Aircraft VS super thread!

[promethuem5]

Would anyone mind explaining to an aircraft newbie (I only have a vague knowledge of WWII planes) in layman's terms with the F-15ACTIVE is and what the "ACTIVE" nozzles are?

[David Hingtgen]

::edit:: If you call yourself a newbie, I'll explain vectoring. Thrust vectoring is moving the nozzle of a jet engine around to move the plane, in addition to more conventional methods of control like ailerons and rudder. The Harrier is a good example of early vectoring, as it rotates its exhaust nozzles straight down to force the exhaust down to allow it to hover. 2D and 3D vectoring basically relates to how much the nozzle can move. 2D is basically up/down, 3D can move in any direction.

Best to start with a history of that particular aircraft. That is 71-0290, the first F-15B. After serving for your standard tests, and later doing some F-15E evaluations, it went to NASA. There it was modified to have canards, and became the F-15 Agile Eagle. (Technically NF-15B). This increased overall agility and high-alpha performance. The canards are actually modified F-18 stabs.

Then, it got 2D vectored thrust nozzles, and became the F-15S/MTD. S/MTD=STOL/Manuevering Technology Demonstrator. First plane to vector supersonically and at Mach 2. (At Mach 2 it very likely is the most agile plane there is, as even hyper-manuverable planes like the EF-2000 and F-22 are optimized for subsonic agility, the S/MTD and ACTIVE are designed to improve high-speed agility) It also has improved field performance (the STOL part), and is one of the few jet fighters to incorporate thrust reversers. (Ground only AFAIK, it can't use its reversers in air---very few planes can)

F-15S/MTD is the most-photographed configuration. It's what's posted in reply #1558 of this thread. It is 99% of the time referenced as the F-15ACTIVE, and labled as such, but it is not. Seriously, if you google F-15ACTIVE, nearly every single photo will actually be the S/MTD.

Anyways, after the 2D vectoring nozzles, it got 3D vectoring nozzles, the ACTIVE nozzle. ACTIVE=Advanced Control Technology for Integrated VEhicles.

It's all the same plane, different name for different configurations. Basically:

1. Canards, standard engines/nozzles=F-15B Agile Eagle

2. Canards, new rear fuselage with flat nozzles=F-15S/MTD

3. Canards, standard fuselage/engines with 3D vectoring nozzles=F-15ACTIVE. The 3D nozzles look similar to standard F-15 nozzles, you have to really know your nozzles to tell them apart.

Edited October 25, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[Skull Leader]

Since inevitably the super hornet will get replaced by something in the next 2-3 decades, what do you think it will have?

interesting to see what future aircraft will rearm the various VFA squadrons.

And I recently saw some F-117 kits...WHOA..I had no idea it was that big~!  I kept thinking it was similar in size to the F-16, but boy was I wrong~!!

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Actually, I would not at all be surprised if a swing-wing capable stealth fighter found it's way into the navy arsenal. The performance and carrier-storage benefits speak for themselves. The SH may be all well and good for doing many different things *reasonably* well, but eventually they're going to want something that can stay on station longer without having to hit the tanker so many times. A swing-wing stealth fighter has been conceptualized in many different forms, it could be possible that one or two have gone back to the drawing board for further refinement. The DoD never stops worrying about tomorrow (despite the catchphrase of "Tomorrow's military defending today with yesterday's equipment")

What's more, there's still plenty of time for a Naval variant of the F-35 to tank out(and given all the problems it's had on every other front, it's very well possible), so it wouldn't surprise me if DoD is looking for alternatives there also.

The F-117 isn't too big, I've seen 3 in person and I was actually expecting them to be bigger still... just my observation though.

Edited October 25, 2005 by Skull Leader

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It is much bigger than the F-16 though, heh I actually thought they were the same size~! Boy was I wrong.

The super hornet more often than not, has been called a compromise fighter. It is definitely a compromise fighter, but it is reliable and faster and easier to maintain than a tomcat and a intruder. The main thing its got going for it is that it is more modernized, the tomcat and intruder were developed using technology from the 60s and perhaps the 50s, where as most of the technology used on the hornet is all new if not fairly recent in comparitive terms. I would have loved to see the tomcat unleashed to its full potential as a potent high speed bomb truck capable of filling the A-6' shows yet retaining its lethal interception capability, and some glimmer of hope still keeps me hoping we eventually see this tried at least once, the bombcats showed much potential and we know it could only go further, but might cost a lot.

From what I read the super hornet was the only alternative for the navy to even have something flying rather than to depend on the air force for aerial protection, so in other words it was the super bug or nothing. At that time, NATF was canned, F-14D protection and ST21 was cancelled, and the A-6F program was dead. Given the circumstances I understand why the super bug was chosen, even if it is far from my prefered fighter.

Being that Mcdonnal douglass is owned by boeing, and grumman is now with northrop, it would not surprise me at all if Boeing and northrop grumman were the design team to design the next gen successor to the super hornet. Mcdonnal douglass and grumman have the disctinction of making a TON of mainstays in naval aviation, with most of their planes making significant roles in the history of naval aviation.

And David, I had no idea the ACTIV had 3D vectoring! That plane is INSANE!!!!

And I am a fan of the bicentennial colors too~

[David Hingtgen]

Actually, that's not the Bicentennial plane, though many people think it is. Pure coincidence that it's a test F-15B in red/white/blue.

If you want to see 3D vectoring, check out the MiG-29M/OVT. That is truly scary, its nozzles can move 10x faster than anything I've seen. Seriously, it can move the nozzle petals as fast and complexly as you can move the fingers on your hand--it's like every petal is independent from the others, and actuated as fast as the ailerons. It not only can move in any direction, it can actually vary the shape.

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=67151

Edited October 25, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

WHOA!!!!That is crazy! Thanks for the link David. I wonder if Knight26 has seen this yet, he likes the MIG-29 a whole lot. This is a wonderful vid, and the engines when vectoring are noisy too! I had no idea it could vector thrust THAT fast!!!Seems like the pilot was stepping on his rudder pedals every .3 seconds!

I would love to see the OVT fulcrum in an airshow and also in a dogfight, truly lethal in the hands of a skilled pilot! There are ways to defeat an adversary like that, but man that manueverability and all is quite a sight to see!

And man the russian demo team schemes always look cool for some reason!

BTW guys, for you fulcrum fanatics, the MIG-29 in Ace combat zero has Air to air MISSLES for its special weapon!!! FINALLY!!! I was tired of being limited to A2g rockets for special weapons!

[promethuem5]

Gonna check out the vid tonite when I have time to load it. Thanks for all the info... makes perfect sense. It seems rather impressive to me that the MiG is still such a viable model, even with extensive upgrades, considering how old it's original design is.

[Knight26]

ARRGH CURSE THE NMCI it won't let me watch the video here at work becuase it is on a .ru site, argh. Must get home quickly today to watch cool Mig-29OVT video.

Oh and speaking of Edwards I was forced to school some stupid little JROTC or maybe he was CAP on the validity of the A-10B NA/AW they had on display, he said it was a model, ugh.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

LOL how in hell can that thing just be a model? Good thing you schooled him knight!

And the MIG-29 video is awesome, the pilot seemed a bit rough with it near the end when he demonstrates the interconnection of the rudders and horizontal stabilizers with the OVT engines. INCREDIBLY fast vectoring! I like the part in the beginning where the fulcrum does a cartwheel, seems out of control, but then proceeds to pull out of a slight dive. AWESOME!!

That and its in the airshow demo team colors, I forgot the name, I know the flanker demo team are the russian knights.

[Mislovrit]

General Dynamics (looked kind of like a twin engine F-16XL - GD's inability to get a twin tail configuration to work forced them to go with a single tail, bumping them to third place), Boeing (looked like a cross breed between their X-32 and the YF-23), and McDonnell Douglas (their design looked like a cross breed of their F-15 along with a mix of faceting and seemless surfaces... weight was a big reason they finished 5th).

Any chance you know where I could find pictures of these planes?

[David Hingtgen]

Quick update:

Did some more reading, and the F-15S/MTD *can* use its thrust reversers in flight. I'd presume there's a lot of restrictions on what speeds and for how long it can. Also, the vectoring allows it to rotate on takeoff as slow as 42mph.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

42? Talk about short take off!

[David Hingtgen]

That's what the "STO" in STOL/MTD stands for.

[Apollo Leader]

General Dynamics (looked kind of like a twin engine F-16XL - GD's inability to get a twin tail configuration to work forced them to go with a single tail, bumping them to third place), Boeing (looked like a cross breed between their X-32 and the YF-23), and McDonnell Douglas (their design looked like a cross breed of their F-15 along with a mix of faceting and seemless surfaces... weight was a big reason they finished 5th).

Any chance you know where I could find pictures of these planes?

339615[/snapback]

Here's an online article woth checking out... there are a few links in this article to pictures of a whole number of the ATF proposals:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0021a.shtml

Also, check out Bill Sweetman's most recent book on the F-22 which came out through Motorbooks back around 1998. Also his book Lockheed Stealth is worth looking at.

[promethuem5]

WOW!! I watched the video.... the dexterity on the nozzles is AMAZING. Really impressive clip.

[Apollo Leader]

WOW!!  I watched the video.... the dexterity on the nozzles is AMAZING.  Really impressive clip.

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I downloaded that, too. Pretty awesome stuff!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Speaking of the OVT, is ANYONE buying it? I know India is getting the big flapped MIG-29K(which looks awesome and turns out has MIG-29M technology), and I know this is a demonstrator for potential buyers, but man this would be totally cool if bought!

I wonder if it has the extra fuel storage of the SMT.

[Knight26]

Holy mother of mercy, I just watched video, that was beyond awesome, I can't say more because DH beat me to it but hot damn that was awesome, man I would love to see that head to head against a raptor.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I'd love to see it go against the SU-30MKI. Lord knows theres a friendly rivalry between MIG and Sukhoi(They also debated who did the COBRA first and MIG claims they did unofficially with the fulcrum doing a testrun).

From what I recollect the MKI only has 2D vectoring, whereas this badboy has all around vectoring....and I have never seen an MKI turn as tight as the OVT did. Holy crap.....

I would also love to see the X-31 knife fight this thing....THAT would be a spectacle to see! Both can perform spectacular manuevers in slow speeds...truly astounding.

Edited October 26, 2005 by Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0

[David Hingtgen]

The MKI has "quasi" 3D vectoring. It can achieve roll, pitch, and yaw with the nozzles, but they still only move up/down. However, they are mounted at an angle, so they move in/out AS they move up/down. Down is in, up is out.

In otherwords, their movement axis is not horizontal to the ground. Imagine if you were flying a plane at a 30 degree bank. Then simply move the stick back and forth. You'd go up and down, but at an angle. That's how the 30MKI vectoring works---up/down, but at an angle.

Moving them together will cancel out their outwards movement, resulting in a pitch change. Moving them oppositely also cancels the "side" movement, but the opposing up/down creates roll. Moving just one nozzle will create a side-force (as well as pitch) but with the canards and flaperons and stabilitors you could easily counteract one engine's pitch effect, thus overall adding to yaw.

All that just from "twisting" the engine mounts a few degrees. 3D effects from a 2D nozzle.

Read this, from 1/2 to 3/4 down the page for photos/description:

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flanke...s/tailbooms.htm

Also, I have a small video showing a MKI's nozzles moving. Hard to tell due to the angle but if you really look (especially on the right one) you can see them move in/out as they go up/down. Right one goes in as it goes down, left one goes out as it goes up.

http://members.aol.com/ncc42768/mki.mpg

Next, here is THE Su-37 video. If you already have an 11.8meg Su-37 video, this is it. But for those of you that don't, here it is. http://bemil.chosun.com/movie%20link/SU-35.wmv

Finally, a cool but short Su-30MKI video. 700K. "Double kulbit into an inverted roll" or something. http://members.aol.com/ncc42768/su30.avi I personally am more impressed with that than anything the OVT did.

Edited October 26, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[Knight26]

No question DH that the Su-37 would still kick a MiG-29 OVT's burners back to Moscow but the OVT is still impressive. Now had MiG been able to make their super MiG-29, with the canards and TVEs, then I think it could have given a Su-37 a run for its money.

[David Hingtgen]

Quick correction: realized when I woke up that opposing nozzles (up/down) on an Su-30MKI would create proverse yaw in addition to roll. (Hey, it's hard to think in 3D when you're tired)

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Does anyone have pics of the super fulcrum proposal>?(MIG-33 designation with canards) or the Hornet 2000 proposals with delta wing and canard?

[David Hingtgen]

Mikoyan has recently "pulled a Sukhoi" and renamed the MiG-29M the MiG-33, and the MiG-29M/OVT the MiG-35.

The "MiG-29 with canards" is actually the 1.42/144.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

actually I saw a technical drawing of a MIG-29 with canards but it was not the 1/.42/44. I think I saw this in Janes.

[hellohikaru]

I thought the 1.42/1.44 was the MFI and the special lenghtened MiG-29 with canards and tv nozzles is the MiG-35. I posted the image here before. All this designation change is mind boggling.

[David Hingtgen]

Sukhoi's re-numbering system is nothing compared to Mikoyan's. Sukhoi may give every variant a new name, but at least they don't reuse the same name for several planes. There's probably 4 "MiG-33/35's" by now. For a while the 1.44 was the MiG-35, but not anymore it seems, with the 1.44 having almost no chance of going into production.

I don't think a MiG-29 w/canards really exists. I've yet to see a photo that I can recall---and frankly, there SHOULD be photos, LOTS of them, if it's out there. It's not some black project. From some angles (and if you don't see the whole plane) a 1.44 can REALLY look like a -29 w/canards.

Googling to check gives no results---lots and lots of mentionings and a few drawings (I've got a GREAT MiG-29 w/canards etc drawing in a WAPJ) but no actual MiG-29 w/canards. Plenty of models and schematics shown at airshows though...

Edited October 27, 2005 by David Hingtgen

[buddhafabio]

david or any one else that may be able to answer, it was 1994 and i was 15 years old what is the slowest an f-15 can fly.? i ask because i was riding down hwy 98 east past Tynall AFB FL and pointed west rather low (200-300feet perhaps) to the ground and a it was flying along to the hwy probably 50 yards away.

well any way it seemed to be hovering. but i figured it did have some forward motion. i watched it for a good 15-20 seconds

is what i saw possible ? save an av-8b and recently a superhornet i have never seen a plane fly that slow. oh i forgot may be the occasional cessena

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Yea all I saw were drawings of a canarded MIG-29, it may be the one you have in WAPJ david.

[Skull Leader]

What you saw was probably a "high alpha" pass or some such thing. I couldn't quote a specific speed to you (David probably has more specifics than I do), but some aircraft can go as slow as 30-40 MPH in a high alpha setting sometimes (both kinds of Hornets and a Viper did it at the Oceana airshow, all of them were pretty slow. The tomcats wings don't lend itself to performing this maneuver very well, although it can do it to a lesser degree).

I always love listening to them crank open the throttle as they climb out of a high-alpha pass... it goes from pretty quiet to a near chest-rumbling roar, it's awesome.

[David Hingtgen]

A big part of it is optical illusion. The human eye measures speed by measuring how long an object takes to travel a distance equal to its own length. Big things look like they're going slower, even if they're not. Same reason 747's look so slow, when they are the same as any other plane. Same reason biz jets seem to really zoom around. Almost all jets have similar takeoff and landing speeds, but their relative size affects their perceived speed.

And yes, I have seen a Super Hornet have almost no apparent motion. But it's mainly just the angle, and the fact that you're "used to" planes moving so much faster.

VFA-122 says 100 knots for the high alpha pass, and that decreases with a headwind.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The super bug is known for its high rate of "nose pointing" which I think is a great asset in a dogfight. Being that it can do that, and high alpha passes, and that it has reliable engines, is it capable of performing a cobra?

And also, to you 1/18 fans, BBI's NEXT plane is the F6F hellcat. pics@figures.com! Look under fall toyfair! They also had a outofscale foam A-10 on the ceiling, and quite a few of us including myself believe it to be a placeholder for a realistic 1/18 A-10 in the works! Mike from BBI did say that stuff at the febuary toyfair would be indicative of release in fall later that year......and this is fall toyfair...soo....

We COULD see a 1/18 A-10 next fall! Cross your fingers and pray that I am right that the foam one IS a placeholder, and an actual toy will be displayed at febuary toy fair!

Also.

21st century's LONG awaited Avenger 1/18 warbird is CLOSE to being released! yes it has been quite a LONG time, but get this folks, an ACTUAL toy of this was put togethere and handled by a fan at the recent iexpo(I envy that guy!)! Minor tweaks are being performed, and from what I hear it is VERY sturdy and detailed and FREAKING HUGE~ ! Over@warbird-photos/gpxd some pics were shown next to a FW190 and it DWARFS it! 21st is very confident that it will be out before year's end! And 3 color schemes were shown in a pamphlet, 2 tone gray, flight 19, and dark blue!

Also it turns out, that 21st century's progress on the 1/18 MIG-15 and F-86 is going smoothly as well! Look for it next year. Oh and the 1/18 new tooled BBD P-51 was shown at iexpo as well!

21stcenturytoys.com has a section called area 21, join up! Its free and you get a bunch of coverage and photos of upcoming stuff!

And TRu just got an exclusive WWII set of XD figures, so couid this signal a return of the XD 1/18 series to TRU? who knows, but I sure hope so!(stuff is hard to find at walmart!)

[Zentrandude]

not realy a vs but its interesting. the guy who help design the b2 bomber is arrested in hawii for selling secrets of it to other countries.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Which countries? Like China, Iran or Russia?

And don't worry about it not being a vs post, if anything I post anything that has to do with military aviation here, like toys, Ace combat stuff, flight sims, its like a general military aviation thread.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I don;t know the answers for all of those questions but I do know some.

A CAP as far as I know does not consist of anti sub planes. I believe they do their own patrols. However the E-2, does provide early warning and works in coordination with the fighters. The E-2 acts as a naval AWACS and provides a lot of the first contact info, closing range, and all that. It can also direct fighters to certain areas.

Also CAPs tend to go in different directions, as to not blindside the fleet.

A CAP is meant to engage targets that are potentially trying to get close or attack the carrier and either escort them away or if fired upon or if hostile intent is shown, to destroy them.

Alert fighters are only dispatched if the CAPs do not eliminate all of the enemy craft or if more help is needed.

And form what I understand, yes CAP crews do sit in the cockpit the whole time. 1 gulf war book talked about tomcat pilots playing their gameboys in cockpit while waiting for a potential alert 5 launch.

I think to get a fighter scrambled it would take 10-20 minutes maybe less, I think Knight or David know more about this than I do.