Ali Sama Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 I've always found "caucasian" to be about as incorrect a term as there is. The Caucas mountains are Cechnya/Kazakhstan/Armenia/Southern Russia. And that's a pretty distinctly different ethnic group than what 99% of people mean when they say "caucasian". I personally am (mainly) German/English/Norwegian. That's utterly not "Caucasian" both geographically and ethnically. I mean, the Alps would be a way better mountain range to use. But that includes Italy, which is also pretty distinct... I'm like, "Scandigermanglosaxon". (Which is a pretty darn common combination for "white" from what I can tell---German+English is VERY common) But, linguistically, most all of Europe (east and west) is part of the Indo-European family. This indicates a common place of origin. A bit of trivia: Lithuanian is considered the closest modern language to the original Indo-European root language. And to show why race isn't used and language is, Korean, Japanese, Farsi and Turkish are all part the altaic language family indicating a common place origin. But, by common standards, Koreans/Japanese and Persians/Turks are part of two different races. yeah. so are the languges in iran, india afaganistan etc. all indo eurpean.
Drad Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 ...they all thought I was caucasian...er...white...er...haole. Bwahaha!! HAOLE BOY!! Nah, only joking.
Mechamaniac Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 Hey, here's a thought.... Why not just refer to people as "this guy/girl I know". Does it make a difference what race/ethnicity/religion they are a part of? Seriously, say you are referring to your friend to people that you don't know, and that don't know your friend. What difference does it make if your friend is Asian, Hispanic, or a Blue Meanie? To me, the whole thing seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face. The only reason people do this is to make themselves look better. "I have an "X" friend" = Look how diverse I am!!. Unless you are trying to qualify some point you are trying to make, like telling a story about Japan, and backing it up by saying, "I asked my Japanese friend, and he agreed." Even then, you're just trying to make yourself look better. Basically, what we're doing here is trying in the name of Political Correctness, not to offend anyone by calling them something that they may consider offensive without us knowing it. So, in a small kind of dirty hippie tree hugging way, it's all about giving the world a coke, and teaching them how to sing in perfect harmony, IE, let all the colors bleed into one etc. But by continuing to classify people by their race/ethnicity/religion etc, no matter how you do it, you're just causing derision, and stereotypes to carry on. People are people, regardless of their skin color, or religion or what have you. So, why classify them at all? If you are going to, you may as well keep going right on down the socio-economic ladder. "My Asian, middle class, republican, Jewish friend said..." etc. One of my best friends whom I have known all my life is Puerto-Rican, so I guess by PC standards, that would make him Hispanic, but to me, he is just Clint. And when I mention him to people who don't know him, he's just, "my friend Clint". That being said, I'll get down off of my Teutonic/Celtic soapbox.
JELEINEN Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 That might present problems. I speak English fluently, as do I Viet-Namese. What am I?Remember, I speak both in everyday conversations. It's not like either is a foreign language I have learned. Well, anthropologists aren't concerned so much with individuals, but with societies as a whole. For the topic of this discussion, language doesn't help much when you want to address someone in reference to their race. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need to worry about it (racial distinctions are very arbitrary anyway). I generally try to avoid distinguishing by race when possible. When not possible, I'll pick the least offensive term. So, even though I think "Asian" is an unfortunate term for distinguishing race, I'll use it if necessary.
JELEINEN Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 yeah. so are the languges in iran, india afaganistan etc. all indo eurpean. Correct. Interestingly enough, neither Finnish nor the Basque language in Europe are Indo-European.
Final Vegeta Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 Also, I'm intruigued by the idea of anthropologists using languages people speak to classify them. To think English has stolen a lot of words from other languages There are even Latin words, which have mantained the original plural, together with a new English standard plural (ie: pollex/pollices). I'm not familiar with it and am wondering how exactly does that work? I am not sure if I agree with that kind of division, but if you speak a language you think in a certain way. For istance, American natives can speak English very well, maybe they don't even know their original language, but they speak English in the same way the would have spoken American "Indian". At least that's what I've read in a book. This is why American natives and American don't get on very well. The American native normally doesn't speak to people he doesn't know, while the American seems to consider courtesy entertaining with some talking people he found in public. The American native makes longer pauses in his speech, but it doesn't mean he has finished, while American makes smaller pauses, often interrupting the American native (that after the American native was forced to talk). To finish things, the American native thinks peoples don't own time, so he doesn't say good-bye, and the American found that very impolite. FV
Sundown Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 it SEEMS to me, that calling the "asian" countrys like Japan, China, Korea and the like "oriental" is not any more derogitory than calling Asian countrys like Afghanisstan and Pakistan "middle eastern." What's derogatory is decided more by the people one's referring to than it is by other parties. I'm not sure what innaccuracies are involved in referring to folks as "Oriental" other than the fact that it conjures up images of buck tooth Charlie Chan and such, while Asian just sounds technical. For what it's worth, many Asian Indians consider themselves Asian, and the term Asian Indian is often used refer to those groups, but the division between the two seems to lie in the fact that appearances and culture are at times more defining than the continent they actually do come from. -Al
Ali Sama Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 (edited) Also, I'm intruigued by the idea of anthropologists using languages people speak to classify them. To think English has stolen a lot of words from other languages There are even Latin words, which have mantained the original plural, together with a new English standard plural (ie: pollex/pollices). I'm not familiar with it and am wondering how exactly does that work? I am not sure if I agree with that kind of division, but if you speak a language you think in a certain way. For istance, American natives can speak English very well, maybe they don't even know their original language, but they speak English in the same way the would have spoken American "Indian". At least that's what I've read in a book. This is why American natives and American don't get on very well. The American native normally doesn't speak to people he doesn't know, while the American seems to consider courtesy entertaining with some talking people he found in public. The American native makes longer pauses in his speech, but it doesn't mean he has finished, while American makes smaller pauses, often interrupting the American native (that after the American native was forced to talk). To finish things, the American native thinks peoples don't own time, so he doesn't say good-bye, and the American found that very impolite. FV interesting link Edited May 31, 2004 by Ali Sama
Gaijin Posted May 31, 2004 Posted May 31, 2004 (edited) ...they all thought I was caucasian...er...white...er...haole. Bwahaha!! HAOLE BOY!! Nah, only joking. That's Lebhead. We still love ya Leb. Edited May 31, 2004 by Gaijin
KingNor Posted June 1, 2004 Author Posted June 1, 2004 Mechamaniac: to answer your question, people use ethnicity just as any other describer. to help people tell other people apart. generaly, we use the most obvious ways of identifying someone when we are talking about them. if its a really tall person, people say "i know this guy, real tall, bla bla bla" its just a description. generally speaking, race is often an easy way to pick someone out in a crowd.. so say its a room full of whites, two blacks and an asain.. its easyest to say "yeah, thats my friend joe, hes the asian guy over there" than it is to say " my friend joe is the guy with the black hair" or "the guy with glasses" or any of the other things that most likely are shared by at least a few other people. say i was meeting someone from the internet in a resturant in japan, i would tell them to look for the white guy. ethnicity is often (but not always) an easy way to tell people apart. i'm sure most other countrys don't give this sort of thing much thought as in MOST countrys the ethnicity of the people is pretty uniform. hope that makes sence. in kind of a twisted way, someone COULD say that "this guy/girl i know" singles out their gender. i don't think useing generalizations simply as a means to help paint the picture of someone is necesarily a bad thing. Stamen008: i think the way the language classification would work is you would simply be considered a English and Viet-Namese speaker. You'd be both. the cool thing is that it doesn't really imply anything about you except what languages we can comunicate in. wich in the end is realy all thats important... to me anyway.
dr_vandermeer Posted June 1, 2004 Posted June 1, 2004 (edited) interesting link Wow! Great link! I especially found it interesting that the word 'America' came from Italian - "Continent named after an Italian map maker" AND that the word 'Japan' came from Mandarin. So fascinating... Edited June 1, 2004 by dr_vandermeer
Ladic Posted June 1, 2004 Posted June 1, 2004 this is very similar as how most people label Hispanics as a Race.
dyowelb Posted June 1, 2004 Posted June 1, 2004 interesting link Wow! Great link! I especially found it interesting that the word 'America' came from Italian - "Continent named after an Italian map maker" AND that the word 'Japan' came from Mandarin. So fascinating... i agree...very interesting link...and i thought yo-yo came from US and was borrowed by the Filipinos, but it's the other way around...
Max Jenius Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Real interesting but how is this on topic? Considering the number of members of asian origin, I think its pretty relevant. They have been very good at staying away from policy violation, so like I said earlier I'm keeping an eye on it and it's all good Mr. Focker. Besides, I have six blue thingies and you have four, so you have to listen to me right?
ewilen Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 (edited) Glad to see it got reopened. The thing about the Asian vs. Oriental issue is that neither term is accurate if interpreted literally. Is "oriental" Eurocentric? If so, why are Europeans and Americans called "Westerners"? (And I notice that Japan doesn't mind referring to itself as the land of the rising sun, which is etymologically analogous to the term "Orient".) The same applies to many other racial and national terms. (E.g., whites aren't white and blacks aren't black.) Ultimately I think it's best to try not to give offense, but also not to be too quick to take offense. Now, Stamen0083, while Vietnam is "Viet Nam" in Vietnamese, in English it's become normal to use the single word form. I don't see why there should be a problem with that--or should Germans be offended that we don't call them "Deutsch"? For that matter, the name "Viet Nam" is rather a Sinocentric label. Look here and here. Edited June 2, 2004 by ewilen
Stamen0083 Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Now, Stamen0083, while Vietnam is "Viet Nam" in Vietnamese, in English it's become normal to use the single word form. I don't see why there should be a problem with that--or should Germans be offended that we don't call them "Deutsch"? For that matter, the name "Viet Nam" is rather a Sinocentric label. Look here and here. Yes, it's normal, but it really bugs me, because it's wrong. If Viet Nam was called something else in the West, I wouldn't be so bothered by it. Example: Germany and Deutsch. But when you use our words to identify us, the least you could do is to not mangle the language. Simply because all Viet-Namese is monosyllabic.
ewilen Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Yes, but in Vietnamese, many other places get the multiple word treatment (sometimes hyphenated, sometimes not). Or conversely they get cut down to a single syllable. So turnabout is fair play
dr_vandermeer Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Now, Stamen0083, while Vietnam is "Viet Nam" in Vietnamese, in English it's become normal to use the single word form. I don't see why there should be a problem with that--or should Germans be offended that we don't call them "Deutsch"? For that matter, the name "Viet Nam" is rather a Sinocentric label. Look here and here. Yes, it's normal, but it really bugs me, because it's wrong. If Viet Nam was called something else in the West, I wouldn't be so bothered by it. Example: Germany and Deutsch. But when you use our words to identify us, the least you could do is to not mangle the language. Simply because all Viet-Namese is monosyllabic. Some hardliners think 'Korea' and 'Korean' should be spelled 'Corea' and 'Corean' with a 'C'. And to the mods, I've got ONE big, blue thingie, so there!!! Woo-hoo!!!
David Hingtgen Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 The opposite of "Orient" is "Occident". "The West" is the much more common term for "The Occident". And it includes Europe by definition. So the terms are Eurocentric.
Neova Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 (edited) Some hardliners think 'Korea' and 'Korean' should be spelled 'Corea' and 'Corean' with a 'C'. And to the mods, I've got ONE big, blue thingie, so there!!! Woo-hoo!!! Korea was spelled Corea pre-WWII, or perhaps pre-WWI, before Japanese occupation. Japan changed that country's name so Japan would precede it in the history books. I could go on about other Asian countries but I'm getting off topic. /Back to the topic... Edited June 2, 2004 by Neova
EXO Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 And to the mods, I've got ONE big, blue thingie, so there!!! Woo-hoo!!! I'm afraid the mods won't be able to help you... I suggest getting medical attn. And soon!
Stamen0083 Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Yes, but in Vietnamese, many other places get the multiple word treatment (sometimes hyphenated, sometimes not). Or conversely they get cut down to a single syllable. So turnabout is fair play Touche' :-D
ewilen Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 The opposite of "Orient" is "Occident". "The West" is the much more common term for "The Occident". And it includes Europe by definition. So the terms are Eurocentric. How so? I'd say both terms are Eurasia-centric, since they take their frame of reference as somewhere in between East Asia ("the Orient") and Europe ("the Occident"). (To a Hawaiian, North America is the East and China is the West.)
Jolly Rogers Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 And to the mods, I've got ONE big, blue thingie, so there!!! Woo-hoo!!! I'm afraid the mods won't be able to help you... I suggest getting medical attn. And soon! A brief moment of pleasure, an eternity of pain...
David Hingtgen Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 Depends on how you define "Orient". Usually means east Asia, but can be central and even western Asia if you want. It really only means "East of Europe". Could include India or Australia if you really want. Thus, Euro-centric, by most definitions.
treatment Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 (edited) Regardless of being politically-correct or academically-sound or what-not, using the term oriental is just plain corny. As corny as referring to Europeans as occidentals. Using either terms is like wearing a hot pink polo-shirt on a hot humid summer day. And you're a dude. Edited June 2, 2004 by treatment
BoBe-Patt Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 (sigh) I've said it once and I'll say it again, let's just keep it simple and safe by calling them asian. It's the universal title that Americans use and it's been working so far. For those of you who don't want to be called Asian, then just say so, but I feel the majority of us don't mind and don't care as much. So Asians it will be!
KingNor Posted June 2, 2004 Author Posted June 2, 2004 actuall, i think since brittan was the last "super empire" alot of terminology started there. so, i think "the west" actually refers to anything west of brittan. brittan being the center of the empire. european countrys were east of brittan but still in europe, i think you had to be east of europe itself before england considered you "the east" i've never heard that term occidental before, i wonder if europe considers the americas to be one big "occident" get it? bad joke. personally, i think this disscussion has pretty much resolved it self, i learned a whole bunch so if the mods want to lock it before it has the opprotunity to go sour, thats fine by me.
BoBe-Patt Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 personally, i think this disscussion has pretty much resolved it self, i learned a whole bunch so if the mods want to lock it before it has the opprotunity to go sour, thats fine by me. Yeah, I agree, I think that this thread has run it's course. It's done, capoot, fini.
Agent ONE Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 LOL, how on Earth did one of you convince a mod that this thread was within the Terms of Use? I mean I think we are all benifiting from it, but still. I will display my perfect grasp of the proper nomenclature: I love eating oriental food, while watching asian porn.
EXO Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I love eating oriental food, while watching asian porn. I bet that confuses the hell out of the cannibals...
Ali Sama Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 (sigh) I've said it once and I'll say it again, let's just keep it simple and safe by calling them asian. It's the universal title that Americans use and it's been working so far. For those of you who don't want to be called Asian, then just say so, but I feel the majority of us don't mind and don't care as much. So Asians it will be! i prefer terran. lol
dr_vandermeer Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 I love eating oriental food, while watching asian porn. You win!
dr_vandermeer Posted June 2, 2004 Posted June 2, 2004 And to the mods, I've got ONE big, blue thingie, so there!!! Woo-hoo!!! I'm afraid the mods won't be able to help you... I suggest getting medical attn. And soon! A brief moment of pleasure, an eternity of pain... oh crap.........OOPS!!! Yikes, that would really be bad. Blue is not quite the color you want your thingie to be. As to the topic, yes, very informative, educational, and probably done. Nice to have every once in a while though...
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