Which do you prefer?

[Agent ONE]

....if I had to go through life having seen only one of the two, I'd pick SDF Macross.

I didn't understand that to be the question.

I pick DYRL. Story is better, animation is better. Characters are WAY better.

[Hurin]

You DYRL lovers are choosing flash over substance!

It could be argued that those choosing the tv series are choosing quantity over quality.

It could also be argued (as it already has) that the quality of the movie depends on fore-knowledge of the series.

With a few rare exceptions, I don't think many people would find the movie nearly as enjoyable if they weren't bringing over the emotional/nostalgic attachments that they already formed while watching the TV series. But, again, there are exceptions.

I wouldn't be suprised if there were a correlation between those who prefer the movie, and those who would prefer action films to drama films. Neither side is right or wrong since this is about entertainment preferences. But those who are more into visceral, pulse-pounding, fast-paced entertainment will probably prefer DYRL. But those who aren't as "action-oriented" will probably see more to love in the TV Series.

I prefer the TV Series. But if I need a quick Macross fix, it's a lot easier to just put in DYRL and enjoy what I consider to be the "highlight reel" of the TV series. DRL looks better and has many of the same themes and events. But none of those themes or events would really mean a damn to me if they weren't, in my mind, thoroughly (though subconsciously) entwined with the more carefully developed and intimately told story of the TV series.

[Hurin]

all the main stuff gets worked out in DYRL and certain aspects, like the technology and structure seem much more thought out than in the series...

Gotta disagree there. DYRL can be an utterly confusing movie to someone who isn't already familiar with the overall story. At least, it has been to many.

Obviously, for me this is at the point of "agree to disagree". . . but I would humbly suggest that those who prefer DYRL aren't giving the TV series enough credit for "priming" them for DYRL, thereby making DYRL as effective and enjoyable as it is for them.

Again, however, I know there are some who saw DYRL first and just plain loved it from the start. And, I'm sure there are just people who enjoy brevity, beautiful visuals, whiz-bang action, and a more direct story. To each their own.

Both are wonderful in their own way. I just think one wouldn't be so good without the other.

Edited June 29, 2004 by Hurin

[Agent ONE]

... DYRL can be an utterly confusing movie to someone who isn't already familiar with the overall story. ...

So true.

[treatment]

all the main stuff gets worked out in DYRL and certain aspects, like the technology and structure seem much more thought out than in the series...

Gotta disagree there. DYRL can be an utterly confusing movie to someone who isn't already familiar with the overall story. At least, it has been to many.

Obviously, for me this is at the point of "agree to disagree". . . but I would humbly suggest that those who prefer DYRL aren't giving the TV series enough credit for "priming" them for DYRL, thereby making DYRL as effective and enjoyable as it is for them.

Again, however, I know there are some who saw DYRL first and just plain loved it from the start. And, I'm sure there are just people who enjoy brevity, beautiful visuals, whiz-bang action, and a more direct story. To each their own.

Both are wonderful in their own way. I just think one wouldn't be so good without the other.

well fwiw, both DYRL and SDF-TV can also be utterly confusing to those who have only watched or only got exposed to the Robotech version of it. More so with SDF-TV since it's more easily available than DYRL.

[Sundown]

well fwiw, both DYRL and SDF-TV can also be utterly confusing to those who have only watched or only got exposed to the Robotech version of it. More so with SDF-TV since it's more easily available than DYRL.

DYRL was utterly confusing the first time I'd watched it, the only previous experience I had with Macross being Robotech. Then again, could be because the audio was garbled and it was subtitled... in Chinese. Which I can't read worth a lick. But I imagine that watching SDF wouldn't have produced the same sort of utter and total confusion.

-Al

[treatment]

well fwiw, both DYRL and SDF-TV can also be utterly confusing to those who have only watched or only got exposed to the Robotech version of it. More so with SDF-TV since it's more easily available than DYRL.

DYRL was utterly confusing the first time I'd watched it, the only previous experience I had with Macross being Robotech. Then again, could be because the audio was garbled and it was subtitled... in Chinese. Which I can't read worth a lick. But I imagine that watching SDF wouldn't have produced the same sort of utter and total confusion.

-Al

hahaha!

in chinese subtitles.

that's way too funny, man. prolly as funny as watching/listening to COTB for the first time.

[Hurin]

well fwiw, both DYRL and SDF-TV can also be utterly confusing to those who have only watched or only got exposed to the Robotech version of it. More so with SDF-TV since it's more easily available than DYRL.

Yes, but I'd urge you to compare how each begins:

The series has a nice voice-over setting the stage. The world situation is described and the origins of the Macross are detailed. The characters are introduced. . . and then the Zentraedi arrive and we witness the beginning of the war. As the series goes on, we discover more and more about them.

The movie begins with the Zentran discussing "miclones" and other things that we have no clue about (unless you've seen the TV series). We enter the movie with the Macross already halfway across the solar system and doing battle with an enemy which just simply is. There's a city inside the ship. Supposedly, the earth has already been at least "heavily damaged." There is no expostion setting the scene, explaining who the players are, or just how things got to this point.

Now, that's not to say that DYRL doesn't have its reasons for being less readily understandable. It obviously had only two hours to work with instead of 36 (?)episodes. But, in my opinion, you can't really say that they are equally confusing. SDF Macross makes a great deal of sense if watched from the beginning.

And, of course, the confusion engendered in making the transition between Robotech and either SDF or DYRL isn't quite the same thing as there being a confusing or unclear narrative. One is the result of a script and time constraints. The other can be generously termed "fanboy dysphoria."

Really, I think DYRL is just meant to "wash over you" and you're not supposed to think about it too much ("Hey, why can Misa read that language when even the Zentran and Meltran can't?"). It's beautiful, and entertaining, but doesn't bear as much critical scrutiny as the TV series.

[treatment]

We must not forget that SDF-TV was a local and international hit, and it was still very fresh on the japanese-viewers minds when DYRL-movie was released 20 years ago. And DYRL is/was a movie, not a tv-series.

That should pretty much explain the lack of the nitty background tv-details in the movie because everyone knew of the TV-series to accomodate and understand the stuff in DYRL.

Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it translated well nor was understandable to Western audiences that have only seen the Robotech-version.

[Hurin]

That should pretty much explain the lack of the nitty background tv-details in the movie because everyone knew of the TV-series to accomodate and understand the stuff in DYRL.

Yes. That is true. Now it's really just about the debate regarding whether DYRL depends on familiarity with the TV series for more than just plot background. . . but also emotional depth, character motivation, and a sense of narrative consistency. But that's where I think many here will just have to agree to disagree.

Edited June 30, 2004 by Hurin

[Radd]

Tell us all exactly what would be confusing about DYRL? without having seen the TV series first? I see lots of people tossing that idea around, but not backing up exactly why it would be confusing.

Sure, a lot of little background details, and the developement of secondary and tertiary characters is cut out, but it seems to me that nothing important to the main situation, or Hikaru, Misa, and Minmay's story is left unanswered by the movie.

I took the "well, it's shorter, and missing things, so it must be confusing to those who haven't seen the tv series!" idea for granted myself, but the more I think about it, the less I believe it.

[Hurin]

Tell us all exactly what would be confusing about DYRL? without having seen the TV series first? I see lots of people tossing that idea around, but not backing up exactly why it would be confusing.

Is this directed at me in particular? I'll try. . .

Just watching it with friends, I'm bombarded with the following questions:

Who are these guys? (The Zentraedi)

Why are they attacking us? (Because they followed the Macross to us)

What is the Macross? (The big ship we have)

Why do we have it? (It crashed on earth)

<A few minutes pass>

What planet is that? (Jupiter)

Why Jupiter? (They are on their way back from a bad fold operation)

What is a "fold operation?" (blah blah blah. . .)

<A few minutes pass>

What the hell is Misa's problem?

And so on. . .

Yes, you are correct that the core of the story is there. But so much else is left there with no explanation that those unfamiliar with the TV series are just wondering wtf is going on.

H

[treatment]

Ime, when I shared my DYRL-copy to some anime-newbie friends, the only thing they did not understand at first was how the SDF-1 got into space. So after they watched it, I just made them a copy of the DYRL-game footage to answer the question. These people don't know nor have any experiences watching Robotech or Macross, so they were pretty much fresh recruits.

[Radd]

It was not directed at anyone in particular. However, my rebuttal.

Who are these guys? (The Zentraedi)

Unimportant other than that they are a race of alien giants who seem to have attacked Earth. That's really all you need to know at the beginning of the movie, and it is explained in the movie. Later, the movie explains that there are two groups of giants, one all men and one all women. Even further along into the movie, it is explained that these two races were created by another race that also tampered with life on Earth.

All of it clearly explained in the movie.

Why are they attacking us?

It becomes clear soon enough that Earth was not their target, but it got caught up in a battle between the two groups of alien Giants. This is pointed out in the movie.

What is the Macross?

  Why do we have it?

I forget if the Macross' origins are ever explained in the movie, but the fact of the matter is that the origin of the Macross is unimportant to the plot of the movie. It is an Earth ship, apparently the only one to have escaped the bombardment of Earth. Why it was away from Earth is also unimportant to the story. It could be on it's way back to Earth after a failed military campaign against the giants, only to find Earth had been destroyed in their absense for all it matters. There could have been many Earthships like it, maybe it was the Flagship, it does not matter. All that matters is that it's an Earth military vessel on it's way back home.

What planet is that?

You mean the gas giant with the huge red spot?

Why Jupiter?

See my reply to why we have a spaceship. It's obvious that the Macross is on it's way back to Earth, this is even stated in the dialogue right towards the beginning of the movie.

What is a "fold operation?"

What's warp speed? What's hyperspace? When you see the Zentradi declaring a fold operation, and then warping to another desitionation, it should be obvious.

What the hell is Misa's problem

I still feel that the Hikaru, Misa, Minmay love triangle is handled much better in the movie. If your friends did not understand in the movie, it is unlikely that they'd understand it in the series.

[Radd]

I should point out that I know several people that got into Macross with DYRL? as their first exposure. They loved it and wheren't at all confused.

[mikeszekely]

You DYRL lovers are choosing flash over substance!

It could be argued that those choosing the tv series are choosing quantity over quality.

Except that we're arguing a general lack of quality in DYRL in everything except the visuals. You have a general lack of character development in DYRL (although that seems to work in Minmei's favor), and a plot that's as bastardized from SDF Macross as Robotech is. Yes, the Valkyries do look pretty in DYRL, but Macross was always supposed to be more than flashy space battle scenes.

[Radd]

You DYRL lovers are choosing flash over substance!

It could be argued that those choosing the tv series are choosing quantity over quality.

Except that we're arguing a general lack of quality in DYRL in everything except the visuals. You have a general lack of character development in DYRL (although that seems to work in Minmei's favor), and a plot that's as bastardized from SDF Macross as Robotech is. Yes, the Valkyries do look pretty in DYRL, but Macross was always supposed to be more than flashy space battle scenes.

I disagree, and I've stated that since the beginning. I believe the character developement and handling of the love triangle between Misa, Minmay, and Hikaru to be better in DYRL? than in the tv series.

More time for character developement does not always equate to better character developement. A common thought amongst Macross fans is that the character developement in the series MUST be better simply because the series is longer than the movie.

I challenge that notion.

[Keith]

While you do benefit more from DYRL by seeing the series first, it has more than enough plot & character developement to stand for anyone who hasn't seen the series (at least easily as much as any 2 hour stand alone movie). I think some just tend to be harsher on it because there is a much more in depth tv series version with events that can't possibly be included in two hours. Personally, I love to catch all the little placed & blended together TV elements that did make it into the film (of which there are many).

As long as you understand the points about the love triangle, the war with the aliens, and the love song, DYRL is doing its job.

[Hurin]

I should point out that I know several people that got into Macross with DYRL? as their first exposure. They loved it and wheren't at all confused.

Radd, you didn't have to answer each of those questions!

Look, the point is that many who watch DYRL are overwhelmed at the beginning. I'm not pulling that out of my $@%. It's a common reaction and I doubt many people would debate it. Hell, even some people who have already seen the TV series are confused! Yes, you are correct, many of the basic questions are answered as the film goes along. But the narrative of DYRL is such that there is a lot of "wtf" towards the beginning ("What the hell is a miclone? Who is that. . . and why should I give a crap what happens to her?") that is only alleviated towards the end. Before it starts making sense, a lot of us are already begging our girlfriends to please just hang in there for ten more minutes, because "I promise babe, it starts getting good now!"

Essentially, you seem to dismiss all the dropped elements as unimportant. So, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to address that since we obviously just disagree on what is important and what compromises a compelling and well-delivered narrative.

I've said all along, there are indeed people who saw DYRL first, and loved it. That doesn't change the fact that there are also a lot of people who see it and are completely confused. And I don't think it would be fair to just dismiss them as being dense.

At this point, I'll just refer everyone back to ewilen's post. He said it all perfectly. I'm just mucking it up.

H

Edited June 30, 2004 by Hurin

[nhyone]

Yes, you are correct, many of the basic questions are answered as the film goes along.  But the narrative of DYRL is such that there is a lot of "wtf" towards the beginning ("What the hell is a miclone?  Who is that. . . and why should I give a crap what happens to her?") that is only alleviated towards the end.

DYRL is not the only movie that overloads you so much at the start that you can't catch them all. Sometimes you just have to watch it again, or have someone babysit you. (Not you, but your friends)

On babysitting, I think you should answer only the questions that weren't answered in the movie later on.

Personally, I think Hikaru explained the situation pretty well when he and Minmay were trapped in the cargo hold. Before that, just enjoy the visuals!

[ewilen]

About the confusing elements which are cleared up later in the movie, you might compare this to other movies/stories which are confusing at first but which later reveal more of the background. In those cases, the mystery is deliberate, and often part of the "hook" designed to sustain interest. In DYRL, I don't think that's the case--the question of "who are the Zentradi?" is taken for granted by the story, even if it might not be known the viewer. In Japan, of course it would be known.

Compare how SDF Macross handles the question. When the Zentradi are introduced, nothing about them is especially puzzling or mysterious--what's crucial to the plot is that they're a bunch of militaristic aliens and they're investigating the SDF-1. Other details, such as what they say about reaction weaponry, or how they comment on human technology/society, raise some minor question marks but do not interfere with basic understanding of events. We aren't told that they're giants, but that's irrelevant to the plot thus far. At the end of the first episode, though, we learn that Valkyries can transform into giant robots. Why? Good question. This sparks interest and gets the viewer's mind turning. The answer comes as a dramatic payoff when the Zentradi pilot climbs out of the battlepod at the end of episode 2.

And so on. Various mysteries and/or problems are raised, creating tension and anticipation that carry on through arcs of varying length throughout the series. Among them: Hikaru's relationship to Minmay, later complicated by becoming a love triangle; deeper questions about the Zentradi's origins; the three Zentradi spies; hints of culture shock among the Zentradi; Millia's story; Hikaru's development as an officer and his attitudes toward the war; etc. Each is brought to the fore, allowed to percolate, and eventually resolved.

What I would say, along the lines of Keith's post, is that if you're already familiar with SDF Macross, DYRL generates a lot of interest by mixing up many of the plot elements and juxtaposing them in new configurations. However, without knowledge of SDF Macross, you're not going to get anything out of that. Instead, you will probably be confused by things like Max's fate after his battle with Millia. The fleeting and matter-of-fact way in which that story element gets resolved is a dramatic dud, even though it will amuse viewers who are in the know from SDF.

Edited June 30, 2004 by ewilen

[ewilen]

BTW, what's all this Jupiter stuff? Both the opening battle in DYRL and the later capture sequence all happen around Saturn.

Edited June 30, 2004 by ewilen

[Bub]

WOW the score is tied!! 30 - 30

... and the match goes on...

[Agent ONE]

Do the differences between TV and DYRL versions of Space War I iritate anyone?

When I saw DYRL for the first time I thought it was so much better than the TV show. I mean it was like the same thing, just drawn better and with all the goofy-ness taken out (no flying aricraft carriers or stupid color schemes). I also thought it was a better story. My GF was totally frustrated with the change in story though. She found it totally iritating that they would re-tell the story.

[ewilen]

No, I don't find it irritating. In fact, it's arguably more interesting to tell a markedly different version of the story than to just abbreviate the existing storyline into two hours. But I don't think it's a better story. And here I'm not talking about the continuity issues or lack of exposition--with a few exceptions, I prefer the version of events in SDF Macross.

[Agent ONE]

I think one huge strike against TVM is its affiliation with Robotech. I just get tired of Robotech fans getting confused with the Macross storyline, and sort of imagining that the Protoculture race and the Robotech Masters are like the same dudes... There are other points of confusion but that one chaps my hide.

[Radd]

Hurin, I was just trying to point out why I hold the views I do.

ewilen almost no movies, tv series, or OVAs, tell you everything about a story before it even begins. Even in SDF Macross you don't find out about the Protoculture and the genetic simularities between mankind and the Zentradi until late in the show. A lot of the stuff I pointed out was cleared up right at the beginning of DYRL? while Hikaru and Minmay were trapped together. Or befope that , even, with Minmay's speech between 'My Boyfriend's a Pilot' and Shao Pai Long'.

Agent ONE I agree with ewilen's take on that, it's interesting to see a complete retelling instead of a cropped down version of the original story. Of course, this depends on how good of a retelling it is. I think DYRL? is an excellent example. The Escaflowne movie on the other hand...

[Sundown]

More time for character developement does not always equate to better character developement. A common thought amongst Macross fans is that the character developement in the series MUST be better simply because the series is longer than the movie.

I challenge that notion.

Sure, but it's also arguable that more time for development gives more opportunities for better development... and the simple truth is many SDF fans are more compelled by the TV version of things. So it ain't better because it's longer... it's better in some eyes simply because of their subjective experience watching the thing.

To me, the plotline in DYRL just feels abrupt, choppy, chaotic. Same with the character development, which seems to be charactures of what are already charactures. To me, it just feels as if it's an attempt to cram the major plot points of the series into a two-hour movie-- which is exactly what it is-- rather than the telling of a story crafted intentionally for movie format. Few of the plot milestones are presented in a manner that allow them to really sink in, because by the time one's been reached, it's already time to jarringly move on to the next one. As a result, I think it comes across a little bit forced... and loses something narratively, at least it does here.

Sure, some questions get answered as the movie plays through, and others are left unanswered-- which is important or unimportant depending on your take on things. I know I consider who these Big Giant Fecking Aliens With Cauliflower Growing Out Of Their Heads are and why they're attacking us pretty farting important-- or what the Macross is exactly, and where it comes from, how special it seems, and given that it's the namesake of the SERIES... but it does remain that the pacing and development leaves a lot of initial confusion for the viewer-- in a way that doesn't appear to be a narrative device and is in vague danger of losing some viewers.

-Al

Edited July 1, 2004 by Sundown

[Panon]

Do the differences between TV and DYRL versions of Space War I iritate anyone?

To put it mildly. I can't stand DYRL's spin on things.

I have to fight to stop from rolling my eyes at how trite and hokey the whole "men vs women war" thing was.

I'd honestly rather watch Macross 2 for it's story than DYRL.

[treatment]

Do the differences between TV and DYRL versions of Space War I iritate anyone?

To put it mildly. I can't stand DYRL's spin on things.

I have to fight to stop from rolling my eyes at how trite and hokey the whole "men vs women war" thing was.

I'd honestly rather watch Macross 2 for it's story than DYRL.

err, you don't roll your eyes on the whole hokey, trite, and rather racist "Giants-vs-puny-'earthlings'" thingy from SDF-TV?

how quaint.

[ewilen]

ewilen almost no movies, tv series, or OVAs, tell you everything about a story before it even begins. Even in SDF Macross you don't find out about the Protoculture and the genetic simularities between mankind and the Zentradi until late in the show. A lot of the stuff I pointed out was cleared up right at the beginning of DYRL? while Hikaru and Minmay were trapped together. Or befope that , even, with Minmay's speech between 'My Boyfriend's a Pilot' and Shao Pai Long'.

This is the argument I was attempting to anticipate in my previous post. I was trying to say the same thing as Sundown--there's a difference between mystery as narrative device, on the one hand, and lack of exposition on the other. Both of them involve missing information, but one of them gets the viewer's interest while the other just confuses him.

This is especially the case when not only the Zentradi/Meltrandi are mysteries, but the "good guys" as well. SDF Macross shows us a lot about the Zentradi early on that could possibly have been excluded in the interest of enhancing the mystery from the perspective of the protagonists. But DYRL leaves out a lot of information about both sides. I don't even think we're ever told how the civilians ended up on the Macross.

Now, I can understand if you say that some of the missing exposition in DYRL is really just a kind of "quick sketch", where the viewer is supposed to just accept the general situation and not ask too many questions. That's more or less how I take your point-by-point response to Hurin earlier in the thread. But, it doesn't work for me.

[Macross_Fanboy]

I don't have the original SDF Macross yet, well I do, but it's in the form of Robotech.

[Mousey]

It's almost hard for me to compare Macross TV and DYRL, because even if it's the same characters and basic elements, the execution is vastly different. The animation in DYRL dwarfed the TV series, since the style was sloppy at times, and hardly consistent. DYRL moved too fast for my taste, but sometimes the TV series was at a deathly standstill, or even a regression. I liked a lot of the Hikaru and Minmay interaction in the TV series though, even if their date in DYRL was adorably cute. The overall Macross TV storyline and development was more appealing to me, and the main reason it was my choice.

[BLACKACE52]

Let us see now..... The only reason I knew about DYRL was because of the TV Macross but I think they are on different grounds. DYRL has got to have some of the best visuals ever made till this day as far as am concerned but Robotech (sorry for writting the name) had a story which at that time in alot of are young lifes was appealing. Without talking about those other people ( HG supporters) most people started reading the books looking for more after seeing the TV Macross.....so After all this I too can not vote due to both being good in there own greatness.