Aircraft VS super thread!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

if only there was a site with galleries! SOME fan had to be as crazy as us and bought all them and POSTED them online! I only saw one on ebay and that was LONG LONG LONG ago!

FInding those on ebayu is lke tracking down a gijoe x-16 ghost striker...its only once in a LONG while~!

So in terms of the F-14 this brings us to 5 variants

1-VF-111 sundowners

2-VF-84 jolly rogers

3-bootleg(dont know but the quality was THE SAME and pretty good! sold in kb toy store early 90s) navy

2-air force

3-marine camo

oh yea they had the same joysticks just the last 3 had lights as well. very cool and from what I remember, cheap as well. If only kb would reissue those

THis brings memories of the force one ertl toys and also the diecast lightup hornet and ef2000 at kb. Oh yea and theres another line of ALL tomcats that were smaller than flying fighters but came in various camo, more accurate as wel. I think it was skydogs?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I think the 'Kai' means 'modified'.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys. Everyone goes goo goo ga ga over the SU-37 but after reading and studying up I have come to the conclusion that in combat a cobra mgiht not even be used and as it seems it can be seen a mile a way. Nonttheless for a big ass aircraft it moves splendidly but!

I came up with more matches

X-31 EFM vs SU-37 super flanker

and F-22 vs Su-37

this is in terms of dogfighting. I tinknthe manuevers the X-31 has and its very very nice AOA manueverability are more beneficial than the flankers *trinkets* like the culbit or cobra. (see video were x-31 scores numerous kills on f-18 mock NON CHOREAGRAPHED dogfight).

I also think the F-22 might be manueverable enough to take on the SU-37 in knifefighting, I mean its fast, got high alpha low speed manueverability, and the engines really help in accelerating the hell out of a manuever as well.

Edited June 8, 2004 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[Nied]

Well the X-31 vs Super Flanker is easy. SU-37 all the way, it has guns

F(/A)-22 vs Su-37, that one's harder. The Flanker probably has a maneuverability advantage over the Raptor, and the Raptors sensors adavantage is dulled at close range (and the Flanker's IRST comes into play). On the other hand teh Raptor would still have a stealth advantage, even at that range, making it harder to draw a bead on. I think it would come down to individual pilots more than anything else.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I cant remember the last time I played the TAW sim but I think I do remember the F-22 having IRST. At ogfighting range I don't really think stealth matters. IN the sim you were only undetectable far away when you got into the enemies radar coverage they were able to lock on. But it would show you the distance to reaching their coverage...so the whole point was to avoid it and shoot their ass before tehy knew it was coming.

Now in terms of X-31 lets say dogfight loadout, guns and missles. I think it could turn into the flanker and annhilate it.

Now in terms of flanker vs raptor I think the powerful engines of the raptor will let it out acclerate out of its manuvers fast, if anything the flanker will likely bog down due to lots of oncoming drag and high alpha at low speed. So I think it will likely end up being an energy fight with the raptor being used like an eagle, zoom and climb, zone 5 afterburn and getting at the flankers 6 when the flanker loses a lot of speed turning tight.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

another figvht I should have mentioned MUCH MUCH earlier(surprised noone has yet as well) is this

F-15ACTIV/STMD vs SU-37

The original flanker was meant to take on the normal eagle, but the super flanker and ACTIV are souped up versions of the respective fighters, so with that I think a dogfight with these 2 would be VERY interesting. Both have

1-mach 2 capability

2-CANARDS!

3-THRUST VECTORING

maybe mach 2 dont really matter in this fight but nonetheless both can attain it.

A very interestinfg fight to me and it would be a glorious VISUAL spectacle!

*BTW I have some VF-103 pics from an airshow at oceana back in 97 along with a hornet and F-15C, so if anyone wants to see please say so and I will post here for all to see!*

[Coota0]

I want to see them!!!!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I want to see them!!!!

see what? Su-37 and F-15ACTIV are in ace combat 4. Su-37 is yellow squadron's craft and Su-37 is a flanker with canards. F-15 ACTIV has canards that are horizontal stabilizers from an F/A-18.

If you still don't know what these are I will link later on.

[David Hingtgen]

F-15ACTIVE and F-15/SMTD are different planes. And the ACTIVE's much better. And AC/AFDS consistently get the two mixed up. As do most people, books, and pics.

Shin--did you get the VF-101 red-tail plane in those pics? The '97 Oceana scheme of that plane is one of the all-time most famous F-14's ever, and my absolute favorite scheme for an F-14. And what squadrons are the F-15 and 18?

Edited June 9, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

F-15ACTIVE and F-15/SMTD are different planes. And the ACTIVE's much better. And AC/AFDS consistently get the two mixed up. As do most people, books, and pics.

Shin--did you get the VF-101 red-tail plane in those pics? The '97 Oceana scheme of that plane is one of the all-time most famous F-14's ever, and my absolute favorite scheme for an F-14. And what squadrons are the F-15 and 18?

Aw man that plane DOES kick ass!

No unfortunately that plane was not on display, it may have been in the bombing demo and if I do havea pic I will post.

I LOVE that plane! The one I got is a high contrast VF-103 Tomcat. It is a jolly roger but no grey decals, instead of yellow it has white. So its an "medium in between viz"

It is an F-14B and looks AWESOME, also has 2 bombs on the phoenix palette.

The F/A-18 was from VFA-43 in agressor color, not sure if I stil got the pic. THe F-15C not sure what squadron, probbaly from langley as its close by and it is in dark grey but a single seater.

Wait for 97 grim reaper you are talking about the one with a red area engulfing the middle of the front fueselage as well right?(instead of black antiglare on canopy and nose its red)

I love it!

[David Hingtgen]

Well for Langley, red fin-stripe is 71st, yellow is 27th, and blue is 94th (my fave)

VF-103 "white-tip" is my favorite scheme for 103. I do not like the yellow on low-vis grey, the white looks much better on low-vis. Yellow only looks good on the high-vis earlier schemes. I wish they'd have used white for longer, it was only like 95-97 they did that.

VF-101 "usually described as the '97 Oceana scheme":

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Well for Langley, red fin-stripe is 71st, yellow is 27th, and blue is 94th (my fave)

VF-103 "white-tip" is my favorite scheme for 103. I do not like the yellow on low-vis grey, the white looks much better on low-vis. Yellow only looks good on the high-vis earlier schemes. I wish they'd have used white for longer, it was only like 95-97 they did that.

VF-101 "usually described as the '97 Oceana scheme":

oh mnan thats my fave reaper scheme!@

BTW I am also working on a painting based on the photo I took. It is for color theory for illustration class and I will post it here. I am no Lou Drendel but I just thought you all might like a look, I will scan later along with the pics.

This is what happenes when you realize you love art more than flying but cant escape the fact that you wanted to fly a tomcat all your life.

[Coota0]

*BTW I have some VF-103 pics from an airshow at oceana back in 97 along with a hornet and F-15C, so if anyone wants to see please say so and I will post here for all to see!*

I want to see them!!!

This is what I meant.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

OHHHHHhh okay. Yea dude later tonight I shall scan and upload!( just finishing my tomcat painting based on the photos for an assignment)

It shall come to this thread!

BTW i hope dragon makes their F-14B a jolly roger white midviz. It is a beautiful bird..that and the red reaper.......

While they are at it also the pukin dogs and VX9 black F-14D

[Nied]

I cant remember the last time I played the TAW sim but I think I do remember the F-22 having IRST. At ogfighting range I don't really think stealth matters. IN the sim you were only undetectable far away when you got into the enemies radar coverage they were able to lock on. But it would show you the distance to reaching their coverage...so the whole point was to avoid it and shoot their ass before tehy knew it was coming.

Now in terms of X-31 lets say dogfight loadout, guns and missles. I think it could turn into the flanker and annhilate it.

Now in terms of flanker vs raptor I think the powerful engines of the raptor will let it out acclerate out of its manuvers fast, if anything the flanker will likely bog down due to lots of oncoming drag and high alpha at low speed. So I think it will likely end up being an energy fight with the raptor being used like an eagle, zoom and climb, zone 5 afterburn and getting at the flankers 6 when the flanker loses a lot of speed turning tight.

While TAW was a great sim it wasn't always entirely acurate. Right now the F(/A)-22 doesn't have an IRST (though Lockheed aparently has a stealthy emplacement designed for it when/if the Air Force decides to install one), and though it's stealth would be greatly reduced at such short ranges it wouldn't be useless. It's exhausts are still desinged to deaden it's IR signature, and it's paint is designed to emit IR radiation at a frequency that dispates rapidly in an atmosphere. That and it's still marginally effective radar stealth would make maintaining a lock tough for the Flanker. I do think you're right about the Raptors energy advantage, 80,000 lbs of combined thrust is certainly handy in a dogfight.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I cant remember the last time I played the TAW sim but I think I do remember the F-22 having IRST.  At ogfighting range I don't really think stealth matters.  IN the sim you were only undetectable far away when you got into the enemies radar coverage they were able to lock on.  But it would show you the distance to reaching their coverage...so the whole point was to avoid it and shoot their ass before tehy knew it was coming. 

Now in terms of X-31 lets say dogfight loadout, guns and missles.  I think it could turn into the flanker and annhilate it.

Now in terms of flanker vs raptor I think the powerful engines of the raptor will let it out acclerate out of its manuvers fast, if anything the flanker will likely bog down due to lots of oncoming drag and high alpha at low speed.  So I think it will likely end up being an energy fight with the raptor being used like an eagle, zoom and climb, zone 5 afterburn and getting at the flankers 6 when the flanker loses a lot of speed turning tight.

While TAW was a great sim it wasn't always entirely acurate. Right now the F(/A)-22 doesn't have an IRST (though Lockheed aparently has a stealthy emplacement designed for it when/if the Air Force decides to install one), and though it's stealth would be greatly reduced at such short ranges it wouldn't be useless. It's exhausts are still desinged to deaden it's IR signature, and it's paint is designed to emit IR radiation at a frequency that dispates rapidly in an atmosphere. That and it's still marginally effective radar stealth would make maintaining a lock tough for the Flanker. I do think you're right about the Raptors energy advantage, 80,000 lbs of combined thrust is certainly handy in a dogfight.

yea I was talking more on terms of a dogfight. WIth guns an heat seekers. I think the raptor will have helmet mounted site enabled as well. TAW couldnt have been very accurate, I dont think the US will ever let anyone outside the air force high ups have information highly accurate to the accurate bird. NOnetheless its still the best F022 sim and a GREAT add on to F-22ADF.

With planes in mind, get ready folks, in this very thread I will show my air show pics oceana 97 and my painting based on one of them for homework.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

OK first up. Enjoy! Most of thse are F-14B VF-103 bird. AWesome plane. Mic viz so to speak and very very beautiful.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Next up we have the A-10 shot And more of the tomcat. THere is one eagle shot as well. A-10 is in grey, and F-18 is barely seen but it is in aggressor blue camo colors. I love the tomcat!!!!MArkings are excellent and a dragon F-14B warbird with that kind of mid viz color scheme in jolly rogers would ROCK!!!

Hopefully they make an F-14A as well in VF-1 WOLFPACK COLORS!

painting will be scanned when dry

Edited June 9, 2004 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Ok my initial glaze on my summer school color theory for illustration assignment is dry so with that I will post my progress on my F-14 painting based on one of the photos I took.

Enjoy!

[David Hingtgen]

Yup, my fave VF-103 scheme. If you think about it, maybe they made them stop since pure black and white is actually such high contrast, they considered it high-vis? Still, I just LOVE the monochrome effect from the black/white markings on the grey camo.

::rant:: Decals for this scheme hard to find, and with Hasegawa's "beige" white, even if you find those kits it won't look good. 1/32 is the only aftermarket decal I know for this scheme. I really hate it when companies don't sell all decals in all scales. I mean, if it's something that covers the ENTIRE fin and must EXACTLY fit a SPECIFIC kit---we understand that it's more than just typing "resize at 50%" to get the artwork ready for another scale/kit. But all we need is the diagonal stripe on the nose, and the skulls. There's nothing model/scale-specific on the sheet.

Shin---Hasegawa loves that scheme, and there really aren't many F-14B schemes out there.(besides 20 variations of pure low-vis) I wouldn't be surprised if VF-103 is the first F-14B they do. Dragon copies Hase schemes, it's amazing how high the correlation is between Hase's releases, and Dragon releases. Still, haven't seen Dragon F-14 photos in over a year, and the F-15E's 6 months late. (But it's finally out).

F-14 Wolfpack is 99.999% certain, Dragon's even showed their logo a few times on the site. That, VF-84, or VF-111 are certainly the likely choices for first release.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Yup, my fave VF-103 scheme. If you think about it, maybe they made them stop since pure black and white is actually such high contrast, they considered it high-vis? Still, I just LOVE the monochrome effect from the black/white markings on the grey camo.

::rant:: Decals for this scheme hard to find, and with Hasegawa's "beige" white, even if you find those kits it won't look good. 1/32 is the only aftermarket decal I know for this scheme. I really hate it when companies don't sell all decals in all scales. I mean, if it's something that covers the ENTIRE fin and must EXACTLY fit a SPECIFIC kit---we understand that it's more than just typing "resize at 50%" to get the artwork ready for another scale/kit. But all we need is the diagonal stripe on the nose, and the skulls. There's nothing model/scale-specific on the sheet.

Shin---Hasegawa loves that scheme, and there really aren't many F-14B schemes out there.(besides 20 variations of pure low-vis) I wouldn't be surprised if VF-103 is the first F-14B they do. Dragon copies Hase schemes, it's amazing how high the correlation is between Hase's releases, and Dragon releases. Still, haven't seen Dragon F-14 photos in over a year, and the F-15E's 6 months late. (But it's finally out).

F-14 Wolfpack is 99.999% certain, Dragon's even showed their logo a few times on the site. That, VF-84, or VF-111 are certainly the likely choices for first release.

GOOD! For an F-14A I expect the high viz awesome 70s era schemes, VF-84 and VF-1. THose 2 color schemes are my FAVE F-14A!

Now red grim reaper CO 101 would be AWESOME even as a limited edition since it looks so badass.

VF-103 F-14B will rock as well. I can also assure you all that a superhornet won't even look half as good with the squadrons its replacing the tomcat in............it seems that the squadrons barely paint it......grey here, crap its the CAG! ok a dab of color there BAM!

Tomcat will always look good in high viz............now a super hornet? dont think so. DIamondback tomcats look awesome. Dmanback super horn ets look p-lain.

I always think that the phantom and the tomcat had the best high viz schemes in the navy EVER, that and the crusader.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

David, and others who like the dragon warbirds. I looked at HLJ.com and they have not a LINEART colorgraph pic, but a pic of the F-15C gorrilaz warbird! the Dragon 1/72 one!! No missles on it But I imagine it at least comes with sidewinders. It does look nice but the pic is too small to see everything. Canopy has a rust tint like the strike eagle released a few months back.

Oh yea they stopped preorders too. Must be selling like hotcakes!@ There is also this thing called world aircraft collection by takara, its a box of trade F-15s I think that come in different colors like hiko kyodotai( i think all are represented) and air force schems. Looks interesting.

ALso. ANy of you play the lethal skies or lethal skies 2 games on ps2? ANd how are they like? THey are going for mad cheap in VA and I am wondering if I should pick it up. THe reviews I have read range from the 6-7 out of 10 scores. ANd the video looked nice as well as multiplayer and

COCKPITS FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THEY HAVE FUNCTIONNING COCKPITS!! IT scored higher than AFDS in many pklaces.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

In lethal skies and AFDS the JSF planes are featured. However, I am not surprised lockheed won the competition. I never really remember why they did win but nonetheless I think it will make a good discussion. you all know I don'ty like the way JSF is going, it started out well and well to me it is going in the wrong direction.

NOnetheless I think it would be a good debate for

X-32(both versions...delta and final) vs X-35

X-32 had the chin intake which I like and the X-35 looked heavily based on the F-22. Ideally JSF should have been a large sized mujltiroole strike fighter, bigger planes can do multirole quite well(F-14/15/Su-30MKI/35) and not have many sacrifices compared to something like a super hornet.

BTW i read on a list that upcoming dragon warbirds include SUPER HORNETS!! That and tomcats make me want to get some dragon! Hopefulyl trhey do a vietnam series with F-4B's and CRUSADERS!

[Coota0]

Maybe somebody knows the answer to my question.

I know a forward swept wing gives better manuverability, especially when combined with thrust vectoring and canard wings, and you are forced to trade stealth for manuvarbitlity, but how do the conards affect stealth on a plane conventionally swept wings, like an F-15 ACTIV or if you were to place them on something like the F-22.

I know the Eurofighter uses them (no stealth), the SU-37(no stealth), but a Rafale does have stealthy fetures, anybody know?

[Nied]

Maybe somebody knows the answer to my question.

I know a forward swept wing gives better manuverability, especially when combined with thrust vectoring and canard wings, and you are forced to trade stealth for manuvarbitlity, but how do the conards affect stealth on a plane conventionally swept wings, like an F-15 ACTIV or if you were to place them on something like the F-22.

I know the Eurofighter uses them (no stealth), the SU-37(no stealth), but a Rafale does have stealthy fetures, anybody know?

Well you want to keep protrusions to a minimum to preserve stealth, so just their existance would add somewhat to an aircraft's RCS. On the other hand as long as they are properly integrated with the airframe (ie making sure the leading edges line up, and the angles of the canards were right) it wouldn't add an undue amount to the RCS of a design (one of Lockheed's original JSF desings had canards).

Edited June 13, 2004 by Nied

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

which reminds me a lot of the rejected HJSF designs that never made it on the drawing boards look kind of cool. I like the MCD proposal and the grumman proposal as well. BTW I also heard the JSF on 2 versions can carry heatseekers on the wingtips....anyone care to elabnorate nad confirm>? I don';t care about stealth so the more the weapons to merrier to me.

[Nied]

I beilieve that the CV version carries them on Flanker style launchers near the wingtips, while the AF and STOVL versions carry them on F-16/F/A-18/F-5 style launchers on the wingtips.

[Nied]

My bad.

This site shows that the CTOL and STOVL have Flanker like wingtip launchers shile the CV version has the rails further inboard.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hmm thats cool. Now that I think about it, the add on cgunpod wouldnt add on too much drag to the Navy and VTOL versions right? I mean its not as big as a droptank and it is mounted on the centerline.

My preferred mission armnament are as follows(lets hope dragon maks one of these one day)

F-35C

-AMRAAM x2

-GPS x2

Both above internal in bays

-Teardrop gunpod

-4 Aim-9X

-AMRAAM x2 external

with that we have the weaponsload of a legacy hornet only this configuration would be for fleet defense. Not bad. Just gimme more thrust and some thrust vectoring on the non marine versiosn and supercruise and maybve canards and we are in business!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

ok people noticed some airplane topics floaitng around and such that should be in here ideally so with that time to resurrect.

Planes I thought of that would be good to debate/

F-8III super crusader(gator)vs F-4S phantom II

-Rafale vs EF2000 typhoon

-Harrier II vs JSF F-35B

-X-32 vs A-7 corsair II

-F/A-18D marine night attack vs F/A-18F super bug

-Mig-29M vs Su-35

-F-2 vs F-16

-F-20 vs F-8()AREA 88 HELL YEA)

-RF-5E Tigereye vs RF-8

-A-10 vs A-9(another match northrop lost...wonder why)

-F-20 vs golden eqagle korea

-B-1B vs Tu-160 blackjack(fdamn this is a big plane)

-F-117 vs F-35A

-F/A-117X navy Vs F-35B

lesson of this week. I think flankers rock but nowhere near a threat as defense planners say when planning the next budget for their planes. HMMMMMM

[Skull Leader]

The reason they're not the threat they could be is because they're still using stoneage radar and target aquisition gear. If they ever got a hold of some of our advanced fire control systems, a SU-37 would rule the skies..... It's a great deal of what makes our fighters so deadly in BVR combat.

Edited June 26, 2004 by Skull Leader

[David Hingtgen]

-F-8III super crusader(gator)vs F-4S phantom II

F8U-3. An F-4S is nothing but an upgraded J, which is basically a navalised D w/slats.

-Rafale vs EF2000 typhoon

Typhoon

-Harrier II vs JSF F-35B

Sea Harrier would fare MUCH better, but F-35B.

-X-32 vs A-7 corsair II

Fugliness: tie. Bombing: A-7. Fighting: X-32.

-F/A-18D marine night attack vs F/A-18F super bug

Doing what? Strike, recon, tanking, air-to-air?

-Mig-29M vs Su-35

Su-35

-F-2 vs F-16

Hmmmmmn. Be more specific. F-16C Block 30D will beat a LOT of planes in the air. A Block 50 with the HTS removed will also do VERY well. Block 42's probably the worst for air to air.

-F-20 vs F-8

F-20. F-8 rocks, but the F-20's insane, and still has twin cannons.

-RF-5E Tigereye vs RF-8

RF-8. Sleek and fast.

-A-10 vs A-9(another match northrop lost...wonder why)

A-10

-F-20 vs golden eqagle korea

F-20

-B-1B vs Tu-160 blackjack(fdamn this is a big plane)

B-1B, due to quasi-stealth.

-F-117 vs F-35A

Umm, air to air? F-35. Bombing--I vote for F-117.

-F/A-117X navy Vs F-35B

Ooooh, tough one. Don't know.

Edited June 26, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

awesome. Oh yea not to mention the super gator was meant to have guns if in production. Making it kick more ass as well.

F-2 vs latest block F-16.

For strike and bombing is the fomparison for JSF and F-117. AF-1117X looked promising in air to air.

super bug vs night attack in strike and a2a

[Coota0]

-F/A-18D marine night attack vs F/A-18F super bug

Doing what? Strike, recon, tanking, air-to-air?

Uh...let's go with tanking, But off a KA-6, an S-3, or a KC-135....descisions, descisions

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

-F/A-18D marine night attack vs F/A-18F super bug

Doing what?  Strike, recon, tanking, air-to-air?

Uh...let's go with tanking, But off a KA-6, an S-3, or a KC-135....descisions, descisions

LOL.

I think the super bug F and night attack hornet should be compared on the basis of strike capability, range, manuverability, acceleration and performance in A2A.

Since the night attack is the marines best operational striker and the super bug F model will eventually be the only thing the NAvy can count on to even fulfill a bare fraction of the A-6's role, I tfelt it was good to compare the 2 seat super bug strike fighter against the 2 seat legacy night striker.

Tanking LOL? I would have to say KA-6D and KC-135.

It is a shame NASa didnt do anything with the super crusader, most of the test pilots thought it could reach Mach 3 since it was incredibly fast and due tro the fact that they were never able to test its highest speed to the max....last reported t was mach 2/6 and was able to go faster. OH yea and it was more manueverable than the phantom...only lost because the F-4 was 2 engine and 2 seat.

I wonder if it is possible for my homeland country(Philippines) got get F-20s. Unless northrop pulled a cheney on themselves and destroyed all the tooling LOL.