Macross Zero # 4 shipped today!

[bsu legato]

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/brontosaurus.html

Er....While that's the story I've heard, I can't say that's the most reliable source. Any web site that contains the phrase

Because Neanderthal and Cro-magnon man both made and wore clothes, it is impossible to put these people in a time before Genesis. Both are true humans descended from Adam. Apes do not feel shamed to cover their bodies (most of which are covered by hair).

gets a thumbs down from me.

(sorry if that's too political/religous, but so-called "creation scientists" really irk me)

[treatment]

get back on topic!

yet-another-M-Zero mecha-fanservice shot. for those that haven't seen ep-4, yet.

[Radd]

(sorry if that's too political/religous, but so-called "creation scientists" really irk me)

I didn't even read that part, I was just looking for a quick source on the Brontosaurus thing. As far as I know, that information at least is accurate.

[Sundown]

You bring up sexual situations with barely teens as the primary focus of your idea of "kiddie porn". At the risk of giving a spoiler, there are no sexual situations in Macross Zero episode 4.

I doubt there's any of the sort in M0 either. My point was only that fixation on barely teens as sexual objects (evidenced elsewhere in anime) remains a fixation on youth and sex, disturbing from where I see things. It actually has little to do with whether sex is appropriate for the actual individuals of that age.

And a bit of counterpoint. Just because some cultures abhor multiple wives, women experiencing any sort of pleasure during the act of sex, sex with those they consider 'minors' despite physical and mental maturity, sex with a partner of another race, or sex with a partner of the same gender, or sex using birth control, does not does not automatically make it unhealthy or unnacceptable to other cultures.

Of course. At least a few of those I'd wholeheartedly agree with-- and at least a few of those are ideas now firmly ingrained into Western culture. The point was that just because it's possible to isolate an idea or standard of behavior as being "Western" or "recent" doesn't mean it doesn't still hold some sort of objective validity, and doesn't mean that it doesn't have value when applied to other cultures. Same goes the other way around, which was why I'd posed that there are likely just as many things "wrong" with our society as seen from another vantage point.

As for whether or not such believes make one ethnocentric, I would argue that you're wrong and saying such things would make one ethnocentric if they were speaking of another culture.

Welp, one can only hold to this unconditionally if they believe that there is indeed no absolute truth, and that all morality and beliefs are purely cultural and purely relativistic. I'm not much of a moral relavist, so this argument doesn't hold much sway over me. Some truths are truths, and some fall into the grey. But for one to say "I believe that this particular issue is abhorrent-- but because you practice this outside of our culture, it's thus perfectly acceptable, and I therefore have no right to speak about this issue as it applies to you-- so go right on ahead, with my hearty applause," one speaks with a intellectual disintegrity that cripples claims on any truths he holds to.

As long as there will be real moralists, there will be those who apply their beliefs onto mankind as a whole. Because real moral truths can never say "This is right. And this is wrong. But only for us. Because it's not really true."

Not to mention that culturally relativistic thinking applies it's own morality steadfastly onto every culture and people-- that of "thou shalt not judge, especially if they are not your own." This is just as much a forcing of one's own belief and morality about judgement upon others as any other form of forced morality.

To see any of this as "right" or "wrong" is an ethnocentric stand, your own cultural beliefs leading you to a moral decision about another culture.

To see any of this is "right" or "wrong" simply means you have an opinion, not that you're necessarily ethnocentric. People do have ideas that tend to be their own, and sometimes is contradictory to what their culture states as acceptable.

And asserting that ethnocentricity, and applying one's values onto other cultures is somehow bad and a thing to be avoided, is itself a somewhat ethnocentric view. It's one held strongly by modern, educated cultures that give emphasis to cultural freedom and allowances for conflicting views. It's actually not one observed or respected by many, many cultures. And it's just as ethnocentric to suggest that one's naughty for measuring another culture with one's own measuring stick, as it is to do the measuring in the first place. At least if one really believes that all moral stands are cultural, societal, and ethnic in nature.

At any rate I think in most societies, however much they diverge, sex with children is considered something to be frowned upon. The issues you bring merely point out at what age one is considered a child. But the fact that there seems to be a line at all in most cultures, and that it varies and people have a hard time agreeing on where it lies (or caring to define it in the first place), points to the fact that sex with children goes a little bit beyond ethnocentricity.

18 is an arbitrary number of course. It's just one that our culture deems a healthy cutoff. That line can move from culture to culture, but the fact that the line exists and does move says that there's something that makes many cultures uneasy about children having sex, especially with decidedly not-children.

To not make a "moral judgement" at all would be the only way to not be ethnocentric. To simply know there's cultural differences that vary from your own, and accept that.

Of course, we're only human.

Precisely. Although making moral judgements is what makes us human. And I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing or a thing to be done away with.

And of course, suggesting that not making moral judgements and not being ethnocentric would be a good thing, would itself be a very moral and very ethnocentric sentiment.

On a side note, when I was in elementary school, they still taught us that the Brontosaurus was a real dinosaur.

It ain't? O_o

-Al

[Sumdumgai]

As you can see from my avatar I like Mao.

Hopefully my DVD will be arriving soon. And If this package gets messed up by DHL, I'll beat their legs with something hard with spikes... Stupid chronopost...

[Blaine23]

Eh... Western culture NEVER, ever, ever makes sexual objects out of young women. I've never seen any barely dressed teens on Euro & US magazines or seen them on TV... or in music videos... or in movies... or, well, everywhere.

Yeah... right. Most models are waaaay under legal age. Any usually very underdressed. Same goes for most our TV, movie, and pop stars.

Western culture only seems to get really offended when young women are sexualized in an animated context.

Seems a weird point to get stuck on, but that's the beauty of America. It doesn't have to make any sense.

[LePoseur]

In my opinion Japan idolizes youth too a most alarming degree. I'm not talking about anime, or pre-teen singers let alone kiddy porn, but in daily life in general. I constantly hear people talk about lossing their youth as if it's the end of life. Every year as part of their work I ask every student (as well as their parents) to rank the decades of their life in order of what their believe will be the happiest ones. The majority pick the two from 0-20 with everything else trailing behind. That wouldn't be as bad if it was just the students (I mean they are all only 18-19 so what else do they know) but by and large, it's the parents as well. Most of them can't believe it then when I show them the data for North America that shows the 30-40 and 40-50 as the most commonly picked years. It's just really depressing to see a a bunch of 19 year-olds convinced that the rest of their lives are just gonna suck.

It's not just that though, there are many more examples that I'd type if I didn't have to catch the bus to work. Crazy I tell ya.

[Sundown]

Eh... Western culture NEVER, ever, ever makes sexual objects out of young women.  I've never seen any barely dressed teens on Euro & US magazines or seen them on TV... or in music videos... or in movies... or, well, everywhere.

Yeah... right.  Most models are waaaay under legal age.  Any usually very underdressed.  Same goes for most our TV, movie, and pop stars.

Western culture only seems to get really offended when young women are sexualized in an animated context.

Seems a weird point to get stuck on, but that's the beauty of America.  It doesn't have to make any sense.

Too damn true. And that's why sexualized borderline youngsters in other cultures remains alarming and disturbing... because their draw is entirely the same as the draw they have in our own. And that's partly why I'm personally a little bit dubious of the "it's okay in their culture" argument on the issue. I venture that the appeal and excitement of "underage" girls has the same resonance within other cultures as it does with us. Or those of us who like that sort of thing.

We just happen to have a sexually legal line that's higher and better defined than most other nations, and other cultures are more permissive of the subject in other forms of media. But anyone who's ever had even a brief glimpse of vaguely purient material that deals with young subjects-- from most any culture-- knows that the emphasis isn't always on the subject's sexual, mental, and emotional maturity. It's often focusing on the still-semi-child aspect.

-Al

Edited June 4, 2004 by Sundown

[Akilae]

People, it's really quite simple... there exists a boundary between being a child and being an adult, it's called puberty, and it spans quite a few years (mentally and physically). There is no magical thin red line that suddenly makes it legal to have sexual intercourse with these young adults. Modern societies have such lines in order to facilitate legal procedings.

I've seen 22 year-olds who are so sexually naive that one would feel guilty simply thinking impure thoughts about them, and I've seen 17 year-olds who understand the full burden that it carries. Interpret that how you may.

In a hopeless effort to get this topic back on track, that is on battered looking valk... what is the mech it seems to have crashed into?

[Radd]

Agreed,

And it's the same Anti-UN Mech seen assaulting the island in the third episode. Octos was it? Or is that the underwater Mech shin fought over the bird-man's head with?

[Graham]

And it's the same Anti-UN Mech seen assaulting the island in the third episode. Octos was it? Or is that the underwater Mech shin fought over the bird-man's head with?

Yes, it's called Octos, although I've also seen it spelt with a double 's' (Octoss).

The underwater mecha that Shin fought with and the mecha that assaulted the beach are one and the same (it's transformable).

Graham

[Black_Viper]

I thought the EP4 was really good. I can't get over how beautiful the CG is.

Can't wait to see the VF1 in all it's CG glory.

[Blaine23]

Anyone found a subbed copy to torrent yet? And if you have... a link?

[Agent ONE]

Anyone found a subbed copy to torrent yet? And if you have... a link?

No, and I'm lookin everywhere.

[Radd]

I'm confident that the moment a torrent is released, it will be posted all over these forums less than 5 minutes later.

[ewilen]

Here is alink that work 4 me Macross O    

Thanks for posting that.

FYI to people with Macs. The version posted earlier in this thread does not work on Macs because it's in a Windows Media Player format that won't even work in the latest WMP for OS X.

This one does work on Macs. I just finished watching it, and although it's unsubbed, it's a feast for the eyes.

[CF18]

AOne-ANBU Zero-4

[Dangard Ace]

I find it interesting that the Anbu size is 234.3MB while the Raw version is 306.3MB. Hope the quality isn't degraded too much.

[UN Spacy]

AOne-ANBU Zero-4

Thanks! Come to me oh hory froating goodness.