Aircraft VS super thread!

[Nied]

I imagine that Lockheed will try to push the F-35, I think that Japan would want an F-22J.  Eurofighter is gearing up to offer the Typhoon and is working on making some serious concessions to get them to buy it (including indigenous production which I have trouble seeing with either the F-22 or the F-35).  Dasault (Rafale) and Boeing (either some form of F-15K derivative or an F/A-18EJ/FJ) will most likely put in offers as well. 

My money is on either the Raptor or the Typhoon.

378769[/snapback]

Do you think they would offer up the super bug as a replacement for the F-2? I imagine it could take on its role efficiently and possibly do a better job.

378771[/snapback]

Probably but it looks like Japan is looking for one plane to fill the role of the F-2 the F-4EJ and the F-15J. While the Rhino would be a good replacement for the old Rhino and the F-2, it's not the type of performance leap over the F-15 that Japan seems to be looking for. Pretty much the only planes that fill that bill are the Typhoon and to a lesser extent the Raptor (although the indigenous avionics that the Japanese would almost assuredly pack in an F-22J would take care of that).

[Skull Leader]

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photod...N-4287G-008.jpg

Now that is a sobering sight. Never again will the US see that many tomcats flying at the same time. Welcome home, boys!

[kalvasflam]

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photod...N-4287G-008.jpg

Now that is a sobering sight. Never again will the US see that many tomcats flying at the same time. Welcome home, boys!

379056[/snapback]

I wonder where that was taken.... such a nice picture.

As for the superbug vs F2 argument. What does the superbug bring that the F2 doesn't already offer in terms of capabilities.

[David Hingtgen]

I like this pic better, it's way closer, you can tell the individual markings:

http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/pho...N-1331S-167.jpg

The upper-left 4 are the showbirds. Upper left is VF-31 CAG, upper right is VF-213 CAG, lower left is VF-213 CO, and lower right is VF-31 CO. Overall, VF-31's planes are leading VF-213.

[Skull Leader]

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photod...N-4287G-008.jpg

Now that is a sobering sight. Never again will the US see that many tomcats flying at the same time. Welcome home, boys!

379056[/snapback]

I wonder where that was taken.... such a nice picture.

As for the superbug vs F2 argument. What does the superbug bring that the F2 doesn't already offer in terms of capabilities.

379106[/snapback]

It was taken by someone standing on top of a hangar (looks to be somewhere on the west end, by the edge of Runway 5 right, towards where the VF-101 hangar WAS) at NAS Oceana.

as for your other question:

What the superbug brings that the Viper Zero does not is a more balanced radar system... arguably one of the best and most advanced the world has known (on par with what the F-16CJ is using) The F-2A/B Viper Zero has a wicked-badass radar/Target aquisition system for maritime defense. The whole radar was basically built around their anti-ship missiles. However, it's bugger-all when it comes to any other mode. In terms of performance, the Viper Zero is to the Viper as the Super Hornet is to the legacy hornet. The problem is, with Japanese restrictions on what the JASDF can and cannot carry on their jets, the F-2 is not wired to use any kind of smart bomb (it uses the same rails as it's US counterparts, so it could CARRY them, but it couldn't launch them)

If the F-2A/B were allowed to carry smart-bomb weaponry and had the same radar as it's smaller US brother, it would be a far more wicked machine than the Super Hornet. It's government restrictions that keep the F-2 from reaching it's full potential.

That said, the Japanese government paid an obscene amount of money for those Viper Zeros. You can bet they'll use them until they've squeezed ever last ounce of use out of them. They have three squadrons using them with plans to convert a fourth (I'm guessing it will be the 8th Hikotai, since their F-4EJ Kais are tasked with Maritime defense primarily)

It's also worth noting that *some* of those F-4EJ Kais were built in the very early 1980s (read: 1980-82), and are very well maintained aircraft. They've constantly received new updates both in software and weapons capability (specific to the JASDF's needs, of course... primarily in anti-ship missiles). They are as lethal and wicked as just about any other front-line fighter today (barring the F-22A and maybe the Typhoon), so it's not as if they're ragged and worn down airplanes.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Skull Leader

[buddhafabio]

The only thing i can think of off the bat is the hornet can lose 1 engine and still fly.

[Skull Leader]

The only thing i can think of off the bat is the hornet can lose 1 engine and still fly.

379174[/snapback]

and god help it if it's carrying a load. A Super Hornet can only just barely break Mach 1 when it's carrying stuff under the wings.

[Noyhauser]

I imagine that Lockheed will try to push the F-35, I think that Japan would want an F-22J.  Eurofighter is gearing up to offer the Typhoon and is working on making some serious concessions to get them to buy it (including indigenous production which I have trouble seeing with either the F-22 or the F-35).  Dasault (Rafale) and Boeing (either some form of F-15K derivative or an F/A-18EJ/FJ) will most likely put in offers as well. 

My money is on either the Raptor or the Typhoon.

378769[/snapback]

I don't think the Eurofighter has a chance. There is no appreciable domestic offests for going with the Europeans. There is little industry co-operation between Japan and Europe, in comparison to the massive relationship between Japan and the US.

Also the nature of Japanese security policy and its thinkers almost assures that it will buy an American built machine rather than a European one. Its just another way Japanese policy makers try to align with the US.

My guess is that the Japanese won't have to worry about an ITAR waiver as the Brits had to for a F-35. Much of the British problems with the F-35 isn't really their fault, its politically motivated and related to France and the War in Iraq. Japan's cooperation in Iraq, its long history between Boeing and Japanese companies, will count for something in the end. And in any event would take a severely downgraded F-22 and upgrade it to their standards.

[kalvasflam]

What the superbug brings that the Viper Zero does not is a more balanced radar system... arguably one of the best and most advanced the world has known (on par with what the F-16CJ is using) The F-2A/B Viper Zero has a wicked-badass radar/Target aquisition system for maritime defense. The whole radar was basically built around their anti-ship missiles. However, it's bugger-all when it comes to any other mode. In terms of performance, the Viper Zero is to the Viper as the Super Hornet is to the legacy hornet. The problem is, with Japanese restrictions on what the JASDF can and cannot carry on their jets, the F-2 is not wired to use any kind of smart bomb (it uses the same rails as it's US counterparts, so it could CARRY them, but it couldn't launch them)

If the F-2A/B were allowed to carry smart-bomb weaponry and had the same radar as it's smaller US brother, it would be a far more wicked machine than the Super Hornet. It's government restrictions that keep the F-2 from reaching it's full potential.

That said, the Japanese government paid an obscene amount of money for those Viper Zeros. You can bet they'll use them until they've squeezed ever last ounce of use out of them. They have three squadrons using them with plans to convert a fourth (I'm guessing it will be the 8th Hikotai, since their F-4EJ Kais are tasked with Maritime defense primarily)

It's also worth noting that *some* of those F-4EJ Kais were built in the very early 1980s (read: 1980-82), and are very well maintained aircraft. They've constantly received new updates both in software and weapons capability (specific to the JASDF's needs, of course... primarily in anti-ship missiles). They are as lethal and wicked as just about any other front-line fighter today (barring the F-22A and maybe the Typhoon), so it's not as if they're ragged and worn down airplanes.

379169[/snapback]

Thanks for the detailed information. Very nice to read about some of this stuff. This of course lead too other questions. The anti-ship missile the F-2 carries, is it the Harpoon? That would be neat. As for the smart ordinance, I wonder how much alterations will be needed to use those. From what you've said, it doesn't seem like too much changes will be required. Would it be mainly software or are we talking lots of hardware changes.

The information on the F-4EJs were also very interesting. I almost thought they would be used in a WW function much as the USAF converted a majority of its Phantoms to that role after the introduction of -15s and -16s. But then it occurred to me that over the water, any HARM type missiles would just be supplanted by anti-ship missiles anyway.

The smart weapons part is pretty interesting because given the geography, I think Japan has two primary needs. Air defence, and maritime capabilities. Air defence is nicely filled by the -15s, and from our information, it sounds like F-2s are great anti-ship types. It would match the role their constitution provides, which is primarily defensive. Besides, in this day and age, no one really has any ability to invade an island country. There isn't nearly enough amphibious type ships to do the job.

Thanks for the interesting update.

[Skull Leader]

The armament concerns revolve around Japan's non-aggression philosophy. Since they don't want the Self Defense Force to be seen in a TOO aggressive light, they stay away from tactical smart bombs. This is ironic because they have Japanese versions of the major air to air missiles used by the US (Sparrows, Sidewinders, AMRAAMs) They also don't allow their aircraft to refuel in mid-air (although most of their jets have that capability, they're not trained in it's use) for the same reasons. Their anti-shipping missiles aren't harpoons, but closer to the sea-eagles used by the British on their Tornado GR.1Bs. So far as I've heard, they're really effective.

If the F-2 were packing the same kind of radar as our F-16s, it would be as simple as inserting the proper software to let them carry smart bombs. As I don't know much about the radar/fire control system used by the F-2 (in regards to it's similarities), I don't know how easy it would be to modify or add on to. One would think they would plan for the worst and have the means to install it if need be, but you can never tell.

I don't know that the Japanese have ever considered a "wild weasel" role for their phantoms (that may fall under their "too aggressive" arguement, not sure). I don't even know what kind of anti-radiation missiles they pack these days (if any, and I don't know if they do).

[Coota0]

The only thing i can think of off the bat is the hornet can lose 1 engine and still fly.

379174[/snapback]

and god help it if it's carrying a load. A Super Hornet can only just barely break Mach 1 when it's carrying stuff under the wings.

379177[/snapback]

It doesn't matter what you're flying, you lose an engine you're dropping your load.

Edited March 11, 2006 by Coota0

[Coota0]

Thanks for the detailed information.  Very nice to read about some of this stuff.  This of course lead too other questions.  The anti-ship missile the F-2 carries, is it the Harpoon?  That would be neat.  As for the smart ordinance, I wonder how much alterations will be needed to use those.  From what you've said, it doesn't seem like too much changes will be required.  Would it be mainly software or are we talking lots of hardware changes.

379205[/snapback]

To update to LGBs would be easy. All you need the aircaft to do is get the bomb to the target, once there the target can be designated from the ground, or I've read accounts of Phantom backseaters designating with hand sets from the air, one aircraft would orbit and designate while the others bombed.

[kalvasflam]

Thanks for the detailed information.  Very nice to read about some of this stuff.  This of course lead too other questions.  The anti-ship missile the F-2 carries, is it the Harpoon?  That would be neat.  As for the smart ordinance, I wonder how much alterations will be needed to use those.  From what you've said, it doesn't seem like too much changes will be required.  Would it be mainly software or are we talking lots of hardware changes.

379205[/snapback]

To update to LGBs would be easy. All you need the aircaft to do is get the bomb to the target, once there the target can be designated from the ground, or I've read accounts of Phantom backseaters designating with hand sets from the air, one aircraft would orbit and designate while the others bombed.

379340[/snapback]

That's not necessarily true, you'll need the proper ejector racks for the bombs. There are aerodynamic considerations or so I've heard on putting bombs onto planes. Then there are updates in software so you can properly drop these weapons. It's not that easy. Remember for LGB need to be launched in the proper direction in the proper way. It's not that easy.

Skull leader...

So, they use the Sea Eagle. Good ASM. Anti-radiation missiles don't make that much sense anyway. For Japan, most of their offensive would be based on maritime requirements. Anti-ship missiles fits better than LGB. LGB means you'd have to get close, and these days, SAMs preclude attack aircraft from getting that close. I wonder though if they have weapons like Maverick and equivalents like SLAMs. Those would be useful, especially consider SLAM is based on the Harpoon airframe.

[Apollo Leader]

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photod...N-4287G-008.jpg

Now that is a sobering sight. Never again will the US see that many tomcats flying at the same time. Welcome home, boys!

379056[/snapback]

Bittersweet sight indeed. So how long will it be now until all the Tomcats are gone?

[Skull Leader]

http://www.news.navy.mil/management/photod...N-4287G-008.jpg

Now that is a sobering sight. Never again will the US see that many tomcats flying at the same time. Welcome home, boys!

379056[/snapback]

Bittersweet sight indeed. So how long will it be now until all the Tomcats are gone?

379400[/snapback]

Richard,

VF-213 have already closed the lids on their Tomcats for good (as of yesterday). They'll start their Super Hornet transition in April I believe. VF-31 still has a stateside readiness deployment ("just in case") planned for the summer. They'll participate in the Tomcat Sunset ceremony in September and begin their transition in October. So... September is it. (Unless some unforseen conflict arises)

[Skull Leader]

Skull leader...

So, they use the Sea Eagle.  Good ASM.  Anti-radiation missiles don't make that much sense anyway.  For Japan, most of their offensive would be based on maritime requirements.  Anti-ship missiles fits better than LGB.  LGB means you'd have to get close, and these days, SAMs preclude attack aircraft from getting that close.  I wonder though if they have weapons like Maverick and equivalents like SLAMs.  Those would be useful, especially consider SLAM is based on the Harpoon airframe.

379367[/snapback]

They're *similar* to the Sea Eagles, but the fins are a little different. I wouldn't call them an exact duplicate, I only meant to imply that they look more like sea eagles than harpoons.

They might have some mavericks of some sort. I *think* I've seen a picture or two of F-4EJs carrying some mavericks. Then again, I might be wrong.

[Mislovrit]

I don't think the Eurofighter has a chance. There is no appreciable domestic offests for going with the Europeans. There is little industry co-operation between Japan and Europe, in comparison to the massive relationship between Japan and the US.

There is one exception, the Type 90 Tank which have been co-developed by Krauss-Maffei (Leo II tank.)

[Noyhauser]

I don't think the Eurofighter has a chance. There is no appreciable domestic offests for going with the Europeans. There is little industry co-operation between Japan and Europe, in comparison to the massive relationship between Japan and the US.

There is one exception, the Type 90 Tank which have been co-developed by Krauss-Maffei (Leo II tank.)

379436[/snapback]

Oh I'm sure there are quite a few... but its comparatively little compared to the cooperation that exists between the US, especially in the Aerospace industry.

[Nied]

I don't think the Eurofighter has a chance. There is no appreciable domestic offests for going with the Europeans. There is little industry co-operation between Japan and Europe, in comparison to the massive relationship between Japan and the US.

Also the nature of Japanese security policy and its thinkers almost assures that it will buy an American built machine rather than a European one. Its just another way Japanese policy makers  try to align with the US.

My guess is that the Japanese won't have to worry about an ITAR waiver as the Brits had to for a F-35. Much of the British problems with the F-35 isn't really their fault, its politically motivated and related to France and the War in Iraq. Japan's cooperation in Iraq, its long history between Boeing and Japanese companies, will count for something in the end. And in any event would take a severely downgraded F-22 and upgrade it to their standards.

379198[/snapback]

Normally I'd agree but lately the US's policy on technology transfer seems to consist of two words F*ck and Off. Japan is a close ally yes but so is the UK and we're seeing how great a deal they're getting on tech transfer. With the Eurofighter consortium working to bend over backwards on tech transfer issues, and the US essentially flipping the bird at whoever wants to buy our newest planes I'd wager that the Typhoon has a much better chance than it normally would. I hope that institutional momentum and a Japanese willingness to spend money on the best of the best in fighter planes will drag the Raptor over the finish line, but the Typhoon looks like a better deal right now so I'm not willing to rule out the idea of seeing Eurofighters with rising suns on the wings.

[Noyhauser]

I don't think the Eurofighter has a chance. There is no appreciable domestic offests for going with the Europeans. There is little industry co-operation between Japan and Europe, in comparison to the massive relationship between Japan and the US.

Also the nature of Japanese security policy and its thinkers almost assures that it will buy an American built machine rather than a European one. Its just another way Japanese policy makers  try to align with the US.

My guess is that the Japanese won't have to worry about an ITAR waiver as the Brits had to for a F-35. Much of the British problems with the F-35 isn't really their fault, its politically motivated and related to France and the War in Iraq. Japan's cooperation in Iraq, its long history between Boeing and Japanese companies, will count for something in the end. And in any event would take a severely downgraded F-22 and upgrade it to their standards.

379198[/snapback]

Normally I'd agree but lately the US's policy on technology transfer seems to consist of two words F*ck and Off. Japan is a close ally yes but so is the UK and we're seeing how great a deal they're getting on tech transfer. With the Eurofighter consortium working to bend over backwards on tech transfer issues, and the US essentially flipping the bird at whoever wants to buy our newest planes I'd wager that the Typhoon has a much better chance than it normally would. I hope that institutional momentum and a Japanese willingness to spend money on the best of the best in fighter planes will drag the Raptor over the finish line, but the Typhoon looks like a better deal right now so I'm not willing to rule out the idea of seeing Eurofighters with rising suns on the wings.

379954[/snapback]

As I noted, most of the main issues with technology transfers have been with Europe, or countries that have serious military exports (Israel). Its been highly politicized in nature, and thats' certainly been the main culprit in most of these cases. The problem with the UK's ITAR waiver was because BAE's collaboration with French companies, and its part ownership of EADS. In some way the UK got shafted because of France, rather than anything it did itself.

Since the Japanese aircraft industry is mostly paired off with US Companies, that problem is allieviated, as is the fact that Japan's only and main security agreement is with the US. The Japanese have already made moves to purchase the plane, while nothing has been heard about the EF-2000.

Examining the historic record Japanese procurement decisions... this would be the order of preference:

F-22J

F-3 (Partnership to build a indigenous fighter with the US)

F-3 (Partnership to build a indigenous fighter with the EU)

Eurofighter.

The Eurofighter could move up a notch or two if it gave the JSDF the deal of the century, which its unlikely to do. This has nothing to do with the nature of which fighter is better, but more to do with the national security policy of Japan, which would prefer to be closely linked with the US or able to produce something indigenously. The M-90 tank costs Japan 7~9 million dollars a piece, instead of 2 million for a M-1... thats just because Japan wanted the ability to produce them itself.

[Zentrandude]

Remember for LGB need to be launched in the proper direction in the proper way.  It's not that easy.

In military terms. Make sure the target is infront of you and your altitude is greater than 0 before you drop it.

[Mislovrit]

The Eurofighter could move up a notch or two if it gave the JSDF the deal of the century, which its unlikely to do.

Is the EU willing to let the Japanese have just a license build the Eurofighters?

This has nothing to do with the nature of which fighter is better but more to do with the national security policy of Japan, which would prefer to be closely linked with the US or able to produce something indigenously.

It is U.S. policy to stay closely linked with Japan on thier national security.

The M-90 tank costs Japan 7~9 million dollars a piece,

Correction it is called Type 90 not the M-90. seconded they're 10+ million a copy due to the non-export law the Govt have in place and the low production run (comnpared to the Abrams, Leo IIs, and various Russian tanks.)

instead of 2 million for a M-1...

U.S. Govt is paying around 4-6 million to build new and rebuild heavily damaged Abrams. 1-2 million is the average cost of a surplus Leo 2A4/5 tank and 3-5 million for a new Leo 2A6 tank.

thats just because Japan wanted the ability to produce them itself.

Well worth the cost and hassle being independent of another country for military hardware.

[Noyhauser]

Is the EU willing to let the Japanese have just a license build the Eurofighters?

Well I don't know thats why I said that may be an option. I still think thats quite unlikely in any case.

It is U.S. policy to stay closely linked with Japan on thier national security.

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Correction it is called Type 90 not the M-90.

Down to typos are we now?

I accidentally copied a typo when reading an International Institute of Strategic Studies Adelphi Paper, "Japan's Re-emergence as a Normal Military power" I was writing it as I was basically out of the door of my office (and even then I thought something was wrong, I've built a Type-90 as a model), but if the IISS makes one once in awhile, I think I'm excused for once.

. seconded they're 10+ million a copy due to the non-export law the Govt have in place and the low production run (comnpared to the Abrams, Leo IIs, and various Russian tanks.) U.S. Govt is paying around 4-6 million to build new and rebuild heavily damaged Abrams. 1-2 million is the average cost of a surplus Leo 2A4/5 tank and 3-5 million for a new Leo 2A6 tank.

The figures I quoted are from Pg 52 a 1993 Rand Corporation Study: Of Toyotas and Tanks, where the figures were 2.2 Million for a M-1. These were some of the most reliable figures I had from a official comparative analysis, so I used them instead of utilizing rounded numbers as you did. The point was a comparative example showing that Japan has been willing to spend far more just to retain its defence industrial base, to the extent that even cheaper weapons systems could be purchased at far less cost. It did this quite well. Its relevant to show that if the Japanese considerations in mind that are fundamentally different from other states, which you didn't dispell at all.

Good job on nitpicking about nothing.

Well worth the cost and hassle being independent of another country for military hardware.

Worth 3.2 times the cost? Thats a very foolish statement to make. Most states would balk at such an inflation, even with a complete domestic offset and security concerns. Switzerland, a true "neutral state" purchases military equipment from its neighbours and other countries. India, a self professed non aligned state, spent an estimated 4 million a piece on an indigenous Tank, the Arjun. But, when production wasn't going as planned bought T-90s for an estimated 2.45 Million each. So even neutral states don't think its "well worth the cost."

[Mislovrit]

The figures I quoted are from Pg 52 a 1993 Rand Corporation Study: Of Toyotas and Tanks, where the figures were 2.2 Million for a M-1.

2.2 mil sounds right for a M1 slick or a M1A1. For a 2004-6 M1A1AIM, M1A2SEP, and M1A1D Abrams pricetag is around 4-6 million a copy.

The point was a comparative example showing that Japan has been willing to spend far more just to retain its defence industrial base, to the extent that even cheaper weapons systems could be purchased at far less cost. It did this quite well. Its relevant to show that if the Japanese considerations in mind that are fundamentally different from other states, which you didn't dispell at all.

So in other words you like everybody to buy German or Russian? Cause as it is hardly anybody is buying the LeClerc (France), the Challenger II (U.K.), M1A2SEP (U.S.), and nobody is buying the Ariete (Italy), Merkeva 3/4 (Isreal), and K1A1 (ROK).

[Phalanx]

Hey guys, you wanna see something that will blow your mind? I don't know you guys have mentioned this on the thread since there's too many pages to check but scope these pics out of the Chinese J-14 stealth fighter. I also don't know for sure if this fighter is real but if it is, China might be the second country to master stealth technology.

http://bbsimages.military.china.com/1011/2005/11/16/820.jpg

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachmen...chmentid=104035

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7241/hoax5ng.jpg

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread119514/pg1

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50527

However, it does look like a stealthy version of the MIG-1.44

Edited March 14, 2006 by Phalanx

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Hey guys, you wanna see something that will blow your mind? I don't know you guys have mentioned this on the thread since there's too many pages to check but  scope these pics out of the Chinese J-14 stealth fighter. I also don't know for sure if this fighter is real but if it is, China might be the second country to master stealth technology.  

http://bbsimages.military.china.com/1011/2005/11/16/820.jpg

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachmen...chmentid=104035

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7241/hoax5ng.jpg

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread119514/pg1

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50527

However, it does look like a stealthy version of the MIG-1.44

380170[/snapback]

The first pic is a photoshop of a computer game fighter. X-02 I think.

[Phyrox]

Hmm, that didn't really blow my mind. It is no secret that China has been working on a next generation fighter to include stealth and all that stuff.

The first image looks a bit dodgy, but even if it's real all it is showing is an early prototype.

Thanks for the images though, but not really mind-blowing like you promised.

[Lindem Herz]

Those fellas at the Key Publishing Aviation Forums have already debunked this thing. China probably is developing a stealth fighter, but this is only CG.

However, if you want something kinda revolutionary the Chinese may be looking - or buying - into, take a look at this.

Plasma Stealth Technology

A Russian thingy (sucks that they are too damn broke to do anything with the stuff they come up with) that might allow any plane, regardless of shape, to go unnoticed on radar. Of course, the plane will light up like a flare, but nobody is perfect.

Edited March 14, 2006 by Lindem Herz

[Nied]

As I noted, most of the main issues with technology transfers have been with Europe, or countries that have serious military exports (Israel). Its been highly politicized in nature, and thats' certainly been the main culprit in most of these cases. The problem with the UK's ITAR waiver was because BAE's collaboration with French companies, and its part ownership of EADS. In some way the UK got shafted because of France, rather than anything it did itself.

Since the Japanese aircraft industry is mostly paired off with US Companies, that problem is allieviated, as is the fact that Japan's only and main security agreement is with the US. The Japanese have already made moves to purchase the plane, while nothing has been heard about the EF-2000.

Examining the historic record Japanese procurement decisions... this would be the order of preference:

F-22J

F-3 (Partnership to build a indigenous fighter with the US)

F-3 (Partnership to build a indigenous fighter with the EU)

Eurofighter.

The Eurofighter could move up a notch or two if it gave the JSDF the deal of the century, which its unlikely to do. This has nothing to do with the nature of which fighter is better, but more to do with the national security policy of Japan, which would prefer to be closely linked with the US or able to produce something indigenously. The M-90 tank costs Japan 7~9 million dollars a piece, instead of 2 million for a M-1... thats just because Japan wanted the ability to produce them itself.

379988[/snapback]

Like I said normally I'd agree with you but for the fact that

1). The very concept of selling the F-22 is being questioned based on security issues never mind the type of indigineous manufacture deal that the Japanese would most likely demand.

2). The Eurofighter consortium is offering one hell of a sweet deal that includes full manufacturing rights, add that to the Typhoons more mature A2G ability compared to the F-22 (remember Japan wants to replace both it's F-15s and F-4s) and you've got one heck of an offering. In short one pretty close to the deal of the century you mentioned.

[Zentrandude]

Hey guys, you wanna see something that will blow your mind? I don't know you guys have mentioned this on the thread since there's too many pages to check but  scope these pics out of the Chinese J-14 stealth fighter. I also don't know for sure if this fighter is real but if it is, China might be the second country to master stealth technology.  

http://bbsimages.military.china.com/1011/2005/11/16/820.jpg

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachmen...chmentid=104035

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7241/hoax5ng.jpg

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread119514/pg1

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50527

However, it does look like a stealthy version of the MIG-1.44

380170[/snapback]

The first pic is a photoshop of a computer game fighter. X-02 I think.

380176[/snapback]

I think its from a bad b-movie. I can't remember the name but it was realy weird, all it was about is a race with jets.

[kalvasflam]

What is the current operational status of the Typhoon?

I'm kind of curious about the European defense requirements, since the Typhoon is supposed to be for both the Brits and the Germans, I wonder how many units they'll be buying eventually.

[Nied]

What is the current operational status of the Typhoon?

I'm kind of curious about the European defense requirements, since the Typhoon is supposed to be for both the Brits and the Germans, I wonder how many units they'll be buying eventually.

380348[/snapback]

I beilieve that the RAF has declared IOC and are wroking up squadrons right now. I think I even have a hazy memory of them declaring one squadron ready for combat even.

[Skull Leader]

What is the current operational status of the Typhoon?

I'm kind of curious about the European defense requirements, since the Typhoon is supposed to be for both the Brits and the Germans, I wonder how many units they'll be buying eventually.

380348[/snapback]

I beilieve that the RAF has declared IOC and are wroking up squadrons right now. I think I even have a hazy memory of them declaring one squadron ready for combat even.

380467[/snapback]

Yes, I can't remember the squadron, but it's one of them stationed at RAF Coningsby. It's not just IOCed, but combat-ready.

[David Hingtgen]

Diecast time again. Forces of Valor's new VF-154 F-14A:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~ak2k-wd/f-14.html

Looks really nice, almost certainly the best diecast F-14 out there. Panel lines are rather deeply engraved and inked though, but not nearly like earlier FoV stuff was.

Now just to wait for Witty's VF-213 F-14D and see what they do...

[Knight26]

Hey guys, now that I am over several illnesses, trust me you don't want to know, i will start my daily bike ride around base again and will take plenty of pics. So keep an eye out starting next week, if there are any requests please let me know. I can already hear some of you salivating, lol.