Space War One battlefield success

[Mr March]

Well, it's a lazy Sunday at home and I'm playing around with the new FAST Packs for my 1/48 Valkyrie by beloved Yamato. Being a Macross fan, I can't help but think about some aspects of Macross while enjoying my most recent purchase and perhaps re-examine some of my long held skepticisms about one of my favorite science fiction stories. So here are some thoughts to ponder...

One of the things that always irked me slighty about Macross was the success of the UN Spacy against the Zentradi in Space War One. The first episode saw nearly the entire UN Spacy fleet destroyed by the Zentradi, leaving only the Macross, its crew, and what mecha it had to fight dozens of Zentradi warships and hundreds of Zentradi mecha for the majority of the show.

Granted, the SDF-Macross was the most powerful warship in SW1 (Space War One); and it's a given that the ship possessed one of the most potent anti-capital ship and anti-mecha defense strategies of that first space war (mostly thanks to the Super-Dimension-Energy cannons and the nearly 600 destroids stationed aboard). And I know there were well over one hundred GF-3000E Ghost fighters which got little recognition for all their combat missions against the Zentradi. Now I'll give you all that...but it always seemed just a little bit of a stretch that the Valkyries would enjoy as much success as they did against the Zentradi mecha forces. There were after all only a little over 200 Valkyries stationed on board the Macross which were required to contend with hundreds and even on occassion, thousands of Regult Battle Pods. Indeed I admit there were lots more Valkyries, Ghosts, and Destroids on Earth, but for the longest time it was just the Macross versus the Zentradi war machine.

However, I think after looking at the disparity between the capabilities of the UN Spacy VF-1 Valkyrie and the Zentradi Regult Battle Pod, I can see why the Valkyries kicked so much butt. There are a number of practical conventions the Valkyire excels at for which the Regult has little with which to answer.

The Regults were much larger targets than the Valkyries. The Valkyrie is 3.84 meters in height in Fighter mode while the Regult is nearly 8 meters in height with it's legs swept back for space flight. It was far easier for a Valkyrie to shoot down a big, round target like the Battle Pod than it was for the Battle Pod to shoot a small, flat profile target like the Valkyire in fighter mode. The forward profile of the Valkyrie was roughly one-third the size of the forward profile of a Regult. Basic combat statistics will tell you that given all other factors as equal, the Valkyrie is much more likely to shoot down a Regult first.

The standard Valkyrie possessed more weapons and more weapons diversity than the standard loadout for a Regult. A lowly VF-1A had one 55mm GU-11 Gunpod, one Anti-Aircraft laser cannon, and a bare minimum of twelve AMM-1 missiles. By way of comparison, the Regult had two Electron Beam guns and two Anti-Aircraft laser guns (it also featured two anti-personnel cannons; weapons which were useless against a Valkyrie). The Regult possessed no weapons of any kind for a long range role, relying totally upon direct fire, line-of-sight weaponry. In contrast, the Valkyrie possessed both direct fire, line-of-sight combat capability while also employing long range, tactical missiles. While the standard Regult had to close to visual range in order to initiate combat contact, the Valkyrie could engage Regults far outside visual range with its multi-purpose missiles. The opening sequence to the film Macross DYRL? brilliantly displayed this combat dynamic.

The Valkyries defensive armor and solid construction appeared to make them much more durable than a Regult. Even one shot from a GU-11 Gunpod was enough to blast a hole through a Regult battle pod. In many cases, Valkyries that weren't outright destroyed by a Regult weapon were observed surviving glancing shots, near explosions, and direct hits from Regult weapons. Valkyries could also sustain significant damage to their structure and continue operation. Valkyries suffered damage to central sections as a result of weapons fire and even lost large sections like their arms, yet still the VF-1 could maintain flight and even transform. The Regult was shown to be rendered inoperable by almost any kind of attack. In point of fact, some Valkyrie pilots in SW1 were able to disable Regults with just one well-placed shot from the VF-1 Anti-Aircraft laser.

The Valkyries enjoyed many more missile options than Regults and much more battlefield operational diversity. Both missile carrier versions of the Regult feature close-combat missiles only, again denying the Regult any long range combat option. The biggest compliment of missiles a Regult carries is twenty four missiles, exactly double the missile compliment of a standard VF-1. The Regult had no further versatility on the battlefield. The Valkyrie enjoyed numerous options for combined arms. The Valkyrie's wing hardpoints could feature the standard compliment of AMM-1 multipurpose missiles (12 missiles total), or Mk-82 bombs (12 bombs total), or UMM-1 Micro Missile Clusters (60 missiles total). Then the Valkyrie could also increase speed and range in space through the use of the FAST Pack system, which incidentally could add another fourty missiles to the Valkyries payload or the option of the double-action beam cannon with the Strike configuration. Finally, the Valkyrie could also be outfitted with disposable GBP-1 Armor system, adding increased range, armor, and fifty-six GH-32 missiles.

No doubt many are quick to point out that the Valkyries didn't have to contend with only Regults in Space War One. The Zentradi had Gnerl Fighter pods, Nousjadeul Ger power armor, the occasional Glaug Officer Pod, and even the Queadluun Rau Female Power Armor in the later stages of the war. However, the majority of the Zentradi mecha forces were made up of Regult Battle pods. With the exception of the Queadluun Rau, all the Zentradi mecha suffer from most of the traditional disadvantages of the Regult while failing to benefit from most advantages enjoyed by the Valkyrie. Compared to the Valkyries, most Zentradi mecha are larger targets, the mecha have fewer weapons, less weapons diversity, little long range weaponry, and are much less durable. Even the Gnerl fighter pod (the Zentradi equivalent of the VF-1 in fighter mode) featured but a single gun and only twelve missiles.

The Queadluun Rau appears to be the only Zentradi mecha with as many weapons and as much durability as a Valkyrie. It has shown itself to be more than a match for any Valkyrie in long or short range combat, it has the speed and manuverability to match the Valkyrie, and its durability has enabled it to survive long range hits from a Valkyrie's GU-11 Gunpod.

Given the superior capabilities of the Valkyrie and the number of combat advantages it features over the Zentradi Regult, I think it's clear why the UN Spacy was able to hold its own against the Zentradi mecha forces. Even away from the Macross and the potent Destroid forces, the Valkyries outmatched the majority of Zentradi mecha. Often times the Valkyries could eliminate sizeable forces of Zentradi mecha even before short range combat was initiated.

[Roy Focker]

If I remember correctly it was the Macross and maybe 1 millions under Vrlitwhai 'scommand vs 5 millon of Boldolzaa's ships. The odds were 5 to 1.

[Lightning]

i think he meant without Vrlitwhai and his ships in the earlier stages of the war

[Mr March]

If I remember correctly it was the Macross and maybe 1 millions under Vrlitwhai 'scommand vs 5 millon of Boldolzaa's ships. The odds were 5 to 1.

Vrlitwhai's forces (the Adaclos Fleet) numbered only 1,200 capital ships and the accompaning mecha. Against the 4,790,122 capital ships of the Bodol Main Fleet, the UN Spacy and it's allies were outnumbered by 4,000 to 1. They survived because of the Grand Cannon, the Macross destroying Bodolzaa's flagship, and the culture shock upon the Zentradi soldiers due to Minmay's music broadcast.

But I digress, Lightning 06 is correct in that I was talking primarily about the majority of Space War One, fought from episode one through to episode 26.

[Raptor]

If I remember correctly it was the Macross and maybe 1 millions under Vrlitwhai 'scommand vs 5 millon of Boldolzaa's ships.  The odds were 5 to 1.

Vrlitwhai's forces (the Adaclos Fleet) numbered only 1,200 capital ships and the accompaning mecha. Against the 4,790,122 capital ships of the Bodol Main Fleet, the UN Spacy and it's allies were outnumbered by 4,000 to 1. They survived because of the Grand Cannon, the Macross destroying Bodolzaa's flagship, and the culture shock upon the Zentradi soldiers due to Minmay's music broadcast.

But I digress, Lightning 06 is correct in that I was talking primarily about the majority of Space War One, fought from episode one through to episode 26.

Ah, good old culture shock... If Minmay's song did all that, I wonder what would happen if the Zentreadi fleet landed in Japan?

Zentreadi Soldier 1: "Ahh, this land makes no sense! Damn toilets! Damn schoolgirls everywhere!!!" *Head explodes*

Zentreadi Soldier 2: "Damn all these condtradictions, overly-complicated polite speech patterns, and arbitrary customs!" *head explodes*

Bodolza: "PROTOCULTURE!!! I mean CULTURE SHOCK!!!!" *head explodes*

[VF-1S Alpha]

Gee the way we glorify the VF-1, it seems then we will never see a 1/60 or even dream of a 1/48 Zentraedi Battlepod!

I guess it's a matter of quality(VF-1's) over quantity(Zentraedi)!

Paulo

[justvinnie]

If I remember correctly it was the Macross and maybe 1 millions under Vrlitwhai 'scommand vs 5 millon of Boldolzaa's ships. The odds were 5 to 1.

A mod has been tainted by the darkness that is Robotech. Let us tar and feather him!

vinnie

[Lightning]

tar? let's use flour and water and then add the feathers! no need to accidently kill em!

[ewilen]

Mr. March makes numerous good points. Some other possible tactical advantages enjoyed by the Valkyries have also been mentioned in the Zentradi genetics thread. In particular, the Zentradi often were under orders which limited their options in battle. I.e., the Regults were supposed to be trying to capture the SDF-1, not tangle with enemy fighters, so it was a turkey shoot for the Valkyries.

[Smiley424]

Yeah, I agree with what ewilen is saying about how the Zentradi's goal of capturing the Macross played more of a factor in keeping the ship alive than the VF-1s superiority to the Glaugs. I do agree with your reasoning on how the VF-1 was superior to the Standard Glaugs, but when it gets to the overwhelming numeric superiority that the Zentradi had over the Macross, no matter how much better the Valks were to the Glaugs, eventually they would have been overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

[imode]

Well their orders to capture the SDF-1 say nothing about leaving the defense fighters alive. In fact, if they laid waste to all the VF-1's the Zentradi would have a much easier time capturing the SDF-1. I think it was the superiority of the fighters (remember Reactive (nuclear) Weaponry), and the fact that the Zentradi underestimated the actual amount of resistance they would receive from the Microns, and thus never really tried to apply overwhelming force until it was too late.

[Arrowyn]

the Zentradi underestimated the actual amount of resistance they would receive from the Microns, and thus never really tried to apply overwhelming force until it was too late.

Ha-hah! That's right. Culture shock gave them head explodie!

...suckers!!

ps- good lecture, Mr March.

Edited September 8, 2003 by Arrowyn

[Batou]

Well their orders to capture the SDF-1 say nothing about leaving the defense fighters alive.  In fact, if they laid waste to all the VF-1's the Zentradi would have a much easier time capturing the SDF-1.  I think it was the superiority of the fighters (remember Reactive (nuclear) Weaponry), and the fact that the Zentradi underestimated the actual amount of resistance they would receive from the Microns, and thus never really tried to apply overwhelming force until it was too late.

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

The Zentrans could have easily blown the Macross to atoms if they had the mind to - remember in DYRL when that Meltrandi gunship was descending on the raised alien island, it shot it's main gun and blew the two booms off the top of the SDF-1 pretty easily. Had that hit been a little lower, it would have taken out the bridge and with it the rest of the ship. Now you can go on about the pinpoint barrier system, and the omnidirectional shield (can't remember what that was called off the top of my head), but all of that wouldn't hold up for very long if the Zentradis took off the kid gloves.

The problem was that the Zentran were under strict orders to capture the ship intact, and this isn't exactly their specialty - conquest through overwhelming numbers was. I agree that the valks vastly outclassed the bulk of the Zentradi fighters - mostly Regults - especially toward the end of the war, when the FAST packs and all that extra available armanent was at their disposal. You have to remember, though, that

1.) As someone said above, there were only about 200 valks stationed on the Macross, vs heaven only knows how many battlepods

2.) The Zentradi were especially more accustomed to fighting in deep space, whereas this was completely new to the UN Spacy pilots. Flying a fighter in space has to be tough enough even for experienced pilots (no drag from atmosphere, nothing to slow you down, all that inertia that doesn't bleed off on turns, etc, which all means you pretty much have to un-learn all of your fighter-pilot instincts as they will now get you killed in Zero-G), much less having to juggle two different flight modes (Gerwalk, Battroid). I'm assuming they had some pretty effective flight simulators for training the newbs, but nothing compares to the real thing. Which brings me to ...

3.) There wasn't exactly a plethora of experienced combat pilots on the Macross since most of the real pros were killed during the Unification wars. Sure there was Roy, but aces like him were few and far between, and seeing how they were actively recruiting pilots from within the civillian population onboard, it doesn't speak really well for the availability of trained military pilots who knew how to use all of that sophisticated weaponry effectively.

Edited September 8, 2003 by Batou

[ewilen]

Well, once the omni-directional barrier comes on line, it's not clear what it would take to destroy the Macross. When the barrier overloads, does it go down for a time? That would provide an opening, I suppose.

(Note: only shown in TV series; IIRC not even the pinpoint barrier is shown in DYRL.)

Back to a direct comparison of the aircraft/pods, just as the Valk pilots would have had to adapt to space combat, the Valks probably enjoyed an advantage when fighting inside the atmosphere since they were streamlined, had wings for lift, and used control surfaces instead of depending entirely on thrusters and vectoring the main engines for maneuvering. The only Zentradi fighter with any of these characteristics was the Gnerl.

Finally, as awesome as the Q-Rau may be, its swarms of missiles are only for close combat. In deep space, or even at range in an atmosphere, it would suffer from the same lack of punching distance as the other Zentradi mecha.

[Batou]

Back to a direct comparison of the aircraft/pods, just as the Valk pilots would have had to adapt to space combat, the Valks probably enjoyed an advantage when fighting inside the atmosphere since they were streamlined, had wings for lift, and used control surfaces instead of depending entirely on thrusters and vectoring the main engines for maneuvering.

I think that was definitely mentioned in the TV series - I remember during the first sortie after the fold, Roy remarked how much harder the enemy pods were to kill than when they had first fought them over S Ataria (or something to that effect).

I'm pretty sure that the valks definitely had the advantage in atmosphere, because of the stuff you mentioned, but also because that's where the pilots had learned to fly. Flying in space would be totally different because you don't have to worry about lifting surfaces and aerodynamics - pointing your nose downwards doesn't help you pick up speed and rolling into a banking turn won't bleed off momentum due to drag. Essentially, you don't just have to re-learn how to fly, but you have to unlearn unconscious habits you pick up from flying in atmosphere, and you have to fight off your natural instincts under combat conditions. Messy.

In deep space, or even at range in an atmosphere, it would suffer from the same lack of punching distance as the other Zentradi mecha.er with any of these characteristics was the Gnerl.

The only long range "punch" the Zentradi had were on their capital ships, and maybe on some of the modified missle Regult pods. From what I recall, they weren't too terribly effective.

UN Spacy, however, had nukes (or "reaction weapons", whatever is PC) they could carry on strike craft far out of the range of Macross' main guns. Quite a first line of defense, but even those weren't enough to take 'em all out.

Bare in mind that I'm talking about DYRL tactics here - I know in the TV series reaction weapons were only used in the first episode, and during the final fight with Bodolza. In DYRL, though, I remember Skull squadron launched the UMM-7's from long range first, and then mopped of the survivors once they were in range of their standard armanents.

[Agent ONE]

As we are ONLY talking about technical superiority (meaning Minmay isn't in the equation) the UNS had a huge advantage over the army of the Zjentohlauedy... The UNS was throwin' nukes all over the place! Even the VFs were launching nukes (UMM).

Something that they stoped doing after SW1.

[Mr March]

Mr. March makes numerous good points. Some other possible tactical advantages enjoyed by the Valkyries have also been mentioned in the Zentradi genetics thread. In particular, the Zentradi often were under orders which limited their options in battle. I.e., the Regults were supposed to be trying to capture the SDF-1, not tangle with enemy fighters, so it was a turkey shoot for the Valkyries.

The Zentradi order to capture the SDF-1 makes little sense for the ineffectiveness of the Regults against the Valkyries in deep space. A good majority of attacks upon UN SPacy forces took place outside of anti-mecha weapon range for the Macross. In these instances, it was to the advantage of the Zentradi mecha forces to wipe out the Valkyrie fighter squadrons, thereby ensuring easy capture of the Macross. The Macross was the only capture priority for the majority of SW1, not the Valkyries.

[Skull Leader]

Also, unless I am mistaken, most Zentraedi mecha had but the most basic radar, weapons aquisition, and tracking capabilities (probably point and shoot... MAYBE slightly more advanced, but not much).... meaning that once a valkyrie was out of their line of sight, I bet they were more or less forced to rely on their comerades to get what they don't. It seems to me that it took a far BETTER Zentran pilot to stay alive against the UN spacy than a UN pilot against the Zentraedi. They were dealing with extremely inadequate hardware. Also, they probably hadn't encountered the type of precision warfare that the UN was bringing to them before... not to mention the UN (capital ships and fighters alike) tossing nukes like they were going out of style..

In my opinion? If it had just been Breetai's fleet against the Macross with it's Mecha Support, Kamujin (Khyron) or no, I don't think the Zentraedi even stood a chance....I mean, do YOU honestly think you would stand a chance piloting a Glaug Combat pod vs. your average VF-1A? Arrogance might say yes, but prudence would say "you win".

The only thing that might've pitched the battle in the Zentraedi favor was the length of the fight... the longer things drew on, the better the odds became for the zentran (who seemed to rely more heavilly on beam weaponry, as opposed to ballistic ordinance)... The combat effectiveness of a battlepod probably doesn't deteriorate much over time (that's granting NO damage occurs) while a Valkyrie will eventually be reduced to head-laser(s) and hand-to-hand combat. Not to mention loss of maneuvering fuel might reduce the nimbleness of a VF-1. There's probably a mathematical formula for it somewhere, but I wouldn't know.

[Lightning]

...not to mention the UN (capital ships and fighters alike) tossing nukes like they were going out of style..

then again, back then, Nukes were going out of style!!

[ewilen]

I agree that if I were the Zentradi commander (or commander of a Regult assault force) and my objective was to capture the SDF-1, I'd first try to wipe out/attrite the Valkyries and other defending craft. However, I'm not sure that's what we see in the animation. Or at least, as you write, the Regults appear to be ill-equipped both for long-range space combat and for dogfighting; they seem more suited to boarding operations and land assault. The Zentradi should have assigned Gnerls or powered armor (N-Ger or Q-Rau) as escorts, but I don't think we saw them.

[Mr March]

*snip*

2.) The Zentradi were especially more accustomed to fighting in deep space, whereas this was completely new to the UN Spacy pilots. Flying a fighter in space has to be tough enough even for experienced pilots (no drag from atmosphere, nothing to slow you down, all that inertia that doesn't bleed off on turns, etc, which all means you pretty much have to un-learn all of your fighter-pilot instincts as they will now get you killed in Zero-G), much less having to juggle two different flight modes (Gerwalk, Battroid). I'm assuming they had some pretty effective flight simulators for training the newbs, but nothing compares to the real thing. Which brings me to ...

3.) There wasn't exactly a plethora of experienced combat pilots on the Macross since most of the real pros were killed during the Unification wars. Sure there was Roy, but aces like him were few and far between, and seeing how they were actively recruiting pilots from within the civillian population onboard, it doesn't speak really well for the availability of trained military pilots who knew how to use all of that sophisticated weaponry effectively.

I find the idea that the UN Spacy pilots were totally new to space travel in Valkyries impossible. The UN Spacy had established a permanent military presence within the Sol system for years before Space War One (there was Apollo Base on Luna and the Base on Mars). It would be absolutely essential for pilots to be trained space farers to travel between planets and conduct patrol, reconniasance, or combat sorties in a vacuum. There were also conflicts in space between the UN Spacy and Anti-UN forces (the battle between the Anti-UN hijacked destroyer Tsiolkovsky and the UN Spacy destroyer Goddard). Obviously, space tests for the VF-X1 fighter and the VF-1 mass production fighters would be necessary. All the ARMD Carriers conducted missions using Lancer II fighters, all manned by pilots capable of flying in space. We also saw CF Valkyries inside the orbiting ARMDs which would require pilots to be trained in space flight.

I'm certain all the Valkyrie pilots in SW1 had plenty of flight time in space before the outbreak of war with the Zentradi.

[ewilen]

I mean, do YOU honestly think you would stand a chance piloting a Glaug Combat pod vs. your average VF-1A?

A Glaug, maybe, but I'd have trouble reaching the levers.

Even if I was macronized, I don't think I'd win with a standard-issue Regult.

[Mr March]

As we are ONLY talking about technical superiority (meaning Minmay isn't in the equation) the UNS had a huge advantage over the army of the Zjentohlauedy... The UNS was throwin' nukes all over the place! Even the VFs were launching nukes (UMM).

Something that they stoped doing after SW1.

This is very true. The Reaction warheads were used very liberally by the UN Spacy in the final stages of the war. However, I must point out that aside from the ARMD counterstrike in the first episode and the final battle in episode 27, the majority of Regult vs. Valkyrie battles were fought without reaction weaponry. Again, I'm discussing primarily the vast majority of conflicts fought in SW1, not the few strategic conflicts.

[Mr March]

The only thing that might've pitched the battle in the Zentraedi favor was the length of the fight... the longer things drew on, the better the odds became for the zentran (who seemed to rely more heavilly on beam weaponry, as opposed to ballistic ordinance)... The combat effectiveness of a battlepod probably doesn't deteriorate much over time (that's granting NO damage occurs) while a Valkyrie will eventually be reduced to head-laser(s) and hand-to-hand combat. Not to mention loss of maneuvering fuel might reduce the nimbleness of a VF-1. There's probably a mathematical formula for it somewhere, but I wouldn't know.

I'm sure the Zentradi mecha did not have limitless fuel capacity.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

I'm certain all the Valkyrie pilots in SW1 had plenty of flight time in space before the outbreak of war with the Zentradi.

at least in the beginning, and then i would think attrition would start to take its toll, but i would think some would have to be held back as instructors. lets face it, when the war begins, how many trained Space pilots bought it in those Brown valks? and how many were assigned to places other than the Macross and South Ataria?

[Mr March]

I'm certain all the Valkyrie pilots in SW1 had plenty of flight time in space before the outbreak of war with the Zentradi.

at least in the beginning, and then i would think attrition would start to take its toll, but i would think some would have to be held back as instructors. lets face it, when the war begins, how many trained Space pilots bought it in those Brown valks? and how many were assigned to places other than the Macross and South Ataria?

I beleive there are typically always more pilots in the military than there are actual military vehicles to fly. Flight rotation, enlisted/reserve requirements and other considerations require more pilots and trained flight personnel than vehicles.

[Batou]

The UN Spacy had established a permanent military presence within the Sol system for years before Space War One (there was Apollo Base on Luna and the Base on Mars).  It would be absolutely essential for pilots to be trained space farers to travel between planets and conduct patrol, reconniasance, or combat sorties in a vacuum.  There were also conflicts in space between the UN Spacy and Anti-UN forces (the battle between the Anti-UN hijacked destroyer Tsiolkovsky and the UN Spacy destroyer Goddard).  Obviously, space tests for the VF-X1 fighter and the VF-1 mass production fighters would be necessary.  All the ARMD Carriers conducted missions using Lancer II fighters, all manned by pilots capable of flying in space.  We also saw CF Valkyries inside the orbiting ARMDs which would require pilots to be trained in space flight.

I remember reading about that Tsiolkovsky incident, and Global's role in it. That doesn't prove anything conclusively, though - where was it ever mentioned strike craft were involved in that fight? Or even if they were, that it was an effective first test of space combat by UN Spacy pilots? I would imagine if there were two seperate fighter forces involved, neither really knew what they were doing. Kind of like two virgins fooling around. All the compendium says is it was the first successful combat test of reaction weaponry in space.

I don't deny that there were VF-1's aboard the ARMD's - they were built with space flight in mind. I'm just saying that it would take a while to 'unlearn' habits picked up from flying in an atmosphere. Simulator and training time are one thing - flying combat sorties is entirely different.

I'm certain all the Valkyrie pilots in SW1 had plenty of flight time in space before the outbreak of war with the Zentradi.

And I'm certain that most of those experienced pilots were killed early on in the war, and replaced with fresh new cannon fodder in their brownies. Even these "experienced" guys were greenhorns compared to Roy and the very few remaining aces left over from the Unification wars.

Also, Isamu Atreides mentioned a very good point - UN Spacy was losing pilots left and right, and they didn't exactly have an excess of experienced combat pilots to begin with. They were actively recruiting ANYONE with flight experience once they were cut off from Earth, and I can't imagine many of the kids they recruited had logged any time in space. How do you think Hikaru, Max, Kakizaki, et al wound up in the pilot seat of the most expensive and sophisticated fighter ever created at the time? Look at Max - someone with his eyesight (meaning less than perfect 20/20) wouldn't even be allowed into the cockpit of an F-14. Certainly not within the 6 months it took them to get home - modern fighter pilots spend a VERY long time in flight school before they're even considered for combat duty.

I don't doubt that some of the fighter pilots had spent some time in lower orbit doing practice maneuvers. I don't, however, think that just because you've spent some flight hours in space and in a Zero-G simulator will give you your "space legs" (for lack of a better phrase ). While the valk pilots may have been able to cope - especially in light of their vastly superior weaponry, they still weren't as used to space combat as the Zentrans who had lived their entire lives in space, and had been training in Zero G since they popped out of the cloning machine.

Edited September 9, 2003 by Batou

[Morpheus]

As far I can see in the series, the valks were faced with overwhelming regults, but I think valks pilot are better trained than the Zentrans (They are engineered for combat, in other words expendable).

SDF-1 and the valks only starting to giving away nukes during the end of SW1, maybe after they returned to Earth where the got fresh supplies (food and nukes ). However when the SDF-1 are returning from Pluto, its greatly relies on her main guns for attack and defense (I didn't see any valks triumphs over Zentrans capship, while the SDF-1 manage to wipe out a small flotila in single strike ). The valks surely did a great job dealing with the enemy battlepods, except for Miriya Quadluun Rau

Few thing that I concluded from SW1 is :

- Culture shock works best against hostile alien, thus Basara are born

- Valks proves its superiority against other mecha, including destroid

- Wanna take out a large enemy fleet ? Try transformation

- Beer and alcohol has no effect on aces

Sue me if I'm wrong

[Batou]

- Beer and alcohol has no effect on aces

Sue me if I'm wrong

How can you fight a war if you can’t handle a little booze?

[Mr March]

Batou I'm not really sure now what it is you're trying to suggest. Originally you suggested the UN SPacy pilots were complete newbies without any sort of space flight ability at all. Now you seem to be suggesting the Valkyrie pilots may have had some space experience but they were totally inadequate against the ability of the Zentradi pilots in space.

Either way, both explanations make no sense. The degree of superiority in the Valkyrie fighter is not significant enough to allow totally inexperienced pilots to defeat the Zentradi warriors in Regult mecha. My analysis shows tactical advantages of the Valkyrie over the Regult and several combat conventions favour the Valkyrie over that of the Regult. It does not show superiority to the degree of total battlefield domination. Nor does the anime show the UN Spacy Valkyrie forces being totally wiped out in either space or atmosphere by the Zentradi Regult forces. In fact, it was only once stated that the Zentradi were noticably better in space than planet bound, but nothing that would suggest the Valkyrie forces were outmatched in any way.

The UN Spacy was operating manned Lancer II space fighters and Valkyries all stationed in space. It's ludicrous to suggest these craft had no pilots or those pilots operating them had little to no experience in space. ANY kind of military operations in space would require the UN Spacy to have qualified personnel piloting shuttles, operating space-operable construction equipment, patrolling UN SPacy supply lanes, escourting UN Spacy military assets...the list goes on.

You simply cannot run an air force without pilots capable of flying planes. THe UN Spacy cannot run a space force without pilots capable of flying in space.

The only thing one could argue is a lack of space combat experience, but certainly not any total abscence of it. Historical records of Space War One don't mention specific battles of Valkyries fighting this and Valkyries fighting that...but they did. Arguing semantics isn't enough to overraide the facts of operating a military in space.

On the final point, the newer pilots like Kakizaki, Max, and Hikaru were trained during war time. When war breaks out of course there isn't the luxury of training pilots for years and years. Use some common sense. However, even during the war it was clearly shown in the series that Hikaru was given training in space...while piloting a Valkyrie.

Edited September 9, 2003 by Mr March

[Macross_Fanboy]

Has anyone given any thought that the Valkyrie pilots actually had something to go back to? You know, a girlfriend or wife or if they're female, boyfriend or husband, a pet, friends, etc. Things that are worth fighting for and if you ask me, I'd fight harder than any genetically altered giant to come back to the things that are good in life. You're no better than a Zentran if you've got nothing to go back to, so you might as well be staring down the barrels of a GU-11. Am I right here? Because I think I am.

[CAG]

One point about the greenhorns:

Since many of them were civillians, might they have adapted quicker to spaceflight because they didn't have to unlearn all the now-lethal habits of flying in atmosphere (with the obvious exception of Hikaru)?

Also, how experienced were the majority of the Zentradi? How much campaigning do they get out a typical regult-piloting grunt?

[Isamu Atreides 86]

Has anyone given any thought that the Valkyrie pilots actually had something to go back to? You know, a girlfriend or wife or if they're female, boyfriend or husband, a pet, friends, etc. Things that are worth fighting for and if you ask me, I'd fight harder than any genetically altered giant to come back to the things that are good in life. You're no better than a Zentran if you've got nothing to go back to, so you might as well be staring down the barrels of a GU-11. Am I right here? Because I think I am.

i think thats probably what kept them from getting wiped out. just look at how poorly trained Russian conscripts did during WWII. they beat back a superior force. the only difference here, is the macross had smaller numbers......but look what the Israelis did with smaller forces in 67 and 73.

[bake_art]

Two words. Maximillian Jenius.

Micronians had him and the zentradis didn't

[ewilen]

Also, unless I am mistaken, most Zentraedi mecha had but the most basic radar, weapons aquisition, and tracking capabilities (probably point and shoot... MAYBE slightly more advanced, but not much).... meaning that once a valkyrie was out of their line of sight, I bet they were more or less forced to rely on their comerades to get what they don't.

Hm. I'll have to take notes when I watch the DVD's. I remember one scene early in the series (probably episode 2) where you get to see things from the perspective of a Regult pilot in the midst of battle. (He bites it after a Valk in Gerwalk dodges around a city block and catches him off-guard.) We might also get some clues from scenes with Quamzin in his Glaug and Millia in her Q-Rau.