Would the VF-1's airbrake work?

[Commander McBride]

I was looking at my 1/72 F-15, and I realized that it's airbrake is over twice as large as that on the 1/48 Yamato VF-1. This made me wonder if the VF-1's airbrake is a practical item at all. Simply, is it too small to have any (appreciable) effect, or would it still be useful?

[Gaijin]

It'd help some I gather.

Besides, with all the "overtechnology" they gained, I'm sure it works just fine. In the show. TV. A cartoon.

[Commander McBride]

Well, obviously, it's a fictional item. But I was hoping to get some practical insight into its practicality, maybe from David Hingtgen or one of the other avation experts around here.

[wolfx]

Well, obviously, it's a fictional item. But I was hoping to get some practical insight into its practicality, maybe from David Hingtgen or one of the other avation experts around here.

I'm no aviation expert, but I think I saw real fighters that have that part up there which I dubbed "air-brakes" though I'm not sure if they really are air brakes.

[Greyryder]

The F-15's speed brake always struck me as being disproportionatly large. I've seen speedbrakes on other planes that weren't nearly as big as the F-15's in relation to the size of the plane.

It looks cool, though.

[Druna Skass]

There's probably brakes on the wings too.

[connor99]

This might work for contemporary aircrafts. As for the VF-1 itself, I doubt it! I mean, C'mon, the VF-1 uses a microfusion engine/reactor!. I think everyone would agree that this is too much power for that particular "airbrake".

[buddhafabio]

air brake is to reduce speed by increasing air friction. in real life i am sure it would be larger. but if you look at a vf-1 real good it would not need to be very big. there are lots of things that can be used to slow the plane down. 1st thing i think of is the tail section can raise up and that would do the same function. you also have the doors on the rear landing gears to slow things down. as a matter of fact planes slow down a lot when the landing gears are lowered.

[Isamu Atreides 86]

but its made from OverTechnology. of course it would work, defying most Physics principles...

i had always thought it too small though.

[Zentrandude]

the chest airbrake to slow it down alittle but gerwalk is the real airbrake. stop so fast that the pilot should be flying through the cockpit.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

yes it would. A tomcat and fulcrum's airbrake as well as the airbrake on the falcon are all small in area. And they work so the VF-1 airbrake would work

[David Hingtgen]

It's all about the deployment angle. The orginal F-15's had much smaller airbrakes, that deployed to a more extreme angle. But it caused lots of buffeting and affected the trim a bit. So they redesigned it (Block 15 I think) and almost all other F-15's have the much larger airbrake that deploys to a more shallow angle, to get the same braking without the bad aerodynamic effects. Almost all other jets have smaller brakes that deploy to a more extreme angle--F-14/16/18. The Tornado has a similar situation to the F-15: very large brakes that deploy at a shallow angle.

The king of airbrakes however, is the F-8. It could slow the thing down in a vertical dive. Drag of the airbrake when fully deployed has always looked to me like it is equal to the entire rest of the plane!

So in summary: the VF-1's airbrake is actually pretty normal, maybe a BIT undersized, no matter what angle it deploys at. VF-0 looks to have an improved version, in that assuming it deploys practically straight up to be effective, it has holes in it to alleviate buffeting. F-15 couldn't afford the drag holes would cause, for it had to be FAST.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The VF-1 airbrake looks small for the aircraft's size. But the VF-1 is pretty light for its size too. So there is less mass to slow down.

But with all that OT, the damn bird doesn't need airbrakes! The VF-1 seems to have no AoA limits or whatever, just stand the bird on its tail if you want to slow down while staying in fighter mode or slam the lever to G and fly backwards if you want!

Oh, and I think the primary mission for the VF-1 was space fighting? So reverse thrusters would be deemed more important. The airbrake is probably just an extra unecessary frill put there for style.

Edited June 8, 2004 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Aurel Tristen]

Sure, the VF-1's airbrake works. It is used with various other flying controls and design features to slow the aircraft down. There is the airbrake, spoilers, two-section flaps, ailerons, leading edge slats, the two NPS-1 high-burn thrusters on the sides of the air intake are used as reverse thrusters while in fighter mode... there are there is the sub intake vent overflow/jets operation (mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers), in the animation we see the main intakes actually being used as a reserve engine/thruster (this may have been an animation error however) If all that doesn't slow you down of course you can just throw the legs down. : ) hehe

[Gaijin]

Well, obviously, it's a fictional item. But I was hoping to get some practical insight into its practicality, maybe from David Hingtgen or one of the other avation experts around here.

I know. I was just messin' with ya.

[EganLoo]

there are there is the sub intake vent overflow/jets operation (mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers), in the animation we see the main intakes actually being used as a reserve engine/thruster (this may have been an animation error however) If all that doesn't slow you down of course you can just throw the legs down. : ) hehe

Shoji Kawamori does not say that the sub-air intake "vent overflow/jets operation" is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." This is made-up speculation.

In fact Shoji Kawamori specifically says that two cooling sub-air intake/airframe lift adjustment slits mainly operate in lieu of glove vanes (such as those found on the F-14 Tomcat) by controlling airflow.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...s/variable/vf1/

[Aurel Tristen]

there are there is the sub intake vent overflow/jets operation (mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers), in the animation we see the main intakes actually being used as a reserve engine/thruster (this may have been an animation error however) If all that doesn't slow you down of course you can just throw the legs down. : ) hehe

Shoji Kawamori does not say that the sub-air intake "vent overflow/jets operation" is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." This is made-up speculation.

In fact Shoji Kawamori specifically says that two cooling sub-air intake/airframe lift adjustment slits mainly operate in lieu of glove vanes (such as those found on the F-14 Tomcat) by controlling airflow.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...s/variable/vf1/

I guess it must be a mix of an animation error.... You're saying that one of the greatest Macross dogfight scenes has such a big error? You can see forced air coming out of the sub intakes.

[EganLoo]

there are there is the sub intake vent overflow/jets operation (mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers), in the animation we see the main intakes actually being used as a reserve engine/thruster (this may have been an animation error however) If all that doesn't slow you down of course you can just throw the legs down. : ) hehe

Shoji Kawamori does not say that the sub-air intake "vent overflow/jets operation" is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." This is made-up speculation.

In fact Shoji Kawamori specifically says that two cooling sub-air intake/airframe lift adjustment slits mainly operate in lieu of glove vanes (such as those found on the F-14 Tomcat) by controlling airflow.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...s/variable/vf1/

I guess it must be a mix of an animation error.... You're saying that one of the greatest Macross dogfight scenes has such a big error? You can see forced air coming out of the sub intakes.

The error was not in the animation--the error was in interpreting the animation and assuming it means the sub-air intake is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." As Shoji Kawamori noted, it isn't.

[Aurel Tristen]

Ah, I understand.

[Aurel Tristen]

there are there is the sub intake vent overflow/jets operation (mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers), in the animation we see the main intakes actually being used as a reserve engine/thruster (this may have been an animation error however) If all that doesn't slow you down of course you can just throw the legs down. : ) hehe

Shoji Kawamori does not say that the sub-air intake "vent overflow/jets operation" is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." This is made-up speculation.

In fact Shoji Kawamori specifically says that two cooling sub-air intake/airframe lift adjustment slits mainly operate in lieu of glove vanes (such as those found on the F-14 Tomcat) by controlling airflow.

http://www.anime.net/macross/mecha/united_...s/variable/vf1/

I guess it must be a mix of an animation error.... You're saying that one of the greatest Macross dogfight scenes has such a big error? You can see forced air coming out of the sub intakes.

The error was not in the animation--the error was in interpreting the animation and assuming it means the sub-air intake is "mainly used for Battroid aerial maneuvers together with the shuttered verniers." As Shoji Kawamori noted, it isn't.

What about what appears to be the VF-1 reserving its engines/main engine intakes acting as nozzles in space? Was that an Anime Friend error?

[EganLoo]

What about what appears to be the VF-1 reserving its engines/main engine intakes acting as nozzles in space? Was that an Anime Friend error?

Ever want to make a Macross staff veteran wince? Just mention two words ....

[David Hingtgen]

Now the interesting thing would be if the later VF-1's had the airflow adjustment slots disabled, since all F-14's had their glove vanes disabled, and later ones flat out don't have them. (not worth the weight nor maintenance).

[cambodian tire]

'Just have to go on the record for pointing out that official stats are pure fantasy and although fun to read into, when we do it becomes plain that contradictions arise and we are probably giving it more critical consideration than those who wrote it. The weight statistic realisticaly should be dissregarded, even if the VF-1 were made of plastic with that many joints, actuators, reinforcement, Hydraulics, whatever it would NEVER be lighter than an F-14 smaller or not. The F-14's bulk over the F-15 largely comes from the swing wing geometry, some of the difference is the use of materials more titanium & composites in the F-15, but a majority of it is the swing wing or VG feature - imagine many "swing everything" features of a VF-1! Personaly, and I'm probably going to get alot of flack for this, I think officialy it should be a lead sled, a tank, admittadly heavy - then explain away why it can still fly - be it "over technology" or anti-gravity to negate its weight then fly with convetional flight control surfaces/aerodynamics. Maybe the vernier thrusters would be for overcoming its' still substantial inertia...?

[David Hingtgen]

IMHO, most of the F-14's bulk comes from sheer size, not being VG. Yes, a VG mechanism adds weight. But that is countered by having smaller wings and other benefits, like creating a nice big internal fuel tank inside the mechanism central "box".

"old-school" VG weighs a lot with few benefits. Mainly dual actuators, etc. The F-14 and Tornado changed everything, by doing it right (single screw). F-111 had the mechanism right, but is aerodynamically screwed up. (F-14 is really a "Super F-111"--it's the F-111 done right)

Also, a big chunk of the F-14's weight comes from it being a carrier plane. They've got to be heavier to withstand the stress, as well as their massively beefed up landing gear, etc. Just look at how much weight the land-based YF-17 had to pack on to become the carrier-suitable F/A-18. If you made the F-15's structure/gear strong enough to be carrier based, it'd pack on a few thousand pounds in a hurry. And you'd have to add slats and slotted flaps, for even more weight, with it's ultra-simple wing and all. Great for low-weight and nice USAF bases, bad for carriers.

PS--yes, I totally agree with your main point that the weight figures for Valks are ridiculously low.

[Gammera]

even if the VF-1 were made of plastic with that many joints, actuators, reinforcement, Hydraulics, whatever it would NEVER be lighter than an F-14 smaller or not.

One word : HYPER-STYROFOAM

[mechaninac]

VF-1s and all subsequent variable fighters are composed of unobtanium and bolognium alloys.