For SALE Section needs some Rules!

[Kamineko]

The For Sale section has really taken a turn for the worst over the last couple of weeks. I understand that a lot of drama has occurred over fraudulent sales and people getting ripped off, but I have witnessed several threads where people post totally irrelevant information or reply in such a way as to sabotage sales.

Example 1

Example 2

I would like to suggest a set of rules that need to be pinned, similar to the ones from the old forum. Maybe a pop-up window when you enter the For Sale forum. Perhaps a list of rules, disclaimers of responsibility, and maybe a link to the pinned subjects could pop up for new users.

The lack of rules is really not making it a happy place ...

[Skull Leader]

kinda missed the boat on this one. We already have posting rules and with a few posts that get special attention (with every set of rules, exceptions have to exist). Give this a chance to blow over and you won't see it again for a while.

[Kamineko]

I'm not complaining about the current drama thats occurring in that section. What I am trying to get people to notice is the lack of decorum regarding replys to For Sale postings. Questioning someone for details of the sale should be appropriate, but what i find totally distasteful are blatant accusations of ripping people off, or gouging them on shipping...

People should be replying to Sales posts if they intend to buy, not to crap on someone elses sale.

[Mechamaniac]

I agree, in example number 2, people just started bum rushing that guy for no reason other than he was unlucky enough to post shortly after the Mechafreak debacle.

[nemesis120]

I'd definitely say the second one got out of hand. But, in all honesty, I'd say all this got a little out of hand. People are saying how posting in other forums (here on MW) is a sign someone isn't here to scam people and how doing trades and selling with others is a sign they aren't here to scam people (pretty hard to trade if nobody is willing to trade or buy from you). And last time I checked, this guy obviously scammed other people and was smart about it (empty boxes, tracking numbers). But I've had people accuse me of scamming them and that kind of crap (on ebay) and that definitely shouldn't be tolerated, and people having a hissy fit about shipping is just crap, as it is part of what you spend on the item.

[Anubis]

After the mechafreak debacle there is a hint of the inquisition going on in the sale forum.

[Neova]

You guys need to read through that second thread. When probed by prospective buyers for information, the seller was deferring the questions back to them. This does not build a confident buyer-seller relationship. Only when folks started to push for information, did he relent and confirm his statements.

You're all right in that rules and etiquette needs to be established but lets just have this blow over first. If you guys also didn't notice, we just got quite a few new sellers with low post counts selling stuff in the wake of mechafreak's scam. Don't blame them for being cautious.

The first thread is in the wrong forum but there is no buyer / seller discussion forum, since it belongs neither in the blacklist or straightshooters thread (yet). I had already commented about that trolling when eyesonme78's first thread was hijacked by those guys but they may only have meant well for our sakes.

[Anubis]

You guys need to read through that second thread. When probed by prospective buyers for information, the seller was deferring the questions back to them. This does not build a confident buyer-seller relationship. Only when folks started to push for information, did he relent and confirm his statements.

You're all right in that rules and etiquette needs to be established but lets just have this blow over first. If you guys also didn't notice, we just got quite a few new sellers with low post counts selling stuff in the wake of mechafreak's scam. Don't blame them for being cautious.

The first thread is in the wrong forum but there is no buyer / seller discussion forum, since it belongs neither in the blacklist or straightshooters thread (yet). I had already commented about that trolling when eyesonme78's first thread was hijacked by those guys but they may only have meant well for our sakes.

All well said.

[EXO]

I think that the For Sale Section already has it's rules set out. If the site admins and mods regulate it anymore then it might show some liability on their part. The Sale and Trade sections has always been a privilige not a requirement for this site. People just need to step back and realize it. Hopefully the needless inquisitions will blow over, but I hope members will take a stand to ask questions that need to be asked from certain sellers and we were just too polite to put them on the spot.

Personally I didn't see it coming from he Mechafreak thread, but I did bring it up politely in 2 previous threads prior to the whole debacle last week.

Example 1

Example 2

First time sellers have to be put on the spot. Though I think in hindsight I feel I was too polite in those examples. We just need not to learn not be so rude.

But I think the rules as stated should do.

[Kamineko]

But I think the rules as stated should do.

I also think that the stated rules should be good enough. Its just that those rules need to be a bit more obvious. Old-timers all know the basic rules to the For Sale section. What about the newcomers? If the rules are not visible, then are the newcomers just to assume what they are?

Judging by the postings that have been going up, a lot of newbies are taken in by the camaraderie and given a false sense of safety. This just drops their guard and they assume that everyone is a "good guy" and they throw common sense to the winds . . .

I am not saying rules should be put into place (they are already there). They just need to have a higher profile. Maybe some kind of nag that tells them they need to be cautious, that they assume their own responsibility for their conduct, and perhaps a statement that absolves this web site from any liability for the transactions that take place there (aka, you are on your own!). Like the rules in the old forum, and in the older forum/BBS board.

[do not disturb]

couldn't agree with you more Kamineko.

what really gets me is, when someone has absolute no interest in the item at all but decides to post his/her thoughts on the sale.

it would be one thing if the person was actually interested, its another if they're just railroading someones FS thread and then call it "helpful advice". don't get get me wrong, i've done this in the past as well, only to have it done back to me, so i learned my lesson.

i understand that sometimes FS threads do get off topic with witty banter we tend to exchange with one another but its all the other posting thats got my panties in a bunch.

i definitely think there should be some guidelines and rules when it comes to posting there....and oddly enough, Kamineko was kind enough to PM with questions he had regarding my recent sale, following the "golden rule" which was much appreciated.

i was more than happy to clear up any confusion but its much easier when people don't make public accusations on why they think they're being jacked or why they feel the description is questionable....again something i've done in the past to others but something i'm trying not to do in the future.

anyhow, i think some new rules and guidelines are needed cause at this point, its a free for all in the FS section when it comes to posting.

[TheLoneWolf]

As a guy who's been here since the beginning, I can say that the recent drama and flare ups are merely situational. Inevitably, there are going to be noisy times, but unless they last for months on end, there's nothing to be concerned about. No amount of new rules are going to prevent scams, hecklers, and all-around 'cattiness.' The only effective deterrent is swift action by the mods.

[Kamineko]

Not asking for new rules. Asking for visible splash page, or popup, or whatever that will state what the expected conduct is suppose to be in the For Sale section. A long, long (very long) time ago there was a "pinned" message that stated such.

[ChristopherB]

Obviously, the first line of defense against such actions is ourselves. We need to be adults, and use a little common sense. If you just use a little intuition and logic, the rules become self explanatory. If we were to do a better job of policing ourselves, the moderators would have a lot less work to do.

In addition, it's easy to subscribe the off topic posts in the "For Sale" thread to the recent fiasco; however, it occured prior to, and it will continue long after "Mechafreak" is forgotten about unless we moderate ourselves, so let's not presume that it is merely situational. It has of course flared up, but it has always been there.

Just my two cents, that may not make a lot of sense, but since I already posted it, I hope does not appear too sensational.

Edited June 18, 2004 by ChristopherB

[do not disturb]

We need to be adults, and use a little common sense. If you just use a little intuition and logic, the rules become self explanatory.

you'd be amazed how hard it is for people to be adults, to use logic and show respect to their fellow man.

i was just conducting a sale for a 1J when all of the sudden someone comes in and posts, well your deal sucks. not those exact words but pretty much coming to my sale, taking a crap at the front door and not to mentio taking food out of my stomach.

simply put, its not cool if i showed up at your business and started saying how theres a better deal somewhere else, you're getting ripped, oh thats so unfair, etc etc etc. its completely f-ed up so why do it to someone else?

i try my best to live by the golden rule, not to say i'm prefect but i do try. and i hope other people will show the same respect that they'd like to receive in return and be logically when giving so-called helpful advice.

basically, if you think something you post might piss someone off, it probably will....thats why we have the PM.

[Angel's Fury]

We need to be adults, and use a little common sense.  If you just use a little intuition and logic, the rules become self explanatory.

you'd be amazed how hard it is for people to be adults, to use logic and show respect to their fellow man.

i was just conducting a sale for a 1J when all of the sudden someone comes in and posts, well your deal sucks. not those exact words but pretty much coming to my sale, taking a crap at the front door and not to mentio taking food out of my stomach.

simply put, its not cool if i showed up at your business and started saying how theres a better deal somewhere else, you're getting ripped, oh thats so unfair, etc etc etc. its completely f-ed up so why do it to someone else?

i try my best to live by the golden rule, not to say i'm prefect but i do try. and i hope other people will show the same respect that they'd like to receive in return and be logically when giving so-called helpful advice.

basically, if you think something you post might piss someone off, it probably will....thats why we have the PM.

Whoever posted on your thread was stupid!!! If he didn't like the prices, then don't post, order, whatever & ignore the thread, simple as that.

[Blaine23]

you'd be amazed how hard it is for people to be adults, to use logic and show respect to their fellow man.

*snip*

basically, if you think something you post might piss someone off, it probably will....thats why we have the PM.

I'M CALLING YOU OUT!!

I'm really sorry... but aren't you the same Haterist that calls people out and schedules his vacation time at work to travel across the country and whoop ass?

Oh, and not in PM, either.

My point being, if you run around and piss people off in various threads across the board, I wouldn't be too stunned or indignant when it happens to your own Sale thread. Just my advice, take it or leave it.

Edited June 21, 2004 by Blaine23

[do not disturb]

blaine23,

first off, please read the entire thread then make your little accusations. peoples inability and/or unwillness to read is why we have so many problems here....

it would be one thing if the person was actually interested, its another if they're just railroading someones FS thread and then call it "helpful advice".  don't get get me wrong, i've done this in the past as well, only to have it done back to me, so i learned my lesson. 

i was more than happy to clear up any confusion but its much easier when people don't make public accusations on why they think they're being jacked or why they feel the description is questionable....again something i've done in the past to others but something i'm trying not to do in the future.

secondly, why is it that you and Hurin(sorry to bring him into this) just "troll" around the boards looking to start beef or push peoples buttons? you really had nothing helpful to add, and the only reason you're posting here is to irritate me.

normal person + anonymity + audience = total frakk wad.

[tom64ss]

secondly, why is it that you and Hurin(sorry to bring him into this) just "troll" around the boards looking to start beef or push peoples buttons?  you really had nothing helpful to add, and the only reason you're posting here is to irritate me. 

Because, you did it to people like me when you first joined, and yeah, we settled our problems, but a year later you're still having arguments w/ people on the boards, not via PM.

14 days ago, you posted this:

Well Hater, we might both finally get our LVs!

nah not really, i'm gonna pass on it too.

its pretty obvious this guys blatantly gouging everyone on shipping. i buy stuff from overseas all the time and shipping a 1/48 is $20-$25, yet this guys trying to charge us $50! i want one but not bad enough to accept this persons shipping fee. besides, if hes willing to lie about the shipping, what else is he willing to lie about.

thanks but no thanks dude. i'm sure you're a real nice guy but please ask the next sucker in line.

in this thread: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=8272

and although I agreed with you, 9 days later you had the balls to post stuff like:

its not polite to crap on other peoples threads. 

and 2 days later:

you'd be amazed how hard it is for people to be adults, to use logic and show respect to their fellow man.

Sure, I thought the shipping charges were kinda high too, but you both "crapped in his thread" and "showed no respect for your fellow man"

Like Blaine said, you probably pissed people off, and they, like me, don't think just because you say stuff like:

i've done this in the past as well, only to have it done back to me, so i learned my lesson. 

.....that we need to "automatically" believe you've changed your ways just because you said so.

*********************EDIT*****************************

Some people, are perfectly willing to see if you've really change your attitude so you can:

-Let your actions speak louder than your words and stop fighting with people on the boards. Especially in this case where it seems like your words and your desire to have the "last one" are what's causing all these problems in the first place.

-Or keep being the way you were before. I actually find it kind of funny most of the time now. It don't bother me too much anymore. It only bothers me when you both expect us to put up with it when you do it, and also put up with your whining when others do it to you.

Just pick one and go with it.....

Edited June 21, 2004 by tom64ss

[do not disturb]

tom64ss,

your advice(before you editted your post) would be easy to do if every other day someone didn't bring up old posts, flame wars, and everything else in the book on why i'm this and why i'm that.

this thread is a perfect example, all i did was reply to someone suggestions why the FS section needs some new rules. and instead of adding to the discussion, its turned into why haterist is such an a-hole and how i did this, and how i said that. why?

you say i should let my actions speak, well how can i? when i'm constantly under attack by someone here on the boards? in all differnt sections i might add, if ain't you, its hurin, or blaine23 or someone else whos got a "personal" problem with me that feels the need to make me look like the bad guy, so they can feel like the good guy. fine then, i'm the bad guy, everyone knows it, so whats the point of bring it up every other day? why not let me post in peace?

i'm sure theres going to be another reply with a bunch of quotes and reasons on why i'm such an a-hole but i guess it my own fault for constantly feeding the trolls.

well let the flaming commence....yet again....sigh.

[tom64ss]

tom64ss,

your advice(before you editted your post) would be easy to do if every other day someone didn't bring up old posts, flame wars, and everything else in the book on why i'm this and why i'm that.

this thread is a perfect example, all i did was reply to someone suggestions why the FS section needs some new rules. and instead of adding to the discussion, its turned into why haterist is such an a-hole and how i did this, and how i said that. why?

you say i should let my actions speak, well how can i? when i'm constantly under attack by someone here on the boards? in all differnt sections i might add, if ain't you, its hurin, or blaine23 or someone else whos got a "personal" problem with me that feels the need to make me look like the bad guy, so they can feel like the good guy. fine then, i'm the bad guy, everyone knows it, so whats the point of bring it up every other day? why not let me post in peace?

i'm sure theres going to be another reply with a bunch of quotes and reasons on why i'm such an a-hole but i guess it my own fault for constantly feeding the trolls.

well let the flaming commence....yet again....sigh.

No flame war intended and you do have a good point. Taken to PM.

[Blaine23]

blaine23,

first off, please read the entire thread then make your little accusations. peoples inability and/or unwillness to read is why we have so many problems here....

it would be one thing if the person was actually interested, its another if they're just railroading someones FS thread and then call it "helpful advice".  don't get get me wrong, i've done this in the past as well, only to have it done back to me, so i learned my lesson. 

i was more than happy to clear up any confusion but its much easier when people don't make public accusations on why they think they're being jacked or why they feel the description is questionable....again something i've done in the past to others but something i'm trying not to do in the future.

secondly, why is it that you and Hurin(sorry to bring him into this) just "troll" around the boards looking to start beef or push peoples buttons? you really had nothing helpful to add, and the only reason you're posting here is to irritate me.

normal person + anonymity + audience = total frakk wad.

Oh, I get it... you've changed your ways. In the last week. Since you were gonna go hop on a plane and do justice on June 14th. My bad.

I made a point to the thread regarding your plea for polite behavior in a For Sale thread. The point is simple - don't act like an ass in other threads, then complain about it happening in your thread. It comes off as hypocritical.

The same advice really goes for anyone here, myself included.

Also, I've got no beef with you and I'm not exactly known for being buds with your sparring buddy Hurin, either. If you think that I "troll" Macrossworld to pick on you, you're mistaken. I just put my opinion out there like anybody else.

I might tend to take you a bit more seriously if you didn't curse in every other post, too.

[TheLoneWolf]

In addition, it's easy to subscribe the off topic posts in the "For Sale" thread to the recent fiasco; however, it occured prior to, and it will continue long after "Mechafreak" is forgotten about unless we moderate ourselves, so let's not presume that it is merely situational. It has of course flared up, but it has always been there.

I have to disagree with you, the Mechafreak incident is situational. Approximately once every year there is a major scam (excluding the auctions, trade, wanted forums since we're not discussing those) in the For Sale section. It's not like people are getting scammed every week or even every month. However, I do agree that the drama has always been there. What else would you expect from a bunch of 30 year old male virgins living in mommy's basement.

simply put, its not cool if i showed up at your business and started saying how theres a better deal somewhere else, you're getting ripped, oh thats so unfair, etc etc etc. its completely f-ed up so why do it to someone else?

There's one major difference between a business and the For Sale section: Business owners pay money to set up shop.

None of us are paying a dime to peddle our wares here, if crap happens, oh well

Btw, Kamineko, I think a pop-up is a great idea. Just as long as it's three lines max and uses simple terms. Anything more and a newbie will close it and dive in head-first.

[Blaine23]

In addition, it's easy to subscribe the off topic posts in the "For Sale" thread to the recent fiasco; however, it occured prior to, and it will continue long after "Mechafreak" is forgotten about unless we moderate ourselves, so let's not presume that it is merely situational.  It has of course flared up, but it has always been there.

I have to disagree with you, the Mechafreak incident is situational. Approximately once every year there is a major scam (excluding the auctions, trade, wanted forums since we're not discussing those) in the For Sale section. It's not like people are getting scammed every week or even every month. However, I do agree that the drama has always been there. What else would you expect from a bunch of 30 year old male virgins living in mommy's basement.

simply put, its not cool if i showed up at your business and started saying how theres a better deal somewhere else, you're getting ripped, oh thats so unfair, etc etc etc. its completely f-ed up so why do it to someone else?

There's one major difference between a business and the For Sale section: Business owners pay money to set up shop.

None of us are paying a dime to peddle our wares here, if crap happens, oh well

Btw, Kamineko, I think a pop-up is a great idea. Just as long as it's three lines max and uses simple terms. Anything more and a newbie will close it and dive in head-first.

Eh, from a web design standpoint, a pop-up is most likely not going to be effective at all.

I know for a fact my browser has a popup blocker and prohibits goofy javascript as well.

To be truthful, I think the more we try to be "official" about how we do things in the For Sale area, the more likely it is some newbie will feel like it's MW's fault he got ripped off, should a bad deal occur.

I'd hate to see that happen. Macrossworld isn't a service like eBay for buyers and sellers to use to make dough, it's a board to hang out and discuss things with like minded fans.

The only real moderation that really should occur in the For Sale section is a continued warning that it's "buyer beware" and that people should be careful about who they send money to.

[JsARCLIGHT]

As some others have said before: assuming tight control over a sales area can be misconstrued as akin to assuming responsability for it. As Blaine said, people can see things that are not there if there is a lot of implied control over the for sale section. I know a few sites that have tight controls over the for sale sections and even they still get hit with the occasional rip-off. I think the best thing that could be done is to just print the two words Caveat Emptor as big as possible on the heading for the sections.

If anything this recent debacle with Mechadouche has taught us all that not only can and will people come on here and rip people off but they can and will apparently do it again and again. Let's all just remember the old saying of "Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me". In other words personal responsability needs to be taken for your own deals but it should not extend to burning witches at every stake. The whole issue of people constantly "fragging" people's sale threads is basically because the seller says something that someone feels they don't agree with and they feel the need to "let them have it"... funny, that is just what they do everywhere else on the board. I say, let ye without sin cast the first rock and I shall smoketh it.

[Mechamaniac]

I agree with Blaine and JSA. Caveat Emptor, and this is coming from someone who recently got cornholed by Mechafrakk.

Asking Shawn, Graham or any of our overworked Mods to police the For Sale section will ultimately only lead to it's being shut down completely.

Very few forums of this type have For Sale threads, and it is a fantastic thing that Shawn et al have provided for us, so IMHO we should all just be responsible, follow a few basic tenets, and keep it the way it is.

[ChristopherB]

Btw, Kamineko, I think a pop-up is a great idea.

TheLoneWolf,

You can disagree with me, but I think you missed or misunderstood what I was trying to say, which kinda makes it hard for you to not agree if you missed my point.

Yes, of course the recent problems in the thread have brought the issue to the forefront, and yes, we have had prior incidents, and unfortunately we will have them again in the future unless people are always vigilant. Perhaps you've done some research, but I'm not sure it happens once a year, but that is inconsequential.

What I was implying is that it's easy for us to subscribe the problems to the recent incident and then let our guard down after everything blows over. We need to always be careful at all times, as opposed to being hypervigilant shortly after something bad happens. There is always the potential for this to happen, so we should not let this become situational.

Now it's my turn. I disagree with you regarding a pop-up. Everyone, new or not should excercise common sense and not blindly enter into a deal. We already have the straight shooter and deadbeat lists, plus threads like this. If people are going to come here and get screwed over, then most likely they'll get screwed over elsewhere. No one is perfect, including me, but how far does Shawn have to go in an effort to protect people from a privilege and not a right. The sale, trade and wanted threads are an added perk, and creating a pop up seems like an a typical "liberal" solution to protect people from themselves. Caveat Emptor

Sincerely,

Christopher

Edited June 23, 2004 by ChristopherB

[bandit29]

here's another reason the for sale section needs rules...

he's trying sell. its turned into an ebay/ethics on bidding thread

Amped's low viz

[do not disturb]

here's another reason the for sale section needs rules...

he's trying sell. its turned into an ebay/ethics on bidding thread

Amped's low viz

hey i just figured out your name.

i don't think its a big deal cause Amped got a deal in the works during the first couple of hours of posting. all the other crap is just that, crap...it happens in just about every thread. i don't think he's(amped) mad about it...after all, he is getting $360 for a LV w/FPs.

[Amped]

No worries about my sale thread guys! The deal is pending.. if it doesn't pan out I'll just update the thread accordingly.

Having said that, however... lately it seems folks on MW do tend to kinda follow a winding 'stream of conciousness' when replying to threads. It'd probably help if everyone made more of an effort to stay on topic. Self-policing is still the best policy, with gentle moderator reminders helping to keep foks on track.

Also, I do agree with those folks who point out that you shouldn't be posting in a sale thread unless your interested in the item...or know for a fact that something stinky is going down!