YF-19/YF-21 Detailed Fighter Mode Pics

[Anubis]

Scanning pics to use for the M+ box I also got these very detailed pics out of the books.

Dimensions, Wing Sweep area, everything. Very good pics. I'm not sure if these have been posted here before, so here you go. They are negatived in the box thread, but here these are in their regular color.

I can also send these out bigger if anyone wants/needs them, my original scans are HUGE.

For the size limits here, I kept the pics 640 pixels wide.

Enjoy.

First the YF-19

[Anubis]

The YF-21

[bsu legato]

Heh...that plan view of the YF-21 sure blows away the notion that its wings were fixed, and that they only changed shape as a "metaphor." I don't remember who stated that, but it was a dumb idea.

[Syngyne]

Where does the rest of the YF-19's wing go when it sweeps? It looks like it would cut into the engine.

[Hurricane29]

They don't sweep per say, I believe they completely change their structure, internally and extrenally.

[Anubis]

Since they only show the 19's wings swept back once (to my knowledge) in M+, that's probably why the topic wasn't addressed very deeply. A swept back -19 is so rare. The YF-21 and VF-22 (in M7) are shown several times in high speed mode with the wings and tailfins folded.

I think the 19s wings are able to morph as well, similar to how the 21's wing morph where the wings change surface area and shape, but on the -19 the morphing capability only serves for high speed mode, altering the shape of the wings so they are able to sweep back at that angle, and not cut into the leg.

Looking at this lineart, the wings are perfectly flush, almost forming a triangle with the wing root section, also note the slope of the wing, and how far the wing extends back. The tips are even slightly past the engine. There's no way to achieve that stremlined a shape without some level of morph in the wing to reduce the surface area.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Anubis

[Anubis]

Now look at the shape of the folded wing in battroid. Note the shapes are different, and the wing isn't sticking nearly as long out of the root as it is with the high speed mode. The wings are simply folded here, with no morph applied.

As for the F/S model VF-19's, this could be another reason for the shortened wings. For space use, they don't need expensive morphing wings. They altered the shape of the now fixed surface area wing on those models, and added verniers to the wings to give it all the manuverability it would need there. It has been noted already that verniers were added when they modified the wing design of the space varients, as well as the removal of the forward canards substituted by verniers, and the addition of the vernier ring on the legs. All the wings need to do is fold when transforming and that's it.

Also, I'm sure they if they had a high speed mode on the F/S models during M7's trench run, Emerald force would have used it. Space use variants wouldn't have such an atmosphere specific item. The wings were the same as always, wheras the VF-22 was folded up fully when Max stormed in.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Anubis

[ArchVile]

The way I see it with the YF-19 and VF-19 Kai is that the wings are like the F-14's variable wings only it also changes it's attatchment point location.

[Anubis]

The way I see it with the YF-19 and VF-19 Kai is that the wings are like the F-14's variable wings only it also changes it's attatchment point location.

The thng is though, even if the wing roots separated out like it was transforming, the wings swept, and ther roots went back into place, the wings would still hit into the legs, of which there's no slots for a swept wing to fit into. Just pivoting the wings in place is impossible, because the wings would sweep halfway into the legs, and engines.

The Doyusha -19 had the wings sweep in place into the legs, and as a result, the wings don't look anything like they should, and you can see first hand how much they would cut into the leg doing it like that.

Therefore some level of wing morph has to apply there.

By change the attachment point, do you mean the wings slide outward from the jet while the root stays in place and then sweep back? Chould be, but then that would still require some wing morph to move the wing's shape to that pivot point, because there are no sliders on the wing other than the pivot point.

Edited June 11, 2004 by Anubis

[Nani?!]

The thng is though, even if the wing roots separated out like it was transforming, the wings swept, and ther roots went back into place, the wings would still hit into the legs, of which there's no slots for a swept wing to fit into.  Just pivoting the wings in place is impossible, because the wings would sweep halfway into the legs, and engines.

The Doyusha -19 had the wings sweep in place into the legs, and as a result, the wings don't look anything like they should, and you can see first hand how much they would cut into the leg doing it like that.

Therefore some level of wing morph has to apply there.

By change the attachment point, do you mean the wings slide outward from the jet while the root stays in place and then sweep back?  Chould be, but then that would still require some wing morph to move the wing's shape to that pivot point, because there are no sliders on the wing other than the pivot point.

hmmm...

interesting topic.

I'm sorry but I think I disagree with you anubis. I don't think there is any wing morphing involved. You guys didnt paste up the side view technical drawings of the 19, but the wings are placed high enough over the engine to simply pivot and fit in. I don't think there's any morphing involved at all. Also to be completely technical, the battroid and gerwalk line art are not accurate renditions of how a perfect tranformation would be... so using them to discuss this topic wouldn't be accurate. Rather I think using the hasegawa transforming YF 19 would be the best reference available other than asking kawamori himself.

Personally, I think the YF-19 is without any of the uber high tech features that are on the 21 (like the brainwave controlled flight, and morphing wings). The match up between the yf-19 and the 21 reminds me of the competition between the upcoming Lockheed F22 Raptor (then yf-22) and Northrop's YF 23 Black widow II. The YF 23 was actually superior to the 22 in many aspects but lost out in the end.

Anyway, I say it simply folds in on top of the engine but in a slit inside the back of the leg. REMEMBER: the line art isnt accurate. The best reference are the tech drawings and then the hasegawa model.

Edit: also I would like to add the fact that kawamori is NOT an aircraft engineer. Though his designs kick ass and look convincing and practical, he is not in anyway a lockheed martin or sukhoi engineer. Especially regarding the sweeping wing design of the yf19, I think he was just trying to solve the reliability issue swept forward winged planes have when in high speeds. The YF 19 is not a real world perfected design nor are ANY of the valks so we should keep that in mind. Kawamori-san please forgive me for being critical! your designs rule!

Edited June 11, 2004 by Nani?!

[lebhead]

hmm... well, i think that pic makes it pretty clear that the 21's wings DO morph, as shown in the animation. as far as i'm concerned, the debate is over.

[Nani?!]

hmm... well, i think that pic makes it pretty clear that the 21's wings DO morph, as shown in the animation. as far as i'm concerned, the debate is over.

umm... I wasn't talking about the 21...

I was talking about the 19.

and there is no debate. we're not debating.... just opinions and speculation.

Oh, and also, now that you mention it lebhead, the max and min wing area are noted on the tech drawings of the 21 but nowhere in the 19 drawings are there any notations of wing morph capabilities or change in wing area. Instead it notes a simple lateral movement of the wings to it's high speed position.

Edited June 12, 2004 by Nani?!

[Anubis]

hmm... well, i think that pic makes it pretty clear that the 21's wings DO morph, as shown in the animation. as far as i'm concerned, the debate is over.

umm... I wasn't talking about the 21...

I was talking about the 19.

and there is no debate. we're not debating.... just opinions and speculation.

Oh, and also, now that you mention it lebhead, the max and min wing area are noted on the tech drawings of the 21 but nowhere in the 19 drawings are there any notations of wing morph capabilities or change in wing area. Instead it notes a simple lateral movement of the wings to it's high speed position.

I'm not sure now. Your suggestion about actually folding over the legs or in an unseen slit is a good one, and plausible, but even then in the sideways lineart that goes with the detail overheads, it looks like the wings would go into the leg sweeping back. The back edge of the wings is already past the border of the taller lower half of the leg, so there's no more above space to work with.

Looking at it again, there could be a different option. Folded, the flaps still stick out past the edge of the root. Maybe for high spped mode, the flaps retract into the wing. Not really a morph, but still goes inside the wing so the edge is almost flush with the root's edge. The wing root can rotate out as if it was transforming, then the wing folds, the flaps retact, and then to root goes back into place. Then you would have the right shape. This still means that the root has to move too.

I think for the overhead detail, they didn't know the answer either. Whoever drew it knew the wings swept, but didn't know how they swept, and just drew the turn radius between points a and b.

It's only shown up that one time (I think), and so briefly during the ep. 4 dogfight (when they flew past the buiding supersonic and the glass shattered from the shockwave. You have to look carefully to see it. Honestly, I thin it was a mistake to include the wing sweep in the design. Complicates and "anime magics" and otherwise perfect design. The YF-22/YF-23 argument is valid, as the 21 was the technically more advanced bird, but the BDI hampered it (the -19 rocked it in the Supernova tests). Thankfully the design was fixed, returned to it's manual roots, and claimed it's place as the new special ops fighter. I was very pleased to see the VF-22 in M7. The YF-21 did have a couple features the -19 didn't, so the morphing wings might well have been exclusive. The Q-rau vector control system was sure exclusive to that valk alone. Good idea incorporating Q-rau elements into the -21.

Back to the YF-19. I say it could be morphing capability, retracting flaps with whole wing section having to move so the wings can fold, and then go back into place, or it could have just been a big design overlook. Either way.

Here is the matching YF-19 side view.

Edited June 12, 2004 by Anubis

[Anubis]

For completeness, the matching YF-21 side pic.

[David Hingtgen]

If they'd just animated it a bit differently, it'd work. (well, probably not STRAIGHT back, but at least more than say the Yamato one can, and more than you'd achieve by just going as far back as you can without cutting a slot in the fuselage sides) The Tu-160 can sweep its wings much further than you'd think. It does this by folding the flaps up vertically. Much like how carrier planes fold the tips up, but inboard and cut at an angle. It basically folds the flaps up against the sides of the fuselage and gets them out of the way so the wing can sweep WAY back. The YF-19's legs' sides are vertical enough that you could do the same things

This pic shows it down (horizontal) but you can easily see what part will move up out of the way if the wing were to start retracting rearwards.

http://www.flankerman.fsnet.co.uk/tu-160_files/tu_160_23.jpg

(the bottom part is just a fairing and doesn't move, the wing slides along on top of it--basically like the metal part of the wingroot on a Yamato -19)

Edited June 12, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Anubis]

If they'd just animated it a bit differently, it'd work. (well, probably not STRAIGHT back, but at least more than say the Yamato one can, and more than you'd achieve by just going as far back as you can without cutting a slot in the fuselage sides) The Tu-160 can sweep its wings much further than you'd think. It does this by folding the flaps up vertically. Much like how carrier planes fold the tips up, but inboard and cut at an angle. It basically folds the flaps up against the sides of the fuselage and gets them out of the way so the wing can sweep WAY back. The YF-19's legs' sides are vertical enough that you could do the same things

This pic shows it down (horizontal) but you can easily see what part will move up out of the way if the wing were to start retracting rearwards.

http://www.flankerman.fsnet.co.uk/tu-160_files/tu_160_23.jpg

(the bottom part is just a fairing and doesn't move, the wing slides along on top of it--basically like the metal part of the wingroot on a Yamato -19)

Ah, DH saves the day again with a plausible explanation.

So basically, the parts of the wing that would cut into the leg could just fold up vertically, and then the wings can sweep back?

[David Hingtgen]

Pretty much. Of course, you can't fold up a LOT of the flaps, or there'd be so much vertical area created you'd start having dorsal fins. Still, most swing-wing planes have the wings positioned high enough that when swept, they are actually just ABOVE the engines, which is how they get away with it. Actually I'm not sure why the Tu-160 doesn't do that, for it ALMOST can, if the wing was just slightly higher.

Basic rule of aircraft design: someone, somewhere, has already tried it.

[wolfx]

If the YF-19's wings morph during transformation to battroid mode, so does the VF-1's wings which become shorter and fit into the backpack in battroid mode so the engine intakes don't actually collide with the wings in battroid mode when doing crouches etc.

Animation oversight or morphing wings? You decide.

[VF-19]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the wings retracted into the back of the body in the VF-1. It looks like there might be enough room to pull them up at most 1 meter, but I doubt it.

[Nani?!]

If the YF-19's wings morph during transformation to battroid mode, so does the VF-1's wings which become shorter and fit into the backpack in battroid mode so the engine intakes don't actually collide with the wings in battroid mode when doing crouches etc.

Animation oversight or morphing wings? You decide.

I decide animation oversight!

Kawamori is not an aircraft engineer! He's a anime mecha designer.

All the points brought up here are valid, and anubis' last point sounds good as does DH's. But I think the folded wings feature was one of the minor (or at least one of the lesser important) details that kawamori included into the design. Otherwise, macross plus would have featured it clearly as they showed off the 21's morphing wings. At the speeds the 19 was flying in Macross plus (which were probably over mach 3), real world planes would have utilized the the sweeping wings. Anyway, the yf 19 looks too cool with the forward swept wings. I'm kinda glad it didnt sweep back in Macross +.

[VF-19]

The nasty bit about forward swept wings is that they poke out of the shockwave cone, thus they aren't the "best" for high speed flight. Theoretically, the 19 could go even faster with a permimently swept back wing (as in a total wing re-design). Current FSW designs allow the tips to flex, so that they don't snap off during high speed flight, something that the pilot doesn't want to happen.

[Nani?!]

The nasty bit about forward swept wings is that they poke out of the shockwave cone, thus they aren't the "best" for high speed flight. Theoretically, the 19 could go even faster with a permimently swept back wing (as in a total wing re-design). Current FSW designs allow the tips to flex, so that they don't snap off during high speed flight, something that the pilot doesn't want to happen.

Yes Yes,

that was the reliability issue I was talking about three or four posts ago. Maneuverability is awesome but at the cost of speed because they cause too much drag.

looks cool though.

[David Hingtgen]

For any given speed and sweep angle, (for those speeds where you have to worry about a shockwave) forward-swept creates less profile drag. And lots of little things that add up to significantly less total drag in most any situation.

The longer and pointier the nose, the easier it is to keep the wings within the nose-generated bow wave. That works for any plane.

Tip flex: the flex is the problem, not the solution. Flex leads to increased local alpha, which leads to more flex and higher loads, until the wing breaks off. Swept-back wings have the alpha/loads decrease with flex, so there's no problem. New materials can make a wing induce twist as it flexes, (kind of like instant local washout) to counteract the effects of the flex. But those are expensive, hard to work with materials. And it adds weight. This was for a long time the main anti-FSW argument: to make it strong enough to work with a metal wing, it had to be so heavy it countered out all the advantages. Then graphite/carbon/kevlar/composites etc came along, and we could make a LIGHT, strong, flex-countering wing, and we got the X-29 and later the S-37.

Maneuverability: eh, better slow-speed/high alpha control. Nothing more. Glorified F-18.

Finally--if you're going really fast (as in, Mach 3.5+) it's far better to use a supersonic airfoil, than to use sweep. Look at the X-15. Or, the F-104. Mach 2+ with a wing almost as straight as a Cessna. Of course, supersonic airfoils suck at low speed, and sweep is generally preferred, but at really high speeds no amount of sweep will be as good an airfoil optimized for high speed.

There aren't really many disadvantags to FSW, only that the materials needed to make a stiff and strong one are costly and hard to work with, as well as needing to be heavier to be stronger (related to the first). And it's the most un-stealthy thing you can do to a plane, which is why nobody's going to design a fighter with FSW right now, when stealth is all the rage.

[Nied]

I decide animation oversight!

Kawamori is not an aircraft engineer! He's a anime mecha designer.

Well if you want to get technical about it he did study aerospace engineering in college so in a sense he's both. THough IIRC he did drop out befre getting his degree.

[Nied]

There aren't really many disadvantags to FSW, only that the materials needed to make a stiff and strong one are costly and hard to work with, as well as needing to be heavier to be stronger (related to the first). And it's the most un-stealthy thing you can do to a plane, which is why nobody's going to design a fighter with FSW right now, when stealth is all the rage.

I never understood what about FSW is fundamentally unstealthy. It seems that lining up forward swept angles is just as easy as lining up aftward swept angles.

[David Hingtgen]

Neither do I, it's just mentioned so often I pretty much accept it as truth. I know, I know, (especially with how often FSW is said to be inherently unstable). Could be totally wrong! I usually like to UNDERSTAND why something is the way it is, rather than just accept it.

Thing I learned today:

FSW has less induced drag than normal swept, and almost no tip vortices/wake. Just another plus. (And I know WHY it is thus)

[Nied]

Neither do I, it's just mentioned so often I pretty much accept it as truth. I know, I know, (especially with how often FSW is said to be inherently unstable). Could be totally wrong! I usually like to UNDERSTAND why something is the way it is, rather than just accept it.

Thing I learned today:

FSW has less induced drag than normal swept, and almost no tip vortices/wake. Just another plus. (And I know WHY it is thus)

The vortices never really get a chance to form, they just slip down the trailing edge of the wing until they hit the fuselage.

Anyway. Mentioned where? If it's on the internet I'd just dismiss it out of hand (just like the inherently stable thing). If it's in some actual publications, that would give me pause (though even the Air and Space Museum in DC claims FSW is inherently unstable on the placard for the X-29)

[Jedi Knight]

Well, here's another (unlikely) possibility for sweeping the 19's wings full back. What if the entire wing structure pivots 90deg down, swing the wings full back, then pivot the wings back up. This way, the back edge of the wings wouldn't cut into the engines.

Edit in: This is how its done on the Yamato toys.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Jedi Knight

[Anubis]

Well, here's another (unlikely) possibility for sweeping the 19's wings full back. What if the entire wing structure pivots 90deg down, swing the wings full back, then pivot the wings back up. This way, the back edge of the wings wouldn't cut into the engines.

Edit in: This is how its done on the Yamato toys.

I already said that.

There is still a bit of the flaps that wouldn't be flush, and the root wouldn't be able to go all the way back to where it's supposed to be, unless the flaps either a) retract into the wing, or b) fold vertically like DH suggested (wouldn't be perfectly flush, but looks to be the easiest solution).

[imode]

Well, if you watch that one episode of M7 where Basara is pretending that his VF-19 is a VF-1, you'd see that those joints make no sort of 90 folding movement. He just has them swept back, then sweeps them forward.

[Rodavan]

Good thread

I am busy with a cg model of a VF-19 that must animate to go through all the modes . I have been puzzled about where the wings go when in battroid mode , now I have some ideas what to do , also the feet has got some issues , if you look @ the picture shown above the fit nicely in battroid mode ,yet I you model them in fighter mode ,they fit nicely , the same feet in Battroid mode looks small incomparison.

maybe I just need to re model the feet ......

[Anubis]

Good thread

I am busy with a cg model of a VF-19 that must animate to go through all the modes . I have been puzzled about where the wings go when in battroid mode , now I have some ideas what to do , also the feet has got some issues , if you look @ the picture shown above the fit nicely in battroid mode ,yet I you model them in fighter mode ,they fit nicely , the same feet in Battroid mode looks small incomparison.

maybe I just need to re model the feet ......

You do have it so the feet slide out then open right? In M+ before the feet moved up and down for the vectoring moviement check on the runway, they slid out some from their "parked" state, and then moved up and down. The yamato doesn't have that modeled.