric voice crew? get real..... Warren and Clarke are the only two still doing Voice acting to any SERIOUS degree)

Tony Oliver aka Rick Hunter does Lupin the Third and Vandread. Listen, I wouldn't mind a stateside dvd release of DYRL. I wouldn't mind the Robotech crew doing the voiceovers. I would hate for HG to edit it and merged it to Robotech.

[LordSixx]

I would have been OK with this whole RT thing in the first place if all they did was translate, dub, and rename a few things. To be honest with ya, I can't trust 'em to do just that. You KNOW they'll somehow incorporate RT into DYRL if they get their hands on it. Funny thing, my younger cousin calls me last nite (new to Macross) to tell me he's checking out Mac II. I told him have fun and STAY AWAY from anything with an RT label on it.

[lebhead]

I would have been OK with this whole RT thing in the first place if all they did was translate, dub, and rename a few things. To be honest with ya, I can't trust 'em to do just that. You KNOW they'll somehow incorporate RT into DYRL if they get their hands on it. Funny thing, my younger cousin calls me last nite (new to Macross) to tell me he's checking out Mac II. I told him have fun and STAY AWAY from anything with an RT label on it.

why would you say that? the Macross DVDs (animeigo) were released without ANY "Robotech" in them. what makes you think they wouldn't do the same for DYRL? remember, Robotech was "created" 20 years ago. times are different now.

[Jemstone]

Hey, I found some Video of HG's presentation at AX. Who is that guy? Tommy Yune?

OMG!! That is the funniest spoofed propoganda I've ever seen. I just fell over laughing when it all loaded up. LMAO!!!

[Bub]

Hey, I found some Video of HG's presentation at AX. Who is that guy? Tommy Yune?

OMG!! That is the funniest spoofed propoganda I've ever seen. I just fell over laughing when it all loaded up. LMAO!!!

LMAO ROTF