hellohikaru Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 And here in model form is the much better looking OAV version. Forget the tv series....it pales compared with Shinatani's original.
F-ZeroOne Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 This is the Azarakhsh as near as I can tell it's a replacement for the IRIAF's older F-4s. It looks like nothing more than a giant two seat F-5 with F-4 intakes. Is that an arrestor hook...?! (striped underfuselage fixture towards engines) And if so... why?
F-ZeroOne Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 (There's no naval EF2000.) Yet. We have something of a history of suddenly needing replacements ina hurry because some wonder-toy or another didn't work out as planned...
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 4, 2005 Author Posted March 4, 2005 Yea air force planes have arrestor hoooks for emergency short distance landings on runways. Not carrier compatible though. Did shintani do work at all on the new area88?I keep hearing bad things about it. The original is looked upon with a lot of admiration. I like the manga. The only person to even come close to Shintani in terms of making a good jet fighter pilot manga is the guy who did red devil; but even then it was mainly because the way he draws MIGs, and fighters in general is SUPERB! The story is a bit weird though. I prefer Area88's story much more.
F-ZeroOne Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 Yea air force planes have arrestor hoooks for emergency short distance landings on runways. Not carrier compatible though. Ah, thanks. I was beginning to wonder if the Iranians had somehow managed to sneak an aircraft carrier by Customs... "Is toy boat. For bath. Children, you know."
Skull Leader Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 Yea air force planes have arrestor hoooks for emergency short distance landings on runways. Not carrier compatible though.Did shintani do work at all on the new area88?I keep hearing bad things about it. The original is looked upon with a lot of admiration. I like the manga. The only person to even come close to Shintani in terms of making a good jet fighter pilot manga is the guy who did red devil; but even then it was mainly because the way he draws MIGs, and fighters in general is SUPERB! The story is a bit weird though. I prefer Area88's story much more. It's really not bad (I liked it!), just don't watch it expecting it to be 100% accurate (in terms of aircraft), The aircraft have really well drawn moments sometimes (one of the later missions that shows Kim hovering over an oasis in his Harrier is just awesome, and most of Shin's dogfight scenes in his 'sader are awesome too). I've never seen the original either, and I sorely want to. I DO want the soundtrack for the new TV series they did (I have both of the soundtracks for the original), but that's because I like techno/trance
ewilen Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 Thanks for the IRIAF aircraft pics, Nied. But much if not all of what I was able to find about them seems to trace back to Tom Cooper, the rest from official Iranian claims and boasts. I'm not saying that he lacks integrity, but I wonder how much about these aircraft, and the Iranian aviation industry in general, is known publicly outside of reports by him and public announcements out of Iran. Elsewhere you wrote that I was forgetting that cruise missiles are expended as they are used. Actually, that occurred to me, but each sortie by an aircraft also entails expending resources. To properly compare cruise missiles and, say, an F/A-22, you would need to factor in the expected cost of an F/A-22 sortie, including: Risk of loss of aircraft and/or crew multiplied by the cost of replacing same Fuel Munitions Turnaround costs (time, manpower, spare parts) Aircrew turnaround time. Pilots need to rest at some point. I don't really have a handle on any of these, to be honest, but it might be an interesting exercise if you, I, or anyone else has the time. Another factor to consider is political cost: Raptors need bases near the area of operations, which may be troublesome for the host country. There is also the vulnerability of the bases to attack by ballistic or cruise missiles carrying either conventional or NBC warheads. The platforms for both naval and air launched cruise missiles are less vulnerable to this sort of threat, due to mobility, concealment, greater strike range, or a combination.
Mislovrit Posted March 4, 2005 Posted March 4, 2005 The only person to even come close to Shintani in terms of making a good jet fighter pilot manga is the guy who did red devil; His name is Toshimitsu Shimizu. (we're still replenishing our stocks two years later). More like eight years later, remember all of the cruise missiles launched at Serbia and Iraq back in 1996-98?
hellohikaru Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 Did shintani do work at all on the new area88?I keep hearing bad things about it. The original is looked upon with a lot of admiration. I like the manga. Even though Shintani is credited with both shows, the production and cast is completely different. This is because of deaths of the original voice actors(both Shin and Micky). The OAV had good music too, obviously the MIO/MIQ tracks like Good-Bye Lonely Blue, Kashimi no Destiny, Long Ago and so far away, and those nostalgic blue style track by Derek Johnson. The story follows the manga closer than the new tv series, characters look more colorful and for once Micky is actually a more friendly person. You also get a better variety of planes like Shin's F-20, Micky's F-100, Saki's Kfir, the CGAF Harriers..etc. And the ending was awesome, since almost everyone died. As for the more recent TV series, i think it is more like a publicity for Nikon..thats what Shinjo is for. The music is not too bad and at times don't seem to fit into the action. And IMO the show seems more politically corrected compared with the OAV. For instance you have way less blood(from pilot deaths), no towel heads, no Kfir fighter, an annoying Kitori and so on. The only good thing is the slightly better dogfight sequence. I think this is a missed oppurtunity since they could have build on the older show by introducing new stuff like Shin's X-29, Project 4 bad guys, more of the old characters from the manga. I have not seen Red Prowling Devil but an early impression suggest a well drawn overrated MiG-29 with some hentai thrown in.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 5, 2005 Author Posted March 5, 2005 ITs a bit of fan service bu the story was uninteresting in comparison to area 88. IT centers around someone being the red devil, some sort of ace that hunts down other pilots. And this red devil is supposed to be some sort of genius in the air. Not too impressed, its too cliche. The aircraft however are drawn well. Area88, the manga had a very unique style. I love Shintani's work, his love of airplanes definitely comes out in his work. I just saw some episodes of the new area88. I was IMPRESSED! I like the music, the dogfighting is AWESOME(I honestly did not expect much), and the CRUSADER was truly impressive!! It was so awesome seeing one of the oldies given their due FINALLY in an anime. Didn't expect Shin to get shot down so soon, so its good that he isnt the uberpowerful superman of this series. Simon is badass. My main gripes are that the F-14 is almost always shown in full forward sweep(from what I saw) and the cockpits are all opaque. I question the HUDs being on some older jets but someone said the old dude basically hooks everyone up. Seeing Mick use the tomcat in dumb bomb bombcat configuration was AWESOME! Anyone notice he's got similar color pallette with roy focker? Interesting.
Skull Leader Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 what's wrong with a Tomcat with it's wings deployed? (how I like it best), and it may be accurate on one count... one of the big things in the series is that the pilots want to save fuel because of money, so you can bet the pilots try to ensure an economical flight whenever possible... so the Tomcat probably has the engines throttled back whenever it can.
Mislovrit Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 A88 manga question, didn't both sides (especially the mercs.) of the war use whatever planes they can get their hands on; or was it western made for one side vs. Russian made for the other like in the TV series?
hellohikaru Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 Shin got shot down quite early in the OAV as well and he actually fell to a Atoll from a CGAF MiG-21. And if you think Shin is even less of a superman in the new TV series wait till you see the part where he consistently shot down air to air missiles with guns! I think even Kitori gets to do this! Micky using bombs also doesn't fit in with the story that he is the 3rd best attack pilot from behind. That guys usually provides air cover. Its disappointing that the new Area 88 had so many perspective problems as well as that cheapsy opaque canopy effect..which weren't noticable in the old OAV. Mislovit As far as i can tell the RAMAF uses western types consistently in the manga while the CGAF uses mostly soviet type though they did use types like the Harrier and F-18.
David Hingtgen Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 ::long post shortened:: A Tomcat with its wings out is burning a lot of fuel. Throttling back doesn't really help nor does going slower. If it did, the airlines wouldn't be running their planes at 90% thrust for hours on end. If it's a jet, it's going to be most fuel efficient at about Mach .8 and 80-90% power. From a private jet to an F-15 to a 747.
Nied Posted March 5, 2005 Posted March 5, 2005 (edited)  Thanks for the IRIAF aircraft pics, Nied. But much if not all of what I was able to find about them seems to trace back to Tom Cooper, the rest from official Iranian claims and boasts. I'm not saying that he lacks integrity, but I wonder how much about these aircraft, and the Iranian aviation industry in general, is known publicly outside of reports by him and public announcements out of Iran. Most of the info I posted came direct form Globalsecurity. I've also re-discovered an article in Air FOrces monthly today that covers most of the same ground (it does mis-identify the Azarakhsh as an exact F-5 copy, which it obviously is not). I skipped over thier indeginous helicopters and non-combat aircraft. Something I realized going over Iran's aircraft manufacturing efforts is how much effort they are putting into training. Most of their designs or modifications have been for training purposes. They've modified most of their F-5s into two seat trainers, they were working on building a knock off of a Pilatus PC-7 before Pilatus sued the Iranian government over it (having normalized relations has it's advantages), they're about to fly a prototype for their new jet trainer called the Ra'd, they've built several kinds of UAVs for training purposes (mostly target practice), and finnally they have put considerable effort into building training rounds for all of thier air launched weapons. Given how much effort Iran is putting into bilding implements for training their pilots, I can't see how they wouldn't be expected to use them. I doubt we'd be facing un-trained pilots who fly only once a year. Elsewhere you wrote that I was forgetting that cruise missiles are expended as they are used. Actually, that occurred to me, but each sortie by an aircraft also entails expending resources. To properly compare cruise missiles and, say, an F/A-22, you would need to factor in the expected cost of an F/A-22 sortie, including:  * Risk of loss of aircraft and/or crew multiplied by the cost of replacing same   * Fuel   * Munitions   * Turnaround costs (time, manpower, spare parts)   * Aircrew turnaround time. Pilots need to rest at some point. I don't really have a handle on any of these, to be honest, but it might be an interesting exercise if you, I, or anyone else has the time. Another factor to consider is political cost: Raptors need bases near the area of operations, which may be troublesome for the host country. There is also the vulnerability of the bases to attack by ballistic or cruise missiles carrying either conventional or NBC warheads. The platforms for both naval and air launched cruise missiles are less vulnerable to this sort of threat, due to mobility, concealment, greater strike range, or a combination. Well that's more of a critisism of manned aircraft in general and not just the F/A-22. What's at question here is wether we need an air dominance platform to clear the skies for whatever maned (or un-maned) strike platforms we see fit to send into a conflict, or if we can rely on our strike planes to defend themselves. Edited March 5, 2005 by Nied
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 6, 2005 Author Posted March 6, 2005 ITs more of preference for me, I mean a tomcat has autosweep, but due to this being a TV series, I assume the animators had no time to do sweeps, though they really should have. I also notice Shin has an F-5E rather than an F-20. For what its worth I think the new seires is a good anime I only saw a clip o the old. But I really want to see it. and I have read a decent amount of the manga. I also went with my parents to a BX today, and I got the Dragon 1/72 F-15C. It is AWESOME. So much heft. Parts fit is MUCH better than my F-16C(secure canopy/airbreaks). Finish is nice, and overall I am very happy with it. I also went to a KB toys outlet, and scored myself a plastic YF-23 1/72 scale. Retractable gear, definitely toyetic but for what its worth its not that bad, good quality, and good detail for 5$. For that price you really can't go wrong, and plus I mean hey I can zoom this thing around the apartment without worrying about breaking or having to recement stuff. Plus has a nice lil stand too.
hellohikaru Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 In the good old OAV Shin starts with the F-8E guns entirely for kills, then to the F-5E before the traitor Phoenix Charlie(flying an F-16A) guns him down. Making his way back he finally gets the F-20A which is the third and final type we see in his colors. He also flew the Kfir once in the airliner rescue mission. In the manga he even had an F-29A FSW!! If you haven't seen the old OAV, then you are missing out. Saki flies the kfir, a much better operation Tightrope(more detailed), Greg's A-10 and lots of vulcan gun action by the evil Nguyen Van Chom in his Thud.
Mislovrit Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 Shin did fly in a Draken for a little while in the manga.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 6, 2005 Author Posted March 6, 2005 Okay. Watched more of the first episode. SHin KICKS ass in the sader. Truly doin the old hotrod some justice. His brake and accelerate manuever to trick the overspeeding mig was pretty cool, tons better and more realistic looking than what Maverick did in Top gun. Mick Simon is a ton more bad ass than I thought. I like how he beat the shi* out of the photographer. That dude ends up helping find the mystery sniper though, so I guess he has purpose later on. Seeing skyhawks, drakens and phantoms kick ass. I love vietnam era planes. The dogfights are pretty intense, this is definitely good stuff. I imagine the OVA is tons better and hopefully I can track down old copies at the exchange. Yamato or dragon should make some diecast 1/72 Area88 models. I am itching for Simon's tomcat and Shin's sader. [i love the shark mouth intake. I was impressed by the gunnery sight in the F-8. Had no idea it could actually have a moving pipper, was this on the old one? I always thought it was stationary. Pretty cool though! Overall I like it even more. I even llike the music, somewhat fitting. I can't wait to watch more. I think I shall begin a quest on getting as much Area88 material as possible. The YF-23 was a selectable aircraft in the old SNES game(Un squadron in US). was it in the manga or old OVA at all? And btw, does anyone know if the YF-23 is bigger than the Fi15?Because my supposedly 1/72 diecast plastic 5$ YF-23 from Kb toys outlet, is only a little bit bigger than my dragon 1/72 F-16C, and definitely smaller than my recently purchased langley F-15C. Either way for 5$, I cannot really complain, it is a ton sleeker and more fine detailed than the other sky pilot previous releases by new ray? If you guys remember, this company makes supposed 1/72 diecast plastic planes, and they usually lack molded or attachable weapons. Their F-14 is notorious for having nice paint schemes, but a asymetrical wing sweep( I opened one up its a design and molding flaw that is to me irrepairable), and of course, only having have a cockpit., The new 2005 tomcats by new ray?( think that is the name) feature a retooled cockpit with 2 seats and a canopy long enough to be more accurate. Now the wing sweep I have no clue if it is fixed., I really hope so. The colors so far are the IRIAF offshoot tomcat, and NSAWC tomcat. Both F-14A's. The awesome thing about the previous releases was that there was a dark grey, high viz livery sundowners tomcat. Dark grey and red are very cool looking together. They also have some F-4's, a MIG-29, some F-16s/18s and F-15B's. I have the bicentenial 1975 F-15, and they just recently came out with the YF-23, YF22A, Blackbird(incorrect cockpit, you guys would cringe trust me, ERTL's was TON more accurate), and a small B-2. The F/A-18s look like the diecast testors F/A-18. The 1975 F-4 looks awesome, I should have picked that up. So, for 5$, you really can't go wrong., Kb is mostly a discount place noww, in KB outlet, I know these were buy 2 get 3rd free, not sure if this applies to the regular stores too. In the regular stores last month I would see some these sky pilot toys paired with an electronic joystick. To me I could careless I just want the planes! So these might be at the regular KB stores in single or double packs. The old packaging was blue clouds with black and the new one is an orangy yellowish color. Tey have retractable landing gear, so these are nothing like diecast metal dragons or Corgi's, you essentially get what you pay for, which is 5$. So as long as you can look past that, these are really decent toys you can mess around with or display on their stands. I tend to think they are not really 1/72, more like 1/80 scale.
David Hingtgen Posted March 6, 2005 Posted March 6, 2005 Real YF-23's are huge like a Flanker. IMHO most diecast planes are a bit too big for their "official" scale. I'll see what I can find about F-8 gunsights. And yes F-8's can decelerate very well, they have HUGE airbrakes. (As does the A-7)
hellohikaru Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 The Crusader's gun pipper does float and should have adjustable depression. http://www.cloudnet.com/~djohnson/manning.htm Crusader J57 sound file. btw UN Squadron/Area 88 snes had the Firefox in it as well which is absolutely vital for the last mission. Damn that game was hard. Also in the old OAV Micky was a cool person and was actually friendly towards Rocky(the original combat journalist) in the beginning(i was starting to think he was gay or something ). And yeah the A-7 had an even larger(longer) airbrake than the F-8. It can't be fully deployed on the ground.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 7, 2005 Author Posted March 7, 2005 wait firefox from teh clint eastwood movie? WHoa!! So were all the planes in Un squadron, in the manga? Im itching to know who piloted the YF-23. And di MIcky ever get the F-14D or was he always with the F-14A? I like how he had a hun in the OVA. That plane is pretty cool.
hellohikaru Posted March 7, 2005 Posted March 7, 2005 No...YF-23 and the Firefox(Efreet) were SNES-only specials. And Micky flew the A model only since the D was not produced when the original manga was conceived. Yeah Micky and probably other merc pilots had F-100s, F-5s, A-4s and others.
David Hingtgen Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 News(not really): http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,12500282-1243,00.html JSF over budget and behind schedule. USD$125million each now. (they seem to switch between Austrailian and US dollars often in the article) Boy, I'm glad we're buying those instead of EXPENSIVE planes like the F-22... PS---RN also not happy, retiring the Sea Harrier starting to look like a bad idea, since there's now going to be a several year gap that the Gr.9 simply isn't going to be able to fill. And not that the latest RN carrier design has been going well either...
ewilen Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 If that's true, then the JSF is dead, dead, dead, and I'll dance on its grave. But the story itself has problems, such as saying that the JSF's price has increased "23 per cent to $125.5 million each". If that were so, then the previous price would be $102 million. Maybe they're mixing up the JSF and the Raptor. Checking further, nearly all the reports are from a reporter named Ian Ian McPhedran. A report by Mark Forbes clarifies Lockheed's side of the story: A spokesman for manufacturer Lockheed Martin denied suggestions the $50 million cost to Australia for each fighter could more than double. The US report about cost increases related to development costs, not the final plane price tag and the rises would not be passed on to Australia, he said. (Source)These stories show that the GAO report in question was actually critical of both the Raptor and the JSF programs: http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/11041813.htm http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0305/030705cdpm1.htm http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/n...on/11045397.htm The actual report can be found at these links: Highlights in PDF format Full report in PDF format Full report in text format (no graphics) I'm going to take a look at it right now.
hellohikaru Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 I always wondered why did they take the Sea Harrier FA2 out other than to save cost. Even when the GR.9 comes online it lacks the Blue Vixen and Slammers the FA2 already has. I doubt they could stop the JSF now even if the prices continue to soar beyond 125 million.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 10, 2005 Author Posted March 10, 2005 Yea the JSF is far along in terms of design and testing and such. Guys, I mounted the fuel tanks from my dragon 57th TFS F-16C onto my Dragon 1stTFW F-15C. It looks pretty cool. Anyhoo i was wondering, is this possible to do on the actual planes? Also, are bombs mountable on the wing pylons of the dragon F-15E? That is my fav eagle, and the bombLESS CFT's are incredibly dissapointing, but if I can get some GBU's on the wing pylon, I might be happy. Also, how are the Corgi swap gear tornado's, phantoms, and harriers? I am interested in those. Though I keep hearing on other boards that dragon is the best, but right now they either focus on WWII birds, teen fighters and beyond, hopefully they give the phantom and crusader some love, until then the corgi's could keep me occupied.
Coota0 Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 The only way the JSF is going anywhere is if the wings start falling off the damned things.
David Hingtgen Posted March 10, 2005 Posted March 10, 2005 F-16 tanks are F-16-specific. Most drop tanks are. The only one I know of that isn't, is the later-style F-4 centerline tank and the F-15, they use the same 600-gallon tank--it's a "standard large tank for large twin-engine MDC fighters". Bombs should fit on the DW F-15E wing pylons, don't know for certain. On the other boards, they only like DW because of the lack of screws and paint IMHO, if you really look Dragon accuracy is no better than any other brand, despite people constantly talking about Dragon's "accuracy". I think "small engraved details and thin, fine panel lines" are a more accurate term than "accuracy". I own all the Corgi's you mentioned, here's my comments: Tornado: very nice, best Corgi there is. Main gear doors very difficult to position correctly in the open position though. Wings swing with a movable section to fill the gap! Only model plane I know of where "wings forward" won't leave a big hole behind the wing. Phantom: only accurate for an F-4C and possibly a UK one. Do not buy a US Navy one, it will be horribly inaccurate. As an F-4C, very nice, Tornado seems a bit better. Harrier: I only have Sea Harriers, but they're pretty nice, if a bit more "simple" than the others. Movable nozzles, canopy doesn't open, speed brake doesn't open (that's important for Harriers). I often go by the weapons, as Corgi weapons are permanent, and some are painted well enough, others are simply pure white. Landing gear/doors is very much like Dragon, but I always spend more time "scraping paint" etc to get the posts in the holes on a Corgi than a Dragon. Mainly I think because Corgi just puts a very thick layer of white paint on the gear.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 thanks for the comments david. The thing is, I hesitate to buy some of these sometimes since more than likely I will have to order them. I passed up the FOV tomcat, and now kind of regret it since it is the only metal 1/72 toyetic toy of a tomcat out there. Oh well its markers....ugh, geez no wonder tons of people disliked those things! I see what you are sayinbg about the nonexposed screw holes and such on the dragon warbirds, kind of gets me thinking that is why the mudhen has NO bumb attachments, and why the eagles cannot mount AMRAAMS on the fueselage, since there would either be holes or pints sticking out in clean mode. Either way I am sure dragon could figure out something, maybe swappable fueselage panels? The new FOV stuff is pretty interesting. 1/72 swap gear WWII planes, and 1/32 scale WWII planes with retractable gear and other things. Not to mentiong I didn't see any markers~!! THe F-14A they have on the FOV site in VF-41 black aces colors, looks really clean and has a better appearance than their previous version. Anyone know if this black aces tomcat is coming out? And anyone have the matchbox 1/72 diecasts? The hun and starfighter look cool, though I tend to keep my planes in flight position, I do dislike how they do not have swap gear. Their MIG-15 is too dirty for my tastes though.
hellohikaru Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 I notice many of the corgi's have opaque canopies Do they have any SHarrier FRS2/FA2 ?
David Hingtgen Posted March 11, 2005 Posted March 11, 2005 Sea Harriers are 1980's, nothing later. I have the Matchbox F-104's, due to there being no other 1/72 F-104 to get. Nice enough, and for $12 at Target, hard to complain. The bare-metal F-104 is actually two different shades, not simply "silver all over".
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted March 11, 2005 Author Posted March 11, 2005 I am thinking about getting some of the HUNs from matchbox. Plane is intriguing me. Maybe because it was Micky Simon's bird at one point. That and I am finding that I rarely put my dragon's in gear down position. Also a WARNING!! To those of you who are considering purchasing ANY Dragon F-15.... BEWARE~! I was remoing the canopy today, but the part that the windshield plugs into, the forward cockpit panel, SNAPPED off and stayed on the canopy!! This is due to the fact that the canopy plug has a tight fit with the cockpit panel. And I just epoxied but I have a feeling it will not be strong enough to do multiple canopy swaps. I barely use open canopy anyways, so it does not bother me as much as it may bother some of you, but it is irritating that something broke. Turns out the peg that keeps the cockpit panel in place is just plane ABS< and not diecast!! UGH.
hellohikaru Posted March 12, 2005 Posted March 12, 2005 This is nice build of Shin's Crusader as depicted during the attack of the large depot. http://homepage3.nifty.com/YODASHP/f8f.htm
David Hingtgen Posted March 25, 2005 Posted March 25, 2005 Finally some news to post... Elmendorf is going to be the 2nd base to get F/A-22's, after Langley. http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-742601.php Interesting, I wonder how replacing Strike Eagles with Raptors will work out. "Half the load, twice the ingress speed" has never really seemed to be an objective for bomb-delivery... I would have figured Kadena or Osan, not Elmendorf of all places...
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