Magic and technology in Macross

[bsu legato]

Elements weren't removed because they were deemed unfavorable, it was just a simple matter of only having enough time to tell a specific part of the story, then of course being a bit more time for an epilogue.

Pure, unadulterated speculation. Unless I've missed something, we've never found some sort of "uncut" preproduction script for what Macross was originally written to be. The closest we've come was the Battle City Megarodo summary, most of which eventually wound up in SDF Macross minus the overt parody.

Your assumptions on all matters are subjectiv, especially in the face of current evidence at the way the franchise is being handled.

And your assumptions aren't? And no matter what Kawamori retcons into future Macross projects, that's in no way proof that he had always intended for it to be there.

Like it or not, many anime seires contain similar elements, and there's no resason to believe that Macross is an exception

What do other anime series have to do with this? For example, I enjoyed Gungrave but I'd put my fist through the TV if somebody necro-rised Roy Focker.

[Sundown]

Elements weren't removed because they were deemed unfavorable, it was just a simple matter of only having enough time to tell a specific part of the story, then of course being a bit more time for an epilogue. Your assumptions on all matters are subjectiv, especially in the face of current evidence at the way the franchise is being handled.

This straight from Kawamori's mouth near SDF's release, or just a favorable and loose interpretation based on some things he'd said about Macross and Macross 7 much, much, much, later (most likely being the only way he could spin it, and explain how M7 could fit into SDF's continuity)? Because I'd count the latter as an assumption of sorts.

In my observations, creators only ever need to explain things away as being "my idea all along" when those ideas fit poorly with their previous works. A good storyteller doing good storytelling doesn't need to do any of this. Exhibit A, George Lucas, and claims that he'd "always thought Stormtroopers were clones."

Exhibit B, some fanboy claiming one throwaway line in A New Hope-- "Aren't you a little short to be a Stormtrooper?"-- is somehow proof positive that Stormy's were clones in Lucas's mind.

Like it or not, many anime seires contain similar elements, and there's no resason to believe that Macross is an exception.

Now who's assuming again? Basing absolute claims on supposed "No reason to believe" is an assumption. And many solid reasons to doubt these claims have been provided, and have enough weight to cast doubt that if SDF was 15 episodes longer, it'd somehow turn into Macross 7. Thinking that mystical elements must be integral to the SDF concept, despite the fact we see none of it in the series, simply because some other anime (I'm guessing we're talking about Gundam again) features magic and twinkledust is muddled reasoning. That's assumption upon assumption upon assumption.

If we follow this line of reasoning, then we have no reason to doubt that magic should and does exist in Appleseed, Planetes, Patlabor and GITS either.

The fact that watching SDF alone gets you absolutely zero of the vibe that there's anything Spiritia-ish at all about the subject matter-- when it's the basis and foundational concept of the whole series in M7-- says that the creators' aims and ideas have changed drastically in the span of 15 years.

But I suppose Star Trek could have turned into Harry Potter if only a few extra episodes were added to the original series.

-Al

[Sundown]

But now you're making your usual leap of "since there's no proof of not-X, therefore X". All you've really got going for you is the way things have developed in Macross since M7. On the other hand there's the well-known propensity of scifi/fantasy franchises to retroactively alter plotlines and rationales.

For that matter, while your demonstration is plausible, I'm not even sure Kawamori would consider it necessary or desirable to incorporate it into SDF Macross. Even though all the supernatural stuff is part of the greater Macross universe, not everything has to be affected by it.

Ding ding ding. Much better and more concisely said than I could ever manage. Keith's previous demonstration showed how M7 *might* be compatible with SDF with certain interpretations of some lines of dialogue. I'll nod vaguely to that.

But the leap he's making now, claiming that SDF most likely *does* refer to M7 Spiritia, just because there's no proof that it doesn't... is just that, a giant and implausible leap.

Reality check. I don't think Kawamori actually *cares* that much about the issue, and whether Spiritia is in SDF or not. Not enough to plant throwaway dialogue that could be interpreted, by the loyal fanboy, to reveal his MASTER PLAN NOT TO BE EXPOSED UNTIL 15 YEARS LATER. That's just... silly, and claiming that these lines most likely allude to Spiritia (and hence, can prove that Spiritia is integral to SDF) is just overestimating one's own fanboy importance to the extreme.

Of course, if pressed, he'll spin things in his enigmatic and charming way, thereby sending fanboys on both sides into a frenzy. For Great JPop CD sales. Take off every pink booby valk.

-Al

[Radd]

My feeling on spiritua is that it was simply giving a name to the basic theme of Macross since the beginning, the power of the human spirit, will, and determination. The lights and glitter associated with spiritua in Macross 7 seems to me to be the visual equivelant of hearing sound in space. In that respect, the themes present in Macross 7 were very much central to SDF Macross, if the ideas if mystical powers and whatnot were not so ingrained in the story that was told.

Regardless, "spiritua" as seen in Macross 7 never made rocks float. I'm still inclined to believe this has more to do with AIPHOS (or however it's spelled), or the Protoculture, than magic until the show proves otherwise.

I'm inclined to agree with those who stated that mystical trappings do not mean magic is truly at work.

[Keith]

When all is said & done, it remains true that these elements "are" part of Macross, and that there's no reason to believe they were never intended to be. Argue all you like however.

[Backstabber]

Just to add CoryHolmes' explanation--even though dinosaurs and elephants were/are made of similar stuff to humans, their body shapes and skeletal structures are very different. It's related to a concept known as the "square-cube law"--if you scale a creature uniformly, its volume and mass will go up by the cube of the linear scale, while the cross-section of its bones will only increase by the square.

Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion and debate around this topic has gotten caught up in the Creationism debate, which I don't think is worth rehashing here.

You lost me!!!!

So it's thought that this isn't possible because it's human form??? What if The Zent size is the largest ... can a human form not go smaller like a minature pony?

It just seems to me that if a bone/joint is five times larger then that bone/joint is 5 times stronger.

Edited June 12, 2004 by Backstabber

[ewilen]

From the skimming I've done of various articles (weeding out a lot of Creationism vs. Darwinism crap in the process) I gather that the strength of a simple object like a steel girder is proportional to the area of its cross section. So making it larger makes it stronger. The problem is that if you simply scale it with the same proportions, its volume goes up faster than the cross-sectional area. The mass would increase at the same rate as the volume. E.g. if you double the size, the cross-sectional area goes up by a factor of four, but the volume and mass increase by eight.

Because of this effect, any forces acting on the object which are proportional to mass will start to overwhelm the material strength as the object is scaled up. Forces which are proportional to mass include gravity and inertia. So at some point, the object will collapse under its own weight. Or if the effect of gravity is reduced (e.g., on the moon or in space), the stresses induced by inertia will still be present, as when pivoting the object from an attachment point (think of an arm or a leg). If the object collides with something else, the energy of impact at a given velocity is also proportional to the mass. So in general, the object can't be moved as quickly (lest it bend or snap), and if it's involved in a collision at a given velocity, it will shatter more easily.

Although living organisms are a lot more complicated than steel girders, here's a thought experiment. (DO NOT DO THIS FOR REAL!) Drop a mouse from a height of ten feet. Chances are it won't be hurt at all. Now drop a horse from the same height...and then hope you don't have to call the glue factory.

Another part of the square-cube law is surface area: volume goes up by the cube of the linear scale, while surface area goes up by the square. (Simple example: compare a cube that's 1 inch on a side to one that 2 inches on a side. The ratio of surface area to volume is 6:1 for the first; for the second it's 6*2^2:2^3 or 3:1.) For living organisms this affects heat retension and dissipation, oxygen absorption and elimination of waste gases, also absorption of nutrients through the digestion system. Insects, being small, can absorb oxygen through their skin. We need lungs with their intricately convoluted (almost "fractal") interiors in order to have enough surface area.

Edited June 12, 2004 by ewilen

[Backstabber]

I have done some reading on the subject as well and all though the article I read states that giants can't exist I have a hard time understanding why.

That block that is doubled. Although it's volume increases to a larger number than the surface area it is increasing within ratio. That cube that started it all had a volume already greater than it's surface area.

Example: my nine inch foot supports 175 pounds of wieght. If I increase it's size by double and it becomes an 18 inch foot it should be able to support 350 pounds just as easily as a nine inch supports 175 pounds. The ratio is staying the same.

So in the building of blocks, 1 block changed to 8 to double it's measurements. While the volume went to 8 and it's support surface only by 4 .. that is all that is needed. Where this law comes into place is the crush limit but if the ratios are constant that limit won't be reached. However as long as the ratio's stay the same there should be no effect to the body as a whole. In other words the strength of a titanium rod only a centimeter thick has the same strength ratio as a titanium rod ten feet thick and can support the same weight ratio.

I don't think I'm explaining myself too well and I apollogize but if this law was true by the means as being used in this thread then I could not go to a world that was smaller than my enviroment now. Even though in this world my body is proven to substain itself.. "if" I went to a world were humans were 10 times smaller they would rationalize my body should be collasping upon itself when all I did was move from point A to point B?? That just doesn't make since to me.

As far as heat and oxygen respiration and what not... again if the ratios stay the exact same they shouldn't be a factor. Given the fact that my body has doubled in size which means it has doubled the amount of heat it produces should mean that it can breathe just fine through the double thickness of skin.

The example of a mouse and horse being dropped is apples to oranges IMO. A mouse is structured different than a horse. Since this all comes down to weight ratios a proper example would drop a horse the size of a mouse and a full size horse ten feet and I would bet the smaller horse would be in worse shape because ten feet to horse the size of a mouse would be like 60 feet to a full sized horse.

This brings me to my next point. The article also stated that if a human was shrunk to the size of a mouse that the bones would be to thick and therefor to heavy for the human to move. I can't see how this could be true if say you were put in a sizing chamber and every ratio of your body stayed the same, perfect scale, then the body should work just as it did before transformation.

Being smaller doesn't mean more agile or faster from a ratio standard. Hikaru and Misa would seem to run as fast as mice to the Zentradi only because of the adapted perceptions the Zentradi have grown accustomed to from their size. Once the ratio becomes equal the Zentradi would seem to run just as fast as mice.

To sum up what I believe, the square cube law works great on in-animate materials so engineers can caculate what they need to know. Like my foot example, bone structuring is like engineers placing pillars at certain points with certain articualtions so it can support more than it's crush limit. (Like a bridge) Until one of these scientist's creates a "fit" giant human and shows the world the world that it can't stand I won't believe that it's not possible. (what I mean by fit is not one like a 400 pound man standing on ankles the size of toothpicks)

Hope I made some sense.

Edited June 13, 2004 by Backstabber

[ewilen]

You might want to take it up at a science/biology forum. We're sidetracking the thread.

[Backstabber]

I thought we were discussing the science vs. magic?

It's your thread though.. sorry.

[Aegis!]

Jesus Christ this thread is a complete joke , people going OT , other relating M0 to M7 stuff that´s not even nearly related with it , etc...

Come on guys , if you wanna do a debate on this things go somewhere else , we´ve been through this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 times before.

Back on topic.

IMO , the reason behind making M0 is exactly to explain the nature of Protoculture intervention on earth and our relationship with them and Zentradis and all that stuff.

I´ll quote myself from another thread:

To all those who dissaprove the flying rocks elements have any of you ever noticed that the only rocks to fly when sara sings are those with printed glowing diagrams on it ?

and strangely enough we only see flying rocks in ¨religious spots¨ around the island and NOT in other places ?

Only a fool wouldn´t notice the conection there with protoculture technology

Those who see this elements as mistical are just as dumb as Mayan natives , sharing their perspective has to be one of the weirdest effects M0 has had with some fans , specially when Kawamori is actually pointing out how this so-called ¨mystical¨ elements are really Protoculture technology that the Mayans see as supernatural elements.

The Mayan islanders were genetically marked by the Protoculture , that mark is recognised by the remnants of the protoculture technology on Mayan and by the APHOS when their brain activity goes to HIGH (just watch the reaction of the APHOS body to the Mayans ceremony on Asuka, and of course the flying rocks).

Why does the rocks stop floating just as Sara concentration dissapears ? is it because she´s no longer emiting spirita ? Bullocks !

If it was a matter of spirita going into action then the effects would be greatly different (specially with the APHOS).

It´s just because the protoculture remnants are no longer reacting to Sara´s brain/cell activity , remember the blood sample Aries was looking at , the rocks would only fly as long as the cells had some activity. That to me is a sign of the Protoculture genetical intervention on humans and is exactly what is being indicated by Kawamori and Co.

Those who think this is some sort of M7 rehash on spirita and those who would hate this to be just that as just as blind as the other for being unable to see the strong connection M0 has with what SDF Macross tried to describe about the Protoculture.

Edited June 13, 2004 by Aegis!

[Backstabber]

Jesus Christ this thread is a complete joke , people going OT , other relating M0 to M7 stuff that´s not even nearly related with it , etc...

Come on guys , if you wanna do a debate on this things go somewhere else , we´ve been through this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 times before.

Read the topic ... it says "IN MACROSS", that would be all the series. Spoilers in M0 is a side note.

Edited June 14, 2004 by Backstabber

[bsu legato]

Jesus Christ this thread is a complete joke , people going OT , other relating M0 to M7 stuff that´s not even nearly related with it , etc...

Come on guys , if you wanna do a debate on this things go somewhere else , we´ve been through this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 times before.

Thanks a lot, Aegis. Hey...here's a suggestion: why don't you leave the moderating to the mods, or I'll ask you to go somewhere.

[Aegis!]

Jesus Christ this thread is a complete joke , people going OT , other relating M0 to M7 stuff that´s not even nearly related with it , etc...

Come on guys , if you wanna do a debate on this things go somewhere else , we´ve been through this 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,001  times before.

Thanks a lot, Aegis. Hey...here's a suggestion: why don't you leave the moderating to the mods, or I'll ask you to go somewhere.

Pardon me , I didn´t notice you were doing their homework as well

[bsu legato]

Pardon me , I didn´t notice you were doing their homework as well

Hardee har har. Look, aside from Keith's usual aversion to grown up discourse we were all having a nice little discussion here. And yet you decided to jump in and tell us how foolish we are to bother debating any of this. And while I'm at it, where would you suggest we take out Macross discussion. Robotech.com? The fact is that there's nothing wrong with this thread. We're all being civil, there's no bashing and it's on topic for this forum. If you still have a beef with this thread, there's a specific forum for your complaints. Otherwise, contribute to the thread or get out.

[ewilen]

I thought we were discussing the science vs. magic?

It's your thread though.. sorry.

No problem. It's just that my intention for this thread wasn't to debate the scientific details of whether a particular element is "realistic" or not--it was to consider whether there's been a shift or discontinuity in the underlying "fictional reality" going from SDF Macross to M0, and whether people like or dislike it. I think that posts on M7 are arguably relevant, too, since it's an open question as to whether there will be a spiritia connection to all the M0 weirdness.

[Aegis!]

Pardon me , I didn´t notice you were doing their homework as well

Hardee har har. Look, aside from Keith's usual aversion to grown up discourse we were all having a nice little discussion here. And yet you decided to jump in and tell us how foolish we are to bother debating any of this. And while I'm at it, where would you suggest we take out Macross discussion. Robotech.com? The fact is that there's nothing wrong with this thread. We're all being civil, there's no bashing and it's on topic for this forum. If you still have a beef with this thread, there's a specific forum for your complaints. Otherwise, contribute to the thread or get out.

Viddy well my friend , it seems you somehow have taken my well intentoned ¨lets go back on topic¨ post as a ¨you´re an idiot I hate you for that now let´s get into a stupid mindless fight about how much youi hate me too¨ kinda post when it was onviously not.

I don´t see how discussing about Star wars is on topic but do what you want , you´re free.

I didn´t say discussing M7 was OT , I said Spirita or any M7 stuff wasn´t related to what M0 was all about.

[Zentrandude]

I have done some reading on the subject as well and all though the article I read states that giants can't exist I have a hard time understanding why.

That block that is doubled. Although it's volume increases to a larger number than the surface area it is increasing within ratio. That cube that started it all had a volume already greater than it's surface area.

Example: my nine inch foot supports 175 pounds of wieght. If I increase it's size by double and it becomes an 18 inch foot it should be able to support 350 pounds just as easily as a nine inch supports 175 pounds. The ratio is staying the same.

So in the building of blocks, 1 block changed to 8 to double it's measurements. While the volume went to 8 and it's support surface only by 4 .. that is all that is needed. Where this law comes into place is the crush limit but if the ratios are constant that limit won't be reached. However as long as the ratio's stay the same there should be no effect to the body as a whole. In other words the strength of a titanium rod only a centimeter thick has the same strength ratio as a titanium rod ten feet thick and can support the same weight ratio.

I don't think I'm explaining myself too well and I apollogize but if this law was true by the means as being used in this thread then I could not go to a world that was smaller than my enviroment now. Even though in this world my body is proven to substain itself.. "if" I went to a world were humans were 10 times smaller they would rationalize my body should be collasping upon itself when all I did was move from point A to point B?? That just doesn't make since to me.

As far as heat and oxygen respiration and what not... again if the ratios stay the exact same they shouldn't be a factor. Given the fact that my body has doubled in size which means it has doubled the amount of heat it produces should mean that it can breathe just fine through the double thickness of skin.

The example of a mouse and horse being dropped is apples to oranges IMO. A mouse is structured different than a horse. Since this all comes down to weight ratios a proper example would drop a horse the size of a mouse and a full size horse ten feet and I would bet the smaller horse would be in worse shape because ten feet to horse the size of a mouse would be like 60 feet to a full sized horse.

This brings me to my next point. The article also stated that if a human was shrunk to the size of a mouse that the bones would be to thick and therefor to heavy for the human to move. I can't see how this could be true if say you were put in a sizing chamber and every ratio of your body stayed the same, perfect scale, then the body should work just as it did before transformation.

Being smaller doesn't mean more agile or faster from a ratio standard. Hikaru and Misa would seem to run as fast as mice to the Zentradi only because of the adapted perceptions the Zentradi have grown accustomed to from their size. Once the ratio becomes equal the Zentradi would seem to run just as fast as mice.

To sum up what I believe, the square cube law works great on in-animate materials so engineers can caculate what they need to know. Like my foot example, bone structuring is like engineers placing pillars at certain points with certain articualtions so it can support more than it's crush limit. (Like a bridge) Until one of these scientist's creates a "fit" giant human and shows the world the world that it can't stand I won't believe that it's not possible. (what I mean by fit is not one like a 400 pound man standing on ankles the size of toothpicks)

Hope I made some sense.

better off to take that stuff lightly why giants cant exist. with all the calculations of the thinktanks done we still haven't seen a giant size human and recorded its true effects with grav on its body. think about those 600lb woman we see on tv that can stand and walk for awhile. while true they can't stand for very long it still very important the human frame can stand that much stress.

mankind doesn't know everything yet and we cant assume that what ever can or can't be is true or false. mathematicly bumble bees can't fly but they do.

about magic vs science theres not much to go on about magic in macross if you do then your proly looking too closely and not looking at the big picture but the magical elements from macross to mac7 and m0 represents elements man yet to understand its nature but looks magical to the eyes or people

little link

[Keith]

Hmm, protoculture technology that fly's, and looks like rocks. Now who's reaching? While I'm sure the Protoculture "could have" re-invented the rock, if you think it only has something to do with hi-tech flying voice recognition rocks, then you're in heavy denial.

[Zentrandude]

Hmm, protoculture technology that fly's, and looks like rocks. Now who's reaching? While I'm sure the Protoculture "could have" re-invented the rock, if you think it only has something to do with hi-tech flying voice recognition rocks, then you're in heavy denial.

being sarcastic is very sad for you. if your part of an advance culture that make godlike creatures im sure rocks fly with a command of your voice would be childs play while our top scientist could't figure out how its diffent from another rock that can't fly.

[Keith]

Hmm, protoculture technology that fly's, and looks like rocks. Now who's reaching? While I'm sure the Protoculture "could have" re-invented the rock, if you think it only has something to do with hi-tech flying voice recognition rocks, then you're in heavy denial.

being sarcastic is very sad for you. if your part of an advance culture that make godlike creatures im sure rocks fly with a command of your voice would be childs play while our top scientist could't figure out how its diffent from another rock that can't fly.

Nope, I can assure you being sarcastic is very entertaining for me, not sad at all. See look, no teers ::flutters eyelashes:::

But wait about 6 more months, and this matter "should' be settled.

[ewilen]

better off to take that stuff lightly why giants cant exist. with all the calculations of the thinktanks done we still haven't seen a giant size human and recorded its true effects with grav on its body. think about those 600lb woman we see on tv that can stand and walk for awhile. while true they can't stand for very long it still very important the human frame can stand that much stress.

mankind doesn't know everything yet and we cant assume that what ever can or can't be is true or false. mathematicly bumble bees can't fly but they do.

The whole "bumblebees can't fly" story is essentially an urban legend arising from a back-of-the-envelope calculation based on a highly simplified model.

And as for the 600 lb. women, they're nothing compared to a 10 meter-tall creature with human proportions, whose weight would be about 125 times that of a normal-sized human--i.e., about 10 tons.

But the overall point is that whether or not a 10 meter human is a realistic prospect from the standpoint of biophysics, I don't think anyone feels it necessary to employ a "supernatural" explanation for how the Zentradi can stand and move. By contrast, a lot of people see the "weird" stuff in M0 in "supernatural" terms.

And again, even if you think that ESP and telekinesis are no more or less believable than giant humanoids and hyperspace folds, they're a new variety of science fictional element compared to the original series.

[Renato]

Please note that I am neutral in this particular argument, though I am quite enjoying reading the responses.

Here are some things I just remembered; I'm gonna throw some fuel into this fire:

There's been no floating rocks in M7, but compare this:

Episode 2 (end) / 3 (opening) of M0: Sara, while levitating the rocks, also makes flowers bloom.

With this:

Final Episode of Macross 7: Basara makes the bunch of flowers bloom.

Also: M7-- The Galaxy is calling me: Fire Bomber and the Doc Chiba conduct an experiment to see if they can make sunflowers turn. Of course they fail (because Mylene is crap), but Emilia's voice makes them move slightly. I can't really explain how the "dimensional irregularity" is caused, though.

Also, Basara was convinced he could make the mountain move, though I always just thought that was a manifestation of his strong willed character rather than him actually having an ability to move rocks. However, you never know, maybe he had some power similar to Sara.

None of this is actually my opinion since I haven't thought about it properly in my head, these are just things that may or may not be linked, or may just be coincidedces.

[Zentrandude]

while true m7 doesn't have floating rocks they have a temple with looks like stone floor that can analize dna in blood something like that would be more high tech than some flying rocks.

also true that the bumblebee model was simplified but its still standard and insect wing research is still going on and by the way one of the scientist whos researching how it works and making a mechincal version that work was using that example so take it up with him if you see its wrong.

[treatment]

Thus far, only Mao's blood and the AFOS/AIPHOS have shown reaction to Sara's singing.

No other Mayan-bloodsamples were shown to have reacted to Sara's singing, therefore they are eliminated from the equation as the Mayan people were not genetically marked as a group. Only Sara and Mao were. The only other option is that the Mayan island itself is the thing that was genetically-marked, i.e. flying rocks and flying totem.

The flying totem was composed of "red clay" internally that could mean it's actually some sort of "dried up/solidified blood relic".

Mao's blood was compatible with the AFOS.

As for the mystical part, it is just that. It's the presentation of Protoculture-tech thru Sara in the Mayan society. She's not magical. There's something else more about her, and by extension, Mao, too. Sara's the religous head of the Mayan society, i.e. the shaman, the priestess, the Guardian of the Wind. All the talk about the Kadun by the Mayan people are religious in nature.

Aries cannot scientifically explain Mao's bloodcell-reactions and the PCS coming from Sara when Sara was singing, even tho she had witnessed it personally. She has her own suspicions and it's colored by the protoculture-theory bias.

It's so easy.

Edited June 14, 2004 by treatment

[JValk]

Mystical force with a layer of technology? Minmay's voice with old protoculture song broadcast from the SDF-1? Basara's Spirita with a jazzed-up guitar/valk? Sara's mayan roots hardwired into a jerry-rigged VF-0 busting up the Anti-UN? Could happen!

[Kamion]

wow... you guys have too much time on your hands to have such an in-depth discussion that goes off topic and into word definitions and other stuff.

Basically, some people will think it's "wierd" to have mystical/magical stuff in Macross (me) and others think it's all just fine. It's just how each individual feels/thinks. The end.

[Sundown]

Viddy well my friend , it seems you somehow have taken my well intentoned ¨lets go back on topic¨ post as a ¨you´re an idiot I hate you for that now let´s get into a stupid mindless fight about how much youi hate me too¨ kinda post when it was onviously not.

Really? Maybe just me, but this doesn't strike me as the best way to get folks peaceably on topic:

Those who see this elements as mistical are just as dumb as Mayan natives

Yes, it's obvious that rocks floating are related to Mayan markings and Sara's singing. But it's not completely obvious that it's flat out non-mystical protoculture technology. It certainly hasn't been presented that way at all-- in fact there's a heavy dose of mystical in the presentation-- and that's what folks don't care for. Fanboys paying attention might conclude that the magicky effects are protoculture technological in nature, but it hasn't been proven decisively either way.

And those of us have issues with the presentation have issues not so much for whether those effects are magical, but rather, have issues with the series showing that sort of thing and not being given real explaination so far... and fearing that at most we'll just get "it's protoculture... and stuff" as clarification in the final episode. That's not a comfortable and satisfying ending for those who don't care for the mystical in their Macross. Hopefully that won't be the case.

When all is said & done, it remains true that these elements "are" part of Macross, and that there's no reason to believe they were never intended to be. Argue all you like however.

There are plenty of reasons to believe that SDF might not have been intended to incorporate the mystical, beyond simply not having the time or budget for it. But these of course, are too inconvenient too mull at length over, at least for those holding certain agendas and hopes.

This is amusing... on one hand, M7/M0 defenders are claiming that there's nothing mystical at all about Spiritia and the weird freaky floating rocks in M0-- on the other hand, we have M7/M0 defenders claiming that they're outrightly mystical, so much so that in some weird way, it shows the mystical to be present in SDF as well. Then there are those stuck in the middle who just don't care much for the idea altogether, who were rather enjoying SDF and M+, before Kawamori decided to take a long hike towards Weird.

-Al

Edited June 15, 2004 by Sundown

[KingNor]

Viddy well my friend , it seems you somehow have taken my well intentoned ¨lets go back on topic¨ post as a ¨you´re an idiot I hate you for that now let´s get into a stupid mindless fight about how much youi hate me too¨ kinda post when it was onviously not.

Really? Maybe just me, but this doesn't strike me as the best way to get folks peaceably on topic:

Those who see this elements as mistical are just as dumb as Mayan natives

Yes, it's obvious that rocks floating are related to Mayan markings and Sara's singing. But it's not completely obvious that it's flat out non-mystical protoculture technology. It certainly hasn't been presented that way at all-- in fact there's a heavy dose of mystical in the presentation-- and that's what folks don't care for. Fanboys paying attention might conclude that the magicky effects are protoculture technological in nature, but it hasn't been proven decisively either way.

And those of us have issues with the presentation have issues not so much for whether those effects are magical, but rather, have issues with the series showing that sort of thing and not being given real explaination so far... and fearing that at most we'll just get "it's protoculture... and stuff" as clarification in the final episode. That's not a comfortable and satisfying ending for those who don't care for the mystical in their Macross. Hopefully that won't be the case.

When all is said & done, it remains true that these elements "are" part of Macross, and that there's no reason to believe they were never intended to be. Argue all you like however.

There are plenty of reasons to believe that SDF might not have been intended to incorporate the mystical, beyond simply not having the time or budget for it. But these of course, are too inconvenient too mull at length over, at least for those holding certain agendas and hopes.

This is amusing... on one hand, M7/M0 defenders are claiming that there's nothing mystical at all about Spiritia and the weird freaky floating rocks in M0-- on the other hand, we have M7/M0 defenders claiming that they're outrightly mystical, so much so that in some weird way, it shows the mystical to be present in SDF as well. Then there are those stuck in the middle who just don't care much for the idea altogether, who were rather enjoying SDF and M+, before Kawamori decided to take a long hike towards Weird.

-Al

you've summed up everything i wanted to say about MO much more eloquently than i could do myself. thank you!

[1st Border Red Devil]

I hate to add to this thread....cause lets be honest...I dislike Macross Zero and I hate Macross 7....and coming to the defense of either is an anathema to me....

but....

couldnt Spiritia follow Clarke's Law?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Arthur C. Clarke

Is it really so outrageous to believe that what we saw in Macross 7 was simply the technology of the Protoculture?

[Radd]

I hate to add to this thread....cause lets be honest...I dislike Macross Zero and I hate Macross 7....and coming to the defense of either is an anathema to me....

but....

couldnt Spiritia follow Clarke's Law?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Arthur C. Clarke

Is it really so outrageous to believe that what we saw in Macross 7 was simply the technology of the Protoculture?

That has actually been brought up. The argument now is not that these elements don't belong in Macross, but they way they're presented does not belong in Macross.

Basically, if I understand correctly, that the mystical flavour given to the events in M0 just don't belong, in some people's opinions, even if it is a part of the overall plot that it is Protoculture influence and not magic.

However, there are also those that are simply worried that it won't be explained in this way by the end of the series.

That is also the basis of many of my own Spiritua arguments, that it's not really mystical or magical, just flavoured that way by the M7 director.

[Keith]

I hate to add to this thread....cause lets be honest...I dislike Macross Zero and I hate Macross 7....and coming to the defense of either is an anathema to me.... 

but....

couldnt Spiritia follow Clarke's Law?

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic - Arthur C. Clarke

Is it really so outrageous to believe that what we saw in Macross 7 was simply the technology of the Protoculture?

That all depends on what you consider "technology." The overall concept of spiritia being that every lving thing generates an aura. The feelings that an individual feels & exert change the type of aura. If you consider biological life forms having the ability to radiate energy based on w hat they're doing, then sure, it's technology (biologically produced of course).

[Final Vegeta]

I have a theory: the island is not a Protoculture vessel nor a city, it was supposed to be an artifical hatcher, a confined ground where the specimen could live on his own but not escape.

Since the Protoculture has arguably a life span not different from that of humans, they couldn't afford spending their whole life studying a specimen, and after all few years were too early to judge a species worthy, so they came home. Just in case they left AFOS, so that if the species were become too dangerous and developed interstellar travels, the AFOS was supposed to stop the experiment before it was too late. At least that's what I have understood.

FV

[Zentrandude]

I have a theory: the island is not a Protoculture vessel nor a city, it was supposed to be an artifical hatcher, a confined ground where the specimen could live on his own but not escape.

Since the Protoculture has arguably a life span not different from that of humans, they couldn't afford spending their whole life studying a specimen, and after all few years were too early to judge a species worthy, so they came home. Just in case they left AFOS, so that if the species were become too dangerous and developed interstellar travels, the AFOS was supposed to stop the experiment before it was too late. At least that's what I have understood.

FV

sounds like one of those low budget movies i saw where a giant floating mountain comes out for the ground and has like an alien and observe and records the life on the planet before wiping the slate clean as to kill all life on planet to start up again.