Magic and technology in Macross

[ewilen]

Over in the Macross Zero 4 thread some people have complained about the introduction of magic or supernatural elements to Macross. Others have responded that the "magical" elements seen in M0 can be explained as advanced technology developed by the Protoculture.

My response was

Science vs. magic: while telekinesis is how people refer to it in sci-fi, and the underlying principles may be explained in different ways, it's still not "hard" SF since it's not based on real-world physics. Just saying "it's technology developed by the Protoculture" doesn't help much, although it may remove some of the "mystical/religious" feel which some dislike. Same goes for ESP, precognition, etc.

If I were to take a stab at firming up the science, I might try to make a connection to nanotechnology or quantum mechanics.

Anyway, I don't mind the drift into fantasy too much. Nor would I miss it if they left it out.

Several posters responded that Macross has always had fantastic elements. E.g., Aegis wrote

As if stoping a whole fleet of giant soldiers witna pop idol kinda pop star was ever HARD SF

So allow me clarify and expand.

Yes, SDF Macross wasn't realistic in a whole bunch of ways. But none of the unrealistic parts depended on acceptance of magical or supernatural concepts. It's true that many parts relied on scientific or technological concepts which are speculative at best--the hyperspace fold and artificial gravity--definitely; arguably the beam weapons and the toughness of the Valkyries (retroactively explained as OT SWAG armor). The fusion engines are borderline--beyond today's science but seemingly at the edge of its grasp. By comparison, the cybernetic engineering technology required to build a plane that turns into a robot is relatively down-to-earth.

The cloning system of the Zentradi can also be seen as a mere extension of technology we already possess--although the transfer of consciousness between Zentradi and their micronized forms raises some difficult philosophical problems. (Unless, that is, the portion of the brain which is the seat of consciousness is transferred intact instead of just "copied". Maybe Zentradis have tiny little brains inside their giant heads?)

The fact that Zentradi are giants whose bodies probably couldn't stand the stresses of their own movements has generally passed over in the name of "suspension of disbelief". I've argued that if an in-story explanation is needed, we can posit that the Zentradi's giant bodies actually incorporate structures/materials unlike human flesh and bone. E.g., bones made of alloy and some kind of strong mesh or rigging to reinforce flesh. In any case, no appeal has been made to an overtly supernatural explanation--it may be unrealistic, but it's not magical.

Finally, while the pop-idol culture attack in the SDF Macross story might seem laughable to SF fans who aren't charmed by Macross, there's nothing supernatural or even super-scientific about it unless you posit a connection to anima spiritia. (I haven't seen much of M7 but I've seen a few posters make the connection.)

Some posters have claimed that Sharon did some things in M+ which were "magical". I don't see it that way, although the animated coaxial cables are hard to explain.

Now, in M0, I think we have much more overtly supernatural/magical elements. Again, I don't particularly mind, although I'd be just as happy to do without them. But that might require a completely different story.

Among these are:

• Levitating rocks/flying totem poles
  
• Precognition (Sara sees things before they happen)
  
• Clairvoyance (Sara's mind link to the Bird Man's head)
  

As I wrote earlier, it might be possible to explain these things by means of nanotechnology or quantum mechanics. But they really do seem to represent a drift away from the more "scientific" approach of SDF Macross (even if some of the science was highly speculative) to a more "mystical" feel.

(Trying to explain them in a scientific sense reminds me of...forgive the reference...and I may be wrong...midchlorians. For some reason, Lucas decided that depicting The Force as a magical/religious/mystical force in the universe was unsatisfactory. So he decided to ground it in pseudoscience by explaining that people aren't using magic when they use The Force. No, they're using a symbiotic lifeform in their cells. Perfectly scientific. Oh, by the way, the symbiotic lifeform is magical.)

On the other hand, perhaps the division between "magical" and "scientific" in fiction is more of a convention. If the literature says it's magic, it's magic. If it says it's scientific, it's scientific. Certainly, science fiction is full of ESP and telekinesis--but the style and setting gives it an SF feel.

I'll stop typing now and see what the rest of you think.

[bsu legato]

Just a slight clarification. Midichlorians are *NOT* the force, nor are they the source of it. The Force is still "an energy field, created by all living things" that "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together." Midichlorians (which are merely the Galaxy Far Far Away's version of Mitochondria) are merely our connection to the force. From the Phantom Menace script:

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all

living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.

ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the

midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the

Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to

you.

Not to derail your thread or anything, I just want to make sure everybody is debating by the same rules.

[Druna Skass]

Just a slight clarification. Midichlorians are *NOT* the force, nor are they the source of it. The Force is still "an energy field, created by all living things" that "surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together." Midichlorians (which are merely the Galaxy Far Far Away's version of Mitochondria) are merely our connection to the force. From the Phantom Menace script:

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?

QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all

living cells and communicates with the Force.

ANAKIN : They live inside of me?

QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.

ANAKIN : Symbionts?

QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the

midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the

Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.

ANAKIN : They do??

QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to

you.

Not to derail your thread or anything, I just want to make sure everybody is debating by the same rules.

That part always seemed like they ripped off Parasite Eve to me...

[ewilen]

Thanks for the clarification. Anyway, what I was trying to say was that midichlorians simply interpose a "scientific" layer on top of the "mystical" Force. It doesn't make the fundamental concept any more scientific. That's similar to saying "It's not magical. It's based on technology developed by the Protoculture, who were magical."

But (again) I can understand the notion that, no, all that stuff really is scientific and technological because the story says so. What might throw people off is the fact that two different science fiction themes are getting mashed together.

a) The theme of people who used to have high technology but forgot how to use it and/or how it works, who now interpret their technology in a mystical or religious fashion.

b) The theme of supertechnology or advanced/unexplained scientific principles that look like magic to us--like teleportation, telekinesis, ESP, etc.

So now in M0, the supertechnology is understood/remembered by the Mayans in a mystical fashion, which throws people off.

[treatment]

Why refer to Zero's stuff as magical when it is more mystical instead?

i.e.

magical typically means it just happens and unknown or spur of the moment thingymabob. There's mostly no historical, cultural, anecdotal or scientific documented processes. The term also connotes trickery.

whereas mystical connotes something otherworldly and commonly unexplainable by most scientific means, but were clearly known and/or documented in history or legends or myths or cultural traditions.

[ewilen]

Why? Because I don't think the meanings of those terms are as clear cut as that. In the world of (pop) fiction, they may be nearly interchangeable...and on top of that, a lot of concepts are influenced by use in earlier fiction or even roleplaying games.

In an academic/anthropological sense, I think you're mistaken. I think "mystical" usually refers to ways of understanding the world, usually through meditation, inspiration, and study of secret knowledge. I think "Magic" and "witchcraft" usually connote ways of affecting the world by supernatural means. E.g., making someone sick by sticking pins in an effigy, or wearing a charm to protect you in battle.

You could look the words up in a dictionary, but I doubt that would suffice. You'd probably have to refer to a textbook, and it would probably have a good deal of equivocation and finally a set of "working definitions".

So when I write "mystical", I mean something more or less connected to a supernatural understanding of the world; when I write "magical", I'm probably talking about actually doing stuff. But I may not be consistent.

[treatment]

I think you're mistaken. I think "mystical" usually refers to ways of understanding the world, usually through meditation, inspiration, and study of secret knowledge.

You just proved that Sara and Zero are more mystical than magical. Sara is a shaman. A priestess. The Guardian of the Wind. In ep-4, she was being trained in the secret knowledge of guardianship by her father.

I think "Magic" and "witchcraft" usually connote ways of affecting the world by supernatural means. E.g., making someone sick by sticking pins in an effigy, or wearing a charm to protect you in battle.

I think the term to use with "witchcraft" is "sorcery", and not "magic". But at any rate,

Magic means magic. Like pulling a bunny out of a hat. For cheap entertainment purposes. It involves sleight of hands and fakery through illusions, smokes and mirrors. Etc, etc.

Such "qualities" that are not found in Zero or it's characters.

[ewilen]

Treatment, I think you're using a very limited definition of magic. I hate to rely on a dictionary, but...

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=magic

Or consider the book Witchcraft, Oracles and Magic among the Azande, a classic of anthropology by Edward Evans-Pritchard. It's not about card tricks and pulling rabbits from hats.

[treatment]

Yes. Of course I am. Limited but directly to the point in application and implication towards analyzing Macross Zero's story, atmosphere/environment, general feel and characters.

If you're so inclined, you might also want to check what dictionary.com says about mystical, too.

[baronv]

It's a cartoooooon!

[imode]

It's a cartoooooon!

That answer won't work for fan(atic)s!

[bsu legato]

Getting back on topic, I don't think we'll see any sort of technological explanation for Sara's (apparent) powers. We certainly won't hear something really concrete, like the fact that the Protoculture altered our DNA on a submolecular level that allows the shaman bloodline to channel transdimensional energy and use it to manipulate matter...well that's a real stretch, but you see what I mean.

But at this point, I'd just be happy to get a final answer on what the AIPHOS/Birdman really is.

[ewilen]

Yes. Of course I am.  Limited but directly to the point in application and implication towards analyzing Macross Zero's story, atmosphere/environment, general feel and characters.

If you're so inclined, you might also want to check what dictionary.com says about mystical, too. 

Okay, just did. Maybe I'm suffering from tunnel vision, but the definitions seem to confirm my notion of "mystical" as having to do with understanding the world, as opposed to doing things like make rocks levitate or read peoples' minds.

[bTW, thanks for saving me the trouble imode.]

Granted there isn't a bright line separating these concepts.

I'm still not sure why the word "magic" bothers you, treatment, but I think we can both agree that it's not worth getting sidetracked. So, to shift gears...

Regardless of whether it's seen as "magical/mystical", I do think there's a shift from SDF Macross to M0, and I can understand why it might bother people. Basically, even if it's all just handwaving and pseudoscience, the rules of the universe changed.

I'll posit a metarule of science fiction and fantasy: while there are some fantastic elements to the story, everything else must be implicitly "normal". Otherwise, the story and background becomes incomprehensible since there's no way to control expectations. SDF Macross laid down the rules and stuck to them. There wasn't any telekinesis or ESP in SDF Macross. If the viewer goes into M0 hoping for a prequel that's tied closely to the original series, the introduction of the new elements is jarring. On the other hand, if M0 is seen more as an independent work, then the "baseline" Macross stuff is taken as a given and the new ("magical") stuff is part of a new premise.

[ewilen]

I don't think we'll see any sort of technological explanation for Sara's (apparent) powers. We certainly won't hear something really concrete, like the fact that the Protoculture altered our DNA on a submolecular level that allows the shaman bloodline to channel transdimensional energy and use it to manipulate matter...well that's a real stretch, but you see what I mean.

Funny, I think that we will. All this business with Hasford and with Sara's "transgression" seems to be pointing in pretty much that direction, along with the whole "Chariots of the Gods" thing with Hasford's book and the Protoculture Theory.

[bsu legato]

Oh there's definitely something going on with the shaman bloodline, but I'm not sure if Kawamori will go into the specifics of how Sara's mojo works. For all we know, near the end of Ep 5 Dr Hassford could just utter the word "Spiritia" before it cuts to the climactic battle between Roy and D.D. Similarly, we never really get any explanation as to how Sharon Apple's "powers" worked. Was her hypnosis an effect of the music? How did she project herself all over the place? Sure there's a few possibilities, but the specifics of it were really secondary to the actual story.

[Radd]

Yes. Of course I am.  Limited but directly to the point in application and implication towards analyzing Macross Zero's story, atmosphere/environment, general feel and characters.

If you're so inclined, you might also want to check what dictionary.com says about mystical, too.  

Okay, just did. Maybe I'm suffering from tunnel vision, but the definitions seem to confirm my notion of "mystical" as having to do with understanding the world, as opposed to doing things like make rocks levitate or read peoples' minds.

[bTW, thanks for saving me the trouble imode.]

Granted there isn't a bright line separating these concepts.

I'm still not sure why the word "magic" bothers you, treatment, but I think we can both agree that it's not worth getting sidetracked. So, to shift gears...

Regardless of whether it's seen as "magical/mystical", I do think there's a shift from SDF Macross to M0, and I can understand why it might bother people. Basically, even if it's all just handwaving and pseudoscience, the rules of the universe changed.

I'll posit a metarule of science fiction and fantasy: while there are some fantastic elements to the story, everything else must be implicitly "normal". Otherwise, the story and background becomes incomprehensible since there's no way to control expectations. SDF Macross laid down the rules and stuck to them. There wasn't any telekinesis or ESP in SDF Macross. If the viewer goes into M0 hoping for a prequel that's tied closely to the original series, the introduction of the new elements is jarring. On the other hand, if M0 is seen more as an independent work, then the "baseline" Macross stuff is taken as a given and the new ("magical") stuff is part of a new premise.

"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from science."

I think both sides are, at this time, quite correct in their perceptions.

First, there is a shift in the feel of the story from easily explained science, to something more beyond our reach. While it is well within the realm of belief that this is simply Protoculture technology at work, that is simply fan conjecture a this point. On top of that, all the "mystical" aspects are shown in a very mystical light, due to the nature of the story and the island inhabitants.

Whether or not it is magic or technology is not the point, it's the context it's presented in.

This could be resolved in a way that confirms the Protoculture technological influence, or it would end with the mystical left unexplained.

Either way, I'm enjoying the ride.

[Mr March]

The protoculture themselves were very advanced in many aspects of biology, biomechanics, and genetic manipulation. It may very well be that the forces at work in Macross Zero are the result of creations of the protoculture, like Aiphos. We keep seeing images of Aiphos and we are given hints of some link between Sara and Aiphos. At this point, nothing has been explained in any significant way to indicate Sara is the source of the supernatural or magical...or otherwise. For all we know, Sara could be influenced by Aiphos or seeing what the Aiphos can see. It's not really clear.

I'm not sure what will come next, but I think there may be a lot more to what is happening than I think.

[Mr March]

Double post

Edited June 10, 2004 by Mr March

[Keith]

I'm still going to stand by my argument from the episode Micro Cosmos. Britai, Exedor, & Bodolza all recognised Kaifun's movie magic powers are something familiar, an ancient force, the "power" of protoculture. While it wasn't a majorly central story element, it was definately there. Hell, they initially confused the barrier shield for the same power. It's part of the reason (that and "contamination") that Bodolza decided humans were a threat.

Micro Cosmos

Britai:What was that ability?

Exedor: Could it be....? The legendary power?!

Britai: What? They have powers like that?!

Exedor: That could explain the energy barrier we encountered earlier!

Love Concert

::after reviewing scenes of Kaifun's energy blast from Shao Pai Loon, and the barrier shield explosion:::

Bodolza: These are the miclones?

And they possess weapons this powerful?!

I don't believe it. If this is true, then they are being to be feared!

Britai: You want us to capture the miclones?

Bodolza: I have reviewed all the material you have sent, my order is in response to it. I have no doubt that those people are Protoculture. That means that they represent an extreme threat to us.

In order for this to have such a deciding factor in Bodolza's choice to take out Earth, I find this to be enough proof that at some level, "spiritia" elements were always meant to be a part of Macross. Sure Kaifun didn't have any real power, but as I said, it was familiar enough to the Zentradi to freak them out & convince them that humans were Protoculture.

I also don't see what the big deal is. These are the same basic "powers" that are being created with technology (technology that we don't have yet), so what's so hard to believe that they can be made biologically? Hell, we don't even fully understand how we work, but that doesn't mean we go against science, its just a matter of things we don't understand yet. Spiritia isn't claimed to be a spontanious magic, but an energy created by the human will. As for floating rocks, if you can believe that a tractor beam can make such things happen, then why not a biological equivilent?

All machines are, are a clumsy attempt for us to recreate mechanically what we can't yet recreate biologically.

Edited June 10, 2004 by Keith

[Keith]

Bodolza viewing the barrier explosion

[Sundown]

In order for this to have such a deciding factor in Bodolza's choice to take out Earth, I find this to be enough proof that at some level, "spiritia" elements were always meant to be a part of Macross. Sure Kaifun didn't have any real power, but as I said, it was familiar enough to the Zentradi to freak them out & convince them that humans were Protoculture.

Bodolza didn't freak because he thought the pin point barrier was "spritia"-ual in nature. He freaked because it was a SCARY FECKING BIG GIANT EXPLOSION-- the same reason the Zentradi were intrigued by the reaction weaponry the humans were using. The pin point barrier references lend nothing to the credence of the presence of spiritia and the mystical in SDF.

Kaifun's "power" only elicited references to some sort of obscure power in legend. This may or may not be spiritia, and it's too vague to call either way. I've always interpreted the reference as some power the protoculture had, likely technological, that the *Zentradi* themselves saw as mystical and incomprehensible (or were fed and lead to believe that, to keep them fearful, in line, subservient, and stupid.) How the Zentradi saw Kaifun's power isn't proof for the existence of spiritia in SDF on any level. In fact, it shows that they're easily mistaken and unreliable judges of that sort of thing.

Britai: You want us to capture the miclones?

Bodolza: I have reviewed all the material you have sent, my order is in response to it. I have no doubt that those people are Protoculture. That means that they represent an extreme threat to us.

Don't see it that way. Boldolza said it himself-- The deciding factor wasn't because they possessed mystical power. It was because the protoculture were simply dangerous to them. Spiritia as the "why" is never really in this equation.

You're presently interpreting SDF through M7 glasses-- assuming that the protoculture *do* have spiritia powers (even in 1982)-- and thus any comparison of humans to them by the Zentradi are automatically concerned with the spiritia nature of those powers. There are a lot of assumptions here, and all of them are debatable. The only point that sticks remotely is that Kaifun's power looks a little like something the protoculture had-- and even then, it's from Zentradi eyes (who are apparently easily confused... mistaking just about everything as some weird or freaky power). The fact that the Zentradi are so prone to attribute these displays of "power" as something supernatural shows that they're rather poor judges at whether something is indeed supernatural, and whether the supernatural exists at all.

Who's to say that whatever power the protoculture had wasn't confused for the mystical-- when it actually wasn't-- the exact same way human power had been? The Zentradi showed they were apt to do just that.

I'm still willing to bet that the reference wasn't meant to refer to spiritia exactly as it's depicted in M7 when SDF was originally made. The 10 second throwaway scene is more likely meant to portray the Zentradi as largely ignorant, easily confused, and more than likely to draw odd conclusions by their simplistic views and interpretations of things unknown-- that they once possessed masters that awed even them-- than it is meant to lay the groundwork for actual mystical elements in some JPop oriented series where the main characters sing the enemy to death ten years down the line.

-Al

[Keith]

The problem is, since Kawamori & co obviously have taken this "route" with Zero & 7, it only stands to support those earlier references. If it were a simple matter of Macross by itself, never having had any sequels, then you would be right, these would be vague interpretations. But since things have turned out as they have, they are "safe" assumptions. And Britai/Exedor did associate the barrier explosion with Kaifun's power

"Britai:What was that ability?

Exedor: Could it be....? The legendary power?!

Britai: What? They have powers like that?!

Exedor: That could explain the energy barrier we encountered earlier!"

Besides, I forget exactly who, but we have in the past had a reliable source that stated much of what consisted of Macross 7's story was derived from the original extended 50 some episode macross storyline.

[Sundown]

The problem is, since Kawamori & co obviously have taken this "route" with Zero & 7, it only stands to support those earlier references. If it were a simple matter of Macross by itself, never having had any sequels, then you would be right, these would be vague interpretations. But since things have turned out as they have, they are "safe" assumptions.

The fact that Kawamori & Co produced some series 10 and 20 years later doesn't say where their minds were in 1982.

The fact that there's singing valks with pink boobs-- when it would have been an abomination in SDF-- shows that they were in a decidedly different mindset. Even if elements of "vaguely mystical" were present or ever considered in SDF, it would have been presented rather differently. M7 style spiritia would have fit very poorly and been rather jarring in the SDF we do know.

It's telling that the mystical ideas were shaved from SDF, if they were ever being considered. Apparently they weren't the key ideas the creator wanted to make sure he got across. He even left it out the second time around, in DYRL. And the third time around, in Mac +.

And Britai/Exedor did associate the barrier explosion with Kaifun's power

"Britai:What was that ability?

Exedor: Could it be....? The legendary power?!

Britai: What? They have powers like that?!

Exedor: That could explain the energy barrier we encountered earlier!"

Then it shows Britai and Exedor to be prone to confusion, and attributing anything powerful and unexplainable to the "legendary power". It also shows that the "legendary power" refers to more than things that look "mystical". It apparently also refers to giant explosions. And they were still more concerned it was a FREAKY SCARY BOOM-- because the protoculture seemed to have possessed something similar-- than they were over the fact that it was Spiritia-like. Spiritia is again, never part of the equation for their concern. Only the "weaponry's" resemblance to protoculture power and it's actual witnessed power.

Spiritia only comes into the picture if you make "safe" assumptions. But the weight of what's supposed to be convincing "proof" can't be placed even on "safe" assumptions-- especially when those who disagree don't agree on those assumptions in the first place.

Besides, I forget exactly who, but we have in the past had a reliable source that stated much of what consisted of Macross 7's story was derived from the original extended 50 some episode macross storyline.

"Much" might refer as much to the colonizing theme of M7, encountering the Zentradi's masters, and using Valkyries in the cultural-shock warfare in some much more subdued manner-- as much as it could have referred to Spiritia and pink singing-valk goodness.

I know some folks have said that Kawamori's claimed M7 and its subject matter were closer to his "real vision". What the hell else is he supposed to say, that "it's just some leftover chopped up ideas we'd been playing with, that we didn't think would work that well in SDF, but that we've managed to make a lighter JPoppy, over-the-top series around... that we're dredging up now, because we want to sell you more CD's and merchandise, and I'm in a funny and exploratory mood?"

Kawamori's smarter than that.

-Al

Edited June 10, 2004 by Sundown

[Backstabber]

Just out of curiosity? The Zentradi should collaspe under their own wieght...why?

That would mean if I left Earth and stood on another planet that inhabited mouse sized beings I should collapse? I don't understand this?

[CoryHolmes]

The idea behind that is that human bone and muscle structure just aren't strong enough to support several tons of weight. A Zentradi-sized human in normal gravity would weigh so much that all his joints and ligaments would literally blow apart due to over-stressing.

[bsu legato]

Sundown is right, as usual. The Zentradi seem to know next to nothing about Miclones, only that contact with them will *somehow* destroy them. In the early episodes of SDF, Britai was skeptical that we could somehow pose any threat to the Zentradi. So naturally when they see footage from Shao Pai Loon they assume that Kaifun's apparent powers are the reason for the warnings in their records, given their lack of comprehension regarding movies and sfx. They simply believed what they were seeing was real because they didn't know any better. Inferring all this spiritia business needlessly overcomplicates SDF Macross.

[KingNor]

Inferring all this spiritia business needlessly overcomplicates SDF Macross.

thats my opinion too.

an analogy could be like with starwars.

at first it was the rebels vs the evil empire. cool

now its someone.. and jedi, vs trade federations and.. something... there is a senate involved and... a chancellor... and... diplomats.. a queen, a FAKE queen... 100,000's of boba fetts'...and... storm troopers are good guys...

in both cases they took simple, relatively tight storylines and in my opinion added a bunch of wishy washy crap. .

Edited June 10, 2004 by KingNor

[ewilen]

Just to add CoryHolmes' explanation--even though dinosaurs and elephants were/are made of similar stuff to humans, their body shapes and skeletal structures are very different. It's related to a concept known as the "square-cube law"--if you scale a creature uniformly, its volume and mass will go up by the cube of the linear scale, while the cross-section of its bones will only increase by the square.

Unfortunately, a lot of the discussion and debate around this topic has gotten caught up in the Creationism debate, which I don't think is worth rehashing here.

[Radd]

Inferring all this spiritia business needlessly overcomplicates SDF Macross.

thats my opinion too.

an analogy could be like with starwars.

at first it was the rebels vs the evil empire. cool

now its someone.. and jedi, vs trade federations and.. something... there is a senate involved and... a chancellor... and... diplomats.. a queen, a FAKE queen... 100,000's of boba fetts'...and... storm troopers are good guys...

in both cases they took simple, relatively tight storylines and in my opinion added a bunch of wishy washy crap. .

Dude, that's kinda twisting words.

I could easily say:

In the prequels it was the Jedi versus a mysterious Sith Lord.

In the OT now it's the Mon Calamari, some ex Senators, a farmboy, and smugglers vs the empire and something... there is a senate involved, an emperor, and bounty hunters, a princess, 100, 000 Tie Fighters,...and Clone troopers are bad guys.

There's many other, valid, reasons to dislike the Star Wars movies.

[Radd]

If you must make a Star Wars comparison, the medichlorians seem to fit the bill. Something that, in retrospect, could be argued was always there, but was not mentioned until recently in a new show.

[Sundown]

If you must make a Star Wars comparison, the medichlorians seem to fit the bill. Something that, in retrospect, could be argued was always there, but was not mentioned until recently in a new show.

And the new show sucked for it, making the old shows suck retroactively.

Midiclorians is very Spiritia-y in the way it was presented, and the way it reframed the older shows, definitely.

-Al

[KingNor]

Inferring all this spiritia business needlessly overcomplicates SDF Macross.

thats my opinion too.

an analogy could be like with starwars.

at first it was the rebels vs the evil empire. cool

now its someone.. and jedi, vs trade federations and.. something... there is a senate involved and... a chancellor... and... diplomats.. a queen, a FAKE queen... 100,000's of boba fetts'...and... storm troopers are good guys...

in both cases they took simple, relatively tight storylines and in my opinion added a bunch of wishy washy crap. .

Dude, that's kinda twisting words.

I could easily say:

In the prequels it was the Jedi versus a mysterious Sith Lord.

In the OT now it's the Mon Calamari, some ex Senators, a farmboy, and smugglers vs the empire and something... there is a senate involved, an emperor, and bounty hunters, a princess, 100, 000 Tie Fighters,...and Clone troopers are bad guys.

There's many other, valid, reasons to dislike the Star Wars movies.

i disagree, but thats OT, feel free to IM me and we can bash the hell out starwars ep -4

[Keith]

Fact of the matter is, Macross TV as it came out was a result of budget restraints (then re-stretching). It was cut from a projected 40+ episode run in pre-production down to a 25-26 episode run, then back up to 36 (after production had already begun, resulting in a necessary stretch out of the already shortened down story). Elements weren't removed because they were deemed unfavorable, it was just a simple matter of only having enough time to tell a specific part of the story, then of course being a bit more time for an epilogue. Your assumptions on all matters are subjectiv, especially in the face of current evidence at the way the franchise is being handled. Like it or not, many anime seires contain similar elements, and there's no resason to believe that Macross is an exception.

[ewilen]

Keith, we've been through this a dozen times. Your earlier exposition in this thread was a pretty good demonstration of how the new "supernatural" stuff could be fitted to the original series. But now you're making your usual leap of "since there's no proof of not-X, therefore X". All you've really got going for you is the way things have developed in Macross since M7. On the other hand there's the well-known propensity of scifi/fantasy franchises to retroactively alter plotlines and rationales.

For that matter, while your demonstration is plausible, I'm not even sure Kawamori would consider it necessary or desirable to incorporate it into SDF Macross. Even though all the supernatural stuff is part of the greater Macross universe, not everything has to be affected by it.

[ewilen]

Like it or not, many anime seires contain similar elements, and there's no resason to believe that Macross is an exception.

For that matter, many anime series don't have "supernatural" elements, so why should SDF Macross be an exception? Maybe we should look at the stuff that was produced around that time and earlier. We know that Gundam had Newtypes. What else was there? I don't know much about Yamato, Harlock, or Gatchaman.

OTOH even if all those shows had ESP and TK, there's a pretty good reason for Macross to be an exception: maybe Kawamori et. al. were reacting against existing trends.

So ultimately I don't think you're going to get anywhere with that particular argument.

Edited June 11, 2004 by ewilen