Asian and Oriental

[renegadeleader1]

I work with a guy named Geoff who is african american and white. He's from south africa his grandfather was scottish grandmother and mother irish father is british so that makes him a

White african american of britsh irish scottish decent who is currently married to a latin american woman whose grandmother was of spanish itialian descent married a jamaican man who was the decendant of a black slave that had a son with an native american woman he met while in the US army cav. The son they had married a latin woman.

The point he tells me is:

We are all connected and the same get used to it.

This is no BS. and in truth I envy him at leaset he knows his family history the best I can do is trace back to and irish grandfather. Him along with anyone that knew anything are now dead.

[KingNor]

The point he tells me is:

We are all connected and the same get used to it.

this really is the truth, i long for the day when all peoples in the united states will be proud enough to call them selfs.. "americans" and not "x-american"

i've adopted this country completely, i dont' consider myself german-american, or irish-american or euro-american.

i'm american. thats it. i'm sure there are other races in my gene's backround that make me who i am, and they're only there because of my familys being in america.

my ethnicity is american.

[Less than Super Ostrich]

my ethnicity is american.

Ditto. I'm such a mutt that the only thing I can call myself is American.

[doh-dough]

the term oriental has a strong racist connotation when referring to people. oriental and yes, Occidental were used to describe "yellow"(more on this later) people. those terms are highly offensive to people that are educated in the history of the words and participated in the civil rights movement of the 1960's. when the term "black power" was being used by black activists, asian activists coined the term "yellow" in conjunction with power, brother, sister, etc.

the general rule of thumb is to never use the word oriental. it's the asian equivalent of negro. the only acceptable use is when refering to a rug. and even that use is a bit borderline. if you know what nationality it is, you should use it: japanese food, chinese food, indian food, etc.; never oriental food. i'm sure that most people on this board know what different countries sushi and peking duck are from.

standing from the point of view being a minority(i happen to be chinese), using racist terms like niggas, chink, fag, etc. are about reclaiming identity and the empowerment to define ourselves. its not about double standards or hypocriscy. being politically correct is not all b.s. its about making sure that future generations not reverting back to the way things were when racism was still even more mainstream than it is today. the term "reverse racism" should speak volumes whenever you hear it.

by the way, never talk about how "you love oriental women" when you first meet someone Asian(which happens a lot more than you may think). it's extremely ignorant, sexist, and borderline racist. and in the wrong situations can cause you to get smacked in the head with a bottle of vodka. true story.

and lastly, here's something to think about: asian/pacific islanders are one of the smallest ethnic minorities in the country, i forget the percentage. but did you know that affirmative action doesn't apply to them?

Edited June 7, 2004 by doh-dough

[Ali Sama]

the term oriental has a strong racist connotation when referring to people

Not really, no. I know alot of people who still use this term.

it is an outdated term to mean "things east of",

they still refer persian rugs as oriental rugs. even thogh iran/perisa is a western asian coutry.

you could use the term oriental food to a philly cheese steak sandwich if you live in california. you don't becuase it is inaccurate way of lableing them. Hell the usa is oriental when you live in japan or china.

asian is not a race either. it is a continent. I am an asain yet I am white. My family has lived in asia for 1000's upong 1000's of years.

[doh-dough]

connotation - an idea or meaning suggested by or associated with a word or thing

like i said in the rest of the paragraph, people that know the word WILL be offended by it. if they use it, they must not be educated on the connotation and history of the word oriental. the actual meaning was never used to describe general easterly locations to begin with. it's a eurocentric word that described asia and asians. it's infused with stereotypes and proliferates ignorance and racism.

it is an outdated term to mean "things east of"...you could use the term oriental food to a philly cheese steak sandwich if you live in california. you don't becuase it is inaccurate way of lableing them. Hell the usa is oriental when you live in japan or china.

is the term outdated? yes. but your definition and use is most definitely incorrect.

[mbs357]

If I'm not mistaken, people from India are called "Indonesians."

Otherwise, I just call people by what country they're from.

If you're not sure, just call him or her an Asian person, because from the looks of it, he's from somewhere Asia, no?

[EXO]

If I'm not mistaken, people from India are called "Indonesians."

And people that live near the equator are all called Ecuadorians...

[JsARCLIGHT]

If a person is a man/woman older than you, you call them sir/ma'am.

If a person is a man/woman younger than you, you say "hey you"

If a person is wearing stripes you call them Sarge because they work for a living.

If a person is wearing shiny metal on their collar you call them sir.

If a person is being an ass you call them an ass.

If a person is being a dork you call them a dork.

Race has nothing to do with it when you use the right polite/impolite words. The only color the army sees is green and the only nationality I see is American. If you live in this country and are a citizen you are an American. Once you come to America it corrupts and mutates you into an American anyway... just try going back to your home country once you've been "Americanized". Chances are they will call you an American then, too. Everyone else from other countries you are Chinese, Japanese, French, British, you name it. If I don't know your nationality I call you by the chart above until I know your name or your nationality... and chances are when I know your name your nationality does not matter any more.

Edited June 7, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[doh-dough]

If I'm not mistaken, people from India are called "Indonesians."

at first i was like

then i was like

and now i'm like

[RichterX]

No matter what you say or do you will always offend someone, like the people of the USA using the term America just to name their country instead of the whole continent...

[ewilen]

like i said in the rest of the paragraph, people that know the word WILL be offended by it.

No, you will be offended by it.

if they use it, they must not be educated

Education in this case meaning credulously accepting the dogmatization of linguistics in the service of politics.

on the connotation and history of the word oriental.

the actual meaning was never used to describe general easterly locations to begin with.  it's a eurocentric word that described asia and asians.  it's infused with stereotypes and proliferates ignorance and racism.

And I suppose the offense taken by some Indians and Pakistanis at being excluded from the term "Asian" means nothing to you?

[Ali Sama]

connotation - an idea or meaning suggested by or associated with a word or thing

like i said in the rest of the paragraph, people that know the word WILL be offended by it. if they use it, they must not be educated on the connotation and history of the word oriental. the actual meaning was never used to describe general easterly locations to begin with. it's a eurocentric word that described asia and asians. it's infused with stereotypes and proliferates ignorance and racism.

it is an outdated term to mean "things east of"...you could use the term oriental food to a philly cheese steak sandwich if you live in california. you don't becuase it is inaccurate way of lableing them. Hell the usa is oriental when you live in japan or china.

is the term outdated? yes. but your definition and use is most definitely incorrect.

O`ri`en´tal Pronunciation: ō`rĭ`ĕn´tal

a. 1. Of or pertaining to the orient or east; eastern; concerned with the East or Orientalism; - opposed to occidental; as, Oriental countries.

The sun's ascendant and oriental radiations.

- Sir T. Browne.

n. 1. A native or inhabitant of the Orient or some Eastern part of the world; an Asiatic.

2. (Eccl.) Eastern Christians of the Greek rite.

[doh-dough]

ewilen:

just in case you haven't noticed, i did state initially that some people Will get offended, not all. i just pointed out the ones that will. and telling from your picture, you're not in any real position to tell a person of color what they can and can't feel offended about. in in the case of "dogma in linguistics in the service of politics," i guess it's acceptable to call black people negroids and yellow people mongoloids. especially when being said to have evolved from snakes/reptiles(mongoloids in that case). that's not offensive, derogatory, or the least bit racist right? by the way, indians Are included in the term "asian." i'm pretty sure pakistanis are too but not 100%. whether or not individuals define themselves as asian is another matter. and yes, it would bother me if they felt that they were excluded if wanting to be included in that group, which i'm pretty sure they are of anyway so you don't really have a point there.

i think you have some stereotypes on what "asian" actually is and it's be better to completely quote me instead of taking bits and pieces of what i say. snipets ocassionally lead to misinterpretation.

Edited June 7, 2004 by doh-dough

[doh-dough]

Ali Sama:

are you trying to prove my point or defend your statement? the definition you just gave doesn't match your use of oriental in regards to oriental philly cheese steaks....mmmm....cheese steaks....

[dyowelb]

If I'm not mistaken, people from India are called "Indonesians."

i'm confused...so what do you call people from the country of Indonesia???

[Ali Sama]

Ali Sama:

are you trying to prove my point or defend your statement?  the definition you just gave doesn't match your use of oriental in regards to oriental philly cheese steaks....mmmm....cheese steaks....

Of or pertaining to the orient or east

oriental cheese steak == east coast cheese steak.

O´ri`ent  Pronunciation: ō´rĭ`ent

a. 1. Rising, as the sun.

Moon, that now meet'st the orient sun.

- Milton.

2. Eastern; oriental.

3. Bright; lustrous; superior; pure; perfect; pellucid; - used of gems and also figuratively, because the most perfect jewels are found in the East.

n. 1. The part of the horizon where the sun first appears in the morning; the east.

[Morn] came furrowing all the orient into gold.

- Tennyson.

2. The countries of Asia or the East.

Best built city throughout the Orient.

- Sir T. Herbert.

3. A pearl of great luster.

Noun 1. Orient - the countries of Asia

Synonyms: East

2. orient - the hemisphere that includes Eurasia and Africa and Australia

Synonyms: eastern hemisphere

Edited June 7, 2004 by Ali Sama

[Jolly Rogers]

standing from the point of view being a minority(i happen to be chinese), using racist terms like niggas, chink, fag, etc. are about reclaiming identity and the empowerment to define ourselves. its not about double standards or hypocriscy.

Where did you get that from?! Use of such words to "reclaim" your identity makes about much sense as putting on a straw hat or picking cottons in chains to "reclaim" one's identity.

[doh-dough]

Jolly Rogers:

i'm going to go into a little more depth this time regarding that statement. it's not about me going to build a railroad to reclaim my roots. its about taking words that have been offensive in the past and reclaiming them as my own. it's about shared experiences, culture, and history. it's about your connection to other people that have share those experiences. when you hear a black person say, "whaddup my niggaz!" on the surface it's just a greeting between familiars, but if you go deeper than that, it's a kinship of sorts that speaks to a very intimate part of yourself that you share with your peeps. i know this might sound like b.s. to a lot of people, but it really isn't. there are always exceptions of course and if one of my close friends called me a chinaman(an old derogatory term for a chinese person) or something, i wouldn't take much offense. but if some white or black dude off the street sent a "ching chong chinaman" routine my way, i'd be the first to get in his face and bring it to him chinatown gangsta style.

[Stamen0083]

If I'm not mistaken, people from India are called "Indonesians."

Hmm... Interesting thought. So, do you call people from Indonesia "Indians"?

[ewilen]

Nice use of straw men, doh-dough.

Time to lock the thread.

[Agent ONE]

Bye thread.

[doh-dough]

Ali Sama:

i think that you might be taking the definition a little too literally. your given definition clearly describes the East as a specific region as opposed to the east as a general direction.

ewilen:

straw men? are you saying that i:

a)distorted what you said

b)you distorted what i said

c)distorted what everyone said

d)everyone distorts what i said

i think you should take some african american history and asian american history classes. they might fill some holes in your assumptions on minorities. actually, i think everyone should take some diversity classes in general. i know a lot of people scoff at it, but it would really help clear up misconceptions, stereotypes, and generally leads to better understanding of others and communication.

Edited June 7, 2004 by doh-dough

[Sundown]

Where did you get that from?! Use of such words to "reclaim" your identity makes about much sense as putting on a straw hat or picking cottons in chains to "reclaim" one's identity.

It's called "empowerment disempowerment". It's the use of hurtful words by minority groups in order to take the sting out of it, and in order to take the power of the word away from other groups. I guess it hurts a little less when the terms are no longer used excusively by those outside of the group in a derogatory manner. That's what you have African Americans throwing "nigger" around, and the homosexual community ribbing each other with "fag". According to "Chasing Amy" anyway.

-Al

[doh-dough]

Sundown:

here's a big THANK YOU!

i forgot if the actual term for it but i'm glad someone knows what i'm talking about.

Edited June 7, 2004 by doh-dough

[ewilen]

ewilen:

straw men? are you saying that i:

a)distorted what you said

Yes. You proceeded to ascribe all sorts of racial epithets to me, when I never advocated nor defended their use.

Let me ask you: when did you decide that the word "oriental" was an offensive term?

Was it based on personal experience or observation (please elaborate), or were you taught that it was offensive?

If you were taught that it was offensive, did the teacher provide a rational explanation with supporting evidence, or did you simply accept the assertion at face value?

[Gaijin]

It was a good run.

[doh-dough]

ewilen:

first of all, i'm not going to have a war with semantics with you so i'm going to make this simple:

dude, you basically have no idea what you're talking about. i didn't twist anything you said. i didn't even "proceed to ascribe all sorts of racial epithets" to you. and not once did i say that you "advocated nor defended their use." eventhough you are defending the use of "Oriental." a blind person can see that i'm at least a little offended by it.

if you read any of what i wrote, you have no points. at least make one valid point. i'm just asking for one point that i can't argue against. you can't cover up your ignorance with big words and fancy terms.

and now you want me to justify how and why i'm offend by Oriental? fine by me. i'm offended through what i've learned from being involved in asian and asian american social causes and projects, learning asian american history, speaking to people that lived through extreme racism and prejudice, and experiencing those myself. it's from hearing "i love oriental (blank)" over and over again the first time you meet someone non-asian. it's about being objectified and exoticized. it's about being asked if you know martial arts or if you're related to someone with the same last name. it's about all those countless little racist or ignorant occurances that you'll fortunately never have to experience unlike how a person of color would thousands of times over in their life.

any questions?

Edited June 8, 2004 by doh-dough

[Golden Arms]

I've always have heard that the term Oriental was a derogatory term. From my understanding it was a term non Asians (westerners) used to lump all Asians into one giant pot. It conjures up dehumanizing images of yellow Slant-eyed buck-toothed character types. See WWII American pro war rally signs.

Doh-dough is right in that some of the newer terms that many minorities now use to refer to themselves is in attempt to regain the power of identity and define themselves and not to allow others to define them. I prefer to call myself African-American. It acknowldeges both my american and African ancestry which I'm proud of. But it isn't a one size fits all issue. I have relatives and friends that dislike the term and refer to themselves as being black.

On a side note I think culture studies should be a required elective for incoming freshman. I think they can help open dialogue between different ethnic, racial and economic groups. We can learn alot from each other which is never a bad thing.

Edited June 8, 2004 by Golden Arms

[ewilen]

Doh-dough, this thread has been allowed to exist because everyone has conducted themselves with decorum and respect. Everyone agrees implicitly that insulting people is bad, and for the sake of discussion, I think we can also agree no one should be attacked for presenting their point of view in a non-hostile manner. At least, that is the spirit under which everyone has operated thus far.

For the record, I generally use the term "Asian" to describe peoples from East and Southeast Asia. It's become the normal term, for whatever reason, and as someone noted up-thread, "Oriental" sounds corny. Just as does "negro", "Afro-American", or "colored person", even though those terms were all once favored both by people they described and right-thinking people of other groups. ("Person/people of color", although current in the academic/activist context you come from, is quite different.)

Now, I am wondering, if your quotation of all sorts of offensive terms for various racial/ethnic groups was not related to me, then whey did you bring it all up at all? And I also wonder how it is you know so much about me, so that you can say I've never experienced prejudice and bigotry, or patronizing comments about my ethnic background?

And your answer really doesn't answer a thing. It strongly suggests that, yes, you've learned to be offended by the term "Oriental" because some professor, appealing to your sense of hurt and oppression, told you to be offended. You really have little to say about what makes the term itself hateful, what specifically connects it to the history of racism and prejudice against Asians, or even to your personal experiences. What if the next time you meet a white person, she tells you she loves Asian food?

Edited June 8, 2004 by ewilen

[Golden Arms]

Ewilen I think your missing doh-dough's point. doh-dough stated that he met " Various peoples of Asians descent" that disliked the term Oriental and thought it to be derogatoty. The logical response to that If he/ she was really their friend would be to cease the use of the word. Again not all Asians are going to be offended by the term, but it sounds outdated and he specifically knew some people to take exception to it.

[JsARCLIGHT]

OK, I have a question here for all parties involved and no, my use of this word and my asking of this question does not make me a racist or insensitive to the feelings of others:

Is it just me or like Ewilen said is "Oriental" not an outdated word just like "Colored" is? I mean, I never hear the word oriental anymore in any context and if I did chances are it would be coming out of the mouth of a senior citizen. I have been operating under the assumption for years that people like to be refferred to by their names first and foremost or by sir or madam or miss second. It seems to me the only people in this day and age that revert to racial titles are the police (when putting out APBs) and people too lazy to learn someone's name or too rude to say "excuse me sir". But on the other side of the coin you have racial groups taking pride in their race. There is nothing wrong with that but it is still drawing dividing lines between people... then again I am a white palace believer that everyone is the same no matter who they are or what their race. Most people would be like me if they had some exposure to other peoples in other places as I have in my life. Most people in today's world live in their own little cloistered worlds and have no exposure to people other than people just like them and this breeds the "them and us" mentality that exsists and has exsisted since the dawn of time.

We will all start getting along better when we drop the differences and embrace the similairities... but there are more people willing to embrace difference right now than there are those willing to embrace likeness and it is still tearing the country apart. But there is no reason it should tear apart MacrossWorld so let's all just step back and reassume our "internet race-less identities" and treat each other as macross fans and not care about who is what.

[Sundown]

Sundown:

here's a big THANK YOU!

i forgot if the actual term for it but i'm glad someone knows what i'm talking about.

I'm not passing up a chance to quote or reference one of my favorite movies.

And another.

"What's a nubian?"

-Al

[Golden Arms]

Speaking of race, culture, identity, racism and stupidity, Those familiar with American Football Check out the story below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1817592

[EXO]

Asian/Oriental

you say potato... I say patatas...

with adobo, lumpia and some BBQ bananas... mmmmmmm....