Super Large-Type Launcher

[Aurel Tristen]

I'm guessing that the above screen capture from 'The Galaxy is Calling Me' is simply an animation error as a VF-17 without FAST packs fitted should AFAIK only be able to fire 4 micro-missiles per salvo, not the 14 missiles at once shown in the picture. And the VF-17 shown in the above picture does not appear to have any FAST Packs fitted.

Unless of course that is the leg weapon bays first shown being loaded with reaction weapons in episode # 43 are in fact canon and can possibly be loaded with different weapons pallets, i.e. reaction missiles or micro-missiles.

Graham

Even if the internal weapons bays were legit, the missiles being fired in the screen capture aren't originating from the weapons bays-nor are the bay doors open.

[Aurel Tristen]

Something that amazes me is the sheer number of "animation errors". Being creator, mecha designer, director, story concept writer and even key storyboard drawer would would think that there wouldn't be so many errors. It sucks. I wish Kawamori's visions were better realized. To think.... muzzle flash and gatling gun sounds from where beams are supposed to be fired from, beams and beam sound effects coming from a gatling gun pod.... its a real shame. So many published errors too. : (

[wolfx]

Something that amazes me is the sheer number of "animation errors". Being creator, mecha designer, director, story concept writer and even key storyboard drawer would would think that there wouldn't be so many errors. It sucks. I wish Kawamori's visions were better realized. To think.... muzzle flash and gatling gun sounds from where beams are supposed to be fired from, beams and beam sound effects coming from a gatling gun pod.... its a real shame. So many published errors too. : (

An animation studio is a huge thing to manage. Besides, they were constrained by budget and time and they also outsourced to animefriend.

So I guess animation errors are almost unavoidable. They probably happen alot in other anime as well, but just that MW-ers are all geeky people who look at the shows with a microscope.

[Graham]

Even if the internal weapons bays were legit, the missiles being fired in the screen capture aren't originating from the weapons bays-nor are the bay doors open.

Ah, but assuming that the VF-17's leg weapons-bays are legit (Egan?), then it may be possible to replace the normal hinged opening type doors, with flush mounted micro-missile launchers, similar to how the doors on the leg-mounted weapon-bays of the VF-19Kai/F & S were replaced with twin flush-mounted micro-missile launchers on the legs of the VF-19P. Just fan speculation

Graham

[azrael]

Ah, but assuming that the VF-17's leg weapons-bays are legit (Egan?),

Gents,

Scroll down to the VF-11 entry note:

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

[Graham]

Ah, but assuming that the VF-17's leg weapons-bays are legit (Egan?),

Gents,

Scroll down to the VF-11 entry note:

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

I remember reading previously on the Compendium that the VF-11's leg weapon bays were not official, but I didn't recall any mention of the VF-17's leg weapons bays. Anyway, for those of you too lazy to read through the Macross Compendium, it has the following to say on the subject: -

"Shoji Kawamori did make leg weapon bays part of the official specifications for the VF-11MAXL variant, as well as the General Galaxy VF-17 Nightmare and Shinsei Industry VF-19 Excalibur".

Furthermore, the Armament section of the Compendium's VF-17 page includes the following statement: -

"Internal standard equipment capable of being exchanged for other weapon packs"

This seems to support my theory that the VF-17's leg-bays which were shown holding Reaction Weapons during Operation Stargazer, could instead be optionally fitted with other weapons such as extra micro-missiles, which would explain the greater than normal number of missiles being fired in 'The Galaxy Is Calling Me'.

Graham

[Aurel Tristen]

Ah, but assuming that the VF-17's leg weapons-bays are legit (Egan?),

Gents,

Scroll down to the VF-11 entry note:

http://www.anime.net/macross/feedback/index.html

I remember reading previously on the Compendium that the VF-11's leg weapon bays were not official, but I didn't recall any mention of the VF-17's leg weapons bays. Anyway, for those of you too lazy to read through the Macross Compendium, it has the following to say on the subject: -

"Shoji Kawamori did make leg weapon bays part of the official specifications for the VF-11MAXL variant, as well as the General Galaxy VF-17 Nightmare and Shinsei Industry VF-19 Excalibur".

Furthermore, the Armament section of the Compendium's VF-17 page includes the following statement: -

"Internal standard equipment capable of being exchanged for other weapon packs"

This seems to support my theory that the VF-17's leg-bays which were shown holding Reaction Weapons during Operation Stargazer, could instead be optionally fitted with other weapons such as extra micro-missiles, which would explain the greater than normal number of missiles being fired in 'The Galaxy Is Calling Me'.

Graham

Another possibility is that the scene of the VF-17 firing its missiles in the Macross 7 movie was nt well animated, but could show the VF-17's maximum micro missiles load being fired from its shoulder launchers. If the launchers are capable of firing at such a rapid rate. It could have been the rapid firing salvos of 2-2-2-1 from each shoulder (14 missiles total).

[Aurel Tristen]

It's a wonder then why it wasn't chosen as a mass-production VF. just sans the stealth ability and it's a really capable fighter (So it seems).

The VF-17 is not that suited to the atmospheric role due to it's minimal atmospheric control surfaces.

With it's large number of verniers (more than any other VF I think) it is far more suited to and is primarily designed towards operations in space.

Also, although the VF-17 packs an impressive amount of beam weapons (head, forearms (wrists & elbows), & chest) as well as a gunpod and gunpod beam adaptor, it is very light on missile armament, unless the optional FAST Packs are fitted.

Although no official figures have been given, I would guess that the 4 x shoulder-mounted micro-missile launchers probably only have enough internal space to hold no more than 2 to 3 micro missiles each.

Graham

If you compare the VF-17 to the VF-11, its got a heck of a lot more missiles.

If you take into accord that the VF-11 has no internal weapons bays (covers eyes while watching Nightmarish Invasion (the coolest Macross 7 episode there is) and the fact that Shoji Kawamori has not specified that the VF-11 has any underwing hardpoints.

That leaves the VF-11 Thunderbolt missile-less without super packs or a protect weapon system. Which I think it pretty ridiculous for one of U.N. Spacy's main fighters. Even the VF-5000B, even though it was a lightweight fighter-it still had missiles without FAST packs.... in the beginning anyways. The VF-5000G/-T has propellant tanks which may or may not have exit ports for the machine's base leg micro missile launcher additional launchers. They appear just to be propellant tanks with cut-outs for the missiles to pass through and not additional detachable launchers themselves.

Must be why all of those VF-11s get shot-up in Macross 7. ; ) lol

Too bad, because it is a nice looking machine.

[Graham]

If you compare the VF-17 to the VF-11, its got a heck of a lot more missiles.

If you take into accord that the VF-11 has no internal weapons bays (covers eyes while watching Nightmarish Invasion (the coolest Macross 7 episode there is) and the fact that Shoji Kawamori has not specified that the VF-11 has any underwing hardpoints.

That leaves the VF-11 Thunderbolt missile-less without super packs or a protect weapon system. Which I think it pretty ridiculous for one of U.N. Spacy's main fighters.

Must be why all of those VF-11s get shot-up in Macross 7. ; ) lol

Too bad, because it is a nice looking machine.

Ya know I still don't accept that the VF-11 has no capability to accept underwing hardpoints. Otherwise this would leave it armed only with it's 30mm gunpod and headlaser for atmospheric combat. That is unless the streamlined atmsopheric FAST Packs shown in Nightmarish invasion are fitted.

And for space based combat, the standard VF-11B&C FAST Packs certainly look large enough to hold more micro-missiles than the VF-17's shoulder launchers.

However, a theory I've developed during the last decade since first watching Plus and 7 is that by the 2040s' or possibly even earlier, the trend in combat is that missiles of all sorts seem to be far less effective and used less frequently than say during the Space War One era.

In both Plus and 7 we see gunpods and beam weapons being used and scoring hits far more frequently than missiles. Some examples that spring to mind are: -

• The opening fight in Plus ep # 1. None of the VF-11Bs use missiles instead relying on gunpods and bayonet. And when Isamu is targeted by enemy missiles, he outruns them with comparitive ease.
  
• During Isamu and Guld's final combat, no hits are scored with missiles and the missiles fired at each other seem to be easily dodged or shot down.
  
• During the first time the Macross 7 fleet encounters the Varuta, the VF-11Cs choose to attack with gunpods only. This perhaps reflects a belief by pilots that missiles are not regarded as being very effective. In fact, it is not until at least episode # 5 or 6 IIRC, that we even see a VF-11C firing missiles.
  

This decreased use of missiles is probably due in part to the increased thrust of VFs giving them a better ability to outrun missiles, improved effectiveness of defensive systems, such as PPBs, stronger armor, better anti-missile tracking, improved decoys etc.

Graham

[Graham]

Another possibility is that the scene of the VF-17 firing its missiles in the Macross 7 movie was nt well animated, but could show the VF-17's maximum micro missiles load being fired from its shoulder launchers. If the launchers are capable of firing at such a rapid rate. It could have been the rapid firing salvos of 2-2-2-1 from each shoulder (14 missiles total).

I still doubt that the VF-17's shoulder launchers could hold so many missiles. After spending a lot of time studying the line-art as well as the Bandai 1/65 toy, Bandai 1/144 model and Wave 1/72 Battroid mode garage kit, I'm thinking that the maximum capacity in the shoulder launchers is probably 2 missiles each for two of the launchers and either 2 or 3 missiles for the other 2 launchers, meaning a total of between 8 to 10 missiles.

Graham

[Aurel Tristen]

For viewing reference:

http://nanashi.macrossmecha.info/resrc/cat...eapon_bays.html

[JB0]

This decreased use of missiles is probably due in part to the increased thrust of VFs giving them a better ability to outrun missiles, improved effectiveness of defensive systems, such as PPBs, stronger armor, better anti-missile tracking, improved decoys etc.

I doubt added thrust is the reason. A missile, free, from the restrictions of a human pilot, can be engineered to be faster and more agile.

I would bet that the high maneuverability missiles tested in Plus are more than a match for any VF speed and agility-wise.

Just like it is now, dodging a missile isn't really an option except in special situations.

I'd bet improved countermeasures are a large part.

Better radar-absorbant materials, brighter flares, maybe even some internal ECM.

All serving to make the missile's job harder by the day.

But most importantly, in space combat you can engage the enemy from far larger distances than in an atmosphere. A light-based weapon is going to be the only really effective weapon in a lot of engagements, just due to travel times. That should make lasers the preferred weapon. *

All other things being equal, first runner-up should be missiles, because they hit higher speeds than bullets(assuming conventional firearms and not railguns) and can home in.

But at the distances they have to travel, it's easier to get shot down, which isn't going to happen with bullets. Which is probably why the bullet is more popular in later Macross installments, as they have problems with downed missiles as early as Mac0, which is relatively close-range combat.

*Realistically, the first strikes could be exchanged while the enemy is still light-minutes away, making conventional fighters almost useless. But 2 ships duking it out across planetary orbits isn't as cool as a frantic dogfight.

[Graham]

I doubt added thrust is the reason. A missile, free, from the restrictions of a human pilot, can be engineered to be faster and more agile.

I would bet that the high maneuverability missiles tested in Plus are more than a match for any VF speed and agility-wise.

I'd say that was true with today's technology and conventinal Jet engines vs conventional missiles.

However in Macross, epecially the later more advanced 2040 era VFs, have such an insane thrust-to-weight ratio, acceleration and top speed that at least based on watching the anime it seems like VF propulsion has outstripped missile propulsion.

We've seen time and again that as long as the VF pilot is aware of an incoming missile, he stands a good chance of outrunning it if he can crank up the speed (note, I'm only refering to the more modern VFs, not older types like the VF-1, & VF-0 series).

Graham

[JB0]

I doubt added thrust is the reason. A missile, free, from the restrictions of a human pilot, can be engineered to be faster and more agile. 

I would bet that the high maneuverability missiles tested in Plus are more than a match for any VF speed and agility-wise.

I'd say that was true with today's technology and conventinal Jet engines vs conventional missiles.

However in Macross, epecially the later more advanced 2040 era VFs, have such an insane thrust-to-weight ratio, acceleration and top speed that at least based on watching the anime it seems like VF propulsion has outstripped missile propulsion.

We've seen time and again that as long as the VF pilot is aware of an incoming missile, he stands a good chance of outrunning it if he can crank up the speed (note, I'm only refering to the more modern VFs, not older types like the VF-1, & VF-0 series).

Graham

I suppose from a distance.

Doesn't really make sense, honestly. You'd think they'd upgrade missiles while upgrading fighters.

That's part of why I suspect some form of internal ECM. It'd confuse the missile while not being visible to viewers.

...

It would also explain why the high-maneuverability missiles use proximity sensors instead of impact sensors. It reduces the chance they'll get lost, particularly in those last few moments when VF pilots tend to pull something fancy.

Obviously the sensor needs some tuning to deal with the latest generation of fighters since Guld buzzed them without triggering them, and Isamu triggered them too far away to get caught in the "explosion", but ...

And honestly, I've wondered before about the acceleration they're reaching now.

We've seen in Plus that the YF-21, at least, is as much of a hazard to it's pilot as the enemy is.

Perhaps they can justify the extra power as an aid for the less aerodynamic battroid and GERWALK modes, but in fighter mode it's just insane, as is evidenced by the fact that they have a limiter that apparently controls linear acceleration as well as maneuvering.

[Aurel Tristen]

stealth multipurpose gunpod, with beam/laser adaptor opition(s) from Macross 7

Studio Nue has not stated that the gunpod beam adaptor from Macross 7 is a laser. This is made-up.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../variable/vf17/

That is not what I meant. What of Macross VF-X 2's VF-17 laser gun[pod]?

[EganLoo]

stealth multipurpose gunpod, with beam/laser adaptor opition(s) from Macross 7

Studio Nue has not stated that the gunpod beam adaptor from Macross 7 is a laser. This is made-up.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../variable/vf17/

That is not what I meant. What of Macross VF-X 2's VF-17 laser gun[pod]?

Macross VF-X 2's so-called "laser gun pod" is not a gunpod adaptor, and it was not in Macross 7. (Shoji Kawamori's previous caution note about game material still applies.)

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_.../variable/vf17/

[EganLoo]

That leaves the VF-11 Thunderbolt missile-less without super packs or a protect weapon system. Which I think it pretty ridiculous for one of U.N. Spacy's main fighters. Even the VF-5000B, even though it was a lightweight fighter-it still had missiles without FAST packs.... in the beginning anyways. The VF-5000G/-T has propellant tanks which may or may not have exit ports for the machine's base leg micro missile launcher additional launchers. They appear just to be propellant tanks with cut-outs for the missiles to pass through and not additional detachable launchers themselves.

The VF-5000G's leg pods are specifically described as micro-missile pods as well and are not just "propellant tanks with cut-outs for the missiles to pass through."

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...ariable/vf5000/

[Aurel Tristen]

That leaves the VF-11 Thunderbolt missile-less without super packs or a protect weapon system. Which I think it pretty ridiculous for one of U.N. Spacy's main fighters. Even the VF-5000B, even though it was a lightweight fighter-it still had missiles without FAST packs.... in the beginning anyways. The VF-5000G/-T has propellant tanks which may or may not have exit ports for the machine's base leg micro missile launcher additional launchers. They appear just to be propellant tanks with cut-outs for the missiles to pass through and not additional detachable launchers themselves.

The VF-5000G's leg pods are specifically described as micro-missile pods as well and are not just "propellant tanks with cut-outs for the missiles to pass through."

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...ariable/vf5000/

Very good. The illustrations are almost seemless... its a little hard to see where the pods begin.