Revisiting the YF-19/21/X-9 battle.

[UN Spacy]

Well. If you take into account the last minute before Guld takes out the X-9 (where Guld in Battroid Mode shields the last incoming shots). The are literally NO transformations during the entire battle.

Would Battroid and Gerwalk modes be ineffective?

Was Fighter Mode the ONLY way to beat the Ghost?

[Graham]

They way I look at it is to consider the way the Ghost X-9 is shown to fight, which seems to be mostly ultra-high speed slashing attacks, i.e zoom in guns blazing and then zoom away just as fast and circle round for another attack.

I would think with this sort of attack method, if the YF-19 or YF-21 were in Gerwalk or Battroid mode, they would only have a spit second (a few seconds maximum) to target the X-9 before it was out of effective weapons range.

The YF-19 and YF-21 would certainly not be able to keep up with the X-9 if they were in Gerwalk or Battroid modes. Basically, the only way that they would be fast enough to get into and stay in effective weapons range would be in Fighter mode.

Graham

[Lindem Herz]

Besides the effective weapons range issue, due to the very high speed, hit and fade nature of the Ghost's tactics, a slow moving target like a Battroid would be a sitting duck, blown right out of the sky before the pilot knew what hit him.

I think it would go pretty much like this:

Battroid going defensive (Ghost approaching for it's attack run)

Closure rate WAY too high for the pilot to successfully manouver the VF and bear his weapons or shield against the drone before it fires.

Result, zoom and BOOM, blown up just like Guld was.

Note that Guld used the remaning speed of Fighter Mode to buy him some time, and he planned it all along. Had he been caught off guard, he problably wouldn't had enough time to transform. FUBAR.

Battroid mode going offensive (turning to the Ghost after surviving the run)

Still accelerating, the Ghost would be out of range before the Battroid could turn and shoot. In other words, what Graham said.

[myk]

The battle with the Ghost was one of speed. Gerwalk and Battroid are modes that emphasize unique situations, not speed and certianly not aerial combat.

[Druna Skass]

I wonder how that fight would have gone if it took place in space...

[Uxi]

I imagine the Ghost would try similar tactics in space. Attack runs at high speed...

I could see Gerwalk especially being effective with Valkyries flying as fast as possible NOE in a particularly moutainous and/or jungle terrain...

[Anubis]

I wonder how that fight would have gone if it took place in space...

Same thing, but without worry of the planes burning from the airspeed friction. Still would have been a fighter mode battle just the same.

[Onimusha-shin]

IMO, the fight might have gone more badly for Guld it it were in space, due to the lack of earth's gravity, the X-9 might be more agile,. it was already straining Guld to the max in order to keep the Ghost in his reticule. imagine if the X-9 was much faster in space, without the inhibitions of gravity.

and if they tried to fight in Battroid or Gerwalk mode in the jungle and and / or mountainous terrain, the X-9 might simply wait it out or blast the terrain into oblivion. i can't imagine either pilot withstanding the bombardment long enough to snipe the X-9 out of the skies. only in a very enclosed area (closed cargo bay or interior of a ship) would the Battroid or Gerwalk mode be useful.

then again, i'm making uninformed comments. feel free to correct me.

[JB0]

IMO, the fight might have gone more badly for Guld it it were in space, due to the lack of earth's gravity, the X-9 might be more agile,. it was already straining Guld to the max in order to keep the Ghost in his reticule. imagine if the X-9 was much faster in space, without the inhibitions of gravity.

Or wind resistance.

The Ghost was hardly the most aerodynamic vehicle ever created. It would've been a lot more nimble in a vacuum.

So would the YF-21, but no one cares really, as Guld was already well past his own operational limit. A more nimble YF-21 would've just shredded him.

[Bluedeath]

IMO, the fight might have gone more badly for Guld it it were in space, due to the lack of earth's gravity, the X-9 might be more agile,. it was already straining Guld to the max in order to keep the Ghost in his reticule. imagine if the X-9 was much faster in space, without the inhibitions of gravity.

and if they tried to fight in Battroid or Gerwalk mode in the jungle and and / or mountainous terrain, the X-9 might simply wait it out or blast the terrain into oblivion. i can't imagine either pilot withstanding the bombardment long enough to snipe the X-9 out of the skies. only in a very enclosed area (closed cargo bay or interior of a ship) would the Battroid or Gerwalk mode be useful.

then again, i'm making uninformed comments. feel free to correct me.

I don't think that X-9 is more agile in space, remember that in 0 atmosphere you can't turn by using control surfaces of the plane cause the flight become inertial (play asteroids to get an idea). You need "verniers" to change direction. Plus faster speed result in a greater turn angle so more thrust is needed from the directional thrusters to be able to turn and you can't use airbrakes that in a way or an other affect inertial flight, if you want a good rendering of the inertial space fligt watch battlestar galactica 2004 or play Heavy gear 2 .

Edited June 24, 2004 by Bluedeath

[Mule]

I don't think that X-9 is more agile in space, remember that in 0 atmosphere you can't turn by using control surfaces of the plane cause the flight become inertial (play asteroids to get an idea). You need "verniers" to change direction. Plus faster speed result in a greater turn angle so more thrust is needed from the directional thrusters to be able to turn and you can't use airbrakes that in a way or an other affect inertial flight, if you want a good rendering of the inertial space fligt watch battlestar galactica 2004 or play Heavy gear 2 .

Babylon 5 also has exellent space combat concepts. Mac Plus still had the planes flying as though they were in an atmosphere (go where the nose is pointing). In space the direction the nose is pointing is unrelated to the direction you are flying.

[Anubis]

Being fighter mode only, what if the ghost could have been designed to "autoslide"? (WC term) The Ghost would have owned in space if it had that.

Also, wouldn't Guld have been less limited as well without gravity and airspeed friction to mess with his valk (and him) if he was in space?

To revise my earlier post now that I think about it some more:

I dare say he might have used battroid in part in space as well, because he would have been able to make full use of the Q-rau vector control system that the 21's battroid uses. Battroid obviously suffers in the atmosphere, but it would have been nimble as hell in space.

Edited June 24, 2004 by Anubis

[Bluedeath]

wouldn't Guld have been less limited as well without gravity and airspeed friction to mess with his valk (and him) if he was in space?

He has to deal with g force anyway, at least during turns, more speed means more G force to deal with, remember that in japanese edition of mac plus Gould's eyeball collapse during an extremely fast break turn.

Edited June 24, 2004 by Bluedeath

[Zentrandude]

depends on line of sight and environment. if guild or isamu was in battroid on a super clear day and can see for miles and miles it would be eaiser to track ghost and take it down during its pass. on less than frav conditions fighter and in city maybe gerwalk if you caught it searching for you.

[Druna Skass]

He has to deal with g force anyway, at least during turns, more speed means more G force to deal with, remember that in japanese edition of mac plus Gould's eyeball collapse during an extremely fast break turn.

He wasn't turning when his eyes were crushed, he was just flying straight and very fast.

[JB0]

He has to deal with g force anyway, at least during turns, more speed means more G force to deal with, remember that in japanese edition of mac plus Gould's  eyeball collapse during an extremely fast break turn.

He wasn't turning when his eyes were crushed, he was just flying straight and very fast.

The evidence says otherwise.

Guld was injured at multiple points. Hence, he was not just flying straight. If nothing else he was screwing with his speed constantly.

'S a common misconception.

Constant velocity is harmless, regardless of how fast it is.

ONLY a change in velocity can affect you.

That's why astronauts on the space shuttle going mach 25 don't get plastered, but being rear-ended in your car at a stoplight can seriously injure you. They speed up a lot slower than you do.

Not to mention the Ghost was in constant motion. If Guld flew a straight course, the Ghost would have A. escaped, and B. killed him.

As the Ghost was far more immune to g-forces than the YF-21(owing to the squishybits in one of them), it would've just jammed on the breaks, snapped around, rocketed off, and whipped up behind Guld or alongside him.

[Oihan]

IMO, the fight might have gone more badly for Guld it it were in space, due to the lack of earth's gravity, the X-9 might be more agile,. it was already straining Guld to the max in order to keep the Ghost in his reticule. imagine if the X-9 was much faster in space, without the inhibitions of gravity.

and if they tried to fight in Battroid or Gerwalk mode in the jungle and and / or mountainous terrain, the X-9 might simply wait it out or blast the terrain into oblivion. i can't imagine either pilot withstanding the bombardment long enough to snipe the X-9 out of the skies. only in a very enclosed area (closed cargo bay or interior of a ship) would the Battroid or Gerwalk mode be useful.

then again, i'm making uninformed comments. feel free to correct me.

I don't think that X-9 is more agile in space, remember that in 0 atmosphere you can't turn by using control surfaces of the plane cause the flight become inertial (play asteroids to get an idea). You need "verniers" to change direction. Plus faster speed result in a greater turn angle so more thrust is needed from the directional thrusters to be able to turn and you can't use airbrakes that in a way or an other affect inertial flight, if you want a good rendering of the inertial space fligt watch battlestar galactica 2004 or play Heavy gear 2 .

I thought the X-9 had verniers..... And if I remember correctly, it looks as if both Guld and the X-9 make it out into space for a little while.... The X-9 still looked agile..... I dunno...could be wrong.... W/e.

[Oihan]

...I'm watching that battle again (between Guld and the Ghost) and I must say that is one F'n awesome battle! ~1:38:38 - 1:39:03 into the movie...that scene gives me goose bumps... Such awesome animation.....

[Onimusha-shin]

i believe all their fighters are capable of duking their guts out in space. how else could these fighters be approved for use by the UN Spacy if they were merely atmospheric fighters?

and yes, Guld was injured many times over due to his body sustaining the incredible G's necessary to avoid the Ghost's attacks. in the part where he popped his eye though, it is rather unclear if he was flying in a straight line (with a GREAT deal of acceleration since he removed the limiters) or if he was constantly bouncing around to avoid any counterattack. judging from the way his eye popped (backwards into his skull), i believe it was the former.

Edited June 25, 2004 by Onimusha-shin

[Marso]

I think Guld was pulling the gees in relatively linear acceleration as he was sterring to ram the ghost. No break turns here, just a shitload of forward thrust. F=ma and all that good stuff.

[platypiman247]

As the Ghost was far more immune to g-forces than the YF-21(owing to the squishybits in one of them), it would've just jammed on the breaks, snapped around, rocketed off, and whipped up behind Guld or alongside him.

I'm not an expert in this field of aerodynamics, nor am I at all informed in the compostion of the airframes of these fighters, but I am pretty sure that a maneuver like that at such incredably high speeds would have ripped even the mighty ghost to shreds.

[RichterX]

The problem is that probably the pilot is ripped apart before the fighter rips apart, at least that it was it seems with Guld.

[JB0]

The problem is that probably the pilot is ripped apart before the fighter rips apart, at least that it was it seems with Guld.

Indeed.

Humans aren't near as durable as mecha.

Yes, I was exagerating, but not near as much as you'd think.

[platypiman247]

The problem is that probably the pilot is ripped apart before the fighter rips apart, at least that it was it seems with Guld.

Yes, this is true, but the point I was trying to make is that if the ghost attempted to pull a maneuvre like the one suggested by JBO at such a high speed, either the G's or the wind resistance would rip its wings clean off!

Edited June 26, 2004 by platypiman247

[Marso]

You are right, but in the Macross universe we commonly see Valks falling over and engaging in hand to hand fighting in Battroid mode without suffering any sort of damage at all. With those kind of materials, the airframes themselves might be able to stand the stresses, although the pilots certainly couldn't.

[Onimusha-shin]

plus they wear those pilot suit. G-suit is it called?

[ManxoChu]

plus they wear those pilot suit. G-suit is it called?

It wouldn't really matter since in all likelihood Guld's suit probably wasn't rated to withstand the G's and neg-G's the YF-21 could put out without the use of the limiters. Guld knew his fate when he deactivated said limiters.

[JB0]

plus they wear those pilot suit. G-suit is it called?

All a g suit does is keep you from passing out by preventing your blood from all flowing down into your feet leaving your brain high and dry.

It does not dampen inertia.

Your organs are still sloshing around(something you couldn't see in the show, but Guld was doomed long before his body started showing much external damage).

[one_klump]

Also, remember, Guld was half-zendrati, so I am sure he was a bit tougher than a normal human would be.