Troy

[Agent ONE]

Now that you mention it AgentONE.....

SAILORMOON COMPLEX!

...

I've never seen Sailormoon... Duke Togo told me its like M7 so I would probably hate it.

I don't know what you are talking about.

[Agent ONE]

...

In theory, I suppose they could have made a trilogy, with different characters and different themes emphasized in each picture, but I doubt such a project would have been funded.

Unfortunately, I think everyone would call it a LOTR wannabe... But I would have prefered that.

[EXO]

Part one would have been about Hector, from the point that he had to choose which goddess he should give the golden apple to to the point he steals Helen. (chick flick obviously)

you mean Paris?

LOL... I mean Paris!!!

[Jemstone]

In the movie Patroclus was Achilles' cousin, however in the story it was actually his gay lover.  Would you guys have enjoyed the movie more if Brad Pit were laying naked with that dude?

What's wrong with Pitt lying in bed naked with a dude?

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

Edited May 17, 2004 by Jemstone

[Agent ONE]

...

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

So what you are sayin is, its exactly like M7.

[Jemstone]

...

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

So what you are sayin is, its exactly like M7.

No, I'm not. There are no fruity giant robots with boobs in Sailor Moon. They are not a band and don't have some annoying guy preaching love and peace singing Planet Dance. It's just different albeit aimed to a similar target audience without the mecha.

[Agent ONE]

...

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

So what you are sayin is, its exactly like M7.

No, I'm not. There are no fruity giant robots with boobs in Sailor Moon. They are not a band and don't have some annoying guy preaching love and peace singing Planet Dance. It's just different albeit aimed to a similar target audience without the mecha.

AHHHHHHHHH I see. So not quite as lame as M7. M7 HAS cornered the market on lameness.

[Max Jenius]

...

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

So what you are sayin is, its exactly like M7.

No, I'm not. There are no fruity giant robots with boobs in Sailor Moon. They are not a band and don't have some annoying guy preaching love and peace singing Planet Dance. It's just different albeit aimed to a similar target audience without the mecha.

AHHHHHHHHH I see. So not quite as lame as M7. M7 HAS cornered the market on lameness.

This isn't a thread about Macross 7, its about TROY. Agent One is probably displaying a behavior similar to those homophobes that turn out to be actually gay. He spends to much energy bashing it that it's become an obsession of his and he can't get an erection without the aid of a doorknob and Planet Dance playing in the background.

TROY TROY TROY

[Agent ONE]

...

Oh, Sailor Moon is nothing like Macross 7. You prolly wouldn't like it cuz it's aimed at 12 to 14 year old girls that like "magical super teen girl dramas".

So what you are sayin is, its exactly like M7.

No, I'm not. There are no fruity giant robots with boobs in Sailor Moon. They are not a band and don't have some annoying guy preaching love and peace singing Planet Dance. It's just different albeit aimed to a similar target audience without the mecha.

AHHHHHHHHH I see. So not quite as lame as M7. M7 HAS cornered the market on lameness.

This isn't a thread about Macross 7, its about TROY. Agent One is probably displaying a behavior similar to those homophobes that turn out to be actually gay. He spends to much energy bashing it that it's become an obsession of his and he can't get an erection without the aid of a doorknob and Planet Dance playing in the background.

TROY TROY TROY

[Agent ONE]

...

TROY TROY TROY

Speaking of which, my GF was saying that even in the Illiad there is only an implication that Achilles dies... IE you aren't sure. does anyone have any more specific information?

[ewilen]

Yeah, like I said, he doesn't die in the Iliad. I'm pretty sure, though, that there's a scene where his mother (a minor goddess) tells him that he's going to die, and in any case there's heavy foreshadowing. First of all, the funeral of Patroclus is kind of like him saying, "Boys, when I go, this is how I want it to be." Second, when he has a tete a tete with Priam, the two of them basically agree that life sucks, and the overall theme is mourning for the dead, with a heavy implication that both of them are going to be dead soon enough.

Okay, I looked it up, and in Chapter 18, lines 325ff., Achilles predicts he's going to die. He knows this because he's had a conversation with his mom, Thetis, in lines 52-144.

[GobotFool]

...

TROY TROY TROY

Speaking of which, my GF was saying that even in the Illiad there is only an implication that Achilles dies... IE you aren't sure. does anyone have any more specific information?

Everything after Hector's funeral takes place in works outside of the Illiad, like the Aeneid and a few others I can't for the life of me name off the top of my head.

[Agent ONE]

Yeah, like I said, he doesn't die in the Iliad. I'm pretty sure, though, that there's a scene where his mother (a minor goddess) tells him that he's going to die, and in any case there's heavy foreshadowing. First of all, the funeral of Patroclus is kind of like him saying, "Boys, when I go, this is how I want it to be." Second, when he has a tete a tete with Priam, the two of them basically agree that life sucks, and the overall theme is mourning for the dead, with a heavy implication that both of them are going to be dead soon enough.

Okay, I looked it up, and in Chapter 18, lines 325ff., Achilles predicts he's going to die. He knows this because he's had a conversation with his mom, Thetis, in lines 52-144.

So where is it specifically written that Paris puts an arrow through his heel? I mean I know it was Paris that shot the arrow.

[ewilen]

There's a good chance it's in Ovid (writing about six centuries after Homer), or one of the minor poems of the "Homeric cycle", or alluded to in some other work like Sophocles' Ajax. All of Greek myth was passed down orally, so facts like "Achilles was killed by an arrow in the heel" were well known and didn't necessarily have to be spelled out in a written narrative. Even then, the vast majority of Greco-Roman literature has been lost, so we have to piece the myths together from that scraps that are left over.

Edit: This article has a list of references at the end that could be useful: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles#Memn...ath_of_Achilles

(Interestingly, it states that a lost play by Aeschylus, called Achilles was found last year. But further web searches indicate that classical scholars are pretty skeptical about the news story/press release about the "discovery". Interestingly, there's a Cyprus connection--the discovered play was/is supposed to be performed there for the first time since antiquity.)

I also want to note that since the fragments come from different times, they may represent the myth at different points in its evolution/interpretation. Just as the Achilles/Patroclus relationship only appears explicitly homosexual in literature from a later period than Homer, it may be that at Homer's time, the nature of Achilles' strength, vulnerability, and eventual death may not have been the same as what we get from (say) Ovid.

Edited May 18, 2004 by ewilen

[Uxi]

Interesting thread. I was expecting it to go sideways like the Last Samurai thread did.

The movie was ok. They weren't gonna stay true to the different (and not entirely complimentary) sources out there. Everyone should have known that going in. I woudln't have minded the gods being in there, but it's difficult to do so in a way that people don't laugh. Especially if they see a guy in a Toga throwing lightning bolts.

My only real "beef" is with the ending. I would have liked to see Paris die and Helen back with Menelaus. These are important aspects IMO.

I would have liked to have seen the sense of futility that the long war dragged out, but it'd be difficult to implement in a single movie. On the Greek side, they'd be facing desertion (amidst Achilles tantrums) and on the Trojan you'd see the initial favor towards Helen displaced by animosity and blame.

I think it would have been best to have done a trilogy:

1st Movie, show why the Greeks (particularly Agammemnon) don't like the Trojans more. Have Agammemnon struggling to unify Greece or some such (again no need to stay strictly towards what we know of history... the surviving myths are foggy enough that there's plenty of room to play). I'd say have the Trojans nix a crucial conquest of Agammenon or something only to have it saved (kidna) by Achilles. Towards the middle have Paris go to Sparta and Menelaus decide for peace. Paris and Helen start doing their thing, etc. At the end, she decides to go with him and the war starts. Achilles gets Breisis.

2nd Movie starting with the tag that X years have passed. War is in the meatgrinder phase. Achilles is kicking ass and taking names here and there showing the vicious psychopath he is (he is far too sympathetic in the movie, at least as depicted by Homer). I think it's important they show that the Trojans screw up some of the attempts at peace (breaking the truce, etc), as they do in the Iliad. Have the Achilles and Agammemnon dispute over Breisis and Achilles leaves the war. War starts turning against the Greeks. Death of Patroclus and the return of Achilles to the fight. War edges back to the Greeks. Achilles kills Hector and Troy comes under siege.

3rd movie starting right after the 2nd. The siege of Troy drags on. Achilles should die about half way through the movie IMO. Could be very surprising if implemented right. War looks to bog down into an unbreakable stalemate. Odysseus rises as the main character. Troy is sacked. Scene set for possible Aneid and Odyssey sequels.

OH well they ruined what could have been a franchise (prequel and sequel possibilities abound).

[Isamu Atreides 86]

i saw this one today as well. it was okay enough. the chicks were tight. Helen of course was supposed to be good looking, but so was Briseis and Andromache. i agree with Uxi, Paris should have died, and Helen should have gone back. Plus Agamemnon doesn't die. I did like the inclusion of Aeneas in the story. i think Sean Bean keeps getting shafted. he should play bigger parts in movies.

[GobotFool]

I think Sean Bean keeps getting shafted. he should play bigger parts in movies.

Compleatly agree with you. He has to be one of the most unjustly, underused actors in the industry.