Aircraft VS super thread!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

That JSF seems more badass then the real plain looking one now and it seems like it was made to dogfight as well...I mean LOOK at it! Now that is an ideal looking jSF! oh yea look at the lift fan! they even had the marines in mind. I love looking at prototypes...gives u a glimpse at what could would or SHOULD have been(my favs are the F-14C, A-6F, A-12*the stealth interceptor before blackbird that the bird was based on*, YF-23, F-20)

[Nied]

Minor changes in wing sweep? Not to mention a new underside, and completely redesiging the internal structure to accomodate the new gear. The main gear went from forward-retracting into the belly, to side-retracting into the wings. Adding a gear well into the wing's pretty major, and that's a LOT of systems to re-route and add.

Also, changing the wing sweep means every other angle needs to be changed to match, if you want to keep the whole "parallel angle"-style stealth going. But since they were going to get new stabs and relocate the intakes anyways...

Finally--a new fuselage is a lot easier (aerodynamically) than wing and tail mods. Heck, the A300-600ST is fine with practically a wholly new fuselage compared to an A300-600R, but keeps same wings. (And add simple end-plates and dorsal kinks to the stabs to compensate for blanking effects) But the same stabs overall. Also, the F-23A would have been notably even stealthier, due to the "optimized" back-end/nacelles. Yeesh, might be up there with the B-2 and F-117 at that point.

PS--I love to point out that LOCKHEED said the YF-22 was more manueverable at low-speed/high-alpha. It was never mentioned or rumored or anything by anyone else.

What's different about the underside? The internal structure actually didn't take mutch of a hit (the new gear didn't change mutch over the old gear in terms of space and atach points). The gear barely retracts into the wings at all, and it looks like one hydralic line is all that go re-routed (most of the lines for electrical and such enter at the leading edge or the trailing one). And other than sweep what's new about the stabs? The verticals are just smaller versions of the prototype's and the horzontals have a notch cut out of them for antenea.

And a new fuselage may be no big deal aerodynamically, but it's a huge deal structuraly and operationally. New fuselage means new design which means greater chance that something could go wrong compared to a reletively mature design that needs some tweaking.

P.S. You left out how it was Northrup who made the claim that the YF-23 was faster, which most of the press picked up without challenge (just like Lockheed's claims of superior maneuverability).

[ewilen]

Some help for the perplexed...

PVO is the Soviet/Russian Air Defense Force (Protivo-Vozdushnoi Oborony)

VVS is the Soviet/Russian Air Force (Voenno-Vozdushmiy Sily)

Info from http://www.ais.org/~schnars/aero/ussr.htm

Note that hte Russians organize their air-related assets very differently from us. E.g., they put interceptors, fighters, and SAMS in the PVO, and tactical air (including ground attack helicopters), bombers, and transports in the VVS.

Edited June 4, 2004 by ewilen

[David Hingtgen]

Most people (including me) accept the YF-23 as faster because:

1. Just look at the thing.

2. Northrop has historically built very sleek aircraft with awesome acceleration.

3. The early YF-22 designs couldn't have supercruised, they had to go to NASA and continually tweak it until the drag was low enough.

Point two:

This is more than a "notch" in the h.stabs.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

you know at least with the air force, their next gen fighter replacements for their premiere fighter(YF23/22) BOTH outdo the eagle. Hornet on the other hand....

LOL god I had to add that in! I feel awesome.

David is that pic from the total air war sim booklet? Brings back memories. I am glad the raptor looks better than its prototype! (before to me it looked polygonal)

I too believe the YF23 was the best choice and faster than the 22. A lot of people like me think the Black widow should have won. We have to remember that political decisions in the military do not always mean the best decisions. (F111B.) Admiral connely somewhat nailed the coffin shut for the F111B and we all know what a mess it would have been had that been the naval fighter to replace the F-4.

YF-23 is awesome. Any chance nasa or the navy will unmothball the deity of a fighter plane and test it out? I think it could set some speed records and if anything give more experience to aerospace industry in terms of stealth and aero0dynamics.

YEs I just want to see the damn thing fly again.

[David Hingtgen]

That was NASA's plan, but they never did. Sent them off to museums, engine-less after that. The engines went to separate museums. There's an ex-YF-23 F120 somewhere that's pretty easy to see, maybe the AF museum where the XB-70 is.

[David Hingtgen]

::double post::

Edited June 4, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

man that sucks! what a freaking loss! Theres a LOT to potentially be learned from that beautigull craft!

Since it is more risky than the raptor, the plane should be explored to see what it can do and what NEW innovations it can bring about! Not to mention its a stealth so there is more to learn...perhaps the navy can hire northrop grumman again to make a replacement for the F-18F when the time comes...and perhaps base it on the YF23!!! (I mean it IS there and it can be learned form if not based on)

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

1. Just look at the thing.

YUP!

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

ya know I was thinking...dragon already made a styrene model of thre YF23 in 1/72 scale, their warbirds series IS in 1/72 scale...any chance it will be given the diecast treatment? oh man ooh man oh man!!!!

MAn that plane would have kicked all kinds of ass. I bet with enough testing and improvements, it could multirole the shi* out of the JSF F-35!!

DROOOOOOLL

now THATS multirole at its best!

manuverability better than a falcon, paylod of a thud, STEALTH, internal weapons,

DROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

[David Hingtgen]

Dragon's 1/72 diecast has slowed down tremendously lately, and their plastic 1/72 wasn't very accurate. They're big on 1/400 military diecast lately. Lots of 707 variants, P-3, KC-10, B-2. We all hope for B-1B and XB-70 and B-52...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hmm a XB70 would be AWESOME. PErhaps dragon took some of the flak to their head, I read on diecastaircraft.com the many complaints on their F-15E and their relentless pilotfigures that are impossible to put in without mutilation.

BUT however I am every excited for some F-14s!!!!

YF23 needs some more justice tyhough....keep hoping hasbro makes a BIGGER gijoe one than their storm eagle...or BBI has the balls to take on such an endeavor to make a 1/18 scale one...huge as hell but hey they made a legacy hornet and are making a falcon....go for th gusto i say

(and yes though a F-14 by BBI in 1/18 scale would be enourmously huge and possibly cost 150$ i would STILL BUY THAT BITH* UP!!)

[Nied]

Most people (including me) accept the YF-23 as faster because:

1. Just look at the thing.

2. Northrop has historically built very sleek aircraft with awesome acceleration.

3. The early YF-22 designs couldn't have supercruised, they had to go to NASA and continually tweak it until the drag was low enough.

I never claimed that the YF-23 wasn't faster, just that it's kind of silly to call Lockheed for their claims of superior maneuverability while ignoring the fact that the claims of superior speed came from Northrop.

This is more than a "notch" in the h.stabs.

Not really, the fact that the notch continues into the tail booms makes it look larger but there really isn't much difference in the stabs other than the notch and the leading edge angle.

[Nied]

Oops. forgot to save that as a JPEG.

[Commander McBride]

Hmm a XB70 would be AWESOME. PErhaps dragon took some of the flak to their head, I read on diecastaircraft.com the many complaints on their F-15E and their relentless pilotfigures that are impossible to put in without mutilation.

What kind of complaints are people saying about the F-15? I just got one the other day, and I think it's really cool.

On a related issue, how are Gaincorp's F-15s? They look pretty nice, I'm thinking of ordering one. (Along with a Su-27 and a Su-34) Also, are the Gaincorp landing gears retractable / removable? I've never seen a picture of the gaincorp planes with the gear up.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hmm a XB70 would be AWESOME.  PErhaps dragon took some of the flak to their head, I read on diecastaircraft.com the many complaints on their F-15E and their relentless pilotfigures that are impossible to put in without mutilation. 

What kind of complaints are people saying about the F-15? I just got one the other day, and I think it's really cool.

On a related issue, how are Gaincorp's F-15s? They look pretty nice, I'm thinking of ordering one. (Along with a Su-27 and a Su-34) Also, are the Gaincorp landing gears retractable / removable? I've never seen a picture of the gaincorp planes with the gear up.

hmm I will let david answer your questions. I think the dragon strike eagle lacks CFTs but is SUPPOSED to come with them and from what david and many others have said on diecastaircraft.com, the toy is really a dark grey F-15D. It is innaccurate in many ways that I do not know of but David does.

I think it looks swell as well I just don't know where to buy and who takes checks.

AS for gaincorp to my knowledge gear is not removeable. ON the subject of dragon did anyone see the F-14 proto?

[Commander McBride]

Yeah, I went on and checked it out, they model does come with CFTs, but no pylons on them.

Still wondering about the gaincorps, though. I know that the Danbury F-15 that is related to the Gaincorp has very nice articulated gear, but not sure if the Gaincorp is fixed or not.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

yea dude that danbury one kicks all kinds of ass...VERY nice...to bad its 1.72 scale...a bit small for the price they charge...VERY nice nonetheless.

THe only thing that turned me off with teh gaincorp flankers is the fixed gear...lets hope the eagles have articulated ort at least manueverable gear.

if anyone has proto pics of the dragon F-14 please POST them here immediately@!

diecast gearless tomcat.....DROOL

I wonder if the amraams from the weapons kit would be able to be mounted on the tomcat./

[David Hingtgen]

Plenty of Gaincorp reviews/pics at Diecastaircraft.com, "Other scales" forum.

Anyways--the DW F-15E has NONE of the features of the E. It's like having a 2-laser-head VF-1 and saying it's an S. When the only thing that makes a VF-1S an S is the 4-laser head, a 1 or 2 laser head is most certainly not an S.

Also, the DW F-15E's CFT's are not a C/D's CFT's either. AFAIK, only 1 set exactly like that was ever made, the prototype CFT's. So they're really only right for one of the test F-15B's, basically. 71-290 and/or 71-291. Which would ironically become the ACTIVE and F-15E proof-of-concept planes.

Not to mention the DW F-15E is missing every single other F-15E-specific thing I can think of.

But c'mon--an F-15E that is physically incapable of carrying bombs? That's just wrong. What's next, a bomb-less B-52 model? How about an F-14 that has no missile trenches in the belly?

BTW, the best DW jet is the F-18, hands down. (Though they designed it for AMRAAM's on the wingtips)

AMRAAM's on the F-14: possibly. I'm wondering how the Sparrows will fit, if at all. I'm thinking it may be Phoenix/Sidewinder only, based on how the Sparrows are designed and how the real F-14 carries them. But the DW AMRAAM/Sidewinder mounting system is identical, and so far any position can carry either. So you can probably put an AMRAAM on a Sidewinder mount if the DW F-14 ever comes out. If you really wanted, you could just glue them in the Sparrow trenches.

Edited June 5, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Commander McBride]

I didn't know there was a DW F-14 on the way! I'm gonna have to get that!

As for the F-15, yeah, I checked those forums, found out how innacurate it is. It doesn't bug me too much, as it's still an awesome model. I've been hearing (and seeing) that the F-18s, are the nicest models... but I'm not going to be inviting any F-18s into my display case!

[David Hingtgen]

Ironically, my first DW fighter was an F-18. Couldn't resist my fave squadron in their all-time best-looking markings. VFA-25 CAG, 1990.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

hmmm yes.

David did you ever see the proto pics of the dragon F-14B/d? I browsed around and heard they were shown but the links I followed were broken.

The F/A-18B topgun from dragon looks mighty superb, very very awesome! I want them to make a marine night attack F/A-18D....that is my fave legacy series hornet., A F/A-18F in jolly roger colors would be real nice too...but I would much rather have an F-14 in those colors

The F-16D wild weasel is real nice lookiung as well...the wild weasel one..too bad its not out yet though. I am also tempted to get the F-15D. and C when it comes out.

HGOw durable are these things? I like to have mine doing mock dogfights with no contact(none of the planes hitting each other).

FOr that matter where can you buy these? which places take check and which do you recommend most?

I am real tempted to get these since they are diecast and very accurate. I want to see some F-4s. I am very impressed with the tiger meet F-16s as well and hope they will make luftwaffe tiget meet ones as well.

for more debates I thought of the following.

-F-8 SUper crusader (gator) vs F-4B phantom II

-Night attack marine legacy hornet F/A-18D vs F/A-18F super hornet

-Su-37 vs F-15ACTIV or STMD

-F-16A/N vs F-20 TIgershark(note in a topgun book I bought, most navy pilots in VF-43 actually PREFERRED the tigershark to the falcon in aggressor training...the reason being that they were so used to flying the F_5 which the 20 was based on, and it was easy to maintain and reliable...not to mention they were in love with the F-5 and the 20 was a way better version of the tiger )

-F-16C/F block 60 vs F-2(Viper zero?)

-F-14D vs Tornado ADV F.3

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I have 2 major beefs with the DW F-18. The canopy fit is bad, can't close properly. And if you want to display it with the airbrakes down, the thing doesnt sit flush.

Other then that, its ok. Some bits have lousy paintjob but well, its not a very expensive item here.

Hey David, my DW F-18 is the VFA-25 from USS Independence too. You got the same problems I have?

Edited June 6, 2004 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I hope dragon makes some YF-16 anbd YF=17 models in their warbirds line. ZThose are 2 beautiful prototypes!.

[David Hingtgen]

Yes, F-18 parts (canopy, airbrake) don't like to fit in the "closed" position. Inherent to the mold.

The F-16--well, if you want an A, I think they're nigh-perfect, accuracy-wise. The C's would do for EARLY C's, but they're trying to depict block 40/50's. In the "only Dragon does this"---they've molded separate intakes---yet don't use the bigger intake on the ones that should have them.

F-15A/B/C/D should be amazing, I'm planning to buy a bunch.

I've seen *early* F-14 shots, but so small I couldn't even tell what type it was, much less how accurate. However, DW does seem to have an agreement with Hasegawa (it's obvious if you own both DW and Hase 1/72 planes) and so that give me hope for the F-14. But since they messed up the late-model F-16C's...

BTW---Dragon's known for taking a LONG time between "announcement" and "arrival". I'm still waiting for my Northwest MD-80's, which were announced over a year ago. The VMFA-232 F-18 was announced 2 years ago, and we still don't have it---even though another manufacturer has already come into existence, made an F-18, and done that squadron in that time!

Ok, where to buy. Well, http://www.theflyingmule.com is a great place. If it exists right now, they've got it. (Though Super Flankers are ALWAYS sold out---there's no US distributor, very hard to get period--the manufacturer is REALLY missing out on a market) Take their own pics, nice ones too.

http://www.petescollectibles.com is often recommended, though I've personally never ordered from them yet.

http://www.onmarkint.com/ is probably the most comprehensive place, lists just about every thing ever made, with pics.

PS--almost any modern YF wouldn't be made. YF-16 and YF-17 only have 1 paint scheme to sell, and couldn't use many (if any) parts from the F-16 or F-18 molds. (Though 99% of the world wouldn't notice the YF-16 difference). I'd love a YF-23, but again--only 1 scheme per mold, unless they just ignore the engine differences.

As opposed to an F-14A mold, where they can sell 20 high-vis and 20 low-vis schemes.

Edited June 6, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

actually of the YF23 I have actually seen 3 schemes,

1-proto dark strike eagle grey

2-proto light grey

3-model kit instruction manual paint guide-TFW colors(production F-22 low viz grey camo also used on F-15s).

I have never seen a dragon upclose, the only diedcast I have seen in person are the forces o valor(I want these simply because the gear can be retracted with no removeable...but the detail is horrid and a sharpie marker for panel lines? WTF?), some small airliners, and some 1/100 armour. HJowever dragon is the one I am very vbery interested in. Oh yea I saw some armour 1/48s in cali.

Anyone know if the motormax F-18 and A-10 have retractable gear? I have only seen their ww2 stuff and they have retractable gear.

[David Hingtgen]

There are only 2 YF-23 schemes.

They were painted exactly like F-15's. One overall 36118 gunship grey,

YF-23 AF87-800, PAV-1, the PW one.

And one in your standard 1980's F-15C compass ghost scheme (36375 overall with 36320 patches), AF87-801, PAV-2, the GE-powered (faster) one.

The Dragon diecast fighters can be summed up as this: diecast versions of the Hasegawa 1/72 kits. There's no formal announcement, but it's really, really obvious that there's some connection between the companies on this. However, accuracy does of course suffer, since there's only the one mold/version.

Edited June 6, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

oh man, if only they could put out as fast as hasegawa! We could have WAY more models in diecast form! I anticipate the day when they make some JASDF phantoms and hiko kyodotai eagles....foer that matter where other planes used in hiko kyodotai before the eagle?

[David Hingtgen]

From what I can see, they replaced Mitsubishi T-2's. Most all the other F-15J's replaced F-4EJ's, and F-4EJ Kai's, though not as aggressors. (Yes, Kai really does exist as a term for custom/upgrade in the real world, not just mecha animes)

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

ah yes. Thank god they replaced T-2s, in my opinion those suck hardcore. KAi does mean plus or upgrade in japanese terms right?

I always thoughtn the japaense hiko kyodotai were amongst the best color schemed eagles anywhere. Them and the israelie raam and also the thunderbirds F-15B>

THe japanese F-2 viper zero marine blue scheme camo is VERY nice as well. SOme of their F-4EJ Kais lok awesome as well with 50th anniversary commemorative dragon decals and such.

Does japan still use the phantom?

Anyone know what happened to crusader 3? Lots of test pilots who flew it think its way better than the phantom that it lose to.

[Graham]

If there is a connection between Dragon and Hasegawa, wouldn't it be great if Dragon started making diecast, prepainted 1/72 scale versions of Hasegawa's Macross kits

Just imagine diecast 1/72 scale VF-0S, SV-51, YF-19, YF-21 etc fighters.

Graham

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

holy crap..... DIECAST SV-51 AND VF-0S/D

DROOOOOOOOOOOL By far they would beat the crap out of doyusha! Not to mention we would get F-14s IN SCALE as well!

VF-0 is looks awesome.

Man. David judgin from what you said I guess we will see the SDF-1 from yamato(if they even make one) before we even see the dragon F-14.

Hmm. oh yea...everyone post their diecast aircrfaft collections!

Also now that we speak of jhet toys there were toys in the 80s....I think one line was flying fighters..off scale but pretty nice with removeable pilots, BUT it had ALL the teen fightes and an apache...not sure if there was a phantom. THey had joystick handles so you could pretend you were manuevering the plane. Overall an awesome plane for a 4 yr old(when i was first exposed to it) . If you guys no more or have links to a site please link!

Also there was another line called sky dogs I believe, small and biger sized F-14 tomcats in differnet tiger stripe camo, made noise too bu more accurate than flying fighters.

Also there were a flying fighter bootleg I believe of the tomcat mold only with lights, 3 of them in marine, air force, and navy colors.

MAN I MISS IT LIKE CRAZY!!!!geez why did i have sto screw mine up!!)

[David Hingtgen]

Heh, I had 1 of each type of those. They actually instilled "what's my fave squadron" for a lot of them. I know I had the VFA-131 F-18, and 94TFW F-15, I've been looking for pics on the 'net to try to jog my memory as to what squadron the F-16 was.

Japan still uses F-4EJ's in some roles I think.

:;edit:: Wow, Hasbro still has the manuals up at their site!

http://www.hasbro.com/pl/page.game_and_toy.../dn/default.cfm

http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Flyi...tSunDowners.pdf

http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Flyi...atintheRing.pdf

http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Flyi...BlackWidows.pdf

http://www.hasbro.com/common/instruct/Flyi...netWildcats.pdf

I can't believe it.

Hmmn, F-14 was Sundowners (VF-111), F-16 was Black Widows. That makes sense--my fave F-14 (and all-time everything) squadron, and my fave F-16 wing.

Edited June 7, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

arrrrrrrrrr David I can't find any sites with PICS and galleries of those planes!!! I tried google but got crappy results! the best thing I could do was get those pdfs you just uploaded.

I REmember on the back of the box there was a jolly roger tomcat bUt I am not sure if they actually made one. To my knowledge there were 2 versions for each plane out so perhaps it did come out. GOd those things ROCKED. THe later line of 3 tomcats was very AWESOME as well. A marine olive camo tomcat, ww2 era blue navy tomcat, and a white with red and blue highlight air force tomcat.

they all rocked and i feel very very very stupid for not taking care of all of mine correctly. The only thing that bugged me was the sidewinders on the falcon and hornet looking real awkward if not stupid on the wingtips....made them mount like flanker tip missles.

[David Hingtgen]

Good, because I remember 2 versions of each plane as well. I just happened to have had all the ones Hasbro decided to put up instructions for.