New Army Rifle

[Guppy]

Now all we need are Master Chiefs from Halo in the Army.. or maybe they'll go for more of a Starship Trooper fashion style?

Either way, I want an XM-8 Trooper action figure!

[JsARCLIGHT]

The main complaint about this platform is always going to be the caliber. 5.56mm has always had a stigma about it. Everyone thinks it is a weak caliber but up close, doing what it was intended to do it works just fine. Plus the new altered 5.56mm KE rounds add some more punch to the gun. If they could adapt the new different caliber rounds to work I think they should do that just to silence those that love to gripe on the 5.56mm round... but changing over from one caliber to another is hard to do very fast. In Vietnam the switch from .308 to 5.56 took a while to propperly take effect and there where a few ammo shortages in the early days.

The other thing I have seen people complain about is the composite and "plastic" materials the weapon is made out of. The folks making those complaints tend to be the older hands that have this seeming inbread hate of the new "combat tupperware" weapons but at the same time they have no experience with them. Sort of like a predjudice of the gun world. Then again it is not what we say about them but how the military feels about them. Us exes and civvie slack-jaws could love the thing into heaven but if the brass thinks the thing is junk it will get slung faster than first gen M16.

[Druna Skass]

I could never understand why people complain about plastics being used in guns. I mean the Glock pistols and the Steyr AUG are great guns.

[SupremeKaioshin]

neat!  if it doesn't jam every couple of rounds we'll be all set! :-p

Maybe if the dumbass soldiers cleaned their freaking weapons once in a while, you wouldn't have so many malfunctions. Besides some crappy mag clips, you shouldn't have any jams.

I was at Fort McCoy last week and my weapon (16a2) jammed only once after unloading over 30 (30 round) magazines. It only jammed once when I resorted to one old ass 20 round "non-banana" mag.

Edited June 22, 2004 by SupremeKaioshin

[Mechabuilder]

pretty.

Edited June 25, 2004 by Mechabuilder

[Druna Skass]

B- Understand that P.O.W. do NOT deserve fair and humane tretment.

You ever see that show on the History Channel about the German POWs in the U.S. during WWII? When it all ended most of them came back to the U.S. and became citizens...

[Godzilla]

Well, we are talking about a war with principles in WW2. Where both sides fought with honor as well. Right now, we have a covert war against Muslims fanatics who like to torture and kill innocent people so they can get there own way.

[bsu legato]

B- Understand that P.O.W. do NOT deserve fair and humane tretment.

Yeah, way to maintain that moral high ground.

[Skull Leader]

It looks cool and all but, untill the powers that be, decide that its is OK to use deadly force in war without:

A- The "Only shoot the bad guy if he doesn't want to play nice" mentality

B- Understand that P.O.W. do NOT deserve fair and humane tretment.

That weapon might as well just be used for parades and the occasional diplomatic visit.

Here, if you make fun of a prisioner, you go to court for being mean (boohoo)

There, they cut your head off.

War isn't a chess game, you don't take turns.. You check mate with one big BOOM!

I would point out that your comments are next to worthless in discussion here. You're opening the door for discussion about something that will only lead to serious hate-debate.

This discussion is about the physical functionality of the weapon, not the justification for NEEDING it or when to use it.

[fearyaks]

who like to torture and kill innocent people so they can get there own way.

Not to smack around the hornet's nest but some might say the same thing about this administration.... I seriously doubt all the people in Abu Ghraib/Guantanamo bay are 'guilty'.

[bsu legato]

Skull Leader's right. We ALL have to stop right now and get bock on topic, or some mod will lock this topic faster than you can say "Quadrono."

[Angel's Fury]

Hey guys!!! Let's not get the thread off topic here!!! As for that Land Warrior program, JsARCLIGHT, what's this about? Is it a new type of military off-road vehicle or something?

[Amped]

Isn't LAND WARRIOR the catch-all designation for the next generation of Infantry gear development programs (BDUs, first aid, camo, weapons, squad networking, etc.)? Sorta the next generation 'total package' of the ultimate infantry soldier... which ties in nicely with the whole 'Army of One' jingle, dontcha think?

Edited June 23, 2004 by Amped

[JsARCLIGHT]

The Land Warrior system was begun a long time ago under a different name but it's current phase is somehting like this: Basically it is an individual combat infantry gear system that allows the unit (the man wearing the gear) to become interconnected with his fellows and better interpret his battlefield by various means that allow him to be a more effective soldier.

At it's core, Land Warrior is a CPU system integrated into the LBE gear of the infantry soldier. The system then has a speical monicle piece that is basically a "heads up" monitor that allows the trooper to see maps, GPS data, unit movement data, locations of friendlys and marked hostiles and even allows him to communicate via "email" and vox with his fellows or commanding units in real time. The setup even uses a special camera and "mouse" (more like a touchpoint) mounted to his weapon that allow him to send visuals to his commanders or other units, see around corners without exposing himself to fire and switch between infa, infra and thermal vision modes. Basically it is like having the trooper "play an online shooter game" in that he can do a lot of stuff gamers have the ability to do like co-ordinate attacks with other units and interconnect his tactics and movements with the other units on the battlefield.

To an extent it is kind of like the world of Aliens where the commander can see what his troops see in the field and advise and command them based on real-time info... but this system also allows the troops to see what their fellows see and share hard data to plan their own attacks autonomously. In a nutshell, Land Warrior is the 21st century warrior prototype. The future of Land Warrior evolution is this strange evil looking sucker on the far right:

... but the evil black trooper of tomorrow is still pure fantasy as it will supposedly have color shifting camo, mini rocket bullets that can shoot around corners and home in on targets as well as offer full body armor protection and a full open heads-up display like you see on video games. Fantasy now but perhaps possible as technology shrinks with time.

The main drawback to the Land Warrior system, the current one, is that the sucker weighs 80 pounds! It literally is like carrying full field gear without carrying full field gear. As time marches on they will be able to shrink the tech, most notably the camera, CPU and that damn heavy battery, and make it more fieldable.

Edited June 24, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[fearyaks]

The main drawback to the Land Warrior system, the current one, is that the sucker weighs 80 pounds!

Isn't there another gov funded project which will enable soldiers to carry larger weight-loads? I remember seeing some exo-skeleton leg-gizmos which increased a soldiers carrying capacity by quite a lot.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I hear about things like that all the time, but for combat use they would not be practical yet until they get them to be as agile as a human unrestricted. That is also the big concern with Land Warrior... when you are humping 80 pounds of gear you move like a turtle. Now I know I have not had hundreds of hours of foot combat like a few other vets have had but the first thing I remember about all the training and the field ops I did was that first thing you do is ditch the weight. When you are expecting heat you dump every piece of gear you are carrying other than the things you will need right away: ammo, weapons, first aid and such. I was lucky though being assigned to a recon unit driving around in hummers and all your gear was packed into the truck and you really only needed to carry your weapon and your LBE with mags and such if you got out of the truck.

I think it would be neat to have some sort of exoskeletal suit the troops could suit up in but then that would basically make the normal soldier a "vehicle", and he would require repairs, maintenance and all manner of other problems associated with mechanized infantry.

[Opus]

It looks OK to me. The only thing I don't like from looking at it is the flash hider. It'll probably get changed like the M-16 A1. It had a similar flash hider and it had to be chaged since it snagged so easily.

[Mislovrit]

Everyone thinks it is a weak caliber but up close, doing what it was intended to do it works just fine. Plus the new altered 5.56mm KE rounds add some more punch to the gun.

Iirc the big problem for the 5.56mm right now is it just isn't dropping the unarmored insurgants as the rounds goes right though them.

[JsARCLIGHT]

That is 100% true. The 5.56 superpenitrates like a 9mm bullet does. Sure it makes a nice hole and does a lot of tissue damage but the small size of the bullet carries no kinetic force behind it normally to add that "wham!" knockdown effect a larger, heavier caliber has.

A widely spread rumor of why this is so is that back in 'Nam the government wanted a round that would kill but not kill outright... Uncle Sam wanted those Cong our boys shot to live long enough to give up intelligence and leads before they died. But for the most part, outside of wild rumor and grunt mentality, that is not true. The teeny tiny 5.56 round was intended to be a lethal device in it's rate of fire, not necessarily it's lone bullet capacity. You shoot a man with a single 5.56 and it is not a CNS hit he will be in a load of hurt but he will still be able to "function". You hit him with a good burst right in the chest and his internal organs are pretty much liquified under the shock from the several rounds hitting in such a small area.

[Anubis]

The bulk of the weight on the Land Warrior is the damn battery isn't it? Can't see the acutal hardware weighing that much. A long-term battery is another story.

Kind of an "Evangelion pinch" How much battery life do you incorporate while maintaining mobility and bulk. Few minutes worth is no problem, beyond thet needs external power or big battery/generator add-ons.

Back to reality, a UPS for a PC is a heavy little gizmo, and only has so much battery life. That's the problem with strapping computers to soldier's backs. It's a great idea, but realities of wattage consumption really hamper it's effectiveness.

Edited June 24, 2004 by Anubis

[Druna Skass]

Someone mentioned here how the 5.56mm has some contraversy surrounding it. So what are it's pros and cons and how does it stack against the 7.62mm?

[bsu legato]

So what are it's pros and cons and how does it stack against the 7.62mm?

Which one? 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62x39?

[Druna Skass]

So what are it's pros and cons and how does it stack against the 7.62mm?

Which one? 7.62x51 NATO or 7.62x39?

Well I meant the AK 7.62x39, but since you brought up the other one, may as well compare the 5.56mm NATO with both those rounds.

[Greyryder]

NATO 5.56mm is more powerfull than the eastern block 7.62mm that the AK fires, but is comparitively weak against the NATO 7.62mm round.

[Commander McBride]

I wonder if the Land Warrior system could be set up to run off Fuel Cells. Not only are they lighter than normal batteries, but they could be refilled with a bit of gasoline, instead of having to be recharged with electrical power.

[Mislovrit]

NATO 5.56mm is more powerfull than the eastern block 7.62mm that the AK fires, but is comparitively weak against the NATO 7.62mm round.

Iirc NATO 5.56mm haves better armor-picering(sp) capabilities over the 7.62x39, but the 7.62x39 is better for stopping power.

[JsARCLIGHT]

The Russian 7.62 x 39 cartridge has much better stopping power because of the hollow cavity in it's nose. This small hollow cavity makes the round expand like a flower when it hits it's target, causing the bullet to tumble and make a very wide wound channel. This makes the 7.62x39 a superior cartridge for antipersonel use but the same things that make it a good killing round ruin it's ability to penetrate hard surfaces like armor. The round tends to "splat" on armor rather than pierce it. Comparitively the NATO 5.56 is better suited to armor piercing but has no real expansion properties. The 5.56 tends to shatter and fragment on impact and create a sort of "shredding" effect.

[bsu legato]

It sould also be pointed out that the 7.62x39 is really limited in accuracy by the AK-47 design. If you ever see the old slow motion footage of an AK firing, you'll be shocked at just how much the AK design rattles around during firing. It almost looks like it's going to shake itself to pieces.

And another factor in its effectiveness against "soft" targets, ie humans, is that the bullet weighs nearly twice as much as most 5.56 Nato rounds. I think one of the standard loads is something in the order of a 123 grain bullet, compared to 50-60 grains for the various 5.56 loads from the past 40 years.

[Zentrandude]

It sould also be pointed out that the 7.62x39 is really limited in accuracy by the AK-47 design. If you ever see the old slow motion footage of an AK firing, you'll be shocked at just how much the AK design rattles around during firing. It almost looks like it's going to shake itself to pieces.

And another factor in its effectiveness against "soft" targets, ie humans, is that the bullet weighs nearly twice as much as most 5.56 Nato rounds. I think one of the standard loads is something in the order of a 123 grain bullet, compared to 50-60 grains for the various 5.56 loads from the past 40 years.

good thing i have a sks then. sure it only holds 11 rounds but it flings the 7.62x39 fmj with very good accuracy with just iron sites alone. for soft targets i still perfer a 30-06 to reach out and tap something.

[Druna Skass]

I know bullets more by their mm, someone clarift what the 30-06 is.

[bsu legato]

I know bullets more by their mm, someone clarift what the 30-06 is.

Easy.

.30 caliber, M1906 cartridge.

Today, it would be represented as 7.62X64