Aircraft VS super thread!

[Anubis]

OMG, that's the first time I've seen the CFT's on an actual jet. Those things are HIDEOUS.

[HWR MKII]

it looks like the 16 has some kind of growth on its back that the crew chief doesnt know how to remove.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

kaouru shintai is brilliant. I appluad him for doing an air combat manga. Most significiant in japan I believe. There is another manga out right now. didn't recieve that much attention, but it is called "Red Devil". It's about some ace mercenary pilot I believe, I didn't know what was going on in the manga, I read it mainly because the fighters in there were rendered so well! Mainly airforce and land based fighters, (Mirage 2000, MIG-29, SU-27/37, KFIR, F-16, F-15, F-22). I believe the girl (red devil) mainly flies a MIG-29. I couldn't believe someone was actually making a new jet manga with REALISTICALLY DRAWN FIGHTERS!! Note the last manga with fighter planes was Area88 and that was years ago. But still good.

[Commander McBride]

I don't mind the look of the CFTs too much. They, along with the spine, give the plane a sort of muscular look.

[Skull Leader]

Anyone see the F-2 +? Or something like that, it was in a japanese ad at a aerospace show overseas and had a bunch of armnaments as well as CFT's as well. Well doesn't look too good for the F-2's future anyways as it seems the japanese govt is not too happy with their FSX and says the F-15J can do the same job for less money, so they cancelld some orders for the F-2.

Yeah, the stopped production at just under 100 planes. the 6th Squadron at Tsuiki AFB were the latest ones to recieve them. Make no mistake, the JASDF will squeeze every ounce of service out of their very expensive toys (you could buy something like 2-3 F-15Js for the cost of a single F-2A/B), they just won't be making more (at least no time soon, they can still make spare parts for them though).

CFTs and Tail-spines on F-16s really ruin the design I think.

[HWR MKII]

the tail spine isnt so bad. it gives the acft more avionics space and 4 more slots for anti missile countermeasures giving it room for 8 mods of chaff/flare instead of the usual 4.

the cft package is a gross afterthought though. there are alot of ways they could have streamlined it a bit more. they are huge compared to the wing tanks it carries and look like they could only be used realistically in a long distance transport situation. they look too big to be combat worthy. i know they were designed to be used in combat but it doesnt look like the fighter can manuver as well.

at least the CFT package on the 15 E allows it to carry 12 more munitions and has components for other systems other than fuel. the CFT also is capable for use in dogfighting but the 15 has room for it. on the 16 they look like the equavilent of putting a huge coffee can muffler tip on a ford escort. it may look cool and serve its purpose but is it really needed or could it have been done better?

the F2? isnt that the mitsubishi that looks like someone too the tail of an F4 and put a different airframe on it? i remember seeing some pics of it somewhere but i cant remember now. time for a yahoo search.

Edited December 1, 2004 by HWR MKII

[Knight26]

I don't mind the look of the CFTs too much. They, along with the spine, give the plane a sort of muscular look.

*shakes head* They look fugly and worse then that the look to comprise the perfomance too much to be of any value, wake up boyo "muscular" looking planes rarely perform well.

[Commander McBride]

I don't mind the look of the CFTs too much. They, along with the spine, give the plane a sort of muscular look.

*shakes head* They look fugly and worse then that the look to comprise the perfomance too much to be of any value, wake up boyo "muscular" looking planes rarely perform well.

I just was speaking of the look. Also, I did check them out from some other angles, while they look OK from the sides, they really do look like crap from above.

Some muscular planes perform quite well. How about the F-14, the F-15, or the MiG-31?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I don't think the MIG-31 has too many bragging rights. F-14 and F-15 don't need CFT's, F-15 DOES use them but it doesn't take too much away and blends in real well to the point where it's not too noticable.

F-14 and F-15 got bragging rights for TONS of stuff. Especially the F-14 in iranian hands. I mean the western world lists total kills for the tomcat as 4-5(4Su/MIG, 1 helicopter) but in terms of the iranians they have obtained far more kills, its sad that even in iran proper documentation to confirm these are hard to find. That one new boook by osprey sheds a lot of light on it though, Too bad it's hard for me to find.

[ewilen]

The information I've found in the F-16 CFT's claims they have a minimal effect on performance. I remember something like 1% increase in drag, still able to do 9G's, pilot can't tell if they're there without looking over his shoulder. Now, maybe it's all lies, but that's what the official line is.

[ewilen]

It'd be interesting to know how many kills the Iranians claim for their other planes. I'm not discounting the information that been repeated here about the Iranian F-14's but on the other hand I wouldn't be surprised if there was some inflation in their reporting. Are the Iranian F-14 kills corroborated by Iraqi reports?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Rule of thumb: more than the iranian govt will admit, less than the 100+klill ratio by numerous sources. The iranian govt for a number of reasons doesn't really say how manyh, they admit to only a fraction of the confirmrd kills for it for whatever reason. The iraqi's don't like admitting they were shot down by it, but they do like saying how they shot down 2 with Mirage F.1'S. I believe acig.org had the official kill tallies from both sides.

The iraqi's did coin phrases for the tomcat though, like signals to avoid and whatnot, and some pilots from desert storm say they never worried about mig attacks(intruder/corsair crews) since the iraqi's always turned tail once they had the AWG-9 warning on their RWR.

But basically with iranian tomcat kills its really hard to tell who is right at all. But some pilots I believe did contact acig.org with their accounts with some kills. But as it stands I believe the most highly used fighter of that war was the F-4.

[hellohikaru]

kaouru shintai is brilliant. I appluad him for doing an air combat manga. Most significiant in japan I believe. There is another manga out right now. didn't recieve that much attention, but it is called "Red Devil". It's about some ace mercenary pilot I believe, I didn't know what was going on in the manga, I read it mainly because the fighters in there were rendered so well! Mainly airforce and land based fighters, (Mirage 2000, MIG-29, SU-27/37, KFIR, F-16, F-15, F-22). I believe the girl (red devil) mainly flies a MIG-29. I couldn't believe someone was actually making a new jet manga with REALISTICALLY DRAWN FIGHTERS!! Note the last manga with fighter planes was Area88 and that was years ago. But still good.

I never heard of Red Devil before...it must be quite recent. I am surprised there are Kfir fighters in it as the last Area 88 tv series went for a more politcally correct approach. Then again this being a manga there is little need for to please certain people.

[Knight26]

I don't mind the look of the CFTs too much. They, along with the spine, give the plane a sort of muscular look.

*shakes head* They look fugly and worse then that the look to comprise the perfomance too much to be of any value, wake up boyo "muscular" looking planes rarely perform well.

I just was speaking of the look. Also, I did check them out from some other angles, while they look OK from the sides, they really do look like crap from above.

Some muscular planes perform quite well. How about the F-14, the F-15, or the MiG-31?

Your definition of muscular and mine must be very different, I do not see the F-14, F-15 as being "muscular" they are sleak and sexy. "Muscular" planes to me are you Mig-25/31 (fast but horrid manueverability), F-4s, Jaguars, TOrnadoes, etc...

[hellohikaru]

Shin

There really is a new jet fighter manga out there called "Red Prowling Devil" but it isn't by Shintani Kaoru but rather Shimizu Toshimitsu. The red MiG-29 looks cool.

Base of what i read there is an Indian AF pilot in the series called Shin. Now why are so many pilots called "Shin" ?

Edited December 2, 2004 by hellohikaru

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

oh THAT'S the title. Knew I said it too short!! I found it at my local comic store but now they are sold out after this sale they had(manga wasn't selling that well there).

I thnk I also found it at waldenbooks or barnes n nobles. The characters aren't too cartoony, and I honestly didn't care too much about the story(bout some mysterious enemy ace, I could already tell area88 had much better plot), but the way the planes are drawn, AMAZING!! so realistic too,.

[hellohikaru]

Check out some of the imaginery jet fighters in these websites

http://pws.prserv.net/ImaginaryFighters/

Be sure to click EVERY link or you will miss out something.

http://www.geocities.jp/matoba_h/3d_works/3d_works.htm

@shin densetsu

So you got Red Devil set already..is there an illustration where Naomi is lying on bed semi-nude ?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Oh i just flipped through never bought. There is nude and sex scenes with the girl in the manga though.

[Knight26]

HH are those fighters from the original Yukikaze illustrations, because they look great, wish they had used those instead of the ones in the anime.

[hellohikaru]

knight26

I don't know whether they are the original Yuki designs or not, there even is a modified cosmo tiger thrown in the mix.

[hellohikaru]

Guys

Have any of you read the book called "Warriors" written by Barrett Tillman. About some mercenary squadron hired by the Saudi goverment to protect them from Israel. The force Flies nothing but the F-20A Tigershark!

http://www.btillman.com/warriors.htm

Edited December 3, 2004 by hellohikaru

[Smiley424]

Sounds interesting but everytime I hear "Warriors" being mentioned, I can only think of some 80s movie about gangs killing each other "Warriors, come out and play".

Anyway, I was just watching History Channel show on the A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog) and I noticed how the Avenger cannon when fired sounds almost like the Gu-11 gunpod. I just thought that was neat.

Onto the actual topic now. If this has been brought up before, excuse me for not going back.through the entire thread

A-4 vs F-5 (whatever versions you guys think match closest campabilities wise)

In a close-in knife fight. I think the two are very evenly matched in this kind of battle.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

I think the F-5 would win. It's got the speed, so it's got enough excess energy to zoom or outturn the A-4. Now if it is an A-4 Mongoose, or A-4AR, then it gets a lil tricky but too my knowledge no A-4 is supersonic, and I would assume the F-5's got higher acceleration too.

[Coota0]

I'd give it to the F-5 also. The extra thrust is going to give the F-5 pilot a choice between a turning fight (I would avoid this) or an energy fight (I would go with this one)

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

If anything a F-20 would totally annhilate both, And did any of you see the preview for the IMAX red flag movie>? Looks AWESOME!! Film is sweet!

[hellohikaru]

The F-20's agility probably surpasses even that of the F-16C. Both accidents had nothing to do with the aircraft itself but rather G-LOC. This plane needs a g-limiter.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The F-20 is a sexy beast. Man if only the US cleared it for export and got more orders.......Man my country needs some serious help & I once heard they were inquiring about buying tigerhawks when sales were offered, but northrop did not get much so they called it off.

I wonder though, if sales could constitute it in export, could the F-20 possibly be brought back to the drawing boards and be put into production? I mean some countries, like the PHILIPPINES can't afford the falcon but the tigershark on the otherhand, some of the capability for a more "economical price"

Not to mention it is just awesome. I did read about those 2 accidents and NOONE faults the plane at all. (unlike some F-14 accidents).

[hellohikaru]

Only if the production numbers are enough to warrant its return. The avionics would also need an update.

Imagine an F-20C with AMRAAM capability, EJ2000 engine, latest cockpit and avionics.

Yeah shin the PAF should get those.

[David Hingtgen]

I think the F-20/X-29 tooling was destroyed--no orders, and no need for spares since they were all in museums by then.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Guys have we gotten any more news about the YF-23 being refurbished for the RB competition? Did grumman really take it out to refurbish or was it just taken out to be put in a museum?

[David Hingtgen]

Haven't heard a word. However:

1. It already had been refurbished for the Western Museum of Flight. There was no need to re-refurbish it.

2. It was supposed to get new avionics--upgrading original equipment isn't "restoration". (Though it did lose most of its original stuff--maybe they are just putting in the original stuff, or putting in the stuff the F-23A was to have, which is still more advanced than what the upcoming Super Hornet F's are getting) YF-23 had a cockpit made of standard F-15E/F-18 parts---like the rest of the systems.

Edited December 5, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

HMMMMMM. Man if they were putting in avionics, than obviously this thing wasn't just for DISPLAY!! Oh man I'm excited at the possibilities of this. And a upgrade to avionics can't possibly be too hard. I'd love to see a tandem seated YF-23RB replacing F-15E's and kicking arse as well. it would look so beautiful and you can tell by it's size that it would be an effective bomber,.

(hell it would be a better replacement for the tomcat than the superhornet is also lol)

[hellohikaru]

@David

Which one is the best F-20 kit available and how easy is it to find one ? I know of the 1/72 Hase, the 1/72 and 1/48 Monogram and the 1/144 Airfix. How they compare ?

[hellohikaru]

The ultimate Skyhawk is actually Singapore Aerospace's upgraded F404 powered A-4SU Super Skyhawk. It is said to be able to out accelerate the F-5E.

[hellohikaru]

Ever wondered what-if the RAF had F-15s ? or the Australians had 777 from President Schwazenegger ?

Check out the what-if Speculative Modelling Site

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/