Children's entertainment... Yesterday and Today

[That NOS Guy]

A few of my little boy cousins are into whatever card craze is coming over from Japan (one of the little bastards broke my gendo Ikari glasses ) so as a result I'm the de facto cooler older cousin as I have all the Gundam/Macross kits that they love to play with (theres a reason boxes suddenly fly off my shelves before they arrive).

Sweet mother of Christ, has all imagination and natural aggresiveness been sucked out of these kids? It's scary. I mean, I'm only 19 and I still have fond memories of running home from 2nd grade to watch G.I. Joe (because knowing is half the battle!). I can't stand to watch "kids" TV anymore, it's so weak it's scary.

-NOS

Whose about to crank out some Waffen SS, I mean Armageddon Steel legion figures to paint.

[Akilae]

They DO refer to me as their "aweosme" uncle... Their mother (my sister in law) refers to me as the "bad" uncle... I get them M80s from overseas, got them all brass knuckels,  got them drunk for the first time,  got them all interested in Van Damme movies.  When their parents go out of town sometimes they come and crash with me. I tell them they are allowed to watch any movie as long as there is a high body count, and their mother WOULDN'T approve of it.

lol... every kid outta have an "awesome uncle"... I had an awesome uncle that introduced me to Robotech (hey, this was before I knew what anime was), let me hold his Ka-Bar, Airsoft guns, taught me how to wrestle, Roman style, and also told me the greatest secret of professional wrestlin hey, compared to you old geezers I'm probably already the next generation of wussies. One year out of college. I think I grew up okay.

I think the main thing about today's shows is that they're so brainless... don't stimulate kids to actually THINK for themselves. More than that, they also concentrate on so being well behaved that the individual is almost always more important than the well being of the whole. Think about The A-Team, MacGuyver... both shows taught 1) Brain Power. Okay, granted the A-Team fired off enough bullets each episode to supply a small army, but I was always amazed at how they could turn a jeep and some plating into a full blown tank, or how MacGuyver could save the world with just a paperclip and some duct tape. 2) Going all the way for people in need. MacGuyver was always saving some student in need, and the A-Team always had a weak spot for kids and the underpriveliged.

Even shows like Mr. Roger's Neighborhood always taught proper values and being responsible for your actions. Anybody who broke laws in that mythical kingdom the trolley went to was always punished fairely and justly.

Material comfort plays a large part, as many guys have already mentioned. Cell phones, cars, computers even. All provided by the parents, all paid for. Kids these days sit inside and frag each other in CS, drinking their bottled water. When I was a kid I ran outside, got dirty, and drank from the faucet in the parking lot, heck I even thought the water tasted better than anything else.

Still, the most important part in a kid's development is the adults around him. I remember watching Rambo and the adults around me commented, not on the violence and body count, but about how John Rambo, Vietnam veteran, was just trying to live his own life, got pushed too far, and stood up for himself. Note: he's not "sticking it to the man" or "overthrowing the system". He stood up for himself. THAT was an important lesson. Later on in the movie, more than ever, he trusted the system, and went in for his comrades in II, and saved the Colonel in III. Now tell me that man isn't a role model?

EDIT: Grammar, spelling, etc..

Edited May 3, 2004 by Akilae

[MSW]

Since 1960 the U.S. population has increased 41%

Yeap, and the entire world population more then doubled from 1860 to 1950...more people means more problems

, the gross domestic product has nearly tripled and total social spending by all levels of government has risen from $143.73 billion to $787 billion--more than a fivefold increase. Inflation-adjusted spending on welfare has increased by 630%, spending on education by 225%. But during the same 40-year period there has been a 560% increase in violent crime, a 419% increase in illegitimate births, a quadrupling in divorce rates, a tripling of the percentage of children living in single-parent homes, more than a 200% increase in the teenage suicide rate and a drop of almost 80 points in SAT scores.

In the early days of our country only registered white male land owning citizens were allowed to vote...now if you are a registered citizen over 18, you can vote...even after ajusted for inflation, elections cost many, many times more then they did back then (and people complained about the cost back then too)...

In that 40 year time span many new industires have developed each with associated changes, expansion, and even removal of regulations...in 1960 there were still people liveing in rural areas without electricity (my parents were among them) heck, in some areas of the country indoor plumbing wasn't even common...we have far more roads now then we did back in 1960, we have far more roads to maintain...we have a larger more complex infrastructure to maintain....we even have more houses to deliver mail to...yet still, 40 years ago the adults bitched about kids just as we are today...

Though you may not remember it (or are too young to have been alive) the government charged good old momma Bell with holding a monopoly over the phone industry and ordered her to be sliced up...hence the birth of AT&T, hence the birth of long distance phone service...and the birth of additional regulation and enforcement there of...that costs money folks, and without it you likely wouldn't be enjoying the convience of cell phones or even the internet today

Technically (and sadly) previous generations complaints about the next one have been mostly right. America is in a slow decline and no one seems to be able to stop it.

Hold up right there...grab your history book...and re-read it...America has survived far worse then what kids today can throw at her (formed under an original failed confederacy, the reformation ten years later into a republic under the constitution, the huge influx of generaly uneducated and illiterate imagrants, the growth of slavery, the war of 1812, the attempted succession of the south and resulting civil war, expansion to the west, the freeing of the slaves, the segregation of blacks and whites, the birth of the industrial age, the flocking of former farmers into cities to gain factory work, the birth of organised labor unions, the rise of the KKK, the push for womens right to vote, the birth of ragtime and jazz music, WWI, The automobile replaceing the horse as primary means of transportation, the great depression, Pearl Harbor, WWII, the flocking of city dwellers to the suburbs, the civil rights movement, the switch from B&W to color TV, The Kennedy assasination, race to the moon, vietnam, Nixon's resignation, oil chrisis, 9-11, and much, much more) ...and from day one, no matter how good people had it, they still complained...that hasn't changed ...

Kids today are statistically dumber, lazier and more problematic than the kids that came before them. Now you can argue that society and those in it that would turn a dime from such things are to blame... and they mostly are... for this decline. Why so much useless medicine and prescriptions? Because the pharmacutical companies want your money. Why so many new phobias, mental issues and syndromes? Because people prefer having an excuse as to why they are lazy, stupid, weak willed or fat. Why is little Jimmy flunking out of school with his knocked up jail bait teenage bride? You got me but it sure as hell has nothing to do with cartoons. 

Billy the Kid is an american icon, hero worshiped by many...yet you study the actual history of him, and the origins of the stories about him...well...he isn't quite the noble stand up black and white hero he is often painted as...Not to mention that he lived in a time in America's past when even his actions wern't completely out of place...He was friends with "the wrong crowd", althogh he was quite literate, many of his peers wern't, they survived by stealing horses, getting drunk, whoreing (it's been long rumered that Billy fathered at least one illigitimate child, most of his friends had fathered several)...Billy even broke one of the great and noble chiverlous laws of "Cowboys and Indians" by shooting a man in the back (couple of men actualy)...yet the nation hasn't crumbled from all the moral corruption exibited by Billys generation...hell, he and many of the kids back then would fit right in with the modern gang banger culture!

Are you so sure America is in decline? Do I have to drege up stuff concerning youth during the "roaring twenties" when adults still called kids lazy and unambitious? cause if the adults were right, back in that day, well we would be liveing under Nazi German rule right now :wink:

[Sundown]

its OK to never conform… its OK to rebel against authority…

Though I agree with lots of what you'd said, since when was non-conformity and rebellion "pussy"? =)

And even though I pine for a good cartoon featuring an appropriate amount of ass kickery for both me and my if-ever-offspring, I hardly think teaching kids the ability to compromise, and having them look to it as the first, second, third, and fourth options is going to damage their ability to turn it up a notch when ass kicking is in order. Reality and the first bully to steal their lunch money breaks their rose colored view of the world PDQ. And hey, look on the bright side... the bully's being sedated with the same sort of drivel everyone else is.

-Al

[ewilen]

MSW, most of the advances you bring up are economic advances, while JsArclight is pointing out social decline. I disagree with at least one of his stats, though, and I also wonder about his selection of "inputs"...for example, there could be some very surprising details in his "education spending" stat even if it's correct.

BTW, Js...didn't they larn you in college about quoting from sources without attribution (or quote marks for that matter)?

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/usadecline.html

Further shocking evidence of society's decline!

(J/K, I know better than to rile up a guy who owns guns. )

[MSW]

MSW, most of the advances you bring up are economic advances, while JsArclight is pointing out social decline. I disagree with at least one of his stats, though, and I also wonder about his selection of "inputs"...for example, there could be some very surprising details in his "education spending" stat even if it's correct.

BTW, Js...didn't they larn you in college about quoting from sources without attribution (or quote marks for that matter)?

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/usadecline.html

Further shocking evidence of society's decline!

(J/K, I know better than to rile up a guy who owns guns. )

I got stuck for a moment trying to show the economic transfer from a agricultural society to an industial one, and now largely information basied one...In short I got sidetracked following the money

I don't think the social decline is happening either...there was teen pregnancy even way back in biblical times (but hey, it wasn't uncommon to be married at 15 then either), there were backally abortions being performed in the "rose colored" moral heyday of the 1950's (don't forget the evils spoken about "rock-n-roll"...same was said during the birth of Jazz)...during the early days of the industrial revolution adults thought kids were becomeing stupid and lazy (what they failed to realise is that the adults had largely farming backgrounds, while the kids were learning the ropes within factories...simular examples exist today: kids seem to have natural abilities at programming VCRs, while some adults struggle to do so)

The wild west was quite wild compared to today, it lacked the near instant easily available communication systems we now enjoy, infant mortality rates were quite high, the industrial revolution was in full swing, and you could find a cure for whatever ailes you from the local "snake oil" salesman (not to mention fairly rampent drug use that made the 60's and 70's look conservative

), illigitimate teen prenancies were fairly common as is today, law enforcement out west was fairly lax, or even non existant, the literacy rate was fairly low too...death, murder, abortion, stupidity, lazyness happened then as it does now...course then the "evil" music wasn't rock-n-roll or even Jazz, it was Polka! ...yet, the nation survived, we are still here

anyway folks, there are reasons why prostitution is called "the worlds oldest profession"

[JsARCLIGHT]

BTW, Js...didn't they larn you in college about quoting from sources without attribution (or quote marks for that matter)?

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/usadecline.html

Sorry, I wasn't aware that I was writing a research paper here. Quoting sources on the internet IMHO is not usually needed unless people ask you for your sourses as most everyone does what you did: finds it for themselves.

(J/K, I know better than to rile up a guy who owns guns. )

Actually it is funny you bring that up. To take MSW's lead back in the '20s and '30s everyone was packing heat. Why was society so polite and well mannered back then? Because you had no clue who was carrying a weapon and they would shoot you in the face let alone tollerate your assinine shenanigans. Society back then was not the raucus rampage like MSW is making it out, it was actually very orderly and cordial. "Billy the Kid", AKA William Bonnie was a wanted felon, murderer and outlaw. Comparing him to "kids" (12 to 14 year olds) of today's generation is like me comparing men of today to Ghengis Khan, Machine gun Kelly or Jack the Ripper. You have to compare apples to apples. Children and teens of the 1800's were very well mannered, they did their chores, minded their parents and did what society asked of them... mainly because there was not a lot to do other than that. It should also be noted that "kids" back then were not really kids. Children worked jobs back then, some even had families and supported them. The age a person was still considered a "child" then was very very low. Just one look at Civil War rosters and you will see many people we would call "children" today in the army. Even more "children" working in factories and mills. Back then kids did not get the "glowing childhood" they have today, they were born, had a few years to learn something and then were expected to get to work like the rest of us.

[bandit29]

Meh, I watch the old shows that I used to back in the day and they really are stupid.

You're just gettin older.

No man, it aint that way... When I was 6 I was watching Transformers, Macross, and GI JOE... Now 6 year olds watch Pokemon, U-G-oh, and the Winkies. Super sissy.

I'm not so sure if having Optimus Prime or GI Joe as role models actually made boys into more well socially adapted males or manly men. My personal experience is that every guy I met who still is a Transformers or GI Joe fan is either :

A) living in their parents basement

B) afraid of women

C) a virgin

D) all of the above lol

[Blaine23]

There are a million types of personality in adults and children. Everybody has different interests and everybody has different strengths. No cartoon or anything else is gonna make your kid a sissy, even if he never has the opportunity to play with dumb stuff like throwing stars and M-80's.

Give a kid a rock and he'll figure out a way to make another kid cry with it.

You guys are so concerned about wussier children - I'm much more concerned with having dumber children. When I have one I'm going to be far more concerned with his ability to read, write, and communicate intelligently than I am with what cartoon hero he idolizes.

Basically bad parenting causes bad behavior in children, like JSA's pointed out. If you want better kids, spend time with them and raise them to be the type of person you want them to be.

[J A Dare]

No man, it aint that way... When I was 6 I was watching Transformers, Macross, and GI JOE... Now 6 year olds watch Pokemon, U-G-oh, and the Winkies.  Super sissy.

I would have figured you as a HE-MAN fan?

[Impreszive]

Hear Hear Blaine!

I agree that the major problem is bad parenting or lack of parenting in children's behavior. I'm constantly amazed by parents who let their children run amok and feel that it is someone else's problem for their messes.

[Agent ONE]

No man, it aint that way... When I was 6 I was watching Transformers, Macross, and GI JOE... Now 6 year olds watch Pokemon, U-G-oh, and the Winkies.  Super sissy.

I would have figured you as a HE-MAN fan?

Actually no. Thought the plot was lame and episodic, besides he is huge and all, but (another compalint of mine having to do with children's entertainment) the show was filled with unrealistic physiques. I mean he just kind of looked strange, besides my Sister had this Skipper doll that had the same haircut as HE-MAN. Just kept me from caring about it.

[Blaine23]

Is it just me or is Ram-Man gazing at that buff moron more than little too lustfully?

[Agent ONE]

Is it just me or is Ram-Man gazing at that buff moron more than little too lustfully?

No, I would say its a little fruity, but that show was too lame to have sexual overtones. I put even M7 above that.

[mechaninac]

The way I see it, the silly, neutered programming being peddled to kids today, is not a cause but a symptom of the politically correct days we live in. We live in a time when, specially but not exclusively, public schools, are no longer places of learning the basics necessary to proceed to gainful employment or higher education; but are viewed by far too many parents as a convenient place to baby sit their kids, and by higher echelon educators as a venue for social experimentation and mass feminization of faculty and students. There is, today, a cult of self-esteem that permeates education which dictates that equality of outcomes trumps individual achievement. Thus, we get social promotion regardless of ability or knowledge of class material (we can't hold the little darling back, that would affect his/her psyche), codling of egos (you're special in everything you do), abolition of the recognition of excellence such as dean's list or vale dictorian (wouldn't want others to feel left out, would we?), elimination of score keeping in sports (In order for there to be a winner, there has to be a loser, we can't have that!), deletion or rewriting of "controversial" historical events (so that everyone feels included, even if they weren't); it goes on and on. A good example was the big brouhaha in NYC where the Mayor wanted to institute a policy of achievement testing for promotion to 4th grade; there were numerous parents and teachers protesting this as unfair and impugning the test as racist, as if reading English in an English speaking country is racist. Or the farce of ADD/ADHD whereupon parents would rather drug their kids than to parent them.

Kids are not being thought to think for themselves, they are being taught to conform to an artificial utopian, egalitarian ideal that has no bearing in reality where they come out of school thinking that government is the solution to all of life's obstructions, everybody should have the same amount of stuff, good and evil are relative, having an opinion is bad, being discriminating and judgmental is to be frowned upon, all cultures are equal regardless of how they treat their own or others...an entire generation of bed wetters.

Life's a b***h, deal with it or get the f**k out of the way!.

[Jemstone]

It's taken me days to review this topic. While I agree with the premise something kept disturbing me. It just hit me what bothers me with this topic.

1) Since when did we look to television and the media as a whole as some kind of guidance for our children? So what if kids are watching Tinky Winky playing wink wink with Po on the Teletubbies? Now I don't care for the Teletubbies and could careless how many kids watch it, hate Barney as much as anyone else with common sense but do some of you believe children (and your own for that matter) need actual role models from television shows? I find that insane. I liked the live action Wonder Woman as a child but Lynda Carter was hardly my role model. My own parents that taught me how to stand up for myself and also look out for myself are and always will be my role models. Sure it was cool to pretend to be a member of GI Joe and She-Ra every once in a while but even then I never thought of them as role models. I can't fathom a make believe character being a role model.

2) The term "pussification of the media". I've heard it alot but I don't think I REALLY need to explain why this offends me like nothing else on this web site. I would prefer people try much harder to leave my genitals out of their problems with the media. Don't even bother with it being a metaphor becaus eit's just inaccurate on so many levels I don't want to go there you DEFINATELY don't want me to go there.

Edited May 3, 2004 by Jemstone

[Max Jenius]

yeah, transformers is great

http://www.iupload.net/042004/transformers-sex.gif

[MSW]

Actually it is funny you bring that up. To take MSW's lead back in the '20s and '30s everyone was packing heat. Why was society so polite and well mannered back then? Because you had no clue who was carrying a weapon and they would shoot you in the face let alone tollerate your assinine shenanigans. Society back then was not the raucus rampage like MSW is making it out, it was actually very orderly and cordial. "Billy the Kid", AKA William Bonnie was a wanted felon, murderer and outlaw. Comparing him to "kids" (12 to 14 year olds) of today's generation is like me comparing men of today to Ghengis Khan, Machine gun Kelly or Jack the Ripper. You have to compare apples to apples.

By 14 William Bonnie was already a thief, associated with prostitutes, had killed a man, and fled Arizona for New Mexico...he had yet to become involved in the infamous "Lincoln County War", he had yet to become the infamous outlaw...he was not alone in all this either as he associated with other murders and thieves, some as young as he was...William Bonnie stood out from this group of hooligans because he was nice, polite, and well mannered...not because he was the meanest, cruelest of the lot...

Children and teens of the 1800's were very well mannered, they did their chores, minded their parents and did what society asked of them... mainly because there was not a lot to do other than that.

If society and it's children back then were so nice, pleasant, polite, well mannered, and well armed then how could such a society produce Billy the Kid and his band of unruley associates?

It should also be noted that "kids" back then were not really kids. Children worked jobs back then, some even had families and supported them. The age a person was still considered a "child" then was very very low. Just one look at Civil War rosters and you will see many people we would call "children" today in the army. Even more "children" working in factories and mills. Back then kids did not get the "glowing childhood" they have today, they were born, had a few years to learn something and then were expected to get to work like the rest of us.

Yep, and it didn't stop any of them from becomeing murderers, wife beaters, child molesters, lazy lowlifes, thieves, and a host of other examples of societal ills...just like the modern "glowing childhood" won't stop kids now from eventualy doing the same

Take off the rose colored glasses and head off to your local library, give a read through the newspapers in the archives...see what society was dealing with back then, what problems it faced, what issues it had to sort through...

A example of this (now largely forgotten):

http://library.thinkquest.org/2986/index.html

This happened within three miles of where I type this...Notice the kids in the lynching picture...notice the "yellow journalisam" of the time playing upon peoples fears...notice it was a lie, inorder to cover an affair that started all this...Notice that the rioting crowd wished to take justice into thier own hands (might this have been because they feared the justice system wasn't working?)...notice too how history has a way of overlooking such incidents (how many here on this board honestly knew this even happened?)

[Jolly Rogers]

yeah, transformers is great

http://www.iupload.net/042004/transformers-sex.gif

[ewilen]

MSW & JsArclight, your debate is starting to just become a collection of anecdotes. If you want to generalize about societal change (or nonchange) convincingly, I'd suggest a different methodology. Statistics would be great, if they're available far enough back. But they can also be deceptive, as with the SAT stat, due to differences in what was being measured (the SAT-taking population has expanded greatly over the years) or reporting errors (illegitimate births may have been more likely to be hushed up in 1960). Also note that the stats JsArclight quoted are just snapshots from 1960 and 1990--which gives the impression of a consistent change in one direction when a graph might show significant peaks and valleys. And what if you extended the graph beyond those limits? Bennett does give a few more datapoints in the appendix to the article, but what he couldn't have known at the time was that illegitimacy was levelling off in the 90's and violent crime was declining sharply.

Besides, even if a trend is indisputable, the cause of the trend is much harder to pin down. Bennett cites his stats to support his claim that moral decline has led to social decline; AgentONE on the other hand is complaining about lack of manly action cartoons. Somehow I think that A1 and Bennett don't see eye to eye on a lot of moral issues, and in any case--correlation does not prove causation unless you're dealing with a controlled experiment.

A side note: JsArclight I know you weren't writing an academic paper. I was just needling you. I regret the guns comment, though, because I'm afraid that could easily send this topic spiralling out of control.

[JsARCLIGHT]

I'm not sure where you are trying to take your points, MSW. What you keep talking about is human nature and not in any way special to the past, present or future... man or boy alike. Taking one or two hideous examples out of days past in no way makes them "a sign of the times" and taking one or two of histories worst criminal children does not indicate that everyone from that period was like that or that that era did something to create them. If that is your argument applied to modern times then using that logic we can then look at modern incidents were two high school kids shot up Collumbine and killed several people... are they indicative of all modern youth? Are they then technically worse than Billy the Kid? In one day they killed more people and caused more mayhem than in all of William's short life. Remember that drug barron 12 year old that got killed in a drive by back in the early '90s? He was a drug lord at age 12, ruled blocks of inner city streets and made more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime. Then look at the recent incidents of children killing children that everyone forgets so quickly. Gang wars, hazing deaths, school shootings you name it. As for race riots we have those even today, remember the whole Rodney King mess? The random factor of violence is always present in any human being of any age of any time. Due to our nation's exploding population we are all now packed closer together and thus crime and violence will happen more often and with worse results.

The point of my argument is that despite having much better education, cushy homes filled with rich luxuries and having almost all of their needs met modern children are still not living up to the achievements of the past generations. Wellfare and poverty are rising fast, debt is out of control, divorce is through the roof and drugs are everywhere (both legal and illegal). To me, that means modern kids are growing up unable to cope with the world and are falling apart in less violent ways. Their lives are washing out and they seem fine with that... or they are in the other camp that demands everything be handed to them on a silver platter because that is the way mommie and daddie raised them. Kids today are more vulgar, more rude, more arrogant and greedier than my generation ever was and from my point of view. The ones with bad parents are mindless consumers, driven by a need to fill their lives with things to replace the love they did not get. TV told them so.

Edit: I'm going to back out of this thread because it is no longer about what Agent One wanted it to be about. We are debating semantics of time and era at this point rather than the influence of cartoons on children.

Edited May 3, 2004 by JsARCLIGHT

[Agent ONE]

Actually ewilen, I am really happy that this thread has been as under controll as it is. I think members just feel strongly on the issue.

[MSW]

ewilen - Yes, I agree...stats can be quite troublesome, especialy when dealing with areas or time periods that never bothered to record them accuritly, if at all.

However history shows that when tensions rise, people tend to worry, that worry can become fear, and that fear can be abused by others seeking power...On a small scale it happend here with the race riot I posted about...On a larger scale it happened in Germany under Hitlers rule...calm down, things arn't as bad as they seem...be rational, don't act on your fears until you can be certain they are well founded...don't take the TV, radio, newspaper's words at first glance...investigate things yourself.

[MSW]

The point of my argument is that despite having much better education, cushy homes filled with rich luxuries and having almost all of their needs met modern children are still not living up to the achievements of the past generations.

how so?

Wellfare and poverty are rising fast, debt is out of control, divorce is through the roof and drugs are everywhere (both legal and illegal).

Ah...So 6 year olds are applying for welfare? 6 year olds have credit cards? 6 year olds are getting divorced? 6 year olds are getting busted for drug trafficing?

To me, that means modern kids are growing up unable to cope with the world and are falling apart in less violent ways.

To me that indicates kids aren't the problem...it's the adults, our generation and previous ones, that seems to have trouble copeing...

There has always been poverty, and in a capitolistic economy there always will be poverty...if the "poverty level" were lowered the poverty rate would be lower too...if it were rasied, the rate goes up...

Debt has been out of control in some way or other sence the concept was first invented...

The devorce rate has been greatly exagerated...the per capita rate is around 48%...what that means is that for every group of eligable people 48% of them statisticly have been divorced...marrage requires two people, and when they get divorced both of these people are counted seperately...meaning the actual divorce rate is HALF of 48%...

Drugs have been a problem sense time imortal...crack houses are just the modern version of the old opient dens from long ago...if it's not modern drugs affecting kids, it was candy and sweets, or any number of things that were bad for kids...

Their lives are washing out and they seem fine with that... or they are in the other camp that demands everything be handed to them on a silver platter because that is the way mommie and daddie raised them.

How many tantrums did you throw when mommy and daddy wouldn't buy you those transformer toys years ago?...kids are still kids...still growing up in a world that they yet have little control over...spoiled brats and appathetic snots were around long before your great, great, great grandparents were born...

Kids today are more vulgar, more rude, more arrogant and greedier than my generation ever was and from my point of view.  The ones with bad parents are mindless consumers, driven by a need to fill their lives with things to replace the love they did not get. TV told them so.

Both kids and adults during Shakespears time could be just as bad, if not worse...funny how the peanut gallery didn't result in the downfall of England...

kids are still kids...nothing has changed about that...they will grow and adapt just like you and I have, just like our parents, and thier parents have...so what if they don't always meet your expectation now...It's not as if we always meet our parents expectations either (or they measured up to thiers, and so on)..so set the best example that you can, and remember even we didn't believe our parents were right all the time either...just let them have the space to find thier own path, and before you know it they will be bitching and moaning about the next generation to follow them

[Commander McBride]

I'm even closer to the generation you guys are talking about. I was just a bit too late for GI-Joe, Transformers, and the like. My generation, I guess, was the Ninja Turtles, and very little else that was violent in any way. I remember very early episodes of Barney as a little kid. Oddly enough, I thought it was crap even back then.

You can't blame TV for the wussification of kids, though. Not only was I exposed to leigons of the crap, my parents tried to push me into being a "sensitive" wussy. So it's odd that, while my peers were being "sensitive" and whatever, I was sneaking down to Chinatown to spend my allowance on knives! And, unlike most people my age, as soon as I turn 18, I'm heading over to the gun store and putting down the 300 for an SKS.

But, on the other hand, I'm a major exception compared to my peers. I guess the system worked on most of them. They preform admiraly at their job of conforming to society and doing whatever their parents, teachers, and classmates say they should. The real question is whether this phenomenon is a result of TV. I'd say it isn't. I'd actually say the wussification of TV is a result of the wussification of society in general.

You older members should really consider yourselves lucky. You grew up in a different era, where men, to some extent, were still allowed to be men, instead of the girls with pricks we're being pushed into being now. Look at how villified guns are today. 20 years ago, you could teach your kid to shoot. Now, guns are an evil tantamount to teaching your kids to operate the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Hence, why my SKS will probably be the first gun I ever shoot in my life.

By the way....has anyone here ever actually seen the Teletubbies? Some of the most disturbing crap I've ever seen. It's no wonder kids are doing drugs at such a young age, they're being bombarded with a simulated acid trip from the time they're babies.

Edited May 4, 2004 by Commander McBride

[ewilen]

MSW, you missed at least half of the point I was trying to make. Yes, stats can be troublesome, but anecdotes and airy generalizations are next to useless.

(Besides, if it were done properly, the debate that you're trying to have with JsArclight would be way off-topic for this forum.)

[Sundown]

The devorce rate has been greatly exagerated...the per capita rate is around 48%...what that means is that for every group of eligable people 48% of them statisticly have been divorced...marrage requires two people, and when they get divorced both of these people are counted seperately...meaning the actual divorce rate is HALF of 48%...

You sure about this? Seems that 48% of eligible people being divorced would still mean a 48% divorce rate (or higher, given multiple marriages between divorcees).

Even if the number of divorced people is twice the number of actual divorces, that doesn't change the rate of failed marriages. Unless you're counting divorcees versus successful marriages, which wouldn't make much sense.

In case I'm being confusing...

Population of 20, all married or have been.

10 are divorcees. 10 are still in their first marriage.

That's at least 10 marriages that have occurred, 5 failed, and 5 successful.

If we consider multiple marriages amongst the 10 divorcees, the number of failed marriages actually goes up. Counting the divorcees separately against the entire population (also counted separately) doesn't change the divorce rate, less I'm missing something.

*scratches head*

-Al

EDIT: for spelling.

Edited May 4, 2004 by Sundown

[treatment]

I have a few young nephews, when they hang out with their awesome Uncle Agent ONE we talk about all kinds of stuff, but mostly what kind of media they are surrounding themselves with.  As these kids have grown up I have attempted to keep track of their favorite shows and characters they like.  These kids of course like to pick one or two role model/favorites from these shows which makes sense, after all they are kids (It IS mostly the 6 to 14 age group I am referring to) I am sure you guys all make the same comparisons, I mean WE (Most MW’ers) probably wanted to grow up to be someone with a personality and presence like Major Focker, or Optimus Prime, or Lieutenant Falcon, or General Flag, or Wolverine… You get the idea.

The disturbing trend is back in our day of children’s programming we had featured characters with aggressiveness, pride, resilience, drive, ambition, and UNSTOPABLE determination, but even more importantly they were tough.  They didn’t take crap from anyone.  They also were featured in programming that was realistic in the respect of human nature. People are by nature selfish and that selfishness can, at times, turn into evil.  Our heroes weren’t just fighting with the main enemy in the show; they were fighting against the easy of doing things, fighting against the path of least resistance.  After all isn’t it easier to watch someone rob a bank, than to attempt to kick some ass and stop the robbery, this is the attitude OUR heroes were doing battle with.

The trend since we were kids has been one of featuring heroes (if I must call them that) who are just worthless weaklings who promote taking the easy way out… I am not saying ALL of the shows follow this path, but most do… I don’t know all the names but just a few, Pokemon, Barney, Teletubies, Winkies, U-Gi-OH, and I even put Macross 7 in this category.  Plot-lines are unrealistic and peace and dancing while holding hands is ALWAYS the way things end, which is teaching a lesson of fantasy, NOT reality… No one is ever confrontational, there is no real problem solving, and everything is a compromise, as much as we would like to believe that is a real reflection on life, it isn’t… Nothing in life is a compromise; there are those who take and those who get ripped off, that’s life.

There is nothing but accepting those who don’t quite fit in with their peers, so they are allowed to be strange… What the fu(k.  These kids are going to grow up to be the biggest pussies ever, they won’t be able to cope with general human interpersonal issues because they have been bombarded with the message, ‘its OK to be weak… its OK to not confront… its OK to never address my fears… its OK to never conform… its OK to rebel against authority…  Qualities that make even Bugs and Daffy look like Arnold.

As a marketer and a person that exists in this society in one way I can’t wait till these kids come up in the corporate ranks… they will be my fodder, my kill, my prey.  WE will be the LAST tough generation…

Though this thread COULD take a political turn, I don’t want it to… Keep your politics to PM if you must say something of that nature.

It's a little more severe than just "pussification" via lame television cartoon-programs.

Before, we kids can actually play outside without supervision. We get to compete (sports, fights, etc, etc) against other kids in the neighborhood and others, without our parents getting involved or them knowing anything about it at all. The last thing any kid would want is to get his parents knowing about stuff that happened in the playground that's mainly all normal kids-stuff.

We didn't have access to guns and stuff when we were young. In contrast, seems like the last 10-15 years, most kids have rather easy access to guns and other lethal weapons.

It's both quite sad and terrifying to be a kid nowadays. Parental and community over-protection. Access to lethal weapons. 24-hour cartoon-channels that's mostly lame toy-pushers and doesn't promote any character and stuff. Yes, we had lame cartoons (jem, care bears, etc, etc) back when we were young, too, but we know exactly who watched those lame-shows and we call 'em at it. It was a pretty good and necessary attrition.

Nowadays, the cartoons are still lame, but it's pretty much on 24/7. They're not just lame, but some of them are pretty much tasteless. Pretty much every kid watches them and there's no distinguishing between kids anymore. They all watch the same lame safe toy-pusher cartoons of this age.

Oh, well.

Kids will be kids. But I guess we just need to take care of the lame parents and lame adults for making this kind of world now. The parents are pretty much robbing the kids their kid-ness by being over-protective and some such. The lame adults are pretty much the reasons why parents are way too over-protective now.

fwiw, remember Saturday Morning Cartoons in our youth? I'm finding the current late-nite Adult-Swim to be exactly what we know of SMC. Too bad, kids are not allowed to watch late-nite Adult-Swim shows, or Adult-Swim not being shown during the mornings.

Edited May 4, 2004 by treatment

[Opus]

I don't think kids today are so much "pussies" as they are misguided and lazy. Why risk losin a fist fight when you can shoot the other guy and guarantee victory. The real problem I see with kids is that they're too confident. It's the parents fault for not properly teaching thier kids manners. I was in Target yesterday and a woman was trying to leave the store but her kid kept whining about candy and she was tring to negotiate with the kid. That just teaches them that if they make a big enough stink they can get thier way. I would have never even dreamed of such behavior in public as my mom would have smacked me stupid. I'm all for ass whippin's but what it basically comes down to is that however others want to raise thier kids is really none of my business. Everyone thinks that they know best so I wouldn't presume tell you how to live your life just as I wouldn't want anyone to do the same to me.

[MSW]

MSW, you missed at least half of the point I was trying to make. Yes, stats can be troublesome, but anecdotes and airy generalizations are next to useless.

(Besides, if it were done properly, the debate that you're trying to have with JsArclight would be way off-topic for this forum.)

No, I got it...the whole point of Agent One starting this thread was that TV (specificly cartoons) have been contributeing to children's problems....and much of this thread, many of the postings, have been pointing fingers at other issues from parenting to whatever...thats great and all that, if we were all of the same mind, and looking for answers...However, I don't agree with the core issue...I don't think anything is wrong with kids these days.

Sorry I don't have stats to back up my claims, and can only offer anecdotes and airy generalisations...beyond that the only evidence I can show to support my viewpoint is the thread itself...

Read through the postings here...Agent One and others seem to think kids are all becomeing inactive pushover "pussies", JsArclight and others seem to think kids are far more rude, greedy, arrogant, and vulger then ever before...So...which of these two greatly oversimplified (and next to useless) generalisations is it?

[Blaine23]

No, I got it...the whole point of Agent One starting this thread was that TV (specificly cartoons) have been contributeing to children's problems....and much of this thread, many of the postings, have been pointing fingers at other issues from parenting to whatever...thats great and all that, if we were all of the same mind, and looking for answers...However, I don't agree with the core issue...I don't think anything is wrong with kids these days.

Sorry I don't have stats to back up my claims, and can only offer anecdotes and airy generalisations...beyond that the only evidence I can show to support my viewpoint is the thread itself...

Read through the postings here...Agent One and others seem to think kids are all becomeing inactive pushover "pussies", JsArclight and others seem to think kids are far more rude, greedy, arrogant, and vulger then ever before...So...which of these two greatly oversimplified (and next to useless) generalisations is it?

I can actually agree with you almost completely MSW...

I disregard the media and entertainment angle that's been made.

But I would ask if you think that the rise of two working parent and single working parent homes has had any effect on the kids of the last 50 or so years. Even in the frontier when Billy the Kid was idolized, you didn't have kids essentially raising themselves.

Basically, I think that's what's missing from this debate. It's not that the media is raising our kids poorly, but that the media shouldn't be raising our kids at all. Entertainment should be just entertainment, not babysitting or pseudo-education.

That, IMO, has a serious effect on behavior, intelligence, work ethic, morals, etc.

[ewilen]

Good response, MSW. Seriously!

It was just that you seemed to be repeating yourself at length in your debate with JsArclight. Your last post makes your point quite well. Really, all we can hope for here is an airing of opinions.

[MSW]

Yeah, I was wrong about the divoce rate thing...left out a decimal point, and used old numbers

  Federal data show that divorce remains a common American experience despite having statistically fallen to 1972 levels.

    In 2003, for instance, the divorce rate was 3.9 divorces per 1,000 people. This is down slightly from the 4.0 rate in 2001 and 2002, according to the National Center for Health Statistics.

    The 2003 rate is a heartening decline from the peak divorce rate of 5.3 divorces per 1,000 people in 1981. However, it is still far above the average divorce rate of 2.6 divorces per 1,000 people during the 30 years between 1940 and 1970.

source: http://washingtontimes.com/specialreport/2...11626-9566r.htm

EDIT: ewilen, Sorry about this particular post....I'm picking at straws again Sorry 'bout that...I'll leave it here for the curious though

Edited May 4, 2004 by MSW

[Sundown]

Read through the postings here...Agent One and others seem to think kids are all becomeing inactive pushover "pussies", JsArclight and others seem to think kids are far more rude, greedy, arrogant, and vulger then ever before...So...which of these two greatly oversimplified (and next to useless) generalisations is it?

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be vulgar, greedy, and rude... and still be an inactive pushover who's not willing to stand or fight for much of anything, except for the right to be greedy, vulgar, and rude.

-Al

[Agent ONE]

Read through the postings here...Agent One and others seem to think kids are all becomeing inactive pushover "pussies", JsArclight and others seem to think kids are far more rude, greedy, arrogant, and vulger then ever before...So...which of these two greatly oversimplified (and next to useless) generalisations is it?

The two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be vulgar, greedy, and rude... and still be an inactive pushover who's not willing to stand or fight for much of anything, except for the right to be greedy, vulgar, and rude.

-Al

So true, in fact the CEO of the company I work for fits that description.