Anime caracters physionomy question

[Montarvillois]

Here's a question I've had for as long as I've been a fan of mangas/anime. While most of the caracters are from asia (japan, china etc...) and have asian names (hikaru, Isamu etc...) none of them appear to have asian caracteristics (black hair, eye shape...).

Please don't get me wrong, not that I mind at all, I just find it curious. Is there any reason for this ?

[RFT]

It's an interesting question, but possibly one skewed by viewpoint. Manga/anime style characters do display some asian physical features- small noses and chins- so it;s a question of what the defining characterisics are to the artist in question. When I think of Initial D's characters (it's the manga/anime i'm most familiar with, so sue me..) they may not look what I percive as "japanese", but they don't look "western" either.

[Stamen0083]

I get this distinct feeling that the Japanese, while proud of who they are, hate themselves for the way they look and thus want to manifest their ideal looks through their character designs.

Or simply, they want their people to look good so people will be attracted to buying the products.

PS: Is it just me, or do the attractive Japanese women don't usually show up to promote things? I remember these chicks dressed up as Zeons to promote Gundam: The Ride and I couldn't help thinking "What kind of goblins created these people?"

[Roy Focker]

They have asian traits you just have to look carefully. The eyes (in Macross) are slightly slanted for the asian characters compared to the other ones. While black hair looks like the hair color most asians are born with a lot of them color their hair.

Look at Lisa in Robotech a light brown haired white chick but if you really look at her you can see the Misa is Japanese. Her eyes have slight slant and she has a slight Japanese looking nose. Compare Misa's face to Vanessa's or Shammie's and you can see that Misa is supposed to be asian.

[Montarvillois]

I get this distinct feeling that the Japanese, while proud of who they are, hate themselves for the way they look and thus want to manifest their ideal looks through their character designs.

While a plausible explanation, that would be very sad...

You can see sometimes that efforts to "asianize" some caracters are there ie Shin Kudo looks abit asian, Basara in M7 looks asian but still, Myung in M+ looks a bit asian but still, these are very faint traits.

I just find this very confusing

(and yes by the way, I am caucasian but I admire asian beauty)

[Montarvillois]

Look at Lisa in Robotech a light brown haired white chick but if you really look at her you can see the Misa is Japanese.  Her eyes have slight slant and she has a slight Japanese looking nose.  Compare Misa's face to Vanessa's or Shammie's and you can see that Misa is supposed to be asian.

then again, why slight slant eyes and slight japanese looking nose, why not go all the way and make her asian if it is intended indeed?

Strange stuff.

Edited July 2, 2004 by Montarvillois

[Roy Focker]

Some of the asian characters like Isamu and Myung are only half asian so it makes sense for them to look the way they do.

I've seen asians of the same ethic backgrounds and they don't all have the same asianish features to the same degree. Misa and company don't have to look like sterotypes. Then again look at Roy he's a super sterotype of a caucasian, squarish jar, strong facial features blonde hair, tanned, tall.

[motley]

the japanese also see themselves as "white' in comparison to other ethnic groups, placing themselves more in line with caucasians than with most other asian ethinc groups. part of this mind set is also why characters of african descent rarely used to show up in anime, and also used to be heavily caricatured. this has changed, somewhat, of late, but most of more recent characters still have heavily stereotypic looks, and there's still a heavy stigma against darker skin tone in japanese society.

edit spelling

Edited July 2, 2004 by motley

[Agent ONE]

I am not qualified to comment on how the Japenese view themselves. I always saw anime as a way of not acnoleging race at all. IE everyone is sorta the same.

[eugimon]

I get this distinct feeling that the Japanese, while proud of who they are, hate themselves for the way they look and thus want to manifest their ideal looks through their character designs.

Or simply, they want their people to look good so people will be attracted to buying the products.

PS: Is it just me, or do the attractive Japanese women don't usually show up to promote things? I remember these chicks dressed up as Zeons to promote Gundam: The Ride and I couldn't help thinking "What kind of goblins created these people?"

please, this topic always comes up every so often, and it always seems like it's non-asians that bring it up. Frankly, this just smacks of stereotypes... there are many different asian phenotypes... even among the japanese ethnic groups, there are people with varied ancestry there are japanese with large eyes with smaller eyes, short asians, tall asians etc. Why should animators be forced to draw asians the way YOU prefer, short with slanty eyes? Maybe with opium pipes? doing laundry? Perhaps there weren't enough bonsai trees for you?

Maybe we should rename all characters Chan as well and put them in chinese outfits with top knots so that you'll feel better about it?

You never hear these sort of things levied against white people

why do white people keep animating their women as small and waifish when the average white woman is large and overweight? it's like they want to be asian or something...

why do blondes dye their hair brunnette from time to time, aren't they proud of their nordic ancestry? why are they trying to be asian?

Why is a half asian playing lana lang on smallville? Perhaps white people don't think they're attractive enough and need to cast an attractive asian in that role?

And yes, "attractive japanese" don't show up to promote things. They're far more likely to be off in a library studying or trying to find a nice white man who will treat them right.

[eugimon]

the japanese also see themselves as "white' in comparison to other ethnic groups, placing themselves more in line with caucasians than with most other asian ethinc groups. part of this mind set is also why characters of african descent rarely used to show up in anime, and also used to be heavily caricatured. this has changed, somewhat, of late, but most of more recent characters still have heavily stereotypic looks, and there's still a heavy stigma against darker skin tone in japanese society.

edit spelling

you need to also keep in mind the asian stigma against manual labor... dark skin is indicitive of day laborers... something that chinese/koreans/japanese both look down on... it's no more saying they want to be white than saying that caucasian facination with tanning means that they want to be black.

And why would people of african decent show up in anime? It's not like they show up in western shows... how much ethnic variety was on Friends? Frasier? Seinfeld? You can pretty much list the asians shown on western tv on one hand. And it's not like westerners portray asians in some sort of enlightened way either... and we're talking about a racial diverse culture/society that has been dealing with race issues for 300 years.

Why then, why are you looking for racial diversity from a mostly homogeneous society in a product that was intended the same society?

If anything, why aren't you asking why american shows, which are heavily syndicated and sold to other other countries, don't have more racial and cultural diversity?

Honestly, these same arguments are NEVER brought against western productions.

[Stamen0083]

Why should animators be forced to draw asians the way YOU prefer, short with slanty eyes? Maybe with opium pipes? doing laundry? Perhaps there weren't enough bonsai trees for you?

[snip]

Are you replying to *me* directly, or to the thread in general?

It has better not be, because I'm just pointing out something I observe, it has nothing to do with race or how the Japanese may feel about themselves.

As far as I know, most, if not all, Japanese are very proud of themselves, their heritage, their genetics, et cetera. I did not say for a fact that they hate themselves. I just said that it's a feeling I get from anime.

Take it or leave it.

FYI, I'm Asian.

[MSW]

Here's a question I've had for as long as I've been a fan of mangas/anime. While most of the caracters are from asia (japan, china etc...) and have asian names (hikaru, Isamu etc...) none of them appear to have asian caracteristics (black hair, eye shape...).

Please don't get me wrong, not that I mind at all, I just find it curious. Is there any reason for this ?

First of all anime and manga are not ment to be near photo-real representations of characters, places, and/or events...its a style used to tell a story...its a style that was inspired by early Disney animation..Mickey Mouse looks nothing like a real mouse, and thats because a mouse drawn realisticly would have a hard time convaying the actions, charms, and emotions that the Mickey Mouse styleized representaion can do.

It's not some deep seated desire of the Japanese animators to look different, nothing of the sort...the reason the characters are designed that way, the reason they are given the odd hair coloring and all that is because anime and manga use styleized representations of characters inorder to easily and quickly convay actions, emotions, and motivations...it also allows the viewer to quickly tell characters apart ...

Character designers, whom develop the look for each character in an anime, are largely driven not by the characters nationality or what they would look like if real...but by the characters personnality, by the characters motivations, by who the characters are rather then the physicality of realisam...it's the same for pretty much all forms of animation...Isamu from Macross Plus has wild hair and larger "wild man" eyes then the stoicly reserved, angular featured Guild...notice how the characters are designed, how they are drawn, are reflections of thier personnality.

[eugimon]

[snip]

Are you replying to *me* directly, or to the thread in general?

It has better not be, because I'm just pointing out something I observe, it has nothing to do with race or how the Japanese may feel about themselves.

As far as I know, most, if not all, Japanese are very proud of themselves, their heritage, their genetics, et cetera. I did not say for a fact that they hate themselves. I just said that it's a feeling I get from anime.

Take it or leave it.

FYI, I'm Asian.

Please, yeah I'm talking to you. You start off with:

I get this distinct feeling that the Japanese, while proud of who they are, hate themselves for the way they look and thus want to manifest their ideal looks through their character designs.

And then you say that you're not saying they hate themselves... please, if you hate the way you look, you hate yourself.

And frankly, I don't care if you're asian or not. As long as you run around spouting the same racist, stereotypical nonesense, I'll lump you in just the same, based on you attitude and beliefs.

You're still expecting asians to be lumped in under a specific look and when they don't fit that look or attitude you say they must hate themselves.... how is that any different than saying japanese people must want to be white?

Really, this reminds me of mallrats:

"They're saying deep inside, we all want to be white!"

"Well isn't that true?"

difference is, mallrats is a comedy.

Edited July 2, 2004 by eugimon

[eugimon]

It's not some deep seated desire of the Japanese animators to look different, nothing of the sort...the reason the characters are designed that way, the reason they are given the odd hair coloring and all that is because anime and manga use styleized representations of characters inorder to easily and quickly convay actions, emotions, and motivations...it also allows the viewer to quickly tell characters apart ...

Character designers, whom develop the look for each character in an anime, are largely driven not by the characters nationality or what they would look like if real...but by the characters personnality, by the characters motivations, by who the characters are rather then the physicality of realisam...it's the same for pretty much all forms of animation...Isamu from Macross Plus has wild hair and larger "wild man" eyes then the stoicly reserved, angular featured Guild...notice how the characters are designed, how they are drawn, are reflections of thier personnality.

Thank you for the logical and well reasoned response.

[Stamen0083]

Please, yeah I'm talking to you. You start off with:

I get this distinct feeling that the Japanese, while proud of who they are, hate themselves for the way they look and thus want to manifest their ideal looks through their character designs.

And then you say that they hate themselves... please, if you hate the way you look, you hate yourself.

Where exactly did I state for a fact that the Japanese hate themselves? Like I've said before, and reiterated again, "I get a feeling." It doesn't mean it's right.

As long as you run around spouting the same racist, stereotypical nonesense, I'll lump you in just the same, based on you attitude and beliefs.

Feel free to do so when I run around spouting racial slurs. Until that point, though, read my posts carefully to realize that I give an uneducated observation, not an opinion.

You're still expecting asians to be lumped in under a specific look and when they don't fit that look or attitude you say they must hate themselves....

I expect nothing from no one. If they look like that, fine. If they don't look like that, fine. I don't make my anime watching decision based on how their supposedly Asian characters look.

Edited July 2, 2004 by Stamen0083

[JsARCLIGHT]

It was always my impression that manga characters are drawn with large eyes so they can be more expressive. The eyes are the windows to the soul after all and the larger you draw someone's eyes the more range of expression you have. You can exaggerate sad and happy. This also carries over to the mouths of some japanese manga characters as they also possess the ability to go from tiny to 1/2 of the head in one emotional change.

I have also always thought of anime and manga drawing styles to be a hybrid of the hard edged, realistic style that american comics tend to use most of the time and the fanciful cartoony disproportion of the Disney and Warner Brothers characters. They blend the two quite seemlessly. As for the whole race card issue I think Agent One hit the nail on the head, race is not present. The characters are the characters. When the manga artists want to present race as an issue they tend to go overboard (like previously mentioned about "dark skinned" characters) and press the character into stereotype. It also lies in the back of my mind that japan and a good deal of the world are corrupted by Hollywood. America's number one export to all countries both enemy and friend is Hollywood fantasy... and the vast majority of american celluloid fantasy features caucasian characters in the leading roles so on some levels anime and manga may be unknowingly emulating Hollywood. Who knows... all I know is it was a unique art form to the Japanese until the rest of the world got ahold of it and started copying the "anime" style and mutating it into a new form of cartoon I like to call Anglo Anime (shows like Totally Spies and Teen Titans are prime examples). But that is another issue alltogether.

[JELEINEN]

MSW is essentially correct. It's a style thing that started with Tezuka immitating Disney designs. It's basically stuck in varying degrees.

[Otaku-Smeghead]

Most of the Characters I see in DBZ look Japanese

[Montarvillois]

Most of the Characters I see in DBZ look Japanese

This guy doesn'T look japanese to me !!!

Anywho,

I think I got the picture. I apologize if that topic stirred some s**t between eugimon and stamen, I should not have asked this question maybe.

[Californium]

Isn't PatLabor's Kanuka Clancy supposed to be American or Japanese-American? The way she is drawn always looked more Asian than the other Patlabor characters to me.

[Nightbat]

You can find a good description about the how's and why's japanese character drawing

HERE

[Roy Focker]

Interesting debate and all but keep it friendly.

[eugimon]

And then you say that they hate themselves... please, if you hate the way you look, you hate yourself.

Where exactly did I state for a fact that the Japanese hate themselves? Like I've said before, and reiterated again, "I get a feeling." It doesn't mean it's right.

As long as you run around spouting the same racist, stereotypical nonesense, I'll lump you in just the same, based on you attitude and beliefs.

Feel free to do so when I run around spouting racial slurs. Until that point, though, read my posts carefully to realize that I give an uneducated observation, not an opinion.

Sorry, I didn't realize for you there was such a distinction between feeling and thought.

I feel that japanese hate the way they look.

I think japanese hate the way they look.

so different, you're right. my bad.

In the future I will realize that everything you say is a "feeling" and I completely agree with your assesment of "uneducated."

[Stamen0083]

Sorry, I didn't realize for you there was such a distinction between feeling and thought.

Observation and thought. Not feeling and thought.

It doesn't matter either way. I'm tired of trying to explain myself to someone who's unable to comprehend.

Whatever.

Edited July 3, 2004 by Stamen0083

[Sundown]

please, this topic always comes up every so often, and it always seems like it's non-asians that bring it up. Frankly, this just smacks of stereotypes... there are many different asian phenotypes... even among the japanese ethnic groups, there are people with varied ancestry there are japanese with large eyes with smaller eyes, short asians, tall asians etc. Why should animators be forced to draw asians the way YOU prefer, short with slanty eyes? Maybe with opium pipes? doing laundry? Perhaps there weren't enough bonsai trees for you?

Sigh. Chill buddy.

Asian here and I gotta agree with Stamen0083. Anime characters generally look more Caucasian and "white" to me than they do Asian... even when the character is supposedly undeniably Japanese. There's been more anime in recent years with Asian characters that do bear remarkable Asian resemblance, beyond "slanted" eyes or other characturistic Asian features-- the character designs actually capture what makes an Asian person look so, without needing to over exaggerate (ie. some of the cast in Patlabor)-- but anime staple in the 80's were full of Asian characters that looked... well, purty farking white.

It's no secret that Japanese society holds Western features up as one particular ideal of beauty... and most anime characters simply do not look at all like any Asian folks I know.

And dag. Enough with the vehement Asian angst. It's not a witchhunt here. For one of the most successful and best assimilated minority groups in the States, we sure can be whiney and angry folk. Abercrobe and Fitch anyone? Ie: up in arms about vastly over-priced T-Shirts that we're lucky enough to be able to afford and acquire a taste for in the first place...while other ethnicities have um... real issues. Not that we don't, but we sure as hell seem to feel the need to speak out at all the lame times about some of the dumbest things.

Back on topic. Big reason why anime characters appear Western simply lies in the fact that when you simplify human features into a drawing, they tend to look somewhat Western. And when you take an amalgam of all sorts of human features and come up with a hybridized, raceless, universal face that's aesthetically pleasing, it still... ends up looking a little bit Western (or a little bit Happa I guess). It almost seems that one has to go *out* of their way to draw characters that would look recognizably Asian (or certain other ethnicities for that matter). That, and the fact that the Disney influence still remains strong after all these years... and that Japanese folks seem to think that saucer sized eyes look good.

-Al

Edited July 3, 2004 by Sundown

[Roy Focker]

Like all Mods I love the sound of my voice and get ticked off when others start to ingore it.

Execute this topic my Ninjas!