Space War One battlefield success

[JB0]

Two words. Maximillian Jenius.

Micronians had him and the zentradis didn't

We got Max, they got... Kamjin.

No wonder we won.

[Batou]

Batou I'm not really sure now what it is you're trying to suggest.  Originally you suggested the UN SPacy pilots were complete newbies without any sort of space flight ability at all.  Now you seem to be suggesting the Valkyrie pilots may have had some space experience but they were totally inadequate against the ability of the Zentradi pilots in space.

I never said the valks were inadequate - far from it. It was almost entirely due to their technical advantage that they survived long enough to get back to Earth. That and the Zentran's bone-headed tactics as far as trying to take the Macross in one piece by sending in outclassed battlepods to their doom time and time again in an attempt to board and sieze it (if they just wanted to destroy it, they could have done that from orbit before it ever left S Ataria). I do believe, however, that the VF-1's would have been much more effective in more capable hands - at least early on in the war. They weren't outmatched, but the Regult pilots were in their element in deep space, and when you've got 200 valks vs 1000's of pods, any advantage is going to cause problems and casualties.

Anyway, I think what I was trying to say is that while the VF-1 was indeed vastly technically superior to the Zentradi strike craft they were pitted against, their advantage was dulled by inexperienced pilots. Towards the end of SW1, that would obviously change, but during the first few months, I bet there were a lot of friendly losses. From what I recall, it was mentioned several times in the original series as well as in Macross Zero that most of the experienced fighter pilots were decimated during the Unification wars (remember Roy and whatsisface talking about the 'chicks'?). The wars didn't end until around the time when the Zentradi arrived (maybe they were still going on - didn't they blame the "accident" on S Ataria on anti-UN terrorists?). It's then reasonable to also assume that the more experienced pilots wouldn't be stationed aboard the Macross when they had bigger and more tangible fish to fry in the form of the Anti-UN forces - you have to remember they had no idea when if ever the aliens would come.

The UN Spacy was operating manned Lancer II space fighters and Valkyries all stationed in space.  It's ludicrous to suggest these craft had no pilots or those pilots operating them had little to no experience in space.  ANY kind of military operations in space would require the UN Spacy to have qualified personnel piloting shuttles, operating space-operable construction equipment, patrolling UN SPacy supply lanes, escourting UN Spacy military assets...the list goes on.

Agreed - they were qualified to fly in space. However, actual combat in space was still pretty new, and whatever tactics they had were for the most part unproven under real combat conditions. The incident on the Tsiolkovsky aside, there just wasn't a whole lot of fighting in space up until that point. Being capable of flying a craft in space and being combat effective in it are two very different things.

You simply cannot run an air force without pilots capable of flying planes.  THe UN Spacy cannot run a space force without pilots capable of flying in space.

The only thing one could argue is a lack of space combat experience, but certainly not any total abscence of it.  Historical records of Space War One don't mention specific battles of Valkyries fighting this and Valkyries fighting that...but they did.  Arguing semantics isn't enough to overraide the facts of operating a military in space.

But they didn't have much of a military in space - they were a lone underequipped battle cruiser without any hope of reinforcements, supplies, and now a 70K strong civillian population to worry about. The Macross wasn't called into action fully equipped for the situation they were thrust into - they were about to undertake their maiden flight, and weren't entirely sure how a lot of the systems even worked. Under those circumstances, they'd have to make due with whatever means at their disposal - including, but not limited to, putting every warm body they could manage into the seat of every valk and destroid they had at their disposal.

On the final point, the newer pilots like Kakizaki, Max, and Hikaru were trained during war time.  When war breaks out of course there isn't the luxury of training pilots for years and years. 

Again, agreed, but faced between anhilation in a vacuum, or recruiting some newbs with some civillian flight experience, but no combat experience, was a logical if desperate choice. It would be especially challenging for those who learned to fly in atmosphere to unlearn old habits that might get them killed. I'm sure they'd learn, but it takes time, and time was something they didn't have in vast quantities. I imagine for every Hikaru and Max they recruited, there were a disproportionately greater number of poor schlubs who bought in deep space.

Edited September 10, 2003 by Batou

[Skull Leader]

Ewilen, don't expect to find too much there... they don't show a whole lot (went back and watched my DVD). I even seem to recall reading somewhere that the scout-pod, despite having the most technologically advanced radar systems and whatnot, was STILL extremely substandard compared to UN technology (that may be translated from the Memory Perfect book....) The Quel-Quallies (theater scouts) were large, ungainly affairs that had poor protection and even poorer sensory suites.

[Mr March]

No Batou, what you originally said is that the UN Spacy pilots lacked any space flight experience...a total fabrication. You suggested this lack of space flight experience would affect their combat performance...obivously not true based upon the fact that losses in space were never stated at any time to be greater than losses on Earth.

2.) The Zentradi were especially more accustomed to fighting in deep space, whereas this was completely new to the UN Spacy pilots. Flying a fighter in space has to be tough enough even for experienced pilots (no drag from atmosphere, nothing to slow you down, all that inertia that doesn't bleed off on turns, etc, which all means you pretty much have to un-learn all of your fighter-pilot instincts as they will now get you killed in Zero-G), much less having to juggle two different flight modes (Gerwalk, Battroid). I'm assuming they had some pretty effective flight simulators for training the newbs, but nothing compares to the real thing.

UN Spacy pilots certainly had experience flying in space. I'm not talking about what you claim to have written, only what you did write. This point, as originally stated, has been proved false.

Next point, the VF-1 Valkyrie is not vastly technolgically superior. The Valkyrie and the Regult are very similar in performance and technological sophistication. They had similar manuvering capabilities, they used the same power sources, they were closely matched in velocity and acceleration, blah, blah, blah. The Valkyrie simply enjoys many elements of practical design and versatility over the Regult, resulting in several advantages. In no way does this result in a gap that's "vastly technolocially superior". That cannot be said even of the VF-11 to a Regult.

Next point, the UN Spacy had a larger presence in space as far as military vehicles than all the Valkyries on board the Macross. A single ARMD had 78 MANNED Lancer Fighters, flown by pilots who knew how to fly in space...a direct rebutal of your original statement. There were also an unknown number of MANNED CF Valkyries stationed aboard the ARMDs who would know how to fly in space as well. Each ARMD also had 270 unmanned Ghost fighters and other space craft. That's 156 manned fighters (yes, pilots capable of flying in space), 540 Ghost fighters, and two capital ships just in orbit. There was the large-scale Apollo base under construction on the moon. There was the large-scale (again note the words LARGE and SCALE) manufacturing station at L-5 in lunar orbit. The permanent Mars base was built. Construction of the Oberth space destroyers at L-5 and construction of the SDF-2 at Apollo. Test detonation of reaction warheads on the lunar surface. Test flights of the VF-X1 in space. The Tsiolkovsky incident (yes, actual SPACE COMBAT).

Not much of a military in space? There was more military activity going on in space than the whole of South Ataria island.

Finally, there are many points you raise that were never in dispute. The Zentradi pilots being more capable in space than an atmosphere, hence irrelevant to my rebuttal. The choice to recruit pilots in space used by myself as a successful rebuttal, hence irrelevant to further debate. Et cetera. If you have anything more to the original point without sidetracking the discussion, then please present them.

[ewilen]

I forget, how was Mars base lost? In Robotech they say it was the Zentradi. But in SDF: Macross, I believe the base was destroyed by anti-UN forces, or at least (many of) the personnel were attacked by the anti-UN on their way to Earth. If so, that would be another case of space combat before SW1.

[JB0]

I forget, how was Mars base lost? In Robotech they say it was the Zentradi. But in SDF: Macross, I believe the base was destroyed by anti-UN forces, or at least (many of) the personnel were attacked by the anti-UN on their way to Earth. If so, that would be another case of space combat before SW1.

From Macross Compendium:

2005

...

August

Withdrawal from Mars Base led by Harry Miler.

September

The third Oberth class space destroyer Tsiolkovsky is hijacked by the Anti-United Nations Military Organization.

September 8

1800: The return fleet from Mars is destroyed with 3055 United Nations forces personnel onboard by this [aforementioned] destroyer's attack.

September 10

Official announcement of the Mars return fleet's destruction by the United Nations Military Headquarters.

And I don't think Robotech altered the timeline enough for Mars Base to be "destroyed" by Zentradi. I'm pretty sure it was still "destroyed" before the Zentradi made it to the solar system.

(we have to do the "destroyed" bit, because the base was intact)

[Mr March]

My thanks JBO. It was actually pretty sad. Assuming no one was using fold drives, it must have taken the Mar Return Fleet a long time to get back to Earth. Then they finally make it and are destroyed by ANti-UN forces in one of their own starships.

[maxjenius81]

My thanks JBO. It was actually pretty sad. Assuming no one was using fold drives, it must have taken the Mar Return Fleet a long time to get back to Earth. Then they finally make it and are destroyed by ANti-UN forces in one of their own starships.

Probably not too long. I mean yeah no fold drives, but basic engine tech would still be far in advance of our modern tech. I imagine it could at least achieve double the speed, possibly faster. Remember it took Macross nine months or so to go from beyond Pluto to Earth.

[CAG]

JB0 Posted on Sep 10 2003, 12:48 AM

And I don't think Robotech altered the timeline enough for Mars Base to be "destroyed" by Zentradi. I'm pretty sure it was still "destroyed" before the Zentradi made it to the solar system.

Correct. The base is already destroyed by the time that Breetai and Exedore's cruiser arrives at Mars, and they state something to the effect that it was destroyed during the last war.

[ewilen]

Ah, okay, thanks for clearing that up, folks.

[Mr March]

Probably not too long.  I mean yeah no fold drives, but basic engine tech would still be far in advance of our modern tech.  I imagine it could at least achieve double the speed, possibly faster.  Remember it took Macross nine months or so to go from beyond Pluto to Earth.

The mean distance from Earth to Mars is 78.3 million kilometers. It's so far it takes light 4.35 minutes to travel from Earth to Mars.

Historical records indicate the return fleet departed Mars in August and was destroyed September 8, 2005. So the Mars Return Fleet took roughly a month to return to Earth (assuming the Tsiolkovsky attack occured in Earth space and assuming the Mars Return Fleet departed August 8th). To travel 78.3 million kilometers in one month would mean that the Mars Fleet would need to traverse 2.6 million kilometers per day, thus was travelling at a velocity of 30 km/sec (or .0001 percent of light speed).

Indeed faster as you've suggested, but actually much faster than double the speed of our current tech. As it is, it takes years for us to send stuff to Mars.

If the Macross took 9 months to return from Pluto to Earth, it would have needed to travel 21.2 million kilometers each day. (246.5 kilometers per second or 8.22% the speed of light). However, the Macross was never travelling in a straight line nor was the journey uninterrupted. In the series it was stated the Macross was forced off course by the Zentradi several times and the Macross actually made stops at Jupiter and Mars during that nine month period. Hence the Macross would need to be capable of a much faster velocity. Many unofficial sources state the Macross as capable of 0.20 c. That's probably a fair estimate of the maximum velocity of the Macross.

Edited September 11, 2003 by Mr March

[Isamu Atreides 86]

then that might explain the infamous aging problems of the Macross crew (Max and Millia, specifically). i don't remember much of my physics class, but i understand that the faster you go, and closer to c you get, the slower you age. even if the Macross only manages .2 C, we can assume that future ships go even faster, maybe even .5 c or faster. thus, a 50-60 year old Max ages slower.....

[JB0]

then that might explain the infamous aging problems of the Macross crew (Max and Millia, specifically). i don't remember much of my physics class, but i understand that the faster you go, and closer to c you get, the slower you age. even if the Macross only manages .2 C, we can assume that future ships go even faster, maybe even .5 c or faster. thus, a 50-60 year old Max ages slower.....

I would assume that's 50-60 relative to Max.

Seriously, what's wrong with medical advances?

[Isamu Atreides 86]

then that might explain the infamous aging problems of the Macross crew (Max and Millia, specifically). i don't remember much of my physics class, but i understand that the faster you go, and closer to c you get, the slower you age. even if the Macross only manages .2 C, we can assume that future ships go even faster, maybe even .5 c or faster. thus, a 50-60 year old Max ages slower.....

I would assume that's 50-60 relative to Max.

Seriously, what's wrong with medical advances?

yeah, but i mean, 50-60 earth standard years from here on the gound is different, or so i thought, when travelling a close to the speed of light in outer space. i'm all for the medical advances, as well, but i was simply offering a suggestion.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Maybe somewhere during Macross Zero, we'll get to see Roy or Shin and Edgar engage the Anti-UN forces in space. OoOoOo. That'd be hella tight. And then that's where DD or Nora die. Who'd like to see a space battle instead of an air battle? I know I would.

[0Coota0]

Maybe somewhere during Macross Zero, we'll get to see Roy or Shin and Edgar engage the Anti-UN forces in space. OoOoOo. That'd be hella tight. And then that's where DD or Nora die. Who'd like to see a space battle instead of an air battle? I know I would.

Wouldn't it be difficult to fly a fighter in space that has jet engines?

[Macross_Fanboy]

Perhaps...but you never know, they might launch from the Earth like the Super Valkyries did in the original TV show. Afterall, I think the VF-0s can have FAST Pack armor fitted. Super hardcore fans, step in.

[Mr March]

then that might explain the infamous aging problems of the Macross crew (Max and Millia, specifically). i don't remember much of my physics class, but i understand that the faster you go, and closer to c you get, the slower you age. even if the Macross only manages .2 C, we can assume that future ships go even faster, maybe even .5 c or faster. thus, a 50-60 year old Max ages slower.....

Hmm, thats interesting. Although I beleive (I'm going out on a limb here) that time dilation and such stuff doesn't really get noticeable until you get up to velociites like .75 c and higher. I think red shift/blue shift only begins to occur at .5 c or higher. Also, as I understand relativistic travel (going out on another limb...it fun out here), time dilation doesn't take place until the return trip. People on Earth age the same as people in space as long as the people in space are moving away from the Earth. The moment you start going back, then time dilation and relativity become a pain. However, since the Macross didn't actually travel relativistically away from Earth (they used the Space Fold), I'm not sure if that theory applies. Ack, I'm way out of my league with this one

Still, maybe the speed might be high enough to do something to Max. I'm not that sure.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Perhaps...but you never know, they might launch from the Earth like the Super Valkyries did in the original TV show. Afterall, I think the VF-0s can have FAST Pack armor fitted. Super hardcore fans, step in.

if they did, they'd have to be VF-1s, not VF-0s. the fuel thing would make it hard for a JP fueled engine to fly in space for any significant amount of time or at all. but seeing VF-1s in zero would be tight. added to that, we don't know if the SV-51/52s are space capable, but the same reasoning would apply if they used regular JP.....

Ack, I'm way out of my league with this one

me too, Mr. March. i majored in history!

[Mr March]

Ack, I'm way out of my league with this one

me too, Mr. March. i majored in history!

LOL!

Finance for me

[JB0]

then that might explain the infamous aging problems of the Macross crew (Max and Millia, specifically). i don't remember much of my physics class, but i understand that the faster you go, and closer to c you get, the slower you age. even if the Macross only manages .2 C, we can assume that future ships go even faster, maybe even .5 c or faster. thus, a 50-60 year old Max ages slower.....

Hmm, thats interesting. Although I beleive (I'm going out on a limb here) that time dilation and such stuff doesn't really get noticeable until you get up to velociites like .75 c and higher. I think red shift/blue shift only begins to occur at .5 c or higher. Also, as I understand relativistic travel (going out on another limb...it fun out here), time dilation doesn't take place until the return trip. People on Earth age the same as people in space as long as the people in space are moving away from the Earth. The moment you start going back, then time dilation and relativity become a pain. However, since the Macross didn't actually travel relativistically away from Earth (they used the Space Fold), I'm not sure if that theory applies. Ack, I'm way out of my league with this one

Still, maybe the speed might be high enough to do something to Max. I'm not that sure.

Like I said, I assume ages are calculated relative to the person.

If max is 50, it's 50 Max-years, not 50 Earth-years.

And time dilation works no matter what direction you travel.

As long as you're moving, the flow of time's changing.

Dunno the dilation rates, though.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Yeah, I'm still wondering if the SV-51s and 52s are space worthy, and the VF-0s too, but I'm not so sure about the series yet. So far they've kept the love thing out, maybe one reason why the series isn't that hot.

[JB0]

Yeah, I'm still wondering if the SV-51s and 52s are space worthy, and the VF-0s too, but I'm not so sure about the series yet. So far they've kept the love thing out, maybe one reason why the series isn't that hot.

The VF-0 IS NOT space worthy.

Jet engines operate by burning fuel.

Burning fuel requires air.

There is no air in space.

Hence, a VF-0 in space isn't going anywhere.

It stands to reason that a vehicle incapable of operating in space wasn't built with space in consideration.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Um...I'm going to try and major in aviation and writing. So I'll stay out of the speed-of-light-business.

[Macross_Fanboy]

Well then, why does the flight helmet completely come down over the face of the pilot? Something like that is more suited for operations in space rather than atmospheric operations on this planet. Wouldn't you think? But there's a con to my little helmet thing, because the Tomcats also used that same system, but it makes no sense to me anyways.

[JELEINEN]

Well then, why does the flight helmet completely come down over the face of the pilot? Something like that is more suited for operations in space rather than atmospheric operations on this planet. Wouldn't you think? But there's a con to my little helmet thing, because the Tomcats also used that same system, but it makes no sense to me anyways.

At a guess, I imagine they need it to breath if the cockpit ever got depressurized (I'm assuming they're pressurized to begin with).

[Macross_Fanboy]

Keep in mind that even if the cockpit is depressurized, the breath mask is the only thing that's needed, not a full space helmet.

[JB0]

Keep in mind that even if the cockpit is depressurized, the breath mask is the only thing that's needed, not a full space helmet.

Protects them from canopy fragments?

[Isamu Atreides 86]

maybe the helmet also serves as an aiming mechanism, akin to the helmets in the Apache? perhaps it supplies more information to the pilot?

[Skull Leader]

well, you saw how it functioned for Roy.... the eye-tracking lasers on the top of the visor tracked the movement of roy's eyes relative to the targets outside and then haloed them on his visor... it seems to me that it serves as a full-time HUD.... ALSO, as a matter of comfort, it would be a lot less stressful on the pilot to have his entire face protected in one environment, as opposed to the mouth/nose being covered one way, and the eyes covered in a different way... it just makes things easier (not to mention the new oxygen hoses are apparently reduced in size and made internal)

[0Coota0]

Well then, why does the flight helmet completely come down over the face of the pilot? Something like that is more suited for operations in space rather than atmospheric operations on this planet. Wouldn't you think? But there's a con to my little helmet thing, because the Tomcats also used that same system, but it makes no sense to me anyways.

you'rereferring to the Macross 0 Tomcat, right, not a real one?

[Unknown Target]

Ever read about the defense of Malta or Midway during WWII? They are quite easy to compair, read up on them, and they might provide a view on why the Macross survived

[Macross_Fanboy]

Yes, I'm talking about the Macross Zero Tomcat, it's an F-14D Super Tomcat I think.

[ewilen]

Ever read about the defense of Malta or Midway during WWII? They are quite easy to compair, read up on them, and they might provide a view on why the Macross survived

Midway: I don't see it at all, but I don't want to go into details as that would take us far off topic.

Malta: I don't know anything about it.

Battle of Britain might be a better analog, albeit in a very general way.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

i say its more like the 1973 israeli-arab war. through better fighters (max, roy), the smaller country was able to defeat greater numbers.just by sheer ferocity and stubborness, did they win, same way as the macross.