Aircraft VS super thread!

[David Hingtgen]

Just some neat stuff:

VFA-103 Shornets demoing.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/655545/L/

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/655546/L

That's Boeing's big thing this year at all the high-end/industry demos---using "regular in-service" F-18F's, fully loaded, and doing the "Farnborough" demo, as well as including nearly all of the "Rafale-exclusive" (well, they used to be) moves. They're really trying to show that it can do this all the time, not just stripped down for an airshow like a Flanker. They keep upping the load--was 4 AMRAAM's, then 6, now 8. And always with 2 Sidewinders. Next they'll have to add drop-tanks or swap AMRAAM's for HARM's.

Interview with Capt. Snodgrass, F-14 pilot GOD:

http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/interview...s/index-pf.html

Trust me, you have seen pics of him flying F-14's, and probably read about stuff he's done. If it was cool/incredible/impossible, and involved an F-14, he was probably the pilot.

Edited September 8, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

the iranian kill ratio varies but one of the IIAF sites I went to lists more than a 100 kills. The iraqi's in desert storm were scared of taking on the tomcats so I assume that the iranians shot down a lot of iraqi planes with the tomcat. Also the famous 10 mile phoenix kill where the mig split in 2 due to the sheer momentum and impact of the phoenix missle from just 10 miles away/.

[Coota0]

If anyone is interested the F/A-18 is on Heavy Metal on the History Channel at 7 P.M. Central tonight.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys for a touch of different flavor.....lets do a russian aircraft debate!!!

1-Mig 1.44/42 vs SU-37

The new breed of Mig takes on sukhoi's super flanker. Who would win in a dogfight and intercept and air superiority role? Which is the bestter fighter?

2-Mig-I-2000 vs S-54/55

battle of the lightweight multiroles. A single engine flanker derivative against the potential russian JSF killer.

3-Mig -31 vs F-14

Just for fun. F-14 could outturn the sucker but cant outspeed it.

and YES I got these ideas from airforce delta strike which I have been playing.

[Kin]

I'm actually wondering what they are planning for wingdesigns... since everything is computer controlled like on the f117A... otherwise it will fall as a rock.

[hellohikaru]

1-Mig 1.44/42 vs SU-37

The new breed of Mig takes on sukhoi's super flanker. Who would win in a dogfight and intercept and air superiority role? Which is the bestter fighter?

2-Mig-I-2000 vs S-54/55

battle of the lightweight multiroles. A single engine flanker derivative against the potential russian JSF killer.

3-Mig -31 vs F-14

Just for fun. F-14 could outturn the sucker but cant outspeed it.

I actually hate that game AF Delta Strike because the missions are SO HARD and the idea of Piston engine fighters taking on jets is just plain silly.

Anyway for your comparisons its very hard to do an analysis as we don't much about the capabilities of the MFI and Su-55 in question.

1.44/42 vs Su-37

Its a hard one because we don't know how agile the MIG is and whether or not it has thrust vectoring..the bloody thing hasn't even flown YET. Does it have any weapons bay or even stealthy for that matter. I heard something about the MFI using active stealth by enveloping the airframe with generated plasma because as it is right now that thing is only stealthy in the mind of a true believer.

If the MFI(vs Su-37) is non stealthy with external stores and thrust vectoring then i guess it would up to pilot ability.

MIG-31 vs F-14 ?

Unless you are referring to the Firefox ...F-14 all the way although the MIG-31 might have a manuevering advantage at high altitude.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

it has flown. just not much. It did taxi trials and it did actually fly. I am thinking its speed is higher than the Super flanker and its manuverability...perhaps.

THey say the Mig I-2000 will have unparrareleled AOA and manuverability due to thrust vectoring and its perfect circle area along with wings for lift. This is supposed to take on JSF in export market and replace the Mig 29 in domestic and foreign markets.

in other news sukhoi is set to build russia's next gen premier fighter aircraft to replace the flanker./ Mig 1/44 was supposed to be a concept fighter envisioned to take over the mig 31

[Skull Leader]

Err. wasn't that what their S-37/Su-47 was supposed to be? or just a proof of concept?

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

prrof of concept. the next gen sukhoi is a new fighter altogether.

[Skull Leader]

wow... as wicked as the Berkut is, I hate to see what Sukhoi cooks up next!

[David Hingtgen]

Random photo post:

Ever wondered what happened to all the F-4's the US bought? No, not THAT many became AMRAAM targets. Most of them retired to Tuscon, AZ! Seriously:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/449326/L/

There's a few dozen Tomcats up top too, and some Harriers fairly low. But it's mainly several hundred (less than a thousand though, I THINK) Phantoms...

[Zentrandude]

Random photo post:

Ever wondered what happened to all the F-4's the US bought? No, not THAT many became AMRAAM targets. Most of them retired to Tuscon, AZ! Seriously:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/449326/L/

There's a few dozen Tomcats up top too, and some Harriers fairly low. But it's mainly several hundred (less than a thousand though, I THINK) Phantoms...

nice pic of the boneyard i belive

[hellohikaru]

Time to start the Asran Mercenary Air Force

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

David the local news back in va beach reported in 96 that the intruders retired would be placed in AZ and mothballed incase we needed thjem again. IS this the case for almost all the planes there? Id love to see the intruder and tomcat come back, a lot of people do however say the F/A-18F is better than the intruder in every which way. Which I doubt being that its a vast undertaking for a LWF derivative replacing a big bomber.

[David Hingtgen]

The US has massive reserves of aircraft, all at different "readiness" levels. Some are saved in good condition to potentially fly on short notice. Some are saved "well enough" to fly with some work done, and others are only saved to serve as spare parts sources for others. And of course many are scrapped or converted to drones. They're currently doing this with the B-1 fleet---sending perfectly good B-1's to the desert to be stripped for parts. It's better to have 2 wings of B-1's consistently ready, than 4 wings barely able to fly. Half the planes means twice as much spares and maintenance support per plane.

Ships are the exact same way--the USS Iowa is only kept as a potential source of spares for the Wisconsin and New Jersey.

Edited September 21, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[hellohikaru]

I have a strange feeling that the B-52 would eventually outlast the B-1Bs. Isn't it better to just maintain the B-1 since the AF doesn't carpet bomb anymore.

I wonder how is the Sewer Hornet better than the A-6E TRAM never mind the proposed A-6F. If you are hearing this from service personnel some of them mind be trying to protect their career advancement prospects.

Sewer Hornet doesn't have the range or payload of the A-6. Mostly a PGM user anyway carrying a handful of stuff plus drop tanks for most mission profiles.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

The person saying that the shornet was better than the truder was the product or chief manager for the shortnet program. Or something like that. A former truder rider who had doubts but ended up loving the hornet after taking over the program. Its from a google newsgroup thing.

[hellohikaru]

Seeing that TSR.2 making an appearance in AFDStrike how would you compare it with the Tornado MRCA ? Had it entered service imagine it flying low-level airfield attacks.

For me TSR.2(F-108 and the Arrow) never had a chance to prove themselves in combat so often its operational shortcomings are overlooked. TSR.2 was more like a better F-105 than a F-111 equivalent being meant for the nuclear delivery role. The bombbays are quite large might carry some 7000lbs of stuff. Not sure if the wings can carry anything but drop tanks.

Never liked the Mirage style air intakes of the design...would have prefered those seen on Tornado or F-15.

btw there was even proposals to create an interceptor variant.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

whoa dude link pics! Forgot what TSR2 is or looked like. Jerry mouse in AFDS is awesome howevewr. Looks like a tomcat and mig 29 mated with no swept wing. F-108 is awesome and from all accounts the avro is deemed by many as ahead of its time. Im only now warming up to the mirage family. WHile I think its cool I think the KFIR is awesome. Canards really do work wonders aesthetically.

anyone get pics of the MIG-35?

[Graham]

Sewer Hornet doesn't have the range or payload of the A-6

Sewer Hornet.....Heh, Heh, Heh

Graham

[hellohikaru]

BAC TSR.2

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

god 2 piece canopies like that appeal to me for some reason. Anyo0ne ever see Vought's submission to the naval TFX program back in the late 60s? Tomcat whupped its ass or should I say grumman OWNDED them, but still it was nice looking.

TSR2is in AFDS but im using ken right now and i need rick to get the TSR. it looks ratjher spiffy and nice. I like how its a multiroler. PLanes like ythe YF-17, TSR2, Super gator(crusader III), YF-23, A-7G, Mig 35, F-14 ST21 anmd such appeal to me since their potential was never or never got a chance to be realized. realizing what could have been kicks ass.

[hellohikaru]

Interesting marriage between the F-14A and Hawk SAM.

[Noyhauser]

Its a Iranian modification, likely during the Iran Iraq war, where they were getting no advanced missiles of any kind, except for two, the Hawk and the TOW, that were being funnelled through the Iran CONTRA pipeline. These hawks likely came from israel. The missile shortage was so acute that they were likely forced to undertake this modification.

edit... you already knew they were from Iran.... but they are likely Isreali, or American models, and NOT IHawks... the US was too hesitant to ship those over at first. I don't know the ammount of modification they recieved... as my knowledge of this stems only about the whole Iran Contra affair.

Edited October 3, 2004 by Noyhauser

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Hey guys anyone know if it was ever confirmed that sukhoi modded the F-14s? I hear the russians were trying to add AL-31F's with a glass cockpit as well.

This stems from one iranian F-14 defecting to iraq and ending up in russian hands somehow. Anyhoo I am sure Iran's tomcat force is nothing like it was before the revolution.

Got a new vs

Su-30MKI vs Mig-29SMT

and antyone ever see pics of the proposed Mig-35?(advanced fulcrum with canards....not the later Mig 1.44/42 when some people mislabeled that mig-35 as well)

[hellohikaru]

That MiG-35 Fulcrum proposal is really cool. It was to have TVC, a larger wing and new radar(Zhuk).

[hellohikaru]

@Shin Densetsu +

Iranian F-14: Alot of people particularly Western observers underestimate the actual number of operational Tomcats(beside the BS on Phoenix not working). A few years ago as many as 30 took part in a flypast over the capital. This must really say something about their industry.

Try to get that Osprey Publishing book Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units. A bit of BS here and there and some truth but hey believe what you will.

As for the Russians experimenting with the F-14 i don't why not but they don't see the need to come up with a copy.

Su-30MKI vs MiG-29SMT: All i can say is (IMHO) the Flanker will blow the upgraded Fulcrum out of the sky. Bigger radar antenna and more powerful, not to mention having a dedicated WSO to make use of it. In a dogfight i think the Su-30 has an edge in agility too. The SMT gains weight from all the improvements but still ends up no better than a F-18A Hornet.

[David Hingtgen]

The Hawk seems to be on pretty standard-looking Phoenix pylon..

Anyways---I've got to get the new "F-14's in Iran" book. Seems that they flew and fought a lot more than thought. Basically, since the F-14's were pre-revolution (and capitalist, American, and everything else) a LOT of their victories were credited to post-revolution weapons, etc. Massive and instant 'revisionist history' is basically what we've always heard about the Iranian F-14's. They apparently embarked on a massive program to replicate the critical parts they needed, and actually kept quite a few flying. A quick review I saw listed 159! kills for Iranian F-14's. Including occurances of when a single Phoenix (of the few working ones they had) took down 3 or 4 MiG's at a time, the blast radius is THAT big, if they're in close formation they'll all go down. (If you catch them unaware, and do a max range launch, entire groups go down with no warning)

Edited October 4, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Holy christ david you actually FOUND that book? where man?! I have checked barnes n nobles(which hasa dedicated osprey stand) but no joy!!

aw man....3-4 planes at a time at some times? That means some tomcat crews could have been aces over n over again!!

159 kills?.....goodness...if that is true...you know what that means!! Our precious eagle would be UNSEATED as king of all teen fighter aceS!! David, did it mention how many tomcats were lost as well?

And hikaru dude where did you get that picture? that is awesome!!!! As far as the last flyby I heard it was 25 back in the mid 80s. HOwever if they still got them up n running its amazing.....It really makes me wonder how much tail they would nail had the revolutioon not happened and iran was still an Ally of the US.

[hellohikaru]

Shin i got the MiG-35 scanned from one of my old issues of Air International with some article called Russian TV-Stars. You can find them it in certain websites too.

Its a cool idea that would have given the plane 10 pylons on a new wing, TVC, Zhuk Radar, new glass cockpit and many more. Fuselage was to have been similar in some areas to MiG-29M.

Not sure if Mig is going to continue with the 35 as they seem focus on JSF-Ski and 29SMT type upgrades, MiG-29N being the only exported Fulcrum C variant so far.

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

isn't JSF ski the LFI-2000?

Mig 35 aesthetically is the most beautiful mfulcrum

[David Hingtgen]

I don't have the Iranian F-14 book (yet), but I found a review of it somewhere, those were some highlights.

[Skull Leader]

Kinda sad that Iran boasts more air-to-air kills with OUR fighter than us.... also note they are the only people to still actively fly F-14As Those birds are as old or older than many of our tomcats still on the flightline and so far as I know, the IIAF has no intention of retiring them any time soon!

[RFT]

BAC TSR.2

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/

cheers for that link-

good lord, we did build some beautiful aircraft in the 50s and 60s. and the whole TSR.2 story pretty much sums up why we don;t have a serious military aerospace industry any more.

when I was an engineering student at manchester uni, one of the early bits of lab work we did for solid mechanics was messing around with an ex-TSR2 flap from one of the ones that had been used as target practce...

[Lynx7725]

Kinda sad that Iran boasts more air-to-air kills with OUR fighter than us.... also note they are the only people to still actively fly F-14As Those birds are as old or older than many of our tomcats still on the flightline and so far as I know, the IIAF has no intention of retiring them any time soon!

Let's rub it in some more...

They did it with A-models.. with the underpowered, somewhat unreliable engines.. no phoneixes.. using locally produced parts..

The shame of it all. The biggest, baddest bird off a steam cat and the only nation flying it is using it off LAND bases! :D