Aircraft VS super thread!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It is more survivable than the eagle though. I mean the defense on that thing and stealth penetration ability coould work. But I think an RFB YF-23 or a FB-22 would be more better suited.

BTW guys. Just wondering. Okay so the F-100 was a super sabre and could go supersonic unlike the F-86. But was it really all that better? As an interceptor I say yes, but as a fighter, .......Well yea thats why I asked lol.

THe matchbox F-100s are really tempting.....appealing for some reason though I am not a fan of those "cut off nose" intakes. Cept on the 'sader!

And lets do a doomed prototype debate

F-108 Rapier vs A-12

Both very sleek and imposing looking. Awe inspiring. Who WOULDN'T want a model of a armed blackbird relative?!!

Also

Navy Fury(forgot numerical designation) vs F-86

F-4E vs Lightning

And I also wonder......does the MIG-29M have ANY advantage over the SU-30MKI? I know the MIG-29K has more capability and better performance than the SU-33....

[F-ZeroOne]

F-4E vs Lightning

The F-4E probably has most of the advantage - long range missiles, relatively powerful radar, two seats, etc. with one exception - the Lightning would probably be able to outrun the Phantom at will (one pilot reckoned that the Lightning, in clean configuration, could actually show an early F-15 a thing or two about acceleration...!)

Of course, once its done so, the Lightning would fall out the sky anyway, because it would be out of fuel (always the Lightnings major shortcoming), but the Phantom pilot might not have seen it for dust...!

(also, the Phantom would have to be careful up close - Sparrows weren't exactly wonderful close combat missiles, and the Lightnings Firestreak missiles actually had a limited all aspect capability, some time before the Phantoms Sidewinders would have done... )

[David Hingtgen]

The comparison that is always made is F-100 vs F-8. Same engine, same role, same time. And the F-8 kicked its butt, hard, in every category. Thus, the F-100 wasn't that good, since with the same knowledge, materials, engine, etc the F-8 did a much better job. All while carrying a few extra thousand pounds to make it carrier-capable! (mainly the massive landing gear)

That could really be considered a "Vought vs North American" contest---give two teams the same goal, same materials, etc---and see who makes the better plane.

PS--if you like the Matchbox F-100, get it. For the price, Matchbox 1/72 planes are nice.

Edited March 25, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Very interesting. Seems like the super sabre was truly better for strike than it was for its intended role. I will say though, it did make an awesome looking thuinderbird!!!Hopefully matchbox makes one in those liveries.

David which matchbox ones do you have besides the F-104? How would you rate the others? I RARELY put the gear on my dragons to the flush no gear matchboxes are very appealing for the price. Know of any future releases? I would love to get a navy phantom and a thud, scooter and super sader if they make one(hopefully).

Lightnings have got to be one of the weirdest looking interceptors I have ever seen. I just cannot see the beauty in them. Of course things can change, I used to think the A-6 was ballsugly until I saw it more and more on discovery channel., Then of course watching the Navy wings episode on it and "Flight of the Intruder"(yea i know but if you look and watch it not expecting much,....you already know its entertaining and TONS better than that stealth movie coming out....no ,matter how unrealistic FOTI was).

Topgun was undoubteddly the more popular Paramount/Grumman Iron works movie. But which one was more accurate? I tend to think FOTI might have the edge in this one. Incorporating the A-6B on "ironhand" missions really made me happy.

[F-ZeroOne]

Lightnings have got to be one of the weirdest looking interceptors I have ever seen. I just cannot see the beauty in them. Of course things can change, I used to think the A-6 was ballsugly until I saw it more and more on discovery channel.,

The Lightning was a product of the 50s UK aviation industry. They didn't know how to make an ugly aircraft then; designers in Britain who made ugly aircraft were quietly taken away and shot... [1]

I think you might find it ugly partly because you're probably more familar with the later variants, which had all sorts of bumps and things added (mostly to try and improve its terrible fuel economy); if you see early Lightnings from the 50s, you see very clean, very smooth aircraft.

Granted, the radome/nose intake and over-and-under engine mountings do make for an unusual configuration.

[1] Okay, Fairey Gannet excepted. Presumably the design team for that one sneaked away when the shooters weren't looking...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It's mainly the wings and the fishbed like nose intake that does it for me. Those 2 things rarely appeal to me, and till this day I just cannot stomach MIG-21s. I think 23/29s aremuch more beautiful. They knickname the Fishbed the russian hotrod of the 60s....but man to me it just looks like crap. It serves its purpose im sure, im not judging its aerodynamic design, but aesthetically....ugh.

I do like the somewhat small cockpit of the lightning in comparison to its fat fuesealage though. Just seems interesting. LIke your sitting in a tank or something.

[hellohikaru]

haha! More fodder stuff

Fury vs F-86 ?

Depends on what versions you wanna compare. The FJ-1 had straight wings like the Panther and was definitely inferior to the land based Sabres. FJ-4 was widely regarded as best Fury/Sabre out there. Basically the navy was satisfied with the Cougar and Fury were plagued with development problems.

F-108 Rapier vs F-12A

Since the F-108 never made past the mock-up stage we can only speculate on it. North American in fact continued development of the Rapier into the early 60s well after the AF canned it. The last configuration looked something like a Avro Arrow but with cranked delta wings like the F-16XL.

Perfomance wise the F-12 was likely faster, fly higher and have greater endurance and more payload(4 vs 3 Falcons). The F-108 was probably cheaper to operate and more 'agile'.

F-4E vs Lightning

I actually liked the Lightning alot. It looked like a powerful brute who can take on any russian bomber of that time. Basically the Lightning was a pilots airplane. I heard it was a joy to fly and using the right tactics could beat the Bitburg F-15s in equal dogfights and definitely kicked the Tornado F3 straight on the ass. But it also had the a cockpit of very high workload, unrealible missiles and lack of range. The thing actually carried its drop tanks on top of its wings. Might have been hairy to jettison them in flight.

MiG-29M could have been the ultimate Fulcrum short of the completely different aircraft in the MiG-33(the one i posted a drawing of). Too bad Mikoyan didn't have the resources to developed it further and the internal struggle with its new parent company wanting to concentrate on upgrades for the older stocks of planes.

Give it a fully integrated avionic and weapon delivery system and it will match an early model F-18C.

a bit out of topic but have you guys seen the show called the marine version of baywatch called "Pensacola" ?

This show sucks even more than Supercarrier did in the 1980s. So we have a marine squadron of only 4 amigos and their commander likes to order the navy around. F-18 shots recycle over and over again. And the base they show the Hornets getting airbourne doesn't look much like Pensacola to me.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Heh I saw that. Man JAG is horrible with the paramount pics recycled stock, and Pensacola did not last that long. Pensacola I thought would be cool but it was stale, something dramatic would happena nd the character reactions were juse like "oh this sucks".

For the sake of comparison

Lightning vs F-8.

Also it seems that motormax has released a 1/48 F-14. Pics @badcataviation.com I know their q1/48 WWII birds had folding gear, but what about this tomcat?

[David Hingtgen]

F-12 would have had vastly greater endurance than the F-108. F-108 had like 10 mins max at Mach 3 (which is actually a lot as supersonic interceptors go). Blackbirds etc CRUISE at Mach 3...

AFAIK, most Mach 2+ fighters can only go max speed for less than 10 minutes (usually more like 5), mainly as a result of afterburner fuel usage, secondarily for heating effects on the aircraft.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

http://badcataviation.com/fto1bymo.html

And here she is boys!! The new motormax 1/48 F-14. I am very anxious to know more about this., Any of you see it before or buy it? Does it have retractable gear? Can it be bought in actual stores rather than online?

[Mislovrit]

a bit out of topic but have you guys seen the show called the marine version of baywatch called "Pensacola" ?

I think I've seen about half a season of it.

[Coota0]

a bit out of topic but have you guys seen the show called the marine version of baywatch called "Pensacola" ?

This show sucks even more than Supercarrier did in the 1980s. So we have a marine squadron of only 4 amigos and their commander likes to order the navy around. F-18 shots recycle over and over again. And the base they show the Hornets getting airbourne doesn't look much like Pensacola to me.

It was shot at Miramar.

I liked it (well not the first season), there were F/A-18s every week. JAG doesn't show much of anything operational anymore, but if you watch the reruns of the first and second season on USA they're much better episodes, lots of flying and lots of action, very little to no courtroom.

[hellohikaru]

Time for some Russian naval jets.

Kuznetsov hangar deck crowded up with Su-27K fighters. Note folded tailcone and nose pitot tubes.

[hellohikaru]

The proposed MiG-29K for the Indian navy. Looks kinda different from the 29K of the 90s that was derived from the advanced 29M.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

OK now the MIG-29K is officially my FAVOURITE Fulcrum!! Those flaps really do it for me, it looks nice. And no more ugly ass UB blunt nose. The fulcrum looked so much like the flanker and eagle that I never really gave it its due till now. NOW it looks better!!!!!!! Truly the sexiest of all MIGs.

Here that namco? Thats a MIG-29 VARIANT!! Man hopefully they do not give the fulcrum the shaft again in the next ace combat.

BTW hikaru where did you get that>? Is it from one of this month's mags?

[Coota0]

Time for some Russian naval jets.

Kuznetsov hangar deck crowded up with Su-27K fighters. Note folded tailcone and nose pitot tubes.

I want to see how they get those birds to the flight deck, it doesn't look like there is enough room to move any of them around on the hanger deck.

[kalvasflam]

Nice shot of the Russian carrier. Did they ever make the SU-30 IB, or whatever it's called (Platypus I think) into a carrier version? Last I recall the SU-25 would've been used as the carrier strike aircraft, but those things are just so darn ugly... yet incredibly effective against ground targets.

[hellohikaru]

Did they ever make the SU-30 IB, or whatever it's called (Platypus I think) into a carrier version?

As far as i know the Su-27IB became the Su-32/34 Fullback series of penetrator/strike aircraft and not meant for carrier ops. There is another variant design for the naval training/possible strike role called the Su-27KUB which has a conical nose. I don't know the status of the project.

The Su-25 as far as i heard are UTG carrier ops trainer variant and have little attack capability.

I want to see how they get those birds to the flight deck, it doesn't look like there is enough room to move any of them around on the hanger deck.

Kuznetsov has 2 elevators and i am sure they can shuffle like child's blocks.

BTW hikaru where did you get that>? Is it from one of this month's mags?

I am not so sure.

Found them at this forum. You should check them out. That board is rich.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[hellohikaru]

Ever wondered what alternative are available for the Su-25 FROGFOOT ?

Behold the Il-40 BRAWNY and the 90s-era Il-102, jet powered brethens of the Il-2/Il-10 Sturmovik series. And they have a tail gunner as well.

[GunnerX]

BTW hikaru where did you get that>? Is it from one of this month's mags?

The scans are from "Combat Aircraft" magazine, tink it was the previous 1 or 2 issues about india buying a russian carrier 2nd hand and a complement of the MiG-29K's. Lotsa nice MiG-29K pics inside too.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

COmbat aircraft mag rules!! SO does WAP journal. Literally a book. lol

That reminds me, we know Paul Johnson made a tomcat book. but did any of you ever pick up his crusader book? it ruled!!! I skipped out on it way back when it was released, simply because I wasn't as a big of a sader fan as I am now. very informative, and THICK on high gloss! A lot more pages and thicker than the tomcat book he made, not to mention tons of pictures. THEE crusader book!! I recommend it to anyone who is a fan/. Hope it has the super crusader pics too since that plane was obscure and very very deadly looking. And awesome as well.

btw hikaru are those models you listed based on real planes?

[Lindem Herz]

The proposed MiG-29K for the Indian navy. Looks kinda different from the 29K of the 90s that was derived from the advanced 29M.

I'll say it once, and for all. When in doubt, to make an aircraft as cool as humanly possible, you just need to paint it black and white. If you, don't want black, go for something dark.

[hellohikaru]

are those models you listed based on real planes?

Of course they are. Prototypes of both planes existed. And it can carry alot of dump weapons.

[hellohikaru]

The proposed MiG-29K for the Indian navy. Looks kinda different from the 29K of the 90s that was derived from the advanced 29M.

I'll say it once, and for all. When in doubt, to make an aircraft as cool as humanly possible, you just need to paint it black and white. If you, don't want black, go for something dark.

I don't think it has anything to do with the cool factor here since Indian Navy Sea Harriers are painted just like that as were Royal Navy ones during the 80s. Helps to conceal the plane when flying over water.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Guys got a new digicam. So pics of the new stuff I have gotten this sem.

First off. Dragon 1/72 F-16C TFS and F-15C 1st TFW

And now my 1/72(supposed) new ray YF-23 I found at KB toys. Plastic. Prety nifty for 5$.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Guys I am definitely thinking my YF-23 is NOT 1/72 scale. It's closer to my Dragon F-16 in size rather than my Dragon F-15. But it is definitely bigger than my Force One F-15 and F-14.

I can post comparison shots tonight, I am definitely thinking it is either 1/100 or a scale between 1/72 and 1/100...perhaps 1/80?

So does anyone want me to take some shots for tonight?Let me know! The pilot within the plane is definitely out of scale.

[David Hingtgen]

I'd like to see the engines and belly.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I'll get some comparison pics real soon. David and others interested in the black widow, be WARNED!! the gear is painfully obvious and the gears are probably not accurate. However for 5$, I'm not complaining. Just wish it was diecast like Force1!!

On a side note, i you go to an air show most likely a vendor will see some low vis F-14A VF-1 Wolfpack toys.

[David Hingtgen]

Some of the more recent Dragon F-15's are being re-released with Sparrows, Drop Tanks, a tarmac, and ground crew:

http://www.dragonmodelsusa.com/dmlusa/welcome.asp Just scroll down a little.

Hmmn, looks like the Sparrows are attached like they should be, on the fuselage corners. I still haven't bought the Langley F-15C, guess I'll wait for this version to be available. And no, I don't think they added the pylons to the F-15E, we're not that lucky. And I really don't think they carry twin Paveways like that on the wings. (They're obviously re-using the set some F-16's come with)

[Lightning]

I just thought of a neat payload configuration for the Lightning. Two of the gunpods that they stuck on the F-4B's (SUU-11?) on top of the wings, and a couple on the bottom as well, and one huge drop tank under the belly.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

okay boys, PICS!!

first the engine nacelles as David requested.

nozzle closeup. Hopefully the burner fans are viewable.

undercarriage

3/4 in flight rettract

head on retract

side undercarriage

oversized pilot

size vs dragon F-15

vs f16

ertl 1/100 F-14 and F-15 with new ray YF-23 in middle

overhead

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

the rest

f15 and YF-23

vs f15 1/100

vs f14

All i all I conclude that the YF-23 I have is NOT 1/72. More likely 1/100 now that I see the size relations. The pilot is definitely out of scale and is the same one in EVERY new ray airplane. 1/48 prop planes too.

The dragon planes are suppposedly same priced with added accessories. Hopefully they "fix" the tomcat too!!!

and that concludes my pics. Any questions? comments?

[Graham]

I've also got that el-cheapo YF-23 toy, as well as the YF-22 in the same series.

They're actually pretty good for the cost, although I found the landing gear to be a pain to install and very fragile. Snapped mine when putting them together, so I ended up building them without the gear, which looks much better IMO as I hate it when the manufacturers make toy fighters with unrealistic semi-recessed landing gear.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Hmmn. The YF-23 has a surprising number of accurate details. The gear is quite correct, if crude. However, it is YF-23 #1, painted up as YF-23 #2. (PW vs GE is really obvious on the -23). And the belly panel lines are totally made up.

I'd say it's closer to 1/72 than 1/100. 1/80? 1/85? It should be a little bit longer than a -15 with a little bit LESS span. (Real life it's about 5 feet longer but 5 feet narrower than the -15, but the overall wing area is 50% greater due to chord) It's far too big to be 1/100.

Hey Graham--if you need replacement YF-23 gear, just do like the manufacturer did--take an F-15's nosegear and an F-18's main gear. Just remove the "shock absorbers" from the -18 gear and you're good to go. Everything that's not the actual airframe of the -23 is standard McDonnellDouglas parts. From the ejection seat to the gear.

Edited April 6, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Graham, you got them in kit form? The ones I saw were already built, but I do know new ray offers them in kitform to the hobby stores. Preassembled ones are at the toy stores. Sorry to hear of your breakage!!!

David thanks for the size clarifications. I was thinking it was an inbetween like 1/80 or such.

I should note that the panel lines are raised rather than engraved. New ray does this with a lot of their releases. It does not look as good.

For what its worth though, it is cool to have a YF-23 that you can definitely play with zooming around the apartment. Especially after its triumphant return to Ace Combat 5.