Asian and Oriental

[KingNor]

The thread this discussion started in went off topic, but i've got a few questions about the terminology of what is Asian/Oriental. Because of the high amount of Japanise, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamise, and Phillipino members here i want to be sure i'm using the correct terminology to refer to groups.

the thing i find confusing is that Asian.. generaly refers now-a-days to the area many would consider "the orient" IE: japan china and korea area. basicly the east coast of asia.

this is confusing because there are alot of other countrys that people don't consider "asian" IN asia. as a ethnic backround it seems odd to call a japanise person asian while a person from inda is just as "asian" in that his entire country is located IN asia.

while most people would simply say "just call people from Idia, indian" it still dosen't quite make sence as that implys nationaliy and not "general area of decent"

it seems unfair to call just the eastern nationalitys of asia "asian" considering all of india, kazakhstan, nepal and others are just as "asian" but their people arn't usually consider "asian" also, MOST of russia is in Asia yet they are considered a European country since the most active part of the country is in europe.

it SEEMS to me, that calling the "asian" countrys like Japan, China, Korea and the like "oriental" is not any more derogitory than calling Asian countrys like Afghanisstan and Pakistan "middle eastern." the "middle east" isn't a continent, just a region, much like i though the "orient" was just a region. thus it seems natural to call people from that reigion "oriental" just as we'd call Iraqis and Kuwaitis "Middle Eastern" since i believe those countrys are also Asian

it also has to do with "pacific islander" wich are still technically part of asia. again its a region not a continent yet as far as i know, being called a pacific islander isn't derogitory.

maybe its because "oriental" is a term and not a description that people are turned off by it. maybe "east asian" would be more suitable? i dont know.

does that make sence? i imagine i'm not right, but this is just my train of though. please correct me as needed. :-)

i'm sure i sound pretty ignorant, wich i am on this subject and the only way to learn is to ask, so please don't be offended.

[007-vf1]

I am just as puzzled as you are...and I am not that much of an ignorant. I guess best thing is to ask what does anyone likes to be called?

For my side, I was born in South america, and considered Hispanic. The terminology comes from Hispanola, Espain to be exact an European country. My mother is 3rd generation Spaniard and form italian background; my father is 40% black, I have very little indigenous blood so in a sence I am not really Hispanic...but european or African for that sense.; am I?

To me this subject, SOMETIMES, is like the chiken and the egg, meaningless conclusions....

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Its one of those things.

Anyway, in the UK at least, they actually mean Indian/Pakistani when they say Asian. Chinese and Japanese etc are termed as Asians.

[Mr March]

Keep in mind a few things when analyzing stuff like this. One; political correctness continues and will continue to be a barrier to proper communication. Two; no matter how hard you try, someone will always be offended no matter what you say. Three; any word can be used in a derogatory fashion.

The current racial climate in some parts of the North America is a perfect example. It's politically incorrect to call black people black, so "african american" was coined the PC term. That is, until it was decided that "african american" is a type of segregation, thus seperating "black americans" from "real americans." As it stands now, I don't think there is any generally accepted term. So how then does one describe a person's looks, whether black, white, or any other?

After all, it's not politically incorrect to call someone "red haired". However, once skin enters into the equation, suddenly we aren't describing a person, but we MUST have a racial problem

Ultimately, it would be best to be accurate. If you don't know whether a person's from Japan or China, ask. No harm in educating yourself. At worst, you'll get corrected from an angry person with a racial chip on their shoulder. At best, you'll learn something new.

[Stamen0083]

...Because of the high amount of Japanise, Korean, Chinese, Vietnamise...

First of all, it's Vietnamese, not Vietnamise, and even then, it should be Viet-Namese, not Vietnamese, since the country is called Viet Nam, not Vietnam.

Two words, not one.

How'd you get Chinese right and mess up on Vietnamese and Japanese?

The difference between being called Asian or Indian boils down to, believe it or not, skin color. Generally, Asians are thought of as having yellow skin (though I have no idea where that came from. We're whiter than the white people here, who are pink), smaller eyes (a few slant, but not many of them, mind you), shorter stature (again, not all of us. Many Asians are giants by our standards), and a rather unique culture. The Asians that aren't normally thought of as Asians simply do not share much of these traits. No way can you mistake an Indian guy for a Vietnamese guy.

Why is it unfair that "Asian" doesn't apply to all of Asia? It's simply a label. Since they are in Asia, they are automatically Asians, whether they are called so or not.

And since when is the term "Oriental" derogatory? I was never aware of that "fact."

So I leave with this: If you spin an Oriental person around, does he become disoriented?

[Ali Sama]

actually the middle east is a term similar to the orient.

Most of the middle east is asian. the rest are africans.

[Eternal_D]

ok, I just looked up Oriental in the dictionary and it does include people. but I've always been taught to use Oriental on the objects of the Orient like furniture, clothes, instruments. Thus, I don't like it when people call me Oriental. I'm Chinese, but if you can't tell, just call me Asian.

and to add, I think it's a very generalized term...almost as bad as calling black people black and all light skinned/brown haired people white, but I don't really mind it.

[UN Spacy]

Anyone that says Oriental (to describe an Asian) should be questioned because that's something you'd hear in the 80's.

[dr_vandermeer]

KingNor, ask tons of people or do a search online and you'll find all sorts of opinions and thoughts on the matter. I don't think ANYONE can give you the "one-and-only-final-say-right-answer" on this subject, because there is none. Our language and terminology and cumulative life experience changes so much over time that it is impossible.

If I remember correctly, even Bruce Lee called himself Oriental, and my parents still use the term Oriental. But that was the time back then, and that was their life experience. For a lot of people in the States today, just use "Asian" and not "Oriental" and you'll be fine. Can't really speak for how it is in other parts of the world.

To me, it all comes down to personal preference. I have a Russian friend in Dallas, Texas. Geographically, he's "Asian", but he "White" in Dallas, and technically he's "Russian". HE calls himself "White", so I call him "White".

Both of my parents were born in Thailand and I was born here in Los Angeles. Based on my own personal life experience, I prefer to be called Asian or Thai. I don't refer to myself as Asian-American or Oriental or Southeast Asian, and even though I may be American, I don't often refer to myself as such. But that's just me.

To take it to another place, if a white child got raised by a black family, I would have no problem calling him "Black" if that's what he preferred. His skin is "White" but his life experience is "Black". If I met him for the first time, I'd obviously say he was "White" the first time, but if he corrected me, I'd change my description to accomodate him, because I was unaware of his past. If an Japanese guy was raised in Mexico and wanted to be called a "Mexican", then fine by me. Just as I would have no problem calling a man who feels like he is truly a woman such, because that's what he prefers.

In any case, this is all just my personal opinion. I think it's good that you are at least sensitive to different people to ask the question. You don't have to be overly PC, just respect different peoples opinions and desires and you'll be cool. By the way, what thread did this start in?

Edited May 30, 2004 by dr_vandermeer

[Sumdumgai]

You can call me slant-eyes if you want to!

Seriously does it really matter? No matter how much you conform to political correctness you're bound to offend someone. Stop trying to be perfect- oh wait too much Fight Club again...

Uhm, yellow-skins? Actually I'm more of a diseased pale, but hey whatever.

Isn't this rather political anyway?

[Otaku-Smeghead]

Well thats Weird Cause when I was in the Army and I told all my White Friends I was Oreintal. they kept ragging on me telling me I was Asian and not Oreintal... MY reason for thinking was since Im chinese (Even though Im an ABC Boy) My Parents were from HK And Shanghai Parts of the world that people considered the Orient I thought of myself as Oriental I always thought of Asia as like Tebit and Viet-Nam and Laos and Camobdia

... Now I just dont give a Crap..... Im American and thats that.

:Got Rice??:

[Drad]

I'm a space alien.

[Chowser]

i always check off the box other and write in human on the census

jk,

i normally check the Asian/Pacific Islander box.

my family is from Burma. so would that make me Burmese?

or is the country still called Myanmar nowadays?

on the rare occassions that i write someone a traffic ticket, sometimes i have a hard time figuring out what to put in the race box.

one time, i just could not figure it out, so i walk back up to the guy and ask what race is he?

his mother was half black, half hispanic, his father was half-white, half-chinese, so what does that make him?

i told him, well, i am putting you down as white because you look white.

he was okay with that.

now, my son is half-chinese (burmese, whatever) and the other half is half-white, half-black. my daughter is half-chinese half-white. what would i check off for my son and daughter on the census???

that's why I joke all the time about checking the human box.

i too am an abc, i don't get offended if someone calls me chinese, asian, oriental. whatever, i only generally get racial slurs directed at me when i am arresting someone, so it just rolls off, cause in the end, hey, i'm going home and he's going to jail

[dr_vandermeer]

i only generally get racial slurs directed at me when i am arresting someone, so it just rolls off, cause in the end, hey, i'm going home and he's going to jail 

Also, this reminds me of Dave Chapelles' "Blind White Supremacist" bit.

So freaking funny!!!

Edited May 30, 2004 by dr_vandermeer

[SupremeKaioshin]

"Phillipino"

Spell it right. It's either Pilipino or Filipino.

[skunkobot]

I love this topic.

Apparently black is the in word again, for african-american - which makes sense. A lot of them aren't african.

Oh, and I'm green. Or at least half, my dad's off-the-boat greek. Olive skin, hence green.

And where the hell did this whole caucasian thing come from? Where' all from some mountain range? When did I miss this?

*sigh* I think in the end it's best to go with nationality over race. Problem is if you describe someone as have a deep tan, you think TV anchorman, not black guy. So it's kinda sad really. Half of the racial descriptors focus on appearance, the other half on ethnic origins, and the third half were pulled out of someones derrier.

Oh well.

[KingNor]

sorry for the spelling errors, to my defence, i misspell most of what i type.

i'm glad to see some people have a sence of humor about this type of thing. its so confusing that if you really try to think about it its just really kind of funny.

in my opinion, i'll never be offended by any term made to describe my race, i'm just that proud of who i am. so call me what you want.

i just try not to step on peoples toes.

[Ali Sama]

I am a white asian and proud of it.

[rewooh]

ok, I just looked up Oriental in the dictionary and it does include people. but I've always been taught to use Oriental on the objects of the Orient like furniture, clothes, instruments. Thus, I don't like it when people call me Oriental. I'm Chinese, but if you can't tell, just call me Asian.

and to add, I think it's a very generalized term...almost as bad as calling black people black and all light skinned/brown haired people white, but I don't really mind it.

you got it right on the dot.

The term oriental is a term used to describe the stuff he said up there. Therefore its kinda like calling a black person a "negro".

I don't like being refered to as oriental. If you don't know me, then call me asian, i dont care..but i prefer korean.

I don't usually get mad at stuff like that, unless someone is a jackass about it. for example:

theres a black bartender at my job, and he's pretty much a prick. The first thing he says when i meet is "hey isn't there another 'oriental' person by the name of steve here?" and he also says stuff like "hey steve, come to speak with your 'oritenal' friend right there". So after a few times, i told him that the term oriental is a unpolitically correct statement, and I told him to use the term 'asian' if you were gonna catorgorize people like that.

but one night after work, i wanted to get tipped out from him, so I asked him and told me to 'sit down and help him count the money, since us oritenal's are so good at that." and he went on to mock me and say "oops, I mean "politically correct 'asian" (using the hand gesture and sarcasm)"

SO the moral of the story is: Don't be a cock. No one minds if you make a mistake..but if you're stubborn about it, then thers something wrong.

I mean, i wouldn't sit there and call him a negro or call a white person a redneck or something.

remember, with asians, 'its not one on one, its three on one."

hehe jk.

[Neova]

Oriental = Eurocentric term used to describe people, place and objects EAST of THEM, who are the supposed center of the world at that time.

The Earth is round, the only center is the core.

Preferred "classifications" guidance rules to not get YOU in trouble due to ignorance:

1) Identify by name. Best option out there.

2) Identify by Ethnicity / Country - Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino, Thai, Viet-namese, English, Irish, Scottish, African, Pueto Rica, German, Russian, Yugoslovian, Ukranian, Morrocan, Indian, Pakastani, etc...

3) Identify by Geography of descent - British, American, Latin American, South American, European, Asian if you can't distinguish by #2

4) Identify by locally accepted terms: Black, White, Green, Chupa, whatever is ok locally.

Europeans and many Asians can tell each other apart and usually follow #2. Its not that hard and rarely seems to offend. Americans might have a harder time due to the mixing pot and the vast cultural mix.

At the end of the day, its just simple respect of what others would accept and learning that only helps you in the future.

I stick by rule 2 unless I'm ribbing my Scottish friends by calling them English. British is acceptable though.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Neova

[Max Jenius]

This can get political and turn into a flame war, but you've all behaved very well so far. Lets keep it that way and the thread will stay up.

I have always called black people black people. Even through the "African-American" trend etc. but I've never really given the topic much thought. I just call them whatever name I am most familiar with. I call people in England British, people from Asia Oriental(but I'm slipping softly into asian, its easier on the tongue), Black people, White people, Mexicans, Hispanics, Greeks, Arabs, Australians, Lithuanians. I just don't think that people should walk on eggshells all the time. If you have to suppress yourself, do the people you're trying to impress like the real you? Nope, at least not in my opinion. Being yourself.... now that's funky, funky, fresh. (anyone else catch that reference?)

[JELEINEN]

And where the hell did this whole caucasian thing come from?  Where' all from some mountain range?  When did I miss this?

From what I understand, when the term was coined, it was accepted by anthropologists that that was the geographical area where white people originated. It was supposed that they then migrated from there west into the Middle East and Europe and southeast into the Indian subcontinent. Of course now days, using race as a means to identify people is almost a complete taboo with anthropoligists. Language is what they mostly use now.

Edited May 31, 2004 by JELEINEN

[Pat Payne]

this is confusing because there are alot of other countrys that people don't consider "asian" IN asia. as a ethnic backround it seems odd to call a japanise person asian while a person from inda is just as "asian" in that his entire country is located IN asia.

Personally, I find the whole thing to be useless. "Oriental," from a historical standpoint, didn't just mean Asia, it meant also Middle Eastern/North African, and Greece as well. Alexander the Great (the Macedonian warlord) was considered an "Oriental" potentate, as were Cleopatra of Egypt and the Byzantine Emperors. Further, the Crusader Kings of Jerusalem (circa 1100-1200) were considered "Oriental," even thought they were actually descended from Frankish adventurers who had heeded Urban II's call.

"Asian" has a similar problem. Technically, Europe, Asia and Africa are all the same continent (merely divided into three at the Urals and Suez Canal for historical/ethnographic convinience). Are Russians "European" or "Asian," for instance, as certainly Russia straddles the division between Europe and Asia. What about the Turkish? Or Egyptians?

Me? I just toss this "Asian/Oriental" business and call people by nationalities. Japanese are Japanese, English are English, Russians are Russians, Tahitians are Tahitians, Pottsylvanians are Pottsylvanians (All hail Fearless Leader!).

Other people, on the other hand, describe me with the catch-all nationality of "what the hell is that???"

[Otaku-Smeghead]

Me? I just toss this "Asian/Oriental" business and call people by nationalities. Japanese are Japanese, English are English, Russians are Russians, Tahitians are Tahitians, Pottsylvanians are Pottsylvanians (All hail Fearless Leader!).

Other people, on the other hand, describe me with the catch-all nationality of "what the hell is that???"

You left out the most Perfect Race in exsistence The Chinese... how dare you !!!!!!

(Givs you a Rick James SMACK!!!!!!)

[Graham]

I can't recall the last time (if ever) that I used the term 'Oriental'. To me it sounds outdated & antiquated like it belongs in a turn of the century costume drama

Usually, I'll just refer to Japanese, Chinese, Thais, Koreans, Philipinos etc as Asians or by their respective nationality. If people ask me what is my wife's nationallity, I say she is Hong Kong Chinese.

As someone mentioned back on page 1 of this thread, in UK it is common to refer to Indians and Pakistanis as Asians, but I personally find this a bit weird as in my mind I don't link people from that part of the world as being 'Asian', so I'd refer to them by nationality instead.

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

I've always found "caucasian" to be about as incorrect a term as there is. The Caucas mountains are Cechnya/Kazakhstan/Armenia/Southern Russia. And that's a pretty distinctly different ethnic group than what 99% of people mean when they say "caucasian". I personally am (mainly) German/English/Norwegian. That's utterly not "Caucasian" both geographically and ethnically.

I mean, the Alps would be a way better mountain range to use. But that includes Italy, which is also pretty distinct...

I'm like, "Scandigermanglosaxon". (Which is a pretty darn common combination for "white" from what I can tell---German+English is VERY common)

Edited May 31, 2004 by David Hingtgen

[Gaijin]

I don't care what you call me. Half Chinese, half Japanese here. I think asian is the preferred "PC" term now, but it really just depends on your area...some might get offended, some not. Hell, look at my member name...used to throw people off big time in the Japan chat rooms...they all thought I was caucasian...er...white...er...haole.

[JELEINEN]

I've always found "caucasian" to be about as incorrect a term as there is. The Caucas mountains are Cechnya/Kazakhstan/Armenia/Southern Russia. And that's a pretty distinctly different ethnic group than what 99% of people mean when they say "caucasian". I personally am (mainly) German/English/Norwegian. That's utterly not "Caucasian" both geographically and ethnically.

I mean, the Alps would be a way better mountain range to use. But that includes Italy, which is also pretty distinct...

I'm like, "Scandigermanglosaxon". (Which is a pretty darn common combination for "white" from what I can tell---German+English is VERY common)

But, linguistically, most all of Europe (east and west) is part of the Indo-European family. This indicates a common place of origin. A bit of trivia: Lithuanian is considered the closest modern language to the original Indo-European root language.

And to show why race isn't used and language is, Korean, Japanese, Farsi and Turkish are all part the altaic language family indicating a common place origin. But, by common standards, Koreans/Japanese and Persians/Turks are part of two different races.

[KingNor]

This can get political and turn into a flame war, but you've all behaved very well so far. Lets keep it that way and the thread will stay up.

agreed, feel free to slam this shut if it even starts to look dangerous. good job macrossworld, so rarely do we get PRAISE from the mods

as for the topic.

yeah i'm not paticularly thrilled about the origins of the caucasian term. I tend to just call myself American. it might not describe my appearance that well but it says alot more about me than calling myself "white"

i thought i should tell you guys about my friend, hes a 'white' guy from africa. born, raised till about 15 in South Africa. when he came to america and he started filling out forms naturally, as an american citizen with african origins, he would mark the "african-american" slots.

when he got introuble for being a smart alec in school he was really sad, because hes from africa and american, but he has to label himself "white" he's like, just because i don't have black skin, i'm not considered african.

thought that was intresting.

personally, i like the idea the anthropologists have, clasifying people by what languages they speak makes so much more sence. i have german and other european backround in my blood, but i only speak american english. i consider myself to simply be amercian with no real ties to my ancestrial past.

[Beltane70]

The only thing that I can add to this thread is the fact that my ex-girlfriend was Chinese. If I ever used the term (which I never do) Oriental to describe her, she'd kick my ass....

[Stamen0083]

personally, i like the idea the anthropologists have,  clasifying people by what languages they speak makes so much more sence.

That might present problems. I speak English fluently, as do I Viet-Namese. What am I?

Remember, I speak both in everyday conversations. It's not like either is a foreign language I have learned.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Stamen0083

[Ali Sama]

personally, i like the idea the anthropologists have,  clasifying people by what languages they speak makes so much more sence.

That might present problems. I speak English fluently, as do I Viet-Namese. What am I?

Remember, I speak both in everyday conversations. It's not like either is a foreign language I have learned.

your an amercian. lol.

I speak farsi and english fluently. I undresand hindi and urdu fluently. what does tha tmake me rofl.

[dr_vandermeer]

i thought i should tell you guys about my friend, hes a 'white' guy from africa. born, raised till about 15 in South Africa. when he came to america and he started filling out forms naturally, as an american citizen with african origins, he would mark the "african-american" slots.

when he got introuble for being a smart alec in school he was really sad, because hes from africa and american, but he has to label himself "white" he's like, just because i don't have black skin, i'm not considered african.

That's really unfortunate to hear to me.

Also, I'm intruigued by the idea of anthropologists using languages people speak to classify them. I'm not familiar with it and am wondering how exactly does that work? If you speak Japanese, you are Japanese? I have Chinese friends who speak zero Chinese, only English, so does that make them non-Chinese? What happens with someone who speaks a language (or MULTIPLE languages) totally different from their country of origin?

Again, I personally prefer to call someone whatever THEY prefer. If Tiger Woods wants to be called "Cablanasian", then okay by me. Someone may think it's silly and overly PC, but if it was important enough for him to come up with that term and ask to be called it, then I will respect that.

[EXO]

They should classify everyone by what beer they drink. Yeah, I have a couple of buds. But I like hanging out with the Coronas too. But sometimes you feel like spending time with some Asahis. You know what I mean? The world would be a better place... 'til you run into a Colt45...

[dr_vandermeer]

They should classify everyone by what beer they drink.  Yeah, I have a couple of buds.  But I like hanging out with the Coronas too.  But sometimes you feel like spending time with some Asahis.  You know what I mean?  The world would be a better place... 'til you run into a Colt45...

mmm...Guinness...

Edited May 31, 2004 by dr_vandermeer