Haven't we heard this all before?

[Jolly Rogers]

In Japan, working in anime industry = leeching off your parents

Japanese Anime Companies in Danger of Extinction

Japanese animation companies, particularly those performing subcontracting work, are facing an increasing threat of extinction as studios cut back on their animation budgets and turn to overseas competitors in South Korea and China where labor costs are lower, the Asahi Shimbun reported today (Wednesday). The newspaper pointed out that experienced animators are working for salaries of less than $500 a month and have to depend on parents for support. It quoted one 26-year-old as saying, "Sometimes I want to give up-I never imagined it would be like this." Koichi Murata, president of Oh Productions, which has turned out several hit films employee the "anime" style, told the newspaper: "Unless something is done, Japanese anime will be ruined."

I ran a search and couldn't find the old thread, but a few months ago there was a discussion about this.

Looks like the US is not the only country exporting jobs to a point of severely hurting its own people.

[Angel's Fury]

In Japan, working in anime industry = leeching off your parents

Japanese Anime Companies in Danger of Extinction

Japanese animation companies, particularly those performing subcontracting work, are facing an increasing threat of extinction as studios cut back on their animation budgets and turn to overseas competitors in South Korea and China where labor costs are lower, the Asahi Shimbun reported today (Wednesday). The newspaper pointed out that experienced animators are working for salaries of less than $500 a month and have to depend on parents for support. It quoted one 26-year-old as saying, "Sometimes I want to give up-I never imagined it would be like this." Koichi Murata, president of Oh Productions, which has turned out several hit films employee the "anime" style, told the newspaper: "Unless something is done, Japanese anime will be ruined."

I ran a search and couldn't find the old thread, but a few months ago there was a discussion about this.

Looks like the US is not the only country exporting jobs to a point of severely hurting its own people.

Pretty much. They do it just to stay competitive, but at what cost?

[renegadeleader1]

This is what happens when you over saturate the market with too much anime, too fast. everything looks the same the demand goes down people look else where for new highs and the whole thing dies.

ITS ATARI 2600 TIME!!!!!

[gerwalk25]

This is what happens when you over saturate the market with too much anime, too fast. everything looks the same the demand goes down people look else where for new highs and the whole thing dies.

ITS ATARI 2600 TIME!!!!!

Give me a ColecoVision!

[Dangaioh]

I want my text based RPG with vertex graphics and a 3200 page manual to install the game.

Edited June 3, 2004 by Dangaioh

[Noriko Takaya]

Yeah, this has all been said before, and I am not even worried about it. If the Japanese really start to freak out, they'll stop using those pesky gaijin animators and put their own people back to work. Well, I hope they do...

[JELEINEN]

I think that saying that Japanese animation is going to be ruined is a huge exageration. In betweening has always been a menial labor job and that appears to be what the article is talking about. The US animation companies have been sending their in between work over seas for years now. In fact, back in the 80's, Japan was one of the places it got sent to. Obviously it sucks for the guys who's jobs will be lost, but I don't think it'll really hurt the industry as a whole.

[Radd]

I think that saying that Japanese animation is going to be ruined is a huge exageration. In betweening has always been a menial labor job and that appears to be what the article is talking about. The US animation companies have been sending their in between work over seas for years now. In fact, back in the 80's, Japan was one of the places it got sent to. Obviously it sucks for the guys who's jobs will be lost, but I don't think it'll really hurt the industry as a whole.

I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Look at the American animation industry. It's in ruins. The vast majority of American animators are unemployed. Companies are cutting costs in productions, then those productions flop, so the studios close their doors.

I speak as an unemployed animator with firsthand experience in how this effects animation when I say it will hurt the industry as a whole, and in a very big way.

[Winkle]

I don't think it'll collapse and die off though.

I find anime is a very established part of Japanese culture, and not just as a source of entertainment like it is in North America.

[Noyhauser]

Actually I agree with both radd and winkle. Radd I'm sure you can tell us how the market in north america has changed from classical to CG, but in Japan, Anime is a far more acceptable art form for general population. Look at the surge in manga publication over the last decade, anime feeds off of that completely. Im sure the industry is seeing some financial difficulty, but I can;t see it dying out as it did here at all. I still think classical with CG cell shaded will continue to go for quite some time as the standard.

[Radd]

From those I've talked to online who live in Japan, anime is not as generally accepted as most people think. I think the general believe over here in the States is that anime airs all day long in Japan, with a wide audience of young and old, business men to toddlers, all hand in hand with their love of anime.

The truth is, if my sources are to be believed, that anime is generally looked down upon by most of Japanese society. A relatively small, but loyal group of social outcasts seem to be what is maintaining the bulk of the anime industry in Japan.

Some of my sources that live over there have a generally pessimistic outlook on the future of the industry as a result.

Of course, if anyone on these boards lives in Japan and sees a different story, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Radd]

I should add, I don't think anime will die out in Japan to quite the extent it has in America, but I can easily see the majority of it imploding in on itself, leaving much less of a selection, and most of those being like Doeramon.

[azrael]

I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Look at the American animation industry. It's in ruins. The vast majority of American animators are unemployed. Companies are cutting costs in productions, then those productions flop, so the studios close their doors.

I speak as an unemployed animator with firsthand experience in how this effects animation when I say it will hurt the industry as a whole, and in a very big way.

I think it is an exaggeration in terms of cultural aspects but not an exaggeration in terms of economics. If the trend continues, you will find more animators without jobs. Much like the tech industry bubble bursting, you could relate the situation here.

[Noyhauser]

I don't think Anime is "looked down upon" at all, and is supported by a small group of fanatics. I never said it was widescale, but it definately has a larger following than in north america. What we get here isn't what the Japanese watch at all. Of course dordamon isn't shown or that poorly drawn one with the boy, but stuff like Lupin come to mind.

Also as I alluded to earlier, Manga sales are BOOMING, this I believe is having an effect on the market. I think there will be an implosion of the market, but not a siginficant decrease in titles. Thre will be definately more done in CG as well. It will be interesting to see how it plays out..

Edited June 3, 2004 by Noyhauser

[azrael]

The truth is, if my sources are to be believed, that anime is generally looked down upon by most of Japanese society. A relatively small, but loyal group of social outcasts seem to be what is maintaining the bulk of the anime industry in Japan.

Some of my sources that live over there have a generally pessimistic outlook on the future of the industry as a result.

From my various looks into the anime industry, I would have to agree with that statement. Anime is still just-for-kids. The target audience is still the pre/young-teens. It still fills that range of "for-all-ages" but the target audience of anime has always been for kids. It's much like the sci-fi community. The group maintaining the community is relatively small in comparison to other genres.

As oppose to me making another post:

Also as I alluded to earlier, Manga sales are BOOMING, this I believe is having an effect on the market

But manga/comics isn't anime.

Edited June 3, 2004 by azrael

[KingNor]

Yeah, this has all been said before, and I am not even worried about it. If the Japanese really start to freak out, they'll stop using those pesky gaijin animators and put their own people back to work. Well, I hope they do...

wow, imagine if this had been a white guy talking about blacks....

an animator is an animator dude, if they can do the work they should have the job no mater what the race.

i really wish anime would have caught on a bit better here, especialy with the more mature storylines and long story arcs, i'm not a huge fan of purely episode based shows.

Edited June 3, 2004 by KingNor

[Skull Leader]

If anime culture in Japan goes down with all hands, they will have brought it upon themselves by seeking out cheaper labor in other nations. I would mourn the loss of such a culture, but it sadly seems to be a trend.

[That NOS Guy]

"People never know a tragedy until it happens." -Sarah, Macross Zero

It doesn't matter about race, color, or creed. It's like throwing a steak in front of a vegatarin chef and saying "cook it". Sure he could probably do it, but it'd come out tasting shitty. It's a flavor, it's a culture, and frankly only the Japanese can do it right.

-NOS

Why the hell am I defending the Japanese?

[Jolly Rogers]

I thought anime has been made in Korea for years (the only cels drawn by the Japanese staff are the key frames, thus their cel value), so I think you meant the Koreans have been doing it right for years.

Edited June 3, 2004 by Jolly Rogers

[Renato]

From those I've talked to online who live in Japan, anime is not as generally accepted as most people think. I think the general believe over here in the States is that anime airs all day long in Japan, with a wide audience of young and old, business men to toddlers, all hand in hand with their love of anime.

The truth is, if my sources are to be believed, that anime is generally looked down upon by most of Japanese society. A relatively small, but loyal group of social outcasts seem to be what is maintaining the bulk of the anime industry in Japan.

Some of my sources that live over there have a generally pessimistic outlook on the future of the industry as a result.

Of course, if anyone on these boards lives in Japan and sees a different story, I'd be glad to hear it.

Nah, I agree with that.

Recently the new Appleseed incarnation has been really hyped up, though, so the powers-that-be are obviously making an effort to push it into the mainstream. Too bad it's a piece of crap.

I heard from a fellow gaijin friend a while ago, "If anime is sub-culture even in JAPAN, where the hell is it mainstream??"

Nowheresville, baby.

[Renato]

I find anime is a very established part of Japanese culture, and not just as a source of entertainment like it is in North America.

Then as... what, exactly? A religion?? What is it, if not merely a source of entertainment? Explain, please.

[KingNor]

complete and totall bull, anyone can draw anything if they work enough at it.

its like saying the japanise could never do good oil paintings because all the masters were european.

bull

total racism.. what ever.

long live good anime, rot in hell bad anime and greedy buisness practices.

in the end though, remember that these shows we know and love are really just half hour advertisements for themselves, these things exist to make money and if they don't do that, no one will make them. so its to be expected they look for cheaper and cheaper ways to do buisness.

if they industry runs itself into the ground it might set things back a bit, but if anime is considered true art in the comunity, it'll have a reviveal. kinda... eh.. like.. ..... rotoscope

[F-ZeroOne]

From those I've talked to online who live in Japan, anime is not as generally accepted as most people think. I think the general believe over here in the States is that anime airs all day long in Japan, with a wide audience of young and old, business men to toddlers, all hand in hand with their love of anime.

The truth is, if my sources are to be believed, that anime is generally looked down upon by most of Japanese society. A relatively small, but loyal group of social outcasts seem to be what is maintaining the bulk of the anime industry in Japan.

Some of my sources that live over there have a generally pessimistic outlook on the future of the industry as a result.

Of course, if anyone on these boards lives in Japan and sees a different story, I'd be glad to hear it.

I'd agree that there is a Western perception that anime is a 24-7 thing in Japan; however, I'm not so sure that labelling it as being totally "looked down upon" applies to every anime. For example, Doraemon, and Hayao Miyazaki movies are massive events. These, of course, are probably the exceptions that prove the rule, though...

[Khyron]

i really wish anime would have caught on a bit better here, especialy with the more mature storylines and long story arcs, i'm not a huge fan of purely episode based shows.

Did I miss something. Anime is huge in America right now. Huge sections of video stores are devoted to Anime tapes/DVDs, racks of manga in bookstores like Waldenbooks, some top games are based on anime (Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon), the majority of cartoons on the air now are either anime imports or influenced by anime (Powerpuff Girls, Teen Titans). A Waldenbooks near me even has a section of anime merchandise besides DVDs or books. I don't think anime has ever been more popular here.

[Khyron]

For example, Doraemon, and Hayao Miyazaki movies are massive events.

Considering that Hayao Miyazaki is considered the Walt Disney of Japan, its no wonder that these will get accepted by the general public more than other anime. Besides Shrek, most non-Disney cartoons don't get the vast audience that a Disney production does.

[That NOS Guy]

Did I miss something. Anime is huge in America right now. Huge sections of video stores are devoted to Anime tapes/DVDs, racks of manga in bookstores like Waldenbooks, some top games are based on anime (Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon), the majority of cartoons on the air now are either anime imports or influenced by anime (Powerpuff Girls, Teen Titans). A Waldenbooks near me even has a section of anime merchandise besides DVDs or books. I don't think anime has ever been more popular here.

Oh hells yeah my man, you got it. When 17,000 people attend Otakon, I tend to get a bit "have we gotten closer to mainstream?". I was at Anime North last week, some 4,000+ attended, pretty big for what's now considered a "small" con.

King Nor, it isn't racist, it's just about flavoring. I happen to prefer the rich artistic style of say "Samurai Champloo" or "Do You Remember Love?" which I'm pretty sure have been done by Japanese artists. I think you've somehow crossed "anti-outsourcing" with "racist", you should probably have a working understanding of something before you discuss it ^^

-NOS

The rest of the episode was finished by the Korean animators....

P.S. Bear cannot drive! How can this be?!

[KingNor]

I think you've somehow crossed "anti-outsourcing" with "racist", you should probably have a working understanding of something before you discuss it ^^

sorry i forgot to quote who i was talking too:

If the Japanese really start to freak out, they'll stop using those pesky gaijin animators and put their own people back to work. Well, I hope they do...

no mention of skill is in here, he's simply stating that he wants jobs taken from non japanise and given to others simply because of race... thats what i'm reading anyway.

oh well what ever.

[KingNor]

Oh hells yeah my man, you got it. When 17,000 people attend Otakon, I tend to get a bit "have we gotten closer to mainstream?". I was at Anime North last week, some 4,000+ attended, pretty big for what's now considered a "small" con.

honestly these numbers just dont' impress me this much. Otakon is like the biggest anime event in the US isn't it? 17k? i mean its alot of people but compaired to the nation its nothing.

4k is even more to my point.

maybe my numbers are off, but when the BIGGEST convention pull 17k people, i din't think that really puts it in mainstream. i could be wrong.

[F-ZeroOne]

For example, Doraemon, and Hayao Miyazaki movies are massive events.

Considering that Hayao Miyazaki is considered the Walt Disney of Japan, its no wonder that these will get accepted by the general public more than other anime.

I'll accept that, but I've now got a bit more time to develop my thoughts a bit...!

Regardless of what the Japanese people as a whole think of anime, I think the best expression I can use is that it is part of their culture, and a reasonably big part at that. The actual number of people who buy merchandise, DVDs, etc might be fairly small in comparision but I doubt theres many Japanese that are unaware of anime, even if they don't like it. I will agree that an impression is often given that anime is everywhere in Japan, which doesn't exactly tie up with my own experiences of visiting Tokyo - its common, yes, but not exactly omnipresent!

Perhaps the best comparison I can come up with is football to the English. A visitor (and I think Graham was the one who commented on this) might conclude that the English are football mad, all of us. Its not quite true - I am only reasonably aware of football goings-on because my family are all fans to one degree or another, and the "girlfriend who can't stand it" is a common theme in English humour.

Despite this, there are often letters to newpapers etc. bemoaning the coverage football gets on TV etc. In other words, football is very much a part of English culture, but that doesn't mean it gets total approval by everyone. It doesn't neccessairly mean that football is dying (and indeed, money crisises of one kind or another is something the English game has had in common with anime studios lately!) Even for those of us not interested, its difficult to escape the impact that something like the forthcoming Euro 2004 tournament may have.

[Radd]

i really wish anime would have caught on a bit better here, especialy with the more mature storylines and long story arcs, i'm not a huge fan of purely episode based shows.

Did I miss something. Anime is huge in America right now. Huge sections of video stores are devoted to Anime tapes/DVDs, racks of manga in bookstores like Waldenbooks, some top games are based on anime (Yu Gi Oh, Pokemon), the majority of cartoons on the air now are either anime imports or influenced by anime (Powerpuff Girls, Teen Titans). A Waldenbooks near me even has a section of anime merchandise besides DVDs or books. I don't think anime has ever been more popular here.

The article is about the state of the anime industry in Japan. The rest of the world is still a relatively small market.

[That NOS Guy]

Question, have you ever been to a con?

Take everyone who goes to say Otakon there and say multiply it by 50 to 100 (these people could not make the convention but are still fans none the less).

It's a record if an album sells 50 million worldwide, and then that's considered ultra-mainstream. I never said anime was quite mainstream, but it's sure as hell grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years alone.

[KingNor]

Question, have you ever been to a con?

Take everyone who goes to say Otakon there and say multiply it by 50 to 100 (these people could not make the convention but are still fans none the less).

It's a record if an album sells 50 million worldwide, and then that's considered ultra-mainstream. I never said anime was quite mainstream, but it's sure as hell grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years alone.

Question, have you ever been to a con?

Answer, yes.

Take everyone who goes to say Otakon there and say multiply it by 50 to 100 (these people could not make the convention but are still fans none the less).

multiply by 50-100? where you get those numbers from? sounds high to me.

1,700,000 is a hell of alot of people. but.. lets say for the sake of argument, that it IS that high. that's still only a small % of the population of one of our many large citys.

really i think there just isn't THAT much of a fandom in america for Anime. though it is kinda the fad of the day. i dont' think that many people are "seriously" into it.

I never said anime was quite mainstream, but it's sure as hell grown by leaps and bounds over the past few years alone.

i'll agree its grown at a fenominal rate, staggering really. thats arbitrary however. 10 years ago no one even knew what anime is. i just really don't feel anime has taken hold here at all. i think its a fad at best right now.

don't forget that us here at macrossworld represent a tiny minority of people who dig anime ALOT.

thats basicly my opinion on this.

[JELEINEN]

I don't think it's an exaggeration at all. Look at the American animation industry. It's in ruins. The vast majority of American animators are unemployed. Companies are cutting costs in productions, then those productions flop, so the studios close their doors.

I speak as an unemployed animator with firsthand experience in how this effects animation when I say it will hurt the industry as a whole, and in a very big way.

To be quite honest, I don't really follow or care about the animation industry in the US. Can you give a little more insight into the causes of the problems you see in animation over here and how that compares to what's said in the article? I had noticed that I see fewer US produced cartoons these days, but I had attributed that to changes in viewing habits (kids spending more time at sports and other activities).

I think in the case of Japan, whether for good or ill, it will be exporting to other countries that will help carry the industry through that region's economic downturn. Japan as a whole has recognized that its cultural exports have become a growing source of income. Japanese food, fashions, entertainment, etc. have become very popular world-wide and anime is part of that.

As far as being mainstream, anime can best be compared to comic books in the US (not manga in Japan, which definitely are mainstream). Comic books in the US are primarly made for teens/young adults and really don't have a wide distribution (there are only about a million people in the US who regularly buy comics), but they do have an influence on the culture as a whole.

[Radd]

The creative pool of the animation industry of any country comes from it's foundations. The inbetweeners are where you're going to find your future key animtions, key frame artists, storyboarders, character designers, and directors. Starting from the bottom is where they gain their experience and know-how, working their way up while refining their skills.

The more a country outsources this work, the smaller their pool of talent becomes. Often, the work done overseas and to the lowest bidder isn't as high a quality as work done by higher costing studios. In America it was found that people didn't care about quality, so work quickly got outsourced to Mexico and overseas. Over the years more and more ofthe animation production process has been moving away from domestic talent. The people entering this field and finding employment to boost their experience and hone their skills has been shrinking.

The result is a lower quality product. In Japan I doubt the problem will be as pronounced and as sudden as it has happened in America due to their strong manga base. There is a pool of creative talent to draw from that is much larger than our own comic book industry affords. Still, those working on Manga probably need other jobs to support themselves, and if they can't find a creative job, then they find one that does not allow them time or experience building their creative skills.

Too many years of failing products and the suits, who are often very disconnected from the reality of the creative and consumer based side of things declare idiotic statements like

The 2-D [hand-drawn] business is coming to an end, just like black and white came to an end

They begin to blame you, the consumers, for the failure of their productions, instead of falling standards of quality in the industry.

More than likely people begin to turn to other sources of animation, leaving the domestic industry more and more out in the cold. Before too long after that, the industry collapses in on itself, and pretty soon you have a bitter, unemployed anime studio artist explaining in a thread about how if the same thing happens in Korea, who's animation is currently popular the world over, and who is now outsourcing to Australia, then there will be a bitter unemployed Korean animator explaining to fans of Australian animation about this who, vicious cycle.

[Radd]

http://www.asahi.com/english/arts/TKY200406020134.html