The real deal with Harmony Gold and DYRL

[Apollo Leader]

What was announced at Anime Expo is that Tatsunoko had a deal with Big West for INTERNATIONAL merchandising rights associated with Macross DYRL going back to 1984. This is ENTIRELY SEPARATE from all the licensing and merchandising controversies going back to the original TV series.

Anyway, either Harmony Gold or Tatsunoko figured this out recently and I guess you can say the rest is history.

That is why Big West has down nothing to stop what Harmony Gold has been doing these last few months.

Hopefuly, Big West will not be a bunch of dicks and they will allow Yamato and others to deal with Harmony Gold. I want to be able to buy a few affordable VF-1's before I have complete burnout...

[eugimon]

Hopefuly, Big West will not be a bunch of dicks and they will allow Yamato and others to deal with Harmony Gold. I want to be able to buy a few affordable VF-1's before I have complete burnout...

I don't think it's big west that would be the deciding factor... more likely the fact that HG with toynami already has their own toy line up and having yamatos come in would lessen demand for their product and lower the value for their wares as well.

plus, HG would probably want license fees from yamato driving prices up...

oh... and...

no way am I buying a macross product with "robotech" slapped on the packaging.

[Knight26]

YOu have got to be kidding me I thought Tatsunoko had nothing to do with DYRL. Oh man this is going to suck so hard, unless HG has a major change in management and pulls their heads out of their tails. I hope to get a full report on this after the Expo, come on Egan how come you didn't know? Or is HG just blowing smoke?

[Roy Focker]

Of course it will be something that is only recently discovered.

Yeah is Toynami really going to want HG to make a deal with Yamato?

HG: Hey Toynami I know we had deal and all but you stuff sucks compared to Yamato, cya.

Toynami: boo hoo.

HG is an honest company that honors deals that it make.

We might like Big West not to be dicks and start sending them some good stuff but why would they want to? HG acted dickish at the start of the Macross Plus fiasco I'm sure that Big West be eager to help them now. Of course a truck load of money can heal all wounds.

Special Note: Anybody that wants to say HG was just doing what they saw as protecting their rights go ahead I agree with you but I still think they being dickish about it. It wouldn't be much of a surpize if BW act like dicks later on.

Okay this for International merchandising rights but does it included right to distribute the film internationally? I think merchandise as coffee cups and t-shirts.

[bandit29]

I'm a bit behind on my legal Macross knowledge. What are TP and BW still fighting about? I guess Macross Zero is in limbo too....

Macross: the most mishandled anime franchise..

[LordSixx]

HG is just like the Republican Party, they'll say or do ANYTHING to keep their power! I'm with Eugimon, I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING that has a RT or HG label!!!

[Druna Skass]

Meh, I've been long tired of the VF-1 already, keep me from getting some other VF for a decent price, then I'll be pissed...

[Apollo Leader]

HG is just like the Republican Party, they'll say or do ANYTHING to keep their power! I'm with Eugimon, I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING that has a RT or HG label!!!

Don't get me started on the Democrats, dude.

Stick to the subject matter.

From all the prodding I can do, there would be room for Yamato and others to deal depending on if Big West would allow it.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Apollo Leader

[LordSixx]

Oh yeah... sorry "dude".

[eugimon]

HG is just like the Republican Party, they'll say or do ANYTHING to keep their power! I'm with Eugimon, I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING that has a RT or HG label!!!

well, I wouldn't go so far as to say I won't buy *anything* with HG or robotech on it.. just nothing that was macross related... I think I might spring for an alpha...

[Duke Togo]

INTERNATIONAL merchandising rights

In other words, toys, games, etc... and still no domestic release of DYRL. Merchandising doesn't equal rights to the movie, which means that we're still stuck.

[mechaninac]

HG is just like the Republican Party, they'll say or do ANYTHING to keep their power! I'm with Eugimon, I WILL NOT BUY ANYTHING that has a RT or HG label!!!

And I'm sure HG is just like the Democratic Party...they'll lie, cheat, and steal, and get their legions of mindless myrmidons to go along with it in order to regain the power they squandered and lost. See, your little political gibe works both ways.

Edited July 4, 2004 by mechaninac

[Isamu Atreides 86]

no politics please. i'm sure bill o'reilly has a personal wbesite we can take discussions like this to.

[TheLoneWolf]

And I always wondered why the MPC Super Armor had removable booster tips. Can we say Masterpiece Strike Valkyries?

[the white drew carey]

Question: Was this announced by HG themselves at the RT panel?

I take this little bit of information as highly suspect. I still remember their claims at AX and SDCC in 2002 which was just hot air to placate worried RT fans.

[Gubaba]

At the AX panel they definitely said that could release DYRL domestically as part of the "merchandising rights." They aslo said that Tatsunoko were co-producers of the movie, which is why the deal covered DYRL as well.

What was weird about it was that it was completely an afterthought...it wasn't part of their presentation; they only addressed the issue because someone asked at the Q&A.

And of course, no word on when the DVD would actually come out...

I could've asked, but I was carrying three bags of Hasegawa models, and I was afraid someone from HG would confiscate them if they knew...

[TheLoneWolf]

I take this little bit of information as highly suspect. I still remember their claims at AX and SDCC in 2002 which was just hot air to placate worried RT fans.

The difference this time is that they've already gone ahead and released DYRL toys. Toynami has had plenty of oppurtunities over the past 4 years to exploit DYRL designs, yet they've avoided it as if they honestly believed they did not have that right. But now, Toynami has released DYRL toys. HG must have shown Toynami some very convincing evidence, because no company makes this sort of financial commitment on a bluff.

[mechaninac]

no politics please. i'm sure bill o'reilly has a personal wbesite we can take discussions like this to.

Point taken. I agree that this is no place for politics, but I did not start it and felt that that puerile, cavalier comment deserved a response in kind.

I'll henceforth step off my soap box.

[Keith]

While Tatsunoko was indeed involved in the DYRL production (they are afterall to blame for Kiseki releasing the crapass international versions over the years, and that hong kong dub itself for that matter), but one thing still doesn't add up. If HG "truly" had DYRL merchandising rights, why use the TV style features on the toy molds (such as the TV style 1A head instead of the superior movie style).

As for Big West being dicks, come on now, all they're trying to do is get their propety handled properly after a 20+ year old fubar'd contract. HG are the ones being dicks trying to prevent anyone from releasing items which they themselves have no rights to.

[Ginrai]

While Tatsunoko was indeed involved in the DYRL production (they are afterall to blame for Kiseki releasing the crapass international versions over the years, and that hong kong dub itself for that matter), but one thing still doesn't add up. If HG "truly" had DYRL merchandising rights, why use the TV style features on the toy molds (such as the TV style 1A head instead of the superior movie style).

As for Big West being dicks, come on now, all they're trying to do is get their propety handled properly after a 20+ year old fubar'd contract. HG are the ones being dicks trying to prevent anyone from releasing items which they themselves have no rights to.

The reason they used the TV style head is simple: Remolding is expensive. It's same reason the Shadow Fighter Super Poseable has the regular Alpha shoulders.

As far as DYRL goes, HG licensed the international merchandising rights from Tatsunoko. As far as the movie itself, it's still in dispute. Once the rightful heir of the rights to the movie itself is determined, HG wants to bring it over and make it available to the US audience. We heard this from Tommy Yune's mouth. This is important for the merchandise, not the movie itself. Toys, models, floor wax, whatever.

The big annoucement was NOT supposed to be a US release of DYRL on DVD. Overzealous Macross fans inferred that, when the big annoucement was clearly the new Robotech show.

Sorry.

P.S. I was standing right there for the whole panel and I was sitting right next to Tommy Yune for dinner. As soon as I find a USB cable, I can upload pics from the panel. Have nice night.

[Macross_Fanboy]

I went to AX today, and apparently, Harmony Gold may just release Macross DYRL?, I asked Tom Bateman if they would do English dubs, and he said yes and that he'd like Dan Woren to do Roy's voice. I got the impression that there will be a dubbed DYRL? carrying the title of "Robotech."

[eugimon]

I went to AX today, and apparently, Harmony Gold may just release Macross DYRL?, I asked Tom Bateman if they would do English dubs, and he said yes and that he'd like Dan Woren to do Roy's voice. I got the impression that there will be a dubbed DYRL? carrying the title of "Robotech."

hmmmm, that does not sound good... I was hoping they would keep it under Macross and not edit it. But if they are going to release it under Robotech then I'm guessing it will be edited pretty heavily, footage and story.

oh well, pretty much what I was expecting. Guess I'll be hanging onto my bootleg DYRL DVD a while longer.

[Opus]

I really don't understand why everyone thinks that Big West is so great and noble. They're a corperation just like HG and in the same position would probably behave exactly the same. They'd both bend you over and pork you for a $.

If HG is really entitled to what they say they are than I say more power to em. If I don't like what they produce I'll keep on importing Just like I did with TFormers reissues.

[Ginrai]

I went to AX today, and apparently, Harmony Gold may just release Macross DYRL?, I asked Tom Bateman if they would do English dubs, and he said yes and that he'd like Dan Woren to do Roy's voice.  I got the impression that there will be a dubbed DYRL? carrying the title of "Robotech."

That is not at all what Tom Bateman said. He said IF (BIG IF) the rights to the movie were straightened then it would definitely be dubbed. Not the merchandising rights (which HG owns), but the movie rights. They did NOT say they had the movie rights. They said they had the MERCHANDISING rights. Toys. Models. Mugs. Floor wax. NOT the movie.

They absolutely did not say that they would make it into Robotech if they got the rights to the movie.

Note that everything HG has released as DYRL has been DYRL and not Robotech at all. I got the convention exclusive Strike Valkyrie. It says Hikaru Ichijo, not Rick Hunter.

They didn't say it would be Robotech. I was there. I sat next to Tommy Yune at dinner and talked to him for a couple hours, and we have a video recording of the panel and Q&A outside in the hall right next to me. Wait until we get the right cables and you can see it all yourselves.

P.S. He said if the movie got a US release, it would be dubbed, not that the Robotech cast would dub it. There's a difference.

Edit to include the word "said" which I forgot in the first sentence.

Edited July 4, 2004 by Ginrai

[Keith]

I really don't understand why everyone thinks that Big West is so great and noble. They're a corperation just like HG and in the same position would probably behave exactly the same. They'd both bend you over and pork you for a $.

If HG is really entitled to what they say they are than I say more power to em. If I don't like what they produce I'll keep on importing Just like I did with TFormers reissues.

Aside from directing you over to the licensing debate, the gist of it is this:

Big West is the actual creating company (as they have Studio Nue in tow), and the rights they fight for are the rightful creative rights such as designs, concepts, stories, etc.

HG was involved in none of this, they got their rights from Tatsunoko whom paid for the production, but none of that included giving them ownership to creative copyrights, just distribution of what they helped pay to make (i.e. selling the TV series pre-existing animation, and apparently DYRL's as well). What they're trying to turn that into is that they own creative rights, and not just distribution rights (i.e. since they paid to help produce the animation from Macross, they somehow own the concepts, designs, & story there in, while all they actually own is just the produced product).

So yes, is this matter Big West is the "nobler" side.

[Ginrai]

I was just trying to clear up the misconceptions from Anime Expo. I'm not going to debate whether or not Tatsunoko overstepped their bounds.

The fact is that HG did NOT say they were releasing the movie. Just merchandise from the movie. There's a big difference. Are we clear?

P.S. You forgot Artland. You know. Ishiguro Noboru's company. The guy who directed SDF Macross. Yeah.

[eugimon]

I was just trying to clear up the misconceptions from Anime Expo. I'm not going to debate whether or not Tatsunoko overstepped their bounds.

The fact is that HG did NOT say they were releasing the movie. Just merchandise from the movie. There's a big difference. Are we clear?

P.S. You forgot Artland. You know. Ishiguro Noboru's company. The guy who directed SDF Macross. Yeah.

that's cool dude... the previous post from macross_fanboy went in an entirely different direction... glad you cleared things up.

[Opus]

I really don't understand why everyone thinks that Big West is so great and noble. They're a corperation just like HG and in the same position would probably behave exactly the same. They'd both bend you over and pork you for a $.

If HG is really entitled to what they say they are than I say more power to em. If I don't like what they produce I'll keep on importing Just like I did with TFormers reissues.

Aside from directing you over to the licensing debate, the gist of it is this:

Big West is the actual creating company (as they have Studio Nue in tow), and the rights they fight for are the rightful creative rights such as designs, concepts, stories, etc.

HG was involved in none of this, they got their rights from Tatsunoko whom paid for the production, but none of that included giving them ownership to creative copyrights, just distribution of what they helped pay to make (i.e. selling the TV series pre-existing animation, and apparently DYRL's as well). What they're trying to turn that into is that they own creative rights, and not just distribution rights (i.e. since they paid to help produce the animation from Macross, they somehow own the concepts, designs, & story there in, while all they actually own is just the produced product).

So yes, is this matter Big West is the "nobler" side.

See, that's just it. None of us knows who owns what but since but since some people don't like what HG has done with what they believe to be thiers they assume too much.

It's possible that Big West is the villian trying to renig on rights they gave away 20 years ago. we don't and may never know.

I'm not tring to start a fight, just to debate the subject from as many angles as possible. Devil's Advocate is what I do best.

[eugimon]

I really don't understand why everyone thinks that Big West is so great and noble. They're a corperation just like HG and in the same position would probably behave exactly the same. They'd both bend you over and pork you for a $.

If HG is really entitled to what they say they are than I say more power to em. If I don't like what they produce I'll keep on importing Just like I did with TFormers reissues.

Nah, I don't think BW is noble or anything resembling that...I just happen to like the Macross version of Macross and not Robotech... and I know that BW would release it as Macross and not Robotech.

For me, Robotech was an edited and watered down version of Macross that really didn't do the series justice...

Furthermore, macross was clearly aimed at an older audience than Robotech. There are several scenes that are more graphic, violent and mature than I think would be appropriate for a kid friendly Robotech.

I just prefer to see material as was intended by the person or people who created it. And once again, I know that BW (evil capitalist pigs that they are) is the most likely to present the material in that fashion.

So really, if HG fixes things with BW and they bring the Macross license to america devoid of any censoring or editing... and treat the material with respect, I'll have no problems giving them my money...

But, the way they have treated even loyal Robotech fans in the past the MPC VF-1, the shoddy DVDs and then the "remastered" DVDs... leads me to think that this just won't happen.

[Radd]

I'm skeptical until we hear something from Big West. Harmony Gold has made too many claims that were either debunked or they backpeddled off of for me to take this news at face value.

The

Harmony Gold or Tatsunoko figured this out recently

thing is highly suspect, given the history here.

I'm not dismissing this all outright, I'm simply taking it with a grain of salt.

I really don't understand why everyone thinks that Big West is so great and noble. They're a corperation just like HG and in the same position would probably behave exactly the same. They'd both bend you over and pork you for a $.

Spoken like a true cynic.

I hold no such pretence that Big West loves me and will send me a Christmas card the moment the evil Harmony Grinch is foiled from keeping good old Santa West from paying a visit, but be reaslistic, some companies are better than others. Some companies deliver better products than others. Some companies treat the artistic integrity of their work better than others.

Neither Big West nor Harmony Gold are without fault, but those who dislike HG and adore BW have reason. Look at how long it took to get a decent, uncut, subtitled copy of SDF Macross that wasn't stuck with two episodes of the cut up, edited episodes of Robotech, jacking up the price of the series by forcing you to get only two episodes a tape instead of 4. Look at the pricing and quality of the MPC compared to that of Yamato and Bandai's products. Look at the judgements of the Tokyo District Court cases and compare those to Harmony Gold's claims over the years.

Again, I'm not saying Big West is a flawless, loving company. I'm simply saying Macross fans have had far less crap thrown at them from that side.

So really, if HG fixes things with BW and they bring the Macross license to america devoid of any censoring or editing... and treat the material with respect, I'll have no problems giving them my money...

I agree.

[Cowboy17]

Harmony Gold does NOT own the DYRL rights (to the animation) and this was cleared up after their panel by a fansubber who had a laptop with him at the panel and reported it on irc moments later after I asked him to go up to the HG guys and ask the question. This was the HG rep's word for word response:

20:03] <name omitted> "until tetsunoko and big west work out there differences, we cant acquire them"

Straight from the mouth of HG when asked SPECIFICALLY if they owned any rights to the DYRL animation. So that puts this one to bed, for now.

And by the way....the toynami veritechs are a superior toy to the yamatos. The yamatos merely look better.

[JELEINEN]

Just realizing you have the rights after 20 years is very suspicious. HG and/or Tatsunoko must have the world's crappiest lawyers working for them if this is the case. Not saying it can't be true, but it does insenuate a high level of incompetence if it is.

And by the way....the toynami veritechs are a superior toy to the yamatos. The yamatos merely look better.

Thanks! I needed a good laugh to pick me up this morning.

[Nightbat]

20:03] <name omitted> "until tetsunoko and big west work out there differences, we cant acquire them"

Straight from the mouth of HG when asked SPECIFICALLY if they owned any rights to the DYRL animation. So that puts this one to bed, for now.

In other words: HG wants to, but simply can't

And by the way....the toynami veritechs are a superior toy to the yamatos.  The yamatos merely look better.

merely an opinion? or a fact?

this statement could also be true for the Bandai's -> The MPC just looks better

[Roy Focker]

Just realizing you have the rights after 20 years is very suspicious. HG and/or Tatsunoko must have the world's crappiest lawyers working for them if this is the case. Not saying it can't be true, but it does insenuate a high level of incompetence if it is.

Breaking News:

Harmony Gold's lawyers have just discovered that Tatsunoko's name was on the Louisiana Purchase!

[the white drew carey]

Breaking News:

Harmony Gold's lawyers have just discovered that Tatsunoko's name was on the  Louisiana Purchase!

LOL!

I'm in the same boat as RADD on this.

A little bit of history for kids who don't know:

2 years ago at AX, HG held their Robotech panel which included forthcoming designs from RT 2004 (now "Shadow Force"), and little presentions in several things, including the SDF: Macross release. It was a fairly straightforward and nothing terribly exciting happened.

It wasn't until the Q&A session that things heated up. Obviously HG trolled MW and found out that many members would be attending with questions in hand, particularly about HG's claims of ownership.

Tommy Yune replied with a well-planned and choreographed presentation including graphs and such on the overhead projector, in complete anticipation of any challenges to their claims.

So why are most Macross fans pissed at HG? Because half of the stuff he said makes no sense and, as I said earlier, was simply designed to placate RT fans who feared that their show would be forever lost. Legally and Logically, what HG said made little or no sense- Not only the specifics of the deal, but the fact that HG themselves showed a complete misunderstanding of all types of ownership law. (see the licensing debate thread for more fun. a full transcript of that event is somewhere in there).

Fast-Foward 2 years and HG is now claiming some long-lost clause regarding DYRL gives them the merchandising rights to DYRL toys. Therefore neatly circumventing any and all claims that the DYRL valks, redesigned AFTER the original contract between BW and TP which, in turn, granted HG certain merchandising rights to the TV series.

Surprisingly, it wasn't until after HG made their initial claims and it was argued back that their agreement with TP doesn't cover DYRL that this part of the "DYRL Agreement" is discovered. You can see why many of us who have been following this for years are leery of HG's suddenly-found information.

Edited July 4, 2004 by the white drew carey