Space War One battlefield success

[hellohikaru]

Yes, I'm talking about the Macross Zero Tomcat, it's an F-14D Super Tomcat I think.

Yes they are Super Tomcats(nozzle and TCS change)...but didn't Hasegawa used a F-14A model to potray Shin and Lasalle's jet ?

[CAG]

Didn't the British defense of Crete prove so costly for the Germans that they decided to forgo an airborne assault on Malta?

Midway was a fleet engagement without the vast inequalities that existed between the Zentradi armada and Spacy forces, and nowhere's near the numbers difference.

Don't really see the analogy.

[0Coota0]

didn't Hasegawa used a F-14A model to potray Shin and Lasalle's jet ?

Yup,and rember it may look like an F-14D but maybe it's an E model, better engines, different avionics, hopefully beter ejection seats. Afterall Maccross Zero takes place a few years from now.

[Unknown Target]

Excuse me, I didn't mean Midway, it's been awhile since I've looked up the battles.

Anyways, the battles I am talking about are 1) Where a force of only 20 wildcats held off a huge Japanese invasion for almost a week or so, gradually degrading their forces. The other situation was where the British, I think in Africa, flying completely obsolete (old inter-war biplanes) aircraft, held off the Luftwaffe until the war's end, gradually upgrading their fighters as they became available.

[hellohikaru]

But the Hasegawa kit can't be potraying an advanced "E" model F-14. Still has the bad ol' TF30s and they didn't even bother to replace the Sparrows with AMRAAM. I hope to see the Raptors and Gripens in Mzero too but i guess it will not happen

[0Coota0]

But the Hasegawa kit can't be potraying an advanced "E" model F-14. Still has the bad ol' TF30s and they didn't even bother to replace the Sparrows with AMRAAM. I hope to see the Raptors and Gripens in Mzero too but i guess it will not happen

I agree compltely, I was just using Maccross as a reason to envison a newer more advanced F-14 "sigh"

[imode]

Excuse me, I didn't mean Midway, it's been awhile since I've looked up the battles.

Anyways, the battles I am talking about are 1) Where a force of only 20 wildcats held off a huge Japanese invasion for almost a week or so, gradually degrading their forces. The other situation was where the British, I think in Africa, flying completely obsolete (old inter-war biplanes) aircraft, held off the Luftwaffe until the war's end, gradually upgrading their fighters as they became available.

Was that Wake Island?

[Druna Skass]

Sounds like Wake to me...

I suppose the Battle of Britain could be used as an analogy, with the Germans sending hords of aircraft across the channel (Regults, Glaugs, Gnerls) and a few RAF fighters driving them back (Valkyries), and the Macross being a stand in for Britain.

[ewilen]

Yes, and there are a few analogies in the way the British enjoyed tactical advantage due to the German fighters' short range and consequent lack of loiter time, so the German bombers were relatively easy prey for the defending British fighters. As well, the Germans eventually chose to attack cities instead of the British airfields and radar installations, which was a mistake analogous to trying to capture the Macross before the Valkyries were sufficiently worn down. Finally, I have read that the Germans put themselves at a disadvantage due to improper escort tactics (putting the fighters in close formation with the bombers) and suffered as well from the inferiority of the Me 110 fighter in dogfights.

[F-ZeroOne]

May I suggest that those interested in the Battle of Britain and the defence of Malta look up two excellent books; first, "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Stephen Bungay & "Fortress Malta" by James Holland. Both are extremely fine reads and the "The Most Dangerous Enemy", especially, explodes quite a few myths.

The RAF were not quite as outnumbered as often supposed; if one includes all aircraft the numbers were only slightly in favour of the Germans and much more importantly, the RAF had the bigger reserve - the Luftwaffe were forced to use almost all their strength up front, whereas the RAF were able to keep feeding in replacements. Granted, the replacements were not very expereinced and all too often fell victim to the Luftwaffe experten, but all the RAF had to do was last long enough for the weather to become bad enough to make an invasion impossible.

Additionally, the Germans pretty much did not have much idea of how to go about conquering a country entirely by air - not surprisingly, as no-one else had ever done it either. The RAF were in a similar boat, no-one having tried to defend a country entirely by air before, but on the other hand, they had directed a great deal of thought about it ( much more than the Germans had given to invading Great Britain ) and crucially, the two men in the most important posts - Hugh Dowding, C-in-C Fighter Command, and Air ViceMarshal Keith park, in command of the vital 11 Group area, probably knew more about fighter defence than anyone else on Earth at the time.

( Keith Park, in fact, not only stopped the Luftwaffe over England, he then did it again when placed in charge of the Malta air defence later in the war. One of his first questions, upon being told Malta was the most bombed place on the planet, was "Why don't you stop the bombing?". He did just that - in three weeks ).

[Batou]

Keep in mind that even if the cockpit is depressurized, the breath mask is the only thing that's needed, not a full space helmet.

In atmosphere, perhaps.

In space they'd quickly die as the gas in their bodies (oxygen/nitrogen) rapidly expands and forms bubbles, boils away, and turns them into an agonizing hideous and bloody mess. No kidding. They'd be dead long before asphyxiation had a chance to set in. And no, despite popular miconception, people's bodies don't explode in a vacuum - it'd probably be a quicker and less painful death if they did, though. This is essentially what happens to deep sea divers who surface too quickly, though on a much more extreme end of the spectrum.

The entire flight suit would have to be completely sealed and pressurized in order to survive if the cockpit depressurized in space.

[JB0]

Keep in mind that even if the cockpit is depressurized, the breath mask is the only thing that's needed, not a full space helmet.

In atmosphere, perhaps.

In space they'd quickly die as the gas in their bodies (oxygen/nitrogen) rapidly expands and forms bubbles, boils away, and turns them into an agonizing hideous and bloody mess. No kidding. They'd be dead long before asphyxiation had a chance to set in. And no, despite popular miconception, people's bodies don't explode in a vacuum - it'd probably be a quicker and less painful death if they did, though. This is essentially what happens to deep sea divers who surface too quickly, though on a much more extreme end of the spectrum.

The entire flight suit would have to be completely sealed and pressurized in order to survive if the cockpit depressurized in space.

Aren't we talking about the VF-0 here?

A similar problem would apply at very high altitudes, though the VF-0 isn't capable of operating near that high.

[imode]

Keep in mind that even if the cockpit is depressurized, the breath mask is the only thing that's needed, not a full space helmet.

In atmosphere, perhaps.

In space they'd quickly die as the gas in their bodies (oxygen/nitrogen) rapidly expands and forms bubbles, boils away, and turns them into an agonizing hideous and bloody mess. No kidding. They'd be dead long before asphyxiation had a chance to set in. And no, despite popular miconception, people's bodies don't explode in a vacuum - it'd probably be a quicker and less painful death if they did, though. This is essentially what happens to deep sea divers who surface too quickly, though on a much more extreme end of the spectrum.

The entire flight suit would have to be completely sealed and pressurized in order to survive if the cockpit depressurized in space.

Oooh, brings back memories of Event Horizon.

[ewilen]

No, no bloody mess from being exposed to a vaccuum.

One link here.

[Batou]

No, no bloody mess from being exposed to a vaccuum.

One link here.

Hmmm.... What do you know. Great link, btw. I stand corrected.

They still wouldn't last very long. From Bioastronautics Data Book, Second edition, NASA SP-3006, edited by James F. Parker and Vita R. West, 1973, in the article "Chapter 1: Barometric Pressure," by Charles E. Billings:

Some degree of consciousness will probably be retained for 9 to 11 seconds (see chapter 2 under Hypoxia). In rapid sequence thereafter, paralysis will be followed by generalized convulsions and paralysis once again. During this time, water vapor will form rapidly in the soft tissues and somewhat less rapidly in the venous blood. This evolution of water vapor will cause marked swelling of the body to perhaps twice its normal volume unless it is restrained by a pressure suit. (It has been demonstrated that a properly fitted elastic garment can entirely prevent ebullism at pressures as low as 15 mm Hg absolute [Webb, 1969, 1970].) Heart rate may rise initially, but will fall rapidly thereafter. Arterial blood pressure will also fall over a period of 30 to 60 seconds, while venous pressure rises due to distention of the venous system by gas and vapor. Venous pressure will meet or exceed arterial pressure within one minute. There will be virtually no effective circulation of blood. After an initial rush of gas from the lungs during decompression, gas and water vapor will continue to flow outward through the airways. This continual evaporation of water will cool the mouth and nose to near-freezing temperatures; the remainder of the body will also become cooled, but more slowly. "Cook and Bancroft (1966) reported occasional deaths of animals due to fibrillation of the heart during the first minute of exposure to near vacuum conditions. Ordinarily, however, survival was the rule if recompression occurred within about 90 seconds. ... Once heart action ceased, death was inevitable, despite attempts at resuscitation.... [on recompression] Breathing usually began spontaneously... Neurological problems, including blindness and other defects in vision, were common after exposures (see problems due to evolved gas), but usually disappeared fairly rapidly.

It is very unlikely that a human suddenly exposed to a vacuum would have more than 5 to 10 seconds to help himself. If immediate help is at hand, although one's appearance and condition will be grave, it is reasonable to assume that recompression to a tolerable pressure (200 mm Hg, 3.8 psia) within 60 to 90 seconds could result in survival, and possibly in rather rapid recovery.

Maybe not bloody, but it sounds messy to me.

[Basara Nekki]

If I remember correctly, the 0s were fitted with jet engines because the new thermonuclear turbine engines were undergoing a last minute debugging. Given if this 'bug' were a minor bug, by the final battles of this series could indeed take place in space given enough of a pause somewhere along the line for swapping out engines. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

[Skull Leader]

man, that's a damn nifty webpage.... that answers a lot of my questions about vacuum.

So, what's the lesson we all should learn? If someone rips your space helmet off, don't hold your breath! Safer to take your chances and let unconsciousness overtake you.

Edited September 13, 2003 by Skull Leader

[JB0]

I think the VF-0 was designed to use jet engines.

From Macross Compendium:

Trial production model and testbed for advanced jet engines and Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed.

[Basara Nekki]

I stand corrected.

[Batou]

So, what's the lesson we all should learn? If someone rips your space helmet off, don't hold your breath! Safer to take your chances and let unconsciousness overtake you.

I don't think you'd be able to hold your breath. The pressure would just be too great, and there's nothign your diaphragm could do to keep the air in. Even if it could, you wouldn't want to - the difference in pressure would cause your lungs to rupture. And then you'd really be in trouble.

[Mr March]

No, no bloody mess from being exposed to a vaccuum.

One link here.

Great reading. Thanks for the link ewilen