Macross Religious Overtones

[daeudi]

Rev 12:7

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

---

PC 2872

Nine months after the emergence of Protodeviln, over 85% of life in the Protoculture is lost. Direct combat between the Protodeviln with their [army of] manipulated Protoculture people (Supervision Army) and the Zentradi.

***

Gen 1:26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

---

PC 2870

A Protoculture survey ship stops temporarily on "Earth." By genetically reconstructing the native life, it plots the emergence of a sub-Protoculture adapted to the planetary enivronment, "Humankind," to prepare for future colonization. During its return to its home planet, the survey ship is destroyed by military ships opposed to the Stellar Republic. Records of Earth and Humankind are eventually lost. [PC 2900]

***

Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

---

AD 2010 March

Conclusion of Space [stellar] War I. Earth atmospheric purification operation begins. A total of several hundred thousand [to approximately one million] survivors confirmed in the Grand Cannons [i,] III and V, the Lunar surface's Apollo Base, and the space colony clusters [bunches].

***

Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

---

AD 2010 February

The first stellar marriage between the Earth Human Maximilian Jenius and the Zentradi Milia Fallyna broadcasted.

***

6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

---

PC 2500s

The mass production of giant biological weapons for proxy warfare, "Zentradi," is begun. The "Zentradi" contribute greatly to the expansion of the Protoculture's sphere of influence.[PC 2600s]

AD 2014

Guld Goa Bowman born on Earth.

***

Rev 8:5-11

And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter..

---

AD 1999 July 17 18:15 Japan Standard Time

Admidst a dispute between a faction advocating to destroy it by nuclear attack and factions advocating for no attack, the object named "EVA" (evangel, which means the Gospel of the Coming) enters the atmosphere above Burma. Due to the high temperatures and terrific shock waves, it reduces the summit of Mount Everest by nearly 1000 meters, destroys Moscow and Stockholm, and inflicts damage while passing over all parts of Europe. Furthermore, it travels over Iceland and Greenland, causes volcanoes to erupt in Canada, and falls onto the South Ataria Island at the southermost tip of the Ogasawara Islands above the Tropic of Cancer.

***

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

---PC 2872

Protodeviln faction are completely sealed in special chambers

through the efforts of Anima Spiritia.

***

Gen 7:21-23

And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

---

AD 2010 Feb 11

Boddole Main Fleet arrives within the Solar System. The Battle with Boddole Zer Main Fleet. Earth's annihilation.

***

Gen 2:8

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

---

AD 2013

An inhabitable planet is discovered 11.7 light years from the Solar System in the Groombridge 1816 Star System. It is named "Eden" and colonization begins.

***

Rev 6:12

And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Rev 12:1-4

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

---

AD 2031

Birth of 7th child, Mylene Flare Jenius, to Maximilian and Milia Fallyna Jenius onboard the space carrier Red Moon in flight near the Eta Carina Nebula.

***

Rev 17:4-6

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 17:18

And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

---

AD 2040 March

Macross City holds the 30th anniversary celebration of the end of Space War I. "The Sharon Apple Incident."

***

Rev 22:13

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

---

2040

YF-19 Alpha One and YF-21 Omega One prototype competition is conducted at New Edwards Test Flight Center on Humankind's first colonized planet, Eden.

[daeudi]

Now, before all of you get your panties in a bunch:

I know some of these are stretched for connection.

I am just wondering if any of the writers ever said what the sources of their inspiration were?

I am not looking to argue about religion, to make people angry, or say that SK is a heretic or saint.

I have seen things in the series/OVAs, from Zero to Plus to 7 that intrigued me.

That is all....

[Knight26]

Interesting comparisons there. It actually is semi-common practice amongst sci-fi writers who work with the theory that man evolved from alien planted seed to make the references somewhat biblically explainable in nature. A lot of sci-fi writers also tend to point at ancient legends as evidence of alien contact and visitation, I know I do in my books. Some of the connections are very stretched I agree, but it is still interesting to see. As long as this doesn't turn into a religious debate this should be a fun topic. Revelations is fun to try and interpret, and can be intrepted in numerous ways, heck according to Revelations my dog was the anti-christ, lol. Man if GodMedia was still around he would have field day with this one.

Edited June 23, 2004 by Knight26

[Aurel Tristen]

Quite interesting. Good show.

[Guest Khyron_Prime]

Its a very interesting comparison, and very well-researched. However, I think that a lot of Japanese directors use the Christianesque metaphors in many of their works--essentially, the Japanese tend to see Christianity's stories in the same boat as dramatic legends, and therefore, frequently use the basic topics to give dramatic value to their works. (Case in point: The Big O is TOTALLY obsessed with the drama of this religion.)

But as for Macross, I would chalk it up to sheer generalised values. There are a lot of stories about destruction, apocalypse, invasion from the heavens, etc., and it almost seems to be man's inherent nature to create such stories. And when the writers for Macross designed the stories you have displayed, I think I can safely believe that they had no deliberate intent to create such comparitive stories, but again, they are stories that have been told a million times, in one form or another.

Now, using the media of science-fiction and animation, Macross gets to tell them in a new and exciting way!

[platypiman247]

Macross already has mecha, music & romance, does it really need god also?

[Guest Khyron_Prime]

Macross already has mecha, music & romance, does it really need god also?

Well, if you like, it can be like Robotech and create its own god... Though, if you think about it, the people of Mayan have their own gods, and they're directly related to the Protoculture, so maybe Macross does have God, if not the Christian one.

[Blaine23]

I know a certain member (does he still even hang out here?) that's really gonna love complaining about this thread!

[the white drew carey]

But there is only one God...

"Colt 45... Gets 'em every time!"

[azrael]

IIRC, the creators of Macross played along the end-of-the-world themes, which is why we had the crash in 1999.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I was about to ask this connection in the newbie thread.

Following are a number of Links I had planned on posting in a ufo forum for dicussion... cut and pasted for entertainment purpose only. (not meant to offend people's beliefs)

http://www.alienresistance.org/sons_of_seth.htm

When fallen angels shape-shift into a form of human being they can have intercourse but not without some aberrant genetic changes. The union of these beasts with humans produced children that were different in many ways. The first apparent difference was that they developed giantism. They were giants or Nephilim. Og the King of Bashan had a bed that was 13 to 15 feet long; and Goliath was 6 cubits tall (9 feet). The second aberration was that they had six fingers and six toes...

"The aberrant genetic tendencies of the Nephilim were unfortunately cloned into the D.N.A. of mankind.

According to the Bible, only Noah escaped this genetic intervention at the time. There are no records of these perverse tendencies prior to the intervention of the Watchers. These dormant genetic tendencies still surface today at times in different people ... The Watchers are a guardian class of angels that were assigned to watch over the earth and protect mankind from just this sort of thing happening.

According to the Bible, the Book of Enoch, Jubilees, Jasher, and Testimony of the Twelve Patriarchs, they rebelled against God and attempted to enslave the whole world and provoke God. According to the Book of Jasher they not only tweaked with the D.N.A. of mankind but also with the animals. They may have produced such beasts as the Pegasus, Minotaur, the unicorn, and the dinosaurs.

There are some scholars that speculate that one day this will happen again to produce the antichrist. Fallen angels will make love to women and back breed until they have genetically produced a creature that is fully fallen angel and fully man. A bastard angelic incarnation. This may be an explanation for the reported cases of 'alien' abduction. If alien abductions are really happening then we know the source and the purpose. The source is fallen angels and the purpose is to breed the antichrist -- Satan incarnate.

Jesus said, "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." -Matthew 24:37. How were the days of Noah? They were violent and according to 2 Peter verse 2 these are the days that the angels fell and were judged. According to Jude 6 these are the days that the angels fell and some were chained in Tartarus.

http://xfacts.com/old/index.html

(many images of ufos in paintings. Why do they stretch back so far?)

Clearly this freaks some people out. Read about the coming of the alien invasion.

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/

Next, I saw that the idea of a cosmic rock infected with "virus" falling down on Earth would nicely relate to the familiar theme of the heavenly stone found in ancient traditions. In ancient Egypt, for example, there was the Benben Stone - thought to be a meteorite - which was closely associated with the notion of Creation, seeding, resurrection, and fire. Other cultures also had similar stones variously called the

omphalos/navel stone, foundation stone, etc.

I then recalled that the heavenly stone theme was inseparable from another theme, that of the 'fallen angels' found in various ancient traditions. In the Book of Enoch, these beings are collectively called the "Watchers." (The striking coincidence here was obviously that, as mentioned, the 'Ultra-Tech' image was from the 'Watcher' website.)

In the Old Testament, the 'fallen angels'/Watchers become the 'Nephilim' and/or the 'sons of God'. The term 'Nephilim' means 'those who have fallen', referring to their fall from heaven, indeed like the heavenly stone.

In Genesis we read: 

There were giants [i.e. the Nephilim] in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

This is a typical English translation of Genesis 6:4 that contains some errors, including the last phrase, 'men of renown'. It may be more accurately rendered as ‘the people of the shem’.[2]  What, then, is the 'shem'?

The persistence of biblical translators to employ "name" wherever they encounter shem has ignored a farsighted study published more than a century ago by G. M. Redslob… in which he correctly pointed out that the term shem and the term shamaim (“heaven”) stem from the root word shamah, meaning "that which is highward."[3]

The shem was also closely linked with fire and a stone; the shem thus was a 'highward fire-stone'.[4]  In other words, it seems to be a reference to none other than a 'heavenly stone'.  Strongly corroborating this is the fact that: 

Shems were particularly associated with something called an-na, which meant 'heavenly stone', a term that was also used to define a shining metal. The use of the word shem in respect of its 'shining' aspect is apparent in the alternative name for Prince Utu, brother of Inanna… His epithet was Shem-esh: the Shining

One.[5]

As 'Shining Ones' is another epithet for the Watchers, it can be inferred that the Nephilim were the 'people of the shem'... or that the 'fallen angels' are to be considered the 'people of the heavenly stone'. So, in a sense, the Watchers are the personification of the heavenly stone.

At this point, then, the implication would emerge that the 'false gifts' mentioned in the 2002 alien message might also relate to the 'fallen angels' in some way. Actually, this cannot be more fitting because the key function of these angelic beings in ancient tradition was to impart the 'gift' of advanced knowledge to mankind. In Greek myth, this story is repeated by Prometheus giving 'fire' to mankind, immediately followed by an unfortunate event involving Pandora's Box, a 'false gift' sent by Zeus. These, we are told, led to the corruption and suffering of man.

Traditionally, the forbidden distribution of knowledge paves the way for the Great Flood - a drastic measure taken by 'God' to eradicate the 'virus' in the system.

Turning back our attention to our own time, note that the biggest event witnessed in the year of 

'Odyssey', 2001, was the 9/11 terrorism. And as those who have read my previous articles would know, the destruction was in many ways the modern version of the Great Flood (see Mystery, Babylon the Great, etc.).

The parallel was very clear on many levels.

So, the point made here is that the alien glyph of August 2002 seems to represent a remarkable collage of coherent symbolic allusions carefully designed to convey a deep message.

And at this point, we have only deciphered a portion of the message.

I have a theory that macross was similar to roswell ufo crash in 1947. The gift of antigrav is like the holy grail because it would mean you could lift ships and blocks with ease. See my theory is that if the existance of giant beings was literal it may give an alternate explanation as to how ancient monuments like the pyramids were built since the size of the blocks is too large for current puny man. But the problem is the control of information because it would conflict with the current evolution theory. I have an interest in ooparts (out of place artifacts) and ufos and after seeing macross TV series again I was debating with a friend the story symbolism of the zentreadi in relation to the human race. (they like the decepticons in transformers, were the "demons" because they could fly (while most autobots, like humans, can't) and served as the bad guys or fallen angels waging the war on earth. The autobots were pretty much less military than the decepticons.)

Now, here are a variety of links on demonic giants (nephilim). They were found to have 2 sets of teeth and 6 fingers and 6 toes on each hand and foot who once roamed earth and were worshipped as the "gods". From what I've read about them was that they were cannibals, trouble makers, and warlike, and they fed on humans. Think of these as the real-life Zentraedi. (openly refferred to as "satan's dolls" in the "Macross" anime curiously, heh.) In that story the "aliens" stemmed from a "protoculture"(an earlier advanced civilisation) when the civilisation had reached its peak. This advanced civilisation began to create a warlike race of giant human-looking clones that they could serve as that civilisation's military. Genetic experiments which would be the beginnings of the Zentreadi: the warlike aliens who eventually turned against the protoculture and forgot all about thier past. haha

http://www.s8int.com/giants1.html

^good pictures here

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/pics/giants.html

^pics of giants spanning history.

http://www.stevequayle.com/Giants/pics/skulls.html

^skulls of ancient humans with big brains

http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/giants.pdf

^

shows a 12 footer. (right click to save onto hd. Requires adobe acrobat to open. These demons would have fed on normal men for food)

And there was...a battle in Gath, a city of the Philistines also known as the City of Giants, where was a man of great stature, that had on every hand six fingers and on every foot six toes... -2 Sam 21:20

These could be used in the Battle of Armageddon as warriors.

http://www.internetezy.com.au/ mj129/strangephenomenonb.html

^

predates aboriginees (add a "~" where the space is)

http://www.returnofthenephilim.com/PhotosS...GiantsGods.html

^

shows relative size of a Sumerian giant god-king. Enormous.

^

Assuming that these literal giants existed, then an insectoid race must have also existed.

^

perhaps in the future we can expect all kinds of giant shapeshifting mutants?

(see chimera)

http://www.stevequayle.com

^Accounts of Giants in North America and middle east giants. Maybe they helped build the pyramids, statues and stone monuments? Mystery solved.

http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine...s/Greg/ez3.html

^government cover up.

http://www.stargods.org/AlienNation.htm

goes into detail on the fall of mankind.

After the flood many races of giants appeared on the land once again. Here is a list of a few.

Rephaim - from the root rapha = spirits, shades Gen. 14:5

Anakim - race of giants Num. 13:33 descendents of Nephilim Emim - the proud deserters, terrors, race of giants Gen. 14:5

Zuzim- the evil ones, roaming things Gen. 14:5

Zamzummims - the evil plotters, Deut. 2:20

Zophim -

watchers, angels who descended Num. 23

Sepherim - the many.

According to Micah 3 God used the Nephilim giants to punish Israel. They are hidden now but they will soon return during the Tribulation to lead the nations against Israel. This will be the taller ones.

--snip--

-End of quotations- There have been many discoveries but the public is only allowed to see about 3% of all the finds. In the 1880's human skulls with horns were discovered in a burial mound at Sayre, Bradford County, Pennsylvania. The horns extended two inches just above the eyebrows. The skeletons were seven feet tall and it was estimated they were buried around AD 1200. When some of the bones were sent to the American Investigating Museum in Philadelphia, they disappeared!

more terms here:

Terms:

FALLEN ANGELS-These are angels of God that are tempted by earthy desires only to break rank and come down to the earth to partake of human lusts and/or to rule over mankind through the kingdom of satan. Only they have the power to materialise and take on human like flesh, (i.e. strange flesh).

DEMONS-In the book of Genesis the angels came to the earth and mated with the women of earth. The result was that there were giant satanic children born. These evil giants roamed the earth and were extremely evil by nature. They were masters of war and cannibalistic. Once the flood came their bodies were given up and their spirits continued to roam the earth. These spirits of the dead Nephilim giants remained on the earth looking for embodiment. This is the logical conclusion drawn by scripture and confirmed by the book of Enoch.

STAR GODS-This is a term used for the ancient fallen angels that ruled over mankind as Kings before and after the flood. Their main center of rule was from Mesopotainia. Historical reference records show that these star gods took on flesh. These gods had a real humans lusts and drives. They would have sex with all the tribe's woman, drink and eat, and even wore clothes.

ALIENS-This is a new modern name given to the star gods and demons. Demons are now called alien "hosts" that speak through people. Some fallen angels have taken on the form of so called aliens from other planets.

FALLEN CLONES-There are many indications that the act of cloning has been going on for sometime now in secret under the national security act. The generally accepted theory is that since these clones are not created by God, they are soulless creatures. This allows the demons to enter into them and to serve in satan's earthly kingdom while the Fallen Angels control the air. Satan is the prince of the power of the air. -Eph 2:2-3  satan's first line of defence with his kingdom on earth is the air, Dan 10:12-13.

..but back to giants:

http://www.xpeditionsmagazine.com/magazine.../holocaust.html

^Smithsonion Institute's cover up. Link tells of a war between 2 races of giants. They lived amoung native americans and the giant bones were put inside burial mounds.

^"Dancing Figures Found on a Copper Plate in Union County, Illinois." note tiny people at foot of dancing giants

http://www.geocities.com/raptureapologetics/MyTheory.html

^theory of giant civilisations living underground

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/skulls.html

^various alien-looking skulls. Todays humans may have inferiour intelligence to ancients.

http://www.omniology.com/BigBoys.html

^Giant gibbons!

http://www.omniology.com/HowEvolutionBecameReligion.html

^article on "How evolution became a religion"

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat1.htm

^flaws of radiocarbon dating methods

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/giants.htm

^could Eve have literally mated with satan, (The Original Snake in the Woodpile) corrupting the gene pool and bringing Eve-ill (the Evil series known as the supervision army or "watchers") into the world?

The very name, Rephaim, in the Hebrew comes from the root rapha which means not only "giant," but also "lax," that is, "ghost," "as dead," "dead, deceased." Says Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, "flaccid, feeble, weak, only in plural." This authority states, "According to the opinions of the ancient Hebrews, void of blood and animal life, therefore weak and languid like a sick person." Isaiah 26:14 speaks of them, but their name is translated "deceased." Notice! "They are dead, they are deceased [Rephaim], they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish." Isn't it interesting to note that many of the so-called "aliens" which have been "seen" by various people, when described, all appear rather weak, flaccid, limp, and feeble in appearance, lacking energy and vitality?

"Perfect in His Generations"

Only Noah and his family of his generation had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam. "These are the generations [plural, denoting genealogies and family history] of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God" (Gen.6:9). The rest of mankind had become corrupted through intermarriage with angels, tainted with the biological effects of such contamination, and their hereditary traits were corrupted -- genes and chromosomes were "tainted." Noah, however, was "perfect" in his genealogy or pedigree. The Hebrew word for "perfect" here is tamim and means "without blemish." It is the word for bodily and physical perfection. It is rendered "without blemish" (Exo.12:5, etc.), "without spot" (Num.19:2, etc.), and "undefiled" (Psalm 119:1).

The word Nephilim itself means, literally, "fallen ones" (from naphal, "to fall"). These beings were evidently great in size and great in wickedness. They were superhuman, abnormal beings, and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race. The children of the perverted sexual relationships between fallen angels and women "became [the] mighty men [Hebrew, gibbor, meaning "tyrants, the "heroes"], which were of old, men of renown" (Gen.6:4). The word for "renown" literally means "men of the name," that is, men who got a reputation and were renown for their strength, prowess, ungodliness, and evil deeds.

The "Giants" of Mythology and Early History

These mighty "giants" of old were the source and origin of the Greek legends of gods coming down from heaven and marrying women, having incestuous and adulterous relationships, "Cyclops," and other "Titans" and giants. They may also explain the difficulties engineers have had in explaining the construction of the great pyramid and the movement of the massive blocks of stone weighing hundreds of tons! Says the Companion Bible:

"If these Nephilim . . . were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together. . . .

"Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the 'men of renown,' the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology. That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the 'heroes' of Gen.6:4. The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks" (appendix 25).

The Companion Bible adds:

"Thus the Babylonian 'Creation Tablets,' the Egyptian 'Book of the Dead,' the Greek mythology, and heathen Cosmogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away" (Companion Bible, appendix 25).

The Encyclopedia Britannica, eleventh edition, provides more insight into the giants of old. Although the editors of the Britannica did not endorse the idea of real "giants" as having lived in the past, they put together a very interesting description of a theme which runs throughout ancient times -- that of real living giants. Notice:

"When reading in Homer of 'the Cyclopes and the wild tribes of the Giants,' or of Odysseus in the cave of Polyphemus (Homer, Odyss. vii, 206; ix), we seem to come into view of dim traditions, exaggerated [sic] through the mist of ages, of Pre-Hellenic barbarians, godless, cannibal, skin-clothed, hurling huge stones in their rude warfare. Giant-legends of this class are common in Europe and Asia, where the big and stupid giants would seem to have been barbaric tribes exaggerated [sic] into monsters in the legends of those who dispossessed and slew them. In early times it was usual for cities to have their legends of giants. Thus London had Gog and Magog, whose effigies (14 ft. high) still stand in the Guildhall; Antwerp had her Antigonus, 40 ft. high; Douai had Gayant, 22 ft. high, and so on" (v.11, p.926).

The Roman historian Pliny relates that an Arabian, Gabbarus, was about 9 and one half feet tall, and he also mentions a Posio and Secundila who were half a foot taller. Why should this seem so strange or unbelievable to moderns? The Scriptures tell us that David slew Goliath (whose name means "an exile"), a famous giant of the city of Gath, who was probably descended from the ancient Rephaim, of whom a remnant took refuge among the Philistines (Deut.2:20-21; II Sam.21:22). Goliath's height was "six cubits and a span," making him 9 feet and 9 inches tall!

Possible footprints of ancient gigantic men have been found in places like the Paluxy riverbed in eastern Texas. A tooth weighing 4 and three quarters pounds, and a thigh bone 17 feet long were found in New England in 1712, and were at that time thought to be evidence of the existence of ancient men of prodigious size in the antediluvian world. Giants in the streets of Basel, supporting the arms of Lucerne, seem to have originated from fossil bones found in 1577. Examined by the physician Felix Plater, they were pronounced as having belonged to a giant some 16 or 19 feet high.

According to ancient English history, the giant effigies (dating from 1708 and replacing those destroyed in the Great Fire of London) of Gog and Magog in Guildhall were the survivors of a race of giants. Says the Recuyell des histoires de Troye, Brute [brutus] and his companions, when they fled ancient Troy, sailed through the Mediterranean, and up the coast of Europe, eventually invading England. "Gog and Magog" were among a race of giants they encountered. After the giants were defeated, these two were brought to London (Troy-novant or "New Troy") and compelled to officiate as porters at the gate of the royal palace. According to Geoffrey of Monmouth, Goemot or Goemagzot (either corrupted from or into "Gog and Magog") was a giant, who, along with his brother Corineus, tyrannized in the western horn of England until slain by foreign invaders ("Gog," Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, vol.12. p.190).

The Jewish historian Josephus, writing of the time of the Exodus and conquest of Canaan, tells us further:

"There were till then left the RACE OF GIANTS, who had bodies so large, and countenances so entirely different from other men, that they were surprising to the sight, and terrible to the hearing. The bones of these men are still shown to this very day, unlike to any credible relations of other men" (Ant., V,ii,3).

Josephus relates that remnants of the race of giants still lived in David's day, about 1000 years before Christ. After one particular battle when king David made war against the Philistines, putting them to flight, he was tired and left alone, and one of the enemy saw him, "whose name was Achmon, the son of Araph; he was one of the sons of the giants. He had a spear, the handle of which weighed three hundred shekels, and a breastplate of chain-work, and a sword. He turned back, and ran violently to slay [David] their enemy's king, for he was quite tired out with labour; but Abishai, Joab's brother, appeared on the sudden, and protected the king with his shield, as he lay down, and slew the enemy" (Ant., VII, xii,1). The handle or staff of this giant's spear weighed about 75 pounds!

In the macross compendium the super zentradi had 1 unique problem: They needed to feed on souls to maintain thier enormous power...hrmm...

http://www.netscientia.com/orgins

^This is interesting parrallel to the existence of giants. Flying machines were common in ancient times. How could this be? Maybe they brought knowledge and technology and have hidden it from the masses?

another interesting article on ancient astronauts:

-- snip off of huge article ---

The actual existence of the "mythological" figures of the satyr (goat-man) and centaur (horse-man), for example, are monstrosities which likely have an historical basis in fact. Demonic meddling in animal genetics could very well have brought about the grotesque assemblages of the "gods" that we read about in ancient mythology. When the outbreak occurred again, after the Flood, God imprisoned the wicked spirits in Tartarus and omnipotently brought the outbreak to an end.

The darkened heart of the unbeliever, nevertheless, was a ripe place for Satan and his demons to sustain the memory of these fallen angels. The angels had become gods. They were to be worshipped. They had come from the stars. They had imparted "life" to humans. They had performed spectacular miracles, and revealed great truths, never before imagined. They had returned to the stars (according to Satan's delusion), but not before they left a promise to come again! Such are the themes of so many stories and beliefs around the world that the masterful counterfeit of Christian truth is almost frightening. A perfect example of all this is recorded in Acts 14:8-13 where Paul and Barnabas are assumed by the Lycaonians to be human manifestations of their gods who had come down to do miracles. God's work was attributed to demons.

-- snip off of huge article ---

Now I'm thinking if the protoculture in macross were really civilised and at the peak of thier wisdom, they could have also been responsible for populating other planets with life. We only know of thier Evil series, the Zentreadi, thier meddling with human DNA, but what about other projects on other planets? The protoculture could have made chimeras and half men half animal species too.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread42842/pg1

^ debates on ancients astronauts relation to religions.

Mars Pyramids = mirror of Egypt Pyramids - "as above, so below":

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/pyramid.html

^that is a favourite of mine. In magic, the heaven's are a reflection of what's on earth. The microcosm and macrocosm. Whatever was placed on earth may also have an equivalent in heaven. Now in the macross compendium, the global civial war on earth mirrored the war in heaven(space) that the stellar republic were having....this means that themes of magic has always been a part of the macross series right from the begining.

Now if you've seen the movie "Mission to Mars" you will notice them giving credit of the face on marsto the greys, just by looking at how 'alien' the shape of the face in the movie looks. "they seeded earth" Do greys want credit for the creation of life? Maybe the greys are claiming ownership of the world and in the future there will be a biblical war of armageddon with humans fighting against them..food for thought.

now here's the scary thing:.....

http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

^the plan calls for the population to be reduced to 500,000,000. How do you think "they" will accomplish this? Whoever put that there intends to weaken the human race before the invasion....argh..*cue spooky xfiles theme music*

Edited June 25, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[wolfx]

Dammit lowviz...that's alot of reading to go through there. Interesting.

And because of that bible verse in Genesis, I thought that the Nephilim WERE the children of Angels and men. I blame it on that stupid b-grade horror cum 3 star pr0n show which had something to do with this angel trying to bang some mortal woman to bear his "Nephilim".

I'll have to read this stuff when i get back from work.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I knew it was a long ass post so I didn't post it in any of the ufo forums. But damnit I think it's fascinating. Who cares if it takes 3 months to read?

*designs his new Variable fighter to combat the aliens*

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2072733

Can't wait to go aboard SDF 1. *practices Will Smith 'alien punches' from ID4.*

Edited June 24, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gideon Krieg]

Wow! This has got to be one of the best threads I've read here so far.

Well, I do not wish to intrude however, I would like to add some information that may be of interest.

According to the Hebrew Kabbalist book of creation (the Sefer Yetzirah), Avraham (Abraham from the book of Genesis/Exodus) was able to create an automaton called a Golem. This create was emotionless and did not have a soul, it "lived" by the power of God. This creation was designed to protect the Hebrews. It was created through the manipulation of the 10 spheres of creation (the Sephirot). Each of these spheres represents a force of the universe. There are ten of order and ten of chaos (the Partsif). The ten of choas are unrestrained power (nuclear?) and could only be contained by an understanding of the 10 spheres of order (physics?). The Golem is usually a thing made of metal or clay and requires the name of a sort of spell or enchantment written on a tablet (usually gold, which is a good conductor) in order for it to come alive. Also the spell which activated the Golem had to be sung by the creator of the golem or another Hebrew priest/levite (Macross 7 comes to mind, Basara in the Protoculture ruins, eh.)

Since this discussion is about religious overtones and the like, would it not make sense that the concept of a Golem is similar to that of a Battle Robot.

Just a thought.

Also, having read the above posts and checked with my Kabbalist books (the works of Rabbi Moses Maimonaides and Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan) I concluded that the above posts were correct.

"Demons" are the disembodied souls of the Nephalim (sons and daughters of the 200 Shaytan/watchers)

"Devils" are the 200 angels/watchers imprisoned in the Earth (reminds me of the Protodevlin) and were the ones who seduced the daughters of man and begot the Nephilim.

When the term "Giant" is used in the biblical works it has a double meaning (see Aryeh Kaplan's translation of the "Bahir"). It means both an actual Giant in size and a Giant in power. This power can be influence, wealth, political, or intellectual. The Nephalim are often referred to with both meanings.

It is interesting to note that the story of Adam and Eve, as told in the Bahir, indicates that Samael (the first Shaytan) was the watcher of the garden of Eden. He was taken aback by the beauty of Eve tried to gain knowlege through her (the Sephirot of Daat/knowledge). He seduced her (had intercourse with her on a spiritual level) and her eyes were opened (she gained knowlege/Daat and or became aware). She then seduced Adam and he too gained knowlege. What makes this story interesting is that it tells of a "skin" on Adam and Eve that is like a "Fingernail". This "skin" falls off of them after they have sex. It is Samael who first coerces the 200 watchers to defy God, primarily because his eyes were also open (he had Daat).

What is also interesting is that much later in the Tanakh (the old Testament) in the book of Job, Samael comes to God and bows with respect. He apparently is far below God in power and must ask permission to torment Job.

I mention this because God appears to have complete control over his mutliverse (in Kabbalah there are 10 dimensions to the multiverse, they range from the physical universe to a totally spiritual one.) As if he were a sort of scientist conducting an enormous experiment (To me that seems to be what the Protocultures did, running around seeding worlds and watching what happens.)

Well its late here, don't want to babble on. Thank you all conversation. It is very interesting. I'd post more but I'm starting to nod off. Better go.

[RichterX]

Wow 1/1 LowViz Lurker, you posted the picture of the skull of one of my probable ancestors the long headed South American skull those deformations were done during a period of time by some cultures of pre-columbian South America, I think each time people see some magnificent thing done by ancient cultures and say that it was made by aliens is not a good thing, so if you people think that, gosh... that means there is alien blood in me!

It gets me so pissed considering I am from a country full of "alien" ruins...

[Nightbat]

Interesting

but how would Macross end under Nostradamus' predictions?

bet you can find a few links there

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The giants were all over the earth. Killing, eating men, and giving everyone a bad day. It doesn't matter what country you're from. There were remains of big dudes here as well. Possibly the world was just 1 island and we all spoke the same language before God got angry and had to split the world into several languages and several islands as a way to save humans from cruel tyrant-kings. Like in the macross compendium where Britai was bred to his rank at a certain size and strength, so too could these giants choose from amoung thier tribes the greatest and strongest and who that person can breed with to increase the size of thier tribemen. (selective breeding to control the ranks)

Meanwhile normal sized men were too scared to do anything so they had to wroship them as gods to appease them. (survival) There's some interesting background about the solomon islands giants here: http://www.thesolomongiants.com/

Think of the mean ones as blood drinking vampires with supernatural strength. When ppl get baptised with water it grounds the evil spirit (made from electricity) of a possessed person. (water hurts vamps, demons etc and can be used in excorcism) given that you're a vamp hunter and all from the castlevania videogames.. jk

You could call the flood a massive baptism and cleansing to kill the physical giants. Some may have survived and continued on preserving thier bloodlines up to present day and had to hide in secret,(perhaps in huge underground cities) thier history preserved through the telling of popular tales but with labels, names, and dates changed to protect thier identity.

I reckon what happened is that back in the ancient times when people told stories orally rather than through comics, movies, and books, they had to pass down thier history generation to generation (grandfather, father, son) to preserve thier knowledge of the past. All the myths and legends of supernaturally strong heroes and villains could have been literal, and behind some of the fantasy and magic there is some truth in it. So you see out of place findings that stun people because people don't live 900 years to gather enough wisdom and intelligence to pass large chunks of the past to current day men. Like the Zentreadi, current day men then forget what the past was, absorbed only with the present, due to crappier lifespan. In Macross, the Zentreadi only know just enough about thier past but not enough and not in any detail to be able to believe thier own prophecies with any seriousness. Watch the classic sci-fi movie Blade Runner. The main villain is too ignorant of the world around him because the reploid has been designed to only live long enough to survive a very short time so as not to get too smart and self aware. (too dangerous to society) But after they wipe its memory they can put it back into service again ignorant of what happened before.

Today you could say superman is the current day version of myth and legend:

He is non-human super strong protector of mankind. An alien or fallen angel from the sky disguising himself in normal men's clothing and manners but superior to most humans in every way. Same thing with Dragon Ball Z. Goku, a usually super strong man from a warrior race, falls from the heavens (space) accidently falls and hits his head and becomes man's saviour or messiah.

Myths and legends are retold today just drfessed in different packaging. Anyway there was a recent documentary in australia on sbs or abc (can't remember which) about japan's underground cities and giant pyramid-like structures. Now all the myths about Atlantis etc that most current day people dismiss as just airy fairy legends could in fact have been real places that can be found if people try hard enough.

Edited June 24, 2004 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[F-ZeroOne]

You all missed my favourite part of Genesis (6:4):

"There were giant robots in the Earth in those days."

I am reasonably open-minded, but one should be careful. For example, those long-headed skulls; I'm pretty sure I've read that certain human peoples do this by wrapping young childrens heads in tight-fitting bandages of some kind - human skulls are softer when we are very young and more mallable (similarly, theres a tribe that uses neck-rings to produce women with extremely long necks).

Humans are amazingly adaptive creatures, and we forget that sometimes.

Also, there is a mis-conception that "primitive" by todays standards is the same thing as "dumb". Ancient humans might not have had mobile phones, but that doesn't mean they weren't clever. Charles Babbage came quite close to inventing the computer 100 years ahead of the electronics age; theres no telling whether someone else might have had a similar idea 2000 years ago, being frustrated only by the lack of really good MegaLith memory... [1]

[1] As one may be able to tell, I'm a big fan of the humourous fantasy written by British author, Terry Pratchett. His character Leonardo da Quirm is a good example of what I'm trying to get across!

Edited June 24, 2004 by F-ZeroOne

[daeudi]

I have always found it interesting that people use mythology as evidence that God, YHVH, aLLAH, WHAT HAVE YOU- doesn't exist. that all the myths of giants and dragons and magic were mere fanatsy.

I see the same thing happening with sci-fi, VonDanniken, and the Greys.

Pardon the phrase: "Methinks the lady doth protest too much."

On the otherhand, I see low-vis is half a step ahead of me.

[Agent ONE]

CROM is my God and he lives in the earth... When I die I will have to go before him and he will ask me, 'what is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me... Thats CROM, strong on his mountain.

[bandit29]

Wow my scroll mouse is getting a good workout in this thread...

Linking Macross with religion? = fanboys with too much time on their hands and no girlfriend

Its just a cartoon folks.

[Mechamaniac]

See section III HERE

Despite their good intentions, these things ALWAYS go awry.

[bsu legato]

CROM is my God and he lives in the earth... When I die I will have to go before him and he will ask me, 'what is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me... Thats CROM, strong on his mountain.

And yet....who does Conan get his sword from? The burial mound of an Atlantean giant.

duhn duhn duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnn!!

[GreatMoose]

This is a great thread. As a Christian, I just dig theories and such about the nephilim and other cool stuff out of the Bible. It's not hugely important, but it's really dang cool to speculate about!

EDIT IN: I wouldn't worry too much about this thread. The tone is merely speculative, it's not really a religious thread, it's merely using religion as a jumping off point. Nearly all cultures have some form of these theories, so it's not really singling one particular belief system out. It's just good fun.

Edited June 24, 2004 by GreatMoose

[Agent ONE]

CROM is my God and he lives in the earth... When I die I will have to go before him and he will ask me, 'what is the riddle of steel?' If I don't know it he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me...  Thats CROM, strong on his mountain.

And yet....who does Conan get his sword from? The burial mound of an Atlantean giant.

duhn duhn duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnn!!

I guess CROM is the god of the Protpculture also. I am sure he tossed them all out of Valhalla for that whole 'fruity space monster Protodevlin' thing.

[daeudi]

Wow my scroll mouse is getting a good workout in this thread...

Linking Macross with religion? = fanboys with too much time on their hands and no girlfriend

Its just a cartoon folks.

I'm not ashamed of it. (even though I have the girlfriend- she is more into Ranma :-P)

BTW, last I heard, joining a BB about Macross would still qualify you as fanboys with too much time on their hands and no girlfriend.

[EXO]

Wow my scroll mouse is getting a good workout in this thread...

Linking Macross with religion? = fanboys with too much time on their hands and no girlfriend

Its just a cartoon folks.

LOL, that's what makes fanboys fanboys.

It looks interesting, but way to much reading and from what I can surmise it can easily gowith any religion or myth.

Actually, it would really go with Greek myth more, if you consider their relationship with titans and gods knocking up mortal women. It's like... insert interpretations here...

[daeudi]

Now, before all of you get your panties in a bunch:

I know some of these are stretched for connection.

I am just wondering if any of the writers ever said what the sources of their inspiration were?

I am not looking to argue about religion, to make people angry, or say that SK is a heretic or saint.

I have seen things in the series/OVAs, from Zero to Plus to 7 that intrigued me.

That is all....

Mechamaniac Posted on Jun 24 2004, 10:39 AM

  See section III HERE

Despite their good intentions, these things ALWAYS go awry

Like I said- this not something to star a fight, and if any one is offended by this thread for religious reasons at ANY point, I simply ask that they not participate in it any further. I also ask that no one insult any one else's religion.

But so far, besides calling us fanboys,lol, no one has complained.

I also ask that no one insult any one else's religion.

Except that damn dirty Crom. He didn't grant me revenge.

[daeudi]

Actually, it would really go with Greek myth more, if you consider their relationship with titans and gods knocking up mortal women. It's like... insert interpretations here...

Well, I think the point LovVis, et al is making is that the Greek Gods, Titans (which by the way is the exact same word in Genesis- was translated to giants in KJV) , are the Nephilim after all. Along with all the other false gods.

Like the Bird Man?

[daeudi]

Anyways- what brought it all to mind:

The ProtoDEVLIN posess human/zentran bodies, eat SPIRITia.

That struck me as classic demons.

Basara sings, uses his SPIRITia, and is determined to move the "MOUNTAIN" (Faith of a mustard seed?) <Please ignore the obvious invid flower of life joke that can come up with that one.>

The I started to look at the whole series, including what I was seeing in Zero, and it came together.

So has SK or anyone else ever discussed the overtones?

[bsu legato]

I guess CROM is the god of the Protpculture also.  I am sure he tossed them all out of Valhalla for that whole 'fruity space monster Protodevlin' thing.

Who wouldn't?

And then Crom did laugh, and bade them "Go back to Sailor Moon, fruitcake." Thus shamed they left his hall, and never were they seen again by the eyes of men until they were found by a queer in a red Valkyrie. But that is another tale....

Seriously though, I always thought that the Protoculture's backstory as it relates to earth had more in common with Arthur C Clarke's 2001 novel. Both feature an ancient spacefaring race that visits earth, who then tinker with evolution before returning to the stars. By the time mankind discovers their existence, both races are long extinct.

Edited June 24, 2004 by bsu legato

[zeus the zentran]

I have to say this is one of the best threads ever.Anime in general tackled the issues of aliens beings our gods long before the americans did.You even see it kaiju movies like Ghidrah the three headed monster with the princess who survives the plane being blown up then claims she's prophet from Mars.Queen Millenia by Reiji Matsumoto uses Sitchin's 12 planet theory.The alien city on Earth in Macross could be seen as Atlantis.And as for the gentleman who said whoever started this post being a fanboy with no girlfriend and too much time on his hands,back off!I think this thread was very brave.I posted about a book called Hollywood vs. the Flying Saucers which is about how sci-fi books and movies were used as disinformation about ufos especially after Roswell and in later years with films such as Day the Earth stood Still and Close Encounters were used to make people take the idea of alien pressence seriously.The Mexico goverment recently released footage of UFOs over Mexico City and it seems they've been flying over the city for 10 years.I hope this brings changes soon in idea of aliens.Actually in the book i'm taking about they mentioned Uresei Yatsura and compared it to the Antonio Boaz incdent.That involved a man being abducted and he was made to mate with beautiful blonde alien woman.Again,I'm delighted about this thread because i mentioned the book in the Anime and other sci-fi thread I was basically laughed off.To those who find these ideas interesting ROCK ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zeus the zentran]

Oh Daedi is a da man!

[Blaine23]

I guess CROM is the god of the Protpculture also.  I am sure he tossed them all out of Valhalla for that whole 'fruity space monster Protodevlin' thing.

Who wouldn't?

And then Crom did laugh, and bade them "Go back to Sailor Moon, fruitcake." Thus shamed they left his hall, and never were they seen again by the eyes of men until they were found by a queer in a red Valkyrie. But that is another tale....

Seriously though, I always thought that the Protoculture's backstory as it relates to earth had more in common with Arthur C Clarke's 2001 novel. Both feature an ancient spacefaring race that visits earth, who then tinker with evolution before returning to the stars. By the time mankind discovers their existence, both races are long extinct.

Ironically, I don't think that's far too different from Scientology, either.

Of course, L. Ron Hubbard was a contemporary of Clarke's.

[daeudi]

Welcome aboard the thread, Zeus. (I'll have to let the greek god name go, lol)

But please- I took the Fanboy remark in good humor. Let's avoid anyone getting irritated by idle comments. "Back off" is appreciated but unneccesary

Edited June 24, 2004 by daeudi