Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 5, 2004 Author Posted December 5, 2004 I think the A-4Su lacks afterburner though, so the F-5E might still have a supersonic advantage...though by all means if the superhawk has beter acceleration it might be able to beat the F-5E. Hands down though the similar powered F-20 w/afterburner would probably decimate both.
David Hingtgen Posted December 5, 2004 Posted December 5, 2004 (edited) A-4Su has no afterburner, thus basically the same engine as the F-117---I doubt it's THAT fast or has THAT good acceleration. It's actually less powerful than the "old" engine in the A-4M. (Far better fuel/reliability and weighs less, much like the F404 vs J79--but raw power is less) F-5E is sleek as hell, the YF-5A could supercruise. Edited December 5, 2004 by David Hingtgen
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 6, 2004 Author Posted December 6, 2004 ah i see. Did you guys ever see the trainer version of the A-4SU? It is awesome. It looks weird but I am a fan of those dual stairstep cockpits. Anyone see the trailer for the IMAX red flag movie? it is SWEET. Precision flying probably better in air cinematics than topgun. And I doubt it is scripted. The germans and israeli;s are in there too, with tornados and wild weasel barak F-16D''s (one of my favs).
Coota0 Posted December 6, 2004 Posted December 6, 2004 Do you have a website with some info, I'd love to see it, but I'm in Lubbock, Tx (not quiet the ass end of the world but definatly the lower intestine, but hey we got Buddy Holly and Waylon Jennings) for grad school and there's only one IMAX. I may get to see it (hopefully) when I go home for Christmas (near Dallas) does anybody know when it starts?
Coota0 Posted December 6, 2004 Posted December 6, 2004 Info Never mind it opens Dec. 2nd Found this if anyone is interested
GunnerX Posted December 6, 2004 Posted December 6, 2004 Guys have we gotten any more news about the YF-23 being refurbished for the RB competition? Did grumman really take it out to refurbish or was it just taken out to be put in a museum? "Northrop Grumman's long-abandoned YF-23A advanced tactical fighter (ATF) leaves museum and could be heading for bomber contest on which we reported last week. The company recently retrieved the second of the two YF-23A "Black Widow II" prototypes from the Western Museum of Flight in Hathorne, California. Officially the aircraft will be used for a air fair in August. However, the restoration is also thought to include several changes, including new cockpit displays and other possible cosmetic modifications. Northrop Grumman confirms restoration is taking place, but declines to comment on whether the revived YF-23A is linked to any USAF proposal. But sources close to the studies, say Northrop Grumman now includes a YF-23-based "regional" bomber concept among its raft of proposals. The distinctive, rhomboid-winged YF-23A lost out to Lockheed Martin's YF-22 in the ATF competition in 1991, but proved a valuable technology testbed for Northrop Grumman, which gave it all-aspect stealth. The company says it "drew upon a wide range of experience for its response to the interim bomber RFI, and the YF-23 is one". WhhheEeeeee! But this WAS reported July this year.. can't seem to find any updates.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 6, 2004 Author Posted December 6, 2004 Yea I couldn't find any updates either. I'm currently trying to confirm whether or not it is actually being used for RFB competition. since some sites say yes while others are not sure.
Retracting Head Ter Ter Posted December 6, 2004 Posted December 6, 2004 (edited) I asked some RSAF pilots and I seemed to get the impression that the A-4S can outclimb the F-5E and out-accelerate in the lower speed range. The engines spool up faster too. Edited December 6, 2004 by Retracting Head Ter Ter
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 8, 2004 Author Posted December 8, 2004 Seems to me, the tiger would have to do a com,bination of zooming high and diving like hell at a steep angle to take on the A-4SU. Me myself, I like the F-5 Tigereye armed recon fighter. It looks aweosme with that weird nose. My fav production variant tiger. Tigershark is tons better though. Anyone see the MIG-29M2? Acig.org got some pics. It looks TONS better than the MIG-29UB. I mean the M2 is a 2 seater but has a longer nose than the UB and it actually looks right. Very menacing and beautiful.
Coota0 Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 I know we've all seen the YF-23 and F-22. But I was watching tv earlier and they said there were 15 designs submitted for the ATF program. Anybody seen the 13 designs?
David Hingtgen Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 I've seen about 7, from a combination of YF-22 and YF-23 articles. Only about 4 others were "normal", all the rest weren't even accepted for detailed proposals---usually massively complex aircraft, like 100,000lb Mach 3 swing-wing monsters. The original Lockheed and General Dynamic designs were ugly IMHO, though there was also neat rather F-16XL-like stealth---delta with a serrated trailing edge. The final 4 designs (Lockheed, MDC, Northrop, and Boeing) were accepted, and it would be so expensive to make prototypes that the 4 companies formed into 2 teams--Boeing/Lockheed, and Northrop/McDonnellDouglas. PS---as you might guess, Boeing submitted a big-mouth X-32-like proposal---one huge intake feeding both engines. SOMEBODY at Boeing really likes ugly intakes... Thankfully Lockheed "won" that part and the YF-22 had normal intakes. PPS--of all, the YF-23 ended up closest to the original proposal. The YF-22 originally looked more like an F-117N. Ugly, but not as ugly as Boeing's... Truly ironically, the Lockheed YF-22 looks most like the final MDC F-15 concept, before it was made into the F-15 we have today. YF-22's still a generation behind IMHO...
hellohikaru Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 Yeah the MiG-29M2 or MRCA has the nose of the normal MiG-29. Looks like it is not doing too well with the likes of the Su-30/F-16D. The RF-5E is a rare bird indeed. Only 12 were built. The Saudis have 10 and Malaysia bought 2. Singapore converted some of its regular F-5E to that configuration.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 9, 2004 Author Posted December 9, 2004 RF-5E is awesome since it still retains gun and other armnaments. Real nice looking. I saw a lot of the ATF proposals and They look way different than what was actually produced. Still no sign of ASF-14 pics aside that one time I either saw it in a mag or forum. MAN it's not even on MATS!!!! Hey guys I'm busy with finals, but want to see a F-8 modernized update design I came up with? I got it in my head btu I can sketch tomorrow and scan and post here if you all would like. I know from what knight said it would require massive adjustments but I figure hell it would look cool, so I mineswell post it here someday.
arrow Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 any news on the osprey? It's been in the test phase for such a long time.
Smiley424 Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 I heard they're still having problems with the flight control systems on the Osprey. The whole tilt-rotor mechanism seems to be more problematic than originally envisioned. I'm not up to snuff on my aviation news (honestly, this post is what keeps me up to date on most things involving aviation actually ). Someone with more knowledge on the subject could clarify for me.
Skull Leader Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) RF-5E is awesome since it still retains gun and other armnaments. Real nice looking.I saw a lot of the ATF proposals and They look way different than what was actually produced. Still no sign of ASF-14 pics aside that one time I either saw it in a mag or forum. MAN it's not even on MATS!!!! Hey guys I'm busy with finals, but want to see a F-8 modernized update design I came up with? I got it in my head btu I can sketch tomorrow and scan and post here if you all would like. I know from what knight said it would require massive adjustments but I figure hell it would look cool, so I mineswell post it here someday. errr, M.A.T.S has a page devoted to it....... here it is Edited December 9, 2004 by Skull Leader
HWR MKII Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 the V22 osprey basically is being retested from the beginning because they had to rip out and redesign the whole hydraulic system. guess the marines finally got tired of them falling out of the sky fully loaded.
Lynx7725 Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 errr, M.A.T.S has a page devoted to it....... here it is Man, seeing that page brings back memories.. I hope somebody will pick up the Super Tomcat programs, that bird is too mean to let go into the sunset like this..
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 9, 2004 Author Posted December 9, 2004 Skull Leader, That only shows the ST21. ASF-14 looks completely different. Barely anyone I know of has even seen it. I wish I could remember where I saw it though. It looks like swing wing stealth delta. It have to have been the most expensive and different looking compared to other tomcats.
ewilen Posted December 9, 2004 Posted December 9, 2004 A quick read of what I found through Google suggests that the ASF-14 would have looked pretty much like the F-14 (i.e., not much more different than the (A)ST-21) even though the internals would have been so different as to preclude upgrades and require entirely new aircraft to be built. You might be thinking of the navalized Raptor proposal pictured here: http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0132.shtml
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 9, 2004 Author Posted December 9, 2004 Ewilen, that's not it either. I am aware of the NATF and think it is lovely. Same with ST21. However ASF-14, I only saw the blueprint linework of it, and it had enlarged/extended gloves, and a nose that flowed with it, so when swept wings back, it looked more like a delta more so than it does now. It definitely had stealth characteristics. The ST21 looks more conventional than it.
ewilen Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Ah. Best I can find is this: http://web.archive.org/web/20030504171309/...-1/Asf-14cp.jpg From a now-dead page whose link was titled "Cockpit mockup of the ASF-14". I've emailed the owner of the site asking if he has any other photos, and if he does, I'll be sure to post them.
Knight26 Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 (edited) Drools, that is one pretty cockpit, the Tomcat 21 would have rocked. Edited December 10, 2004 by Knight26
hellohikaru Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 (edited) Shin Your description of how it looks made me think of the proposed naval version of F-117 but i guess that is not it. Any idea how the air intakes look like ? Perhaps ASF-14 looked like this ? Edited December 10, 2004 by hellohikaru
Coota0 Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Skull Leader, That only shows the ST21. ASF-14 looks completely different. Barely anyone I know of has even seen it. I wish I could remember where I saw it though. It looks like swing wing stealth delta. It have to have been the most expensive and different looking compared to other tomcats. When pigs fly
hellohikaru Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Iran has their own trainer. Expect to see them to developed it into a full fledged fighter.
Vespaeda Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 wHAT THE HECK IS THA? People in America poo-poo Iran, based on 25+ yrs of televised images of jeering political students, the US hostages and all the fundamentalist cleric rhetoric that followed, not to mention there long war w/Iraq. That is an nation, along with a handful of others(India, Pakistan, Brazil) will wield quite a bit of techno-intellectual infrastructure and innovation in the next 15 yrs. I think they will be the nations that might show the west how to incorporate fuel cells and other revolutionary items into daily life.
Nied Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Ewilen, that's not it either. I am aware of the NATF and think it is lovely. Same with ST21. However ASF-14, I only saw the blueprint linework of it, and it had enlarged/extended gloves, and a nose that flowed with it, so when swept wings back, it looked more like a delta more so than it does now. It definitely had stealth characteristics. The ST21 looks more conventional than it. What you describe sounds more like something I read in an issue of Air forces monthly once that really took the whole pro-Tomcat/anti-Hornet thing to it's most ridiculous extreme. It advocated completely halting Super hornet production and then pulling every Tomcat out of the boneyard putting F119s with TVC into them, and re-shaping the nose to make it stealthy (how this would be accomplished was never made clear, perhaps several layers of putty). Despite putting an new engine avionics and comletely changing a a good portion of the sructure this was supposed to be cheap. Frankly it was that and another piece about replacing the Super Hornet with Su-33s that made me take most of what I read in Air forces monthly with a mountain sized grain of salt. It was my impression that the ST21 would be more of the Tomcat equivelent of the Super Hornet, externally it would be largely similar but internally it would be quite new (should have made it easier to maintain, though I find MATS claims that it would still be cheaper dubious).
Nied Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Iran has their own trainer. Expect to see them to developed it into a full fledged fighter. It looks similar to some of the new Russian trainer designs like the Yak-130, Mig-AT. I don't know if this has to do with Russian assistance, copying of the Russian designs, or the Iranaians just thought along the same lines. Given the secrecey of the iranian aircraft industry all three are equally likely.
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 10, 2004 Author Posted December 10, 2004 Well It was either in a magazine or a website. It may have been a dedication magazine to the tomcat in 2003, I am not sure. I do not think it is what you mentioned Nied. although I am aware of the issue you speak of with flankers replacing super bugs. ST-21 and quickstrike would have minimal external changes, but internally would give it nuke capability, more weapons stores, and be more like a naval F-15E equivalent. ASF-14 is the design which was the most radical and could NOT be made from existing F-14A's unlike the above models I mentioned. It was also the most expensive. Put it this way. ST-21 was the best tomcat, for better bang for the buck. ASF-14 was if the navy wanted near ATF capability for a cheaper price than the F-22. Quickstrike was a simplified ST-21. Where as ST-21 had fowler flaps and such, ASF-14 had a totally different looking front fuesalage and glove area.
Lynx7725 Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 (edited) Haha.. can you imagine it? A USN Carrier Wing comprising of: Interceptor Squadrons with ST-14s Attack Squadrons with Quickstrike F-14s Electronic Warfare with EF-14s etc. with F-14 variants I start to drool. EDIT: changed ASF-14s to Quickstrike F-14s. Edited December 10, 2004 by Lynx7725
Nied Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Well It was either in a magazine or a website. It may have been a dedication magazine to the tomcat in 2003, I am not sure. I do not think it is what you mentioned Nied. although I am aware of the issue you speak of with flankers replacing super bugs. ST-21 and quickstrike would have minimal external changes, but internally would give it nuke capability, more weapons stores, and be more like a naval F-15E equivalent. ASF-14 is the design which was the most radical and could NOT be made from existing F-14A's unlike the above models I mentioned. It was also the most expensive. Put it this way. ST-21 was the best tomcat, for better bang for the buck. ASF-14 was if the navy wanted near ATF capability for a cheaper price than the F-22. Quickstrike was a simplified ST-21. Where as ST-21 had fowler flaps and such, ASF-14 had a totally different looking front fuesalage and glove area. WHile I'm aware of the diferences between the ST-21 and ASF-14 I haven't seen anything describing them as being as extreme as you have. From what I have seen (mainly on MATS) the ASF-14 was to be a new build F-14 incorperating some stealth features (I took this to mean re-designed panels and edge alignment combined with judicous use of RAM like on the Super Hornet, not a new forward fuselage).
Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0 Posted December 10, 2004 Author Posted December 10, 2004 Nied, from the pic I saw, I can see why it could never be made from existing F-14.s The ASF-14 was really a whole new beast onto itself. It's lke giving the ST21 a facelift. The super hornet looks like amn updated legacy hornet in some way. However the ASF-14 truly comes off as a whole new plane, that could in fact pass as not even related to the tomcat. Extended gloves, made the nose look a whole lot shorter. It did resemble some of the early swing wing lockheed JAST proposals before it became JSF, but the ASF-14 was very very unique in its own way. Ewilen did the site owner get back to you with more pics of the ASF-14?
Nied Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 Again that sound exactly like the AFM article and less like the descriptions of the ASF-14 I've heard. I haven't really heard much in the way of officail or semi-official sources describing upgrades as extensive as you descirbe (other than idle message board scuttlebut).
hellohikaru Posted December 10, 2004 Posted December 10, 2004 What are the JMSDF's prospect of operating AV-8B Plus(AV-8J) jump jets from its so called large helicopter destroyer ?
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